Battlegrounds: Dead on Arrival?

CatchMeTrolling

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Warden will suck and people will take to the forums en masse to rage at ZOS that the reason they purchased Morrowind was for the new class, and they want a full refund and all devs fired immediately.

Then Scipio will take to the forums and make fun of all those complaining.

It's a combination of things that will put Warden in a great spot, not to mention they have every good buff in the game plus tools built in for infinite sustain. Don't see how anyone can't see why theyll be over the top.

Stam sorcs class wise don't stand out on paper BUT when you throw everything together plus theorycrafting the class comes out on top. Warden will be no different when it comes out.

RebornV3x

No - BGs are DOA

BGS are already dead on arrival no restrictions on having multiple classes everyone in the group should have to be a different class also not making it required for the group to have a 2 dps, 1 tank, 1 healer setup is dumb without these 2 things BGS will undoubtedly be an unbalanced cancerous mess no thanks I'm steering clear of BGS it's a cool idea rip tho.

I understand that at the end of the day none of the above will completely stop cancer and cheese groups but it better than doing nothing at all and just allowing it to happen.

Alpheu5

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

RebornV3x wrote: »

BGS are already dead on arrival no restrictions on having multiple classes everyone in the group should have to be a different class also not making it required for the group to have a 2 dps, 1 tank, 1 healer setup is dumb without these 2 things BGS will undoubtedly be an unbalanced cancerous mess no thanks I'm steering clear of BGS it's a cool idea rip tho.

I understand that at the end of the day none of the above will completely stop cancer and cheese groups but it better than doing nothing at all and just allowing it to happen.

When was the last time you used the group finder? DDs tag themselves as healers and tanks all the time to get faster queue-ins. I definitely agree that the teams shouldn't have duplicate classes, Battle Spot style.

paulsimonps

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Everyone keeps using the terms Cancer and cheese. Could someone give me good definition on those to terms in regards to this context? As objective as possible would be best, but I know a lot of it is subjective as well, but try. Cause at this point, everything is cheese and cancer for some people.

timidobserver

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

CyrusArya wrote: »

I also disagree that there is a force fed meta. 4 tanks dps specs will have a real hard time even being a threat to the teams I plan to run with.

Without CP you are right that tanks will be manageable. With CP, I think there are some builds and group comps, like 2dk + 2temps with the temps guarded, that could completely stalemate a team death match. I've seen that comp tank an impressive amount of people in Cyrodiil.

Publius_Scipio

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Warden will suck and people will take to the forums en masse to rage at ZOS that the reason they purchased Morrowind was for the new class, and they want a full refund and all devs fired immediately.

Then Scipio will take to the forums and make fun of all those complaining.

It's a combination of things that will put Warden in a great spot, not to mention they have every good buff in the game plus tools built in for infinