Sotha Sil NAPC Part VII

Kartalin

usmcjdking wrote: »

Malibulove wrote: »

This is a bizarre discussion, most people just run around and pvp without all the weird politics.

The argument doesn't even make sense in the context of Sotha. I'm on most mornings and small groups play for Ulty dumps just as hard as any of the guilds do, afterall why would you want to be in a group if you weren't coordinating?

Don't get me wrong I can respect that say B-Team runs 6-8 instead of LoM running 20-24, but when you're solo and the entire group is ulty dumping... it's the exact same flippin' tactic.

I personally like my strategy. Try to help pugs not get farmed...

But then get farmed because the pugs got farmed anyways.

A noble goal but also an uphill battle.

StaticWave

Vilestride wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I and my friend Jaisins 2v8 a dc group today, one of the few things large scalers won’t be able to do

Unless you know the skill levels/experience/gear/circumstances of the players involved that kind of statement is meaningless. i.e. A few weeks back, I along with another DC player wiped a 12 man EP group. We both prefer large scale PVP, so does that make us just as good as skilled small scalers and your statement wrong? Or is my statement meaningless and indicative of nothing without further information about the players we were up against?

...

Both sides are trying to compare apple and oranges here. Each style of PVP has it's own unique skills that are intrinsic to that style of play. So trying to claim one is superior than the other is pointless. It's like trying to argue who is the superior athlete: The 100m runner, the middle distance runner or the long distance runner. They all involve running, they all compete in the same stadium, and you can make a case for all of them being superior. But the argument is just as pointless because at the end of the day they are all different disciplines, that require similar but different skill sets in order to excel.

The notion that a player can't be good at (or enjoy) more than one style of PVP is equally as nonsensical. Why not? What exactly is stopping someone who is good at large scale PVP also being good at small scale or solo PVP (or vice versa)? If anything the non-cp campaign encourages players to try out and (hopefully) become good at more than one discipline, because it is so easy to go from a build set up for large scale play to a build set up for small scale or solo play. In many cases you literally only have to change gear sets and swap some skills, rather than have to respec anything.

This.

StaticWave wrote: »

my friend @jaysins and I had a successful 2v8 vs a DC group today, one of the few things large scalers won’t be able to do

You keep talking about ratio's but then not applying them. Here for example, yes, large scale raids often fight and win 12 v 48. And again, you saying loosing one guy in 12 man is less than loosing 1 guy in a 4 man. Yes that statement is correct, but your ratio is not, loosing 1 guy in a 4 man is equivalent to loosing 3 people in a 12 man, see what I am saying? And seeing how the number of enemies you fight in large groups scales in the same way, yes, it's equally as detrimental to loose those members.

Like I said, I don't think anyone here is trying to quash small scale, simply offer equal legitimacy to both sides of the conversation. I came in here, saw large group getting nothing but bashed and wanted to offer my thoughts, I'm not here to say small scale is bad, I am here to make the same point @esotoon did.

You can't fight a 48 man group without cp. It's just not possible. Remember this is a non cp thread. I never said you couldn't use the same ratio for large scale. I specifically stated that there is more room for error because large scale groups has more numbers. 1/4 vs 3/12 is the same ratio. But what about 1/12? 2/12? The bigger your group, the more room for error you can have. If your group is good enough, you might only lose 1-2 players vs a 30+ man group.

StaticWave

esotoon wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I and my friend Jaisins 2v8 a dc group today, one of the few things large scalers won’t be able to do

Unless you know the skill levels/experience/gear/circumstances of the players involved that kind of statement is meaningless. i.e. A few weeks back, I along with another DC player wiped a 12 man EP group. We both prefer large scale PVP, so does that make us just as good as skilled small scalers and your statement wrong? Or is my statement meaningless and indicative of nothing without further information about the players we were up against?

...

Both sides are trying to compare apple and oranges here. Each style of PVP has it's own unique skills that are intrinsic to that style of play. So trying to claim one is superior than the other is pointless. It's like trying to argue who is the superior athlete: The 100m runner, the middle distance runner or the long distance runner. They all involve running, they all compete in the same stadium, and you can make a case for all of them being superior. But the argument is just as pointless because at the end of the day they are all different disciplines, that require similar but different skill sets in order to excel.

The notion that a player can't be good at (or enjoy) more than one style of PVP is equally as nonsensical. Why not? What exactly is stopping someone who is good at large scale PVP also being good at small scale or solo PVP (or vice versa)? If anything the non-cp campaign encourages players to try out and (hopefully) become good at more than one discipline, because it is so easy to go from a build set up for large scale play to a build set up for small scale or solo play. In many cases you literally only have to change gear sets and swap some skills, rather than have to respec anything.

I'm not trying to name and shame, but those players are from a DC guild that's plays in Shor. Sure, you and a DC wiped a 12 man group, that's good for you. Now show me how many other large scalers can do that? Your skills won't make up for the skills of other players.

I'm not saying you can't play large scale. If you tried small scale and ultimately liked large scale better, then more power to you. I'm just stating that the less numbers you have in your group, the faster you improve your overall skills, just like @Taylor_MB said. Solo and small scaling is the best way to improve your skills, because you have less people to rely on. Your mistakes will catch up to you much faster

Sylphie

Malibulove wrote: »

This is a bizarre discussion, most people just run around and pvp without all the weird politics.

The argument doesn't even make sense in the context of Sotha. I'm on most mornings and small groups play for Ulty dumps just as hard as any of the guilds do, afterall why would you want to be in a group if you weren't coordinating?

Don't get me wrong I can respect that say B-Team runs 6-8 instead of LoM running 20-24, but when you're solo and the entire group is ulty dumping... it's the exact same flippin' tactic.

lolwut how did the B-Team get brought up in this? When I was with the B-Team, it was mostly just Passifest and I. The only time we got larger than 4 was during the weekend when we merged groups with Heals For Beer and even then we are still outnumbered.

I really hope you're not complaining about the B-Team outnumbering people when DR's 8-12 man has zerged my duo/tri down multiple times in the past.

Feanor

I recently created my first NA char to check out the better drama . Is Sotha Sil always dominated by AD? Seemed to be so yesterday, but obviously I’m on in US off hours only...

A_G_G_R_O

Don’t worry @Sylphie you guys are prolly the last small scalers left in sotha, soon you will be blamed for everything.

A_G_G_R_O

Feanor wrote: »

I recently created my first NA char to check out the better drama . Is Sotha Sil always dominated by AD? Seemed to be so yesterday, but obviously I’m on in US off hours only...

AD pug hordes.

DeadlyRecluse

Feanor wrote: »

I recently created my first NA char to check out the better drama . Is Sotha Sil always dominated by AD? Seemed to be so yesterday, but obviously I’m on in US off hours only...

For the past month and a half, yes. Previously it was DC in the latenight/morning, and pretty balanced during primetime.

Zander98

I've personally been playing solo 70% of the time since the IC DLC came out. I've watched and played the game closely since beta.
The "large scale" vs "small scale" argument has been going on since then.
The only thing I have to add...
While most of your arguments are on point Josh, there was a time in this game....the first year and a half or so...that there were full raid PVP guilds that ran as skilled and talented as the top small scale groups today.
It's an older game. Think of how hard it is to have a guild of 6 skilled players you know will be out in gyro for 6 hours everyday. At this point in the games life it's near impossible.
At one time the number of dedicated PVPers with skill, build creativity and an understanding of game mechanics was legion. There WAS at one time in this game full 24 mans, each individually skilled enough to 1v1, running with the practiced precision of an elite small man, utilizing terrain, ability synergies and were beautiful to watch.
And, what made it even more beautiful was there were 24 mans on other factions just as skilled and practiced. So the competition, strategy, individual talent needed, etc....can only be felt and understood currently in the game by small scale players currently.
That was when the game was new. Many of the players from such groups broke off as one player or another from their guild could no longer be as dedicated to the game for understandable reasons, and turned to smaller scale squads of friends were you could actually form units of dedicated daily players. And since then many of those players have quit and those they trained kept it going.
If your argument now Josh is partially that small scale is superior skillwise to full raid play, I would say as a matter of numbers that is inarguable. I don't even know if each faction had 24 such players at the moment that play a 4 year old game with that level of dedication to field.
But I will say....there was a time when it wasn't like that. And don't let the large cyro raid groups today make you think that is the vistas such play style can reach.
Even the Dinosaurs still around.....like TM. And I am not trying to put TM down in any way....in fact I think most members of their guild would agree...
They are a different beast now than in the early hyper competitive days. If they were able to field the raid they ran with mid 1.6, as practiced and dedicated as they were at the time, I think even you would have been amazed at the art and skill large group play had at one time in the game.
That being said....the game....she's old. If you can get 6 really good players together for a few hours now it is a rare accomplishment. There just isn't the same numbers of top level (some could call obsessive) players left in the game for large scale to be what it once was.
Which means many elite players see the choices as running in a full raid with some fairly weak links in the chain, run with a small group of similarly skilled friends, or just say forget and play solo.
Not to imply that all solo players are elite. A few (like myself) solo due to unpopularity and hygiene issues.
Just had to say, to newer players, large scale was once a different animal entirely.

mike.eso

Zane...you’re a dinosaur

A_G_G_R_O

SO @Zander98 you are saying currently, smallscale groups and playstyle / solo is superior to the large destro earthgore train carried raid styles in today's CURRENT atmosphere....

DeadlyRecluse

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

SO @Zander98 you are saying currently, smallscale groups and playstyle / solo is superior to the large destro earthgore train carried raid styles in today's CURRENT atmosphere....

That's what several people whose arguments you are dismissing are saying. 99 percent of large groups today are trash depending on garbage mechanics to win. 2 years ago, that was not the case.

At the moment, I'd say true "large scale" guilds (24 on the regular) are casual messes. MOST medium scale (say 8-20 or whatever, idgaf) are pretty casual. A FEW medium scale guilds are serious, dangerous, well-oiled machines.

Small scale guilds--in the current moment--tend to be more serious about the game overall--that's a pretty low bar, when the average large group invites people from zone on their ability to type 1-5 letters in order. That says more about the decline of the game's overall population, the systematic dismantling of fun large scale mechanics (compared to the destroball meta) and the change in AP gain has wrought. It does not mean that small scale is INTRINSICALLY superior. Zane is pretty much spot on. The serious large scale left a while ago.

Nobody--well, maybe like 1 person--in this discussion has claimed "X in Zone" groups or the sloppy pugzergs (which again, are all that has zerged sotha or azuras for the past 9 months or so) is a playstyle worthy of emulation.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

Also if you want to field an 8v8 Drac GvG message me @AGG.RO.
Since I issued the challenge i’ll Set the rule. If that is too low of a number, then decline it.
Don’t bring my attendance or unwillingness to fight into it, Our guild will hit any group in open world regardless, I am just trying to compare apples to apples as you would say.

Ok so we conclude that you are unable to truely match us even with us already lowering numbers to 12.
For a player so confident that large scale guilds are such poor players you seem very hesitant to fight us on equal footing (large scale to large scale)

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

jaysins wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

jaysins wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

I would say by definition GvGs are organized fights between 8v8 and 24v24 simply because that's what guild groups would comprise. The fact that if a guild only had 4-6 ppl in it and even with 50% subs meaning rosters of 6-9 they still would not even have a guild tabard unlocked I simply can't count those as 'guild vs guild' fights and they would be better off being hosted by a dueling in a tournament style than as a GvG. I'm sure we would be more than happy to fight you in a 12v12 but I doubt you will agree to that citing zerging or something.

A 12v12 would be difficult to do for us because of how few of us there are and getting that many online at the same time is pretty rare. We would have to most likely recruit outside the guild. However, an 8v8 would be much more manageable and fit your stated definition of a GvG so no problems there, so let us know. Also, your answer when he was asking for a 4v4 doesn't make sense because, and maybe you don't know this, but BGs are actually 4v4v4 and not what AGGRO said he was looking for. Just an FYI

I'm back in around 2 weeks hopefully by then you will overcome this difficulty to be able to field 12. We can discuss rules nearer the time.
If you challenge a guild to gvg you should be prepared and able to fight them not expect them to come fight you.
Hope you guys don't disappoint in your attendance always enjoy a fun true gvg fight.

When im back Saturday is best for us can add me @Solar_Breeze

That's just a cop out and a tactic used to try and avoid us. He stated that he thought a GvG is 8v8 or more and I'm fine with and agreed to the 8v8 number. If we say we want to do a GvG but you throw us a number that you know is more than the size of our guild it just shows you don't have enough confidence in your guild and group to go against us in a video game so you've already started making excuses. You can easily down size your group, much easier than we can find new people to play with and bring them up to speed in such a manner to really test which play-style creates better players, and it's a number that will be pretty unfamiliar to both sides. If you want to run from a fair fight be my guest, but if you need to make excuses or back down because you're afraid of losing at a video game you might be taking it too seriously.

I have no clue who you are. What size your guild is or even when you play. You're the ones calling our name you know our guild and group sizes.

According to the posts here large scale is such an easy mode I'm sure players of such caliber(?) As yourselves will have no problem competing.

A_G_G_R_O

Deleted due to multiple warnings.

A_G_G_R_O

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

For a player so confident that large scale guilds are such poor players you seem very hesitant to fight us on equal footing (large scale to large scale)

This is precisely what you are doing, not wanting to fight on equal footing. Again, I set the limit based on how many I run in my guild and to make it as you say Even, accept or refuse and stop dodging. Message me in game @AGG.RO or you can ask Josh, Jaisins, or Kita. We are derailing sotha thread as of currently this will be my last post on the matter.

Adenoma

It's a weird thing to challenge someone to a fight, them be explicit about conditions, and then refusing to meet those. I mean, you all asked Drac to fight and if you're intent on proving yourselves better then fight on their terms. Right now it just seems like you're trying to pick a fight with some weaker iteration of the group. If you're going to fight them might as well actually fight them.

EdmundTowers

A lot of good points were brought up and I would like to see the results of a GvG betweeen good small scalers and a good coordinated group raid with even numbers on both sides. However, bringing down the coordinated raids' numbers down to the small scalers does not prove the point of the argument here. The claim was that small scalers are the superior players and that if they could match the numbers of the coordinated raid, they would win.

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

If I could make a 24 man group of the best small scalers, they would literally murder any coordinated pugtato guild. Why? Because beta soft potatoes hide in their numbers and the excuse of "HUE HUE im running a group build bro". I am just ....

no
no
no

I cannot support any of this preposterous garbage. Other than how hard is must be to lead a zerg group due to the nature of cringey remarks of "get packed up" uttered by these beta zerglings.

Joshlenoir wrote: »

Adenoma wrote: »

Also, if you small scale wipe zerg squad or Drac with your skills then you'll have my vote that you small scalers are superior.

yes because 6 people are going to wipe 24 (edited for sarcasm)
I'm talking about a strong 6 man group wiping 10-12 people, it happens a lot.
Expecting a handful of players to wipe a full raid of players is not only delusional but is twisting my words as that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying small scalers are better players because of the environment that they play in, and when it comes to a fight that involves SIMILAR numbers they will usually always win, as well as being outnumbered (depending on how large of course). If these FACTS are something you refuse to comprehend that's on you.

You should at least make the attempt to recruit and try to match the coordinated raids' numbers. Here, I don't know who these guys are but they look like a small scale guild and are looking for a fight:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/380590/animosity-challenges-any-ad-dc-pc-na-guild-to-a-4v4#latest
Maybe try asking them to team up with you and then recruit some skilled streamers or something and make that GvG happen.

jaysins

Both sides were calling each other out and both sides were claiming the better and more challenging play-style that produces better players so it's up to both sides to try and find equal footing in order to test this out. Eight players is a good size group and falls in between small scaling and raid size. We would really like the chance to see who pulls out ahead and will do our best to meet your conditions if we can. However, if you are going to make conditions that you know our guild can't accommodate, like numbers we just don't have, then you're just dodging plain and simple. If your large scale style is better and you're better organized then an 8v8 should be very doable. Just don't hide behind fabricated excuses as if we could get that many of us online I'd be willing to do a 12v12. Neither side should be expected to bring outside players in as that will dilute the results as they don't have a history playing with said groups and it's not a true testament to how good the guild, and preferred play-style of the guild, builds up their players and teaches them to be good at fighting in this game. So instead of going back and forth, are we going to do a 8v8 or are you declining our challenge.

Adenoma

I mean, don't you want to prove that you're better? Just fight them under their conditions.

StaticWave

Solo pvp reduced to 3 minutes.

https://youtu.be/20q8rBO7Am0

StaticWave

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

Also if you want to field an 8v8 Drac GvG message me @AGG.RO.
Since I issued the challenge i’ll Set the rule. If that is too low of a number, then decline it.
Don’t bring my attendance or unwillingness to fight into it, Our guild will hit any group in open world regardless, I am just trying to compare apples to apples as you would say.

Ok so we conclude that you are unable to truely match us even with us already lowering numbers to 12.
For a player so confident that large scale guilds are such poor players you seem very hesitant to fight us on equal footing (large scale to large scale)

We are a small scale guild... that means we usually run 2 up to 5, and occasionally 8. We literally do not have enough people to run a 12 man group. If your guild was so confident in your players why would you not drop the number to match ours since we literally can’t/don’t have the numbers to match yours.
OR, we can 8v12 you.

StaticWave

EdmundTowers wrote: »

A lot of good points were brought up and I would like to see the results of a GvG betweeen good small scalers and a good coordinated group raid with even numbers on both sides. However, bringing down the coordinated raids' numbers down to the small scalers does not prove the point of the argument here. The claim was that small scalers are the superior players and that if they could match the numbers of the coordinated raid, they would win.

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

If I could make a 24 man group of the best small scalers, they would literally murder any coordinated pugtato guild. Why? Because beta soft potatoes hide in their numbers and the excuse of "HUE HUE im running a group build bro". I am just ....

no
no
no

I cannot support any of this preposterous garbage. Other than how hard is must be to lead a zerg group due to the nature of cringey remarks of "get packed up" uttered by these beta zerglings.

Joshlenoir wrote: »

Adenoma wrote: »

Also, if you small scale wipe zerg squad or Drac with your skills then you'll have my vote that you small scalers are superior.

yes because 6 people are going to wipe 24 (edited for sarcasm)
I'm talking about a strong 6 man group wiping 10-12 people, it happens a lot.
Expecting a handful of players to wipe a full raid of players is not only delusional but is twisting my words as that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying small scalers are better players because of the environment that they play in, and when it comes to a fight that involves SIMILAR numbers they will usually always win, as well as being outnumbered (depending on how large of course). If these FACTS are something you refuse to comprehend that's on you.

You should at least make the attempt to recruit and try to match the coordinated raids' numbers. Here, I don't know who these guys are but they look like a small scale guild and are looking for a fight:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/380590/animosity-challenges-any-ad-dc-pc-na-guild-to-a-4v4#latest
Maybe try asking them to team up with you and then recruit some skilled streamers or something and make that GvG happen.

Animosity is a small scale guild that occasionally runs up to 8-10 players on. It has on of the best players in the game, and arguably the best ep guild in vivec.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

StaticWave wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I and my friend Jaisins 2v8 a dc group today, one of the few things large scalers won’t be able to do

Unless you know the skill levels/experience/gear/circumstances of the players involved that kind of statement is meaningless. i.e. A few weeks back, I along with another DC player wiped a 12 man EP group. We both prefer large scale PVP, so does that make us just as good as skilled small scalers and your statement wrong? Or is my statement meaningless and indicative of nothing without further information about the players we were up against?

...

Both sides are trying to compare apple and oranges here. Each style of PVP has it's own unique skills that are intrinsic to that style of play. So trying to claim one is superior than the other is pointless. It's like trying to argue who is the superior athlete: The 100m runner, the middle distance runner or the long distance runner. They all involve running, they all compete in the same stadium, and you can make a case for all of them being superior. But the argument is just as pointless because at the end of the day they are all different disciplines, that require similar but different skill sets in order to excel.

The notion that a player can't be good at (or enjoy) more than one style of PVP is equally as nonsensical. Why not? What exactly is stopping someone who is good at large scale PVP also being good at small scale or solo PVP (or vice versa)? If anything the non-cp campaign encourages players to try out and (hopefully) become good at more than one discipline, because it is so easy to go from a build set up for large scale play to a build set up for small scale or solo play. In many cases you literally only have to change gear sets and swap some skills, rather than have to respec anything.

This.

StaticWave wrote: »

my friend @jaysins and I had a successful 2v8 vs a DC group today, one of the few things large scalers won’t be able to do

You keep talking about ratio's but then not applying them. Here for example, yes, large scale raids often fight and win 12 v 48. And again, you saying loosing one guy in 12 man is less than loosing 1 guy in a 4 man. Yes that statement is correct, but your ratio is not, loosing 1 guy in a 4 man is equivalent to loosing 3 people in a 12 man, see what I am saying? And seeing how the number of enemies you fight in large groups scales in the same way, yes, it's equally as detrimental to loose those members.

Like I said, I don't think anyone here is trying to quash small scale, simply offer equal legitimacy to both sides of the conversation. I came in here, saw large group getting nothing but bashed and wanted to offer my thoughts, I'm not here to say small scale is bad, I am here to make the same point @esotoon did.

You can't fight a 48 man group without cp. It's just not possible.

You haven't played largescale pvp it's clear. No CP is easier than CP in that style check ZS videos if you don't believe it. We regularly play no CP eu. Where there is actual population and guilds to fight not just fresh recruits ready to be 1vx'd
Siege is the only difficulty on no CP but that's mitigated by build and setup

Adenoma

@StaticWave , you could make 4 friends and then try to fight drac,

Mihael

Adenoma wrote: »

@StaticWave , you could make 4 friends and then try to fight drac,

They usually play 4-5 and they are willing to go to 8 people why can’t drac just lower their numbers from 12 to 8? Looks to me like they are too scared

(Opinion based on what I’ve seen posted on this thread)

Adenoma

Eh, I more want to see the small group players run against Drac when they're at their best. All this talk of mindless potatoes it shouldn't be awful to find four potatoes to even the ranks.

usmcjdking

The purpose of calling someone out is to fight them at their zenith to prove that you are unequivocably better. You cannot do that and demand that they intentionally weaken themselves. It defeats the point of calling them out to fight to begin with.

Adenoma

Agree x100. What's the point of fighting a lesser iteration if Drac if you're trying to prove yourselves better. I feel like this is especially true given the statements that zergs are no skill, etc. and that small scale is full of superior players.

Kartalin

Adenoma wrote: »

Eh, I more want to see the small group players run against Drac when they're at their best. All this talk of mindless potatoes it shouldn't be awful to find four potatoes to even the ranks.

Potatoes are a key problem when fighting Drac though, and why we try to engage them without pugs. One of those potatoes dies and suddenly you’re dealing with a vicious death proc.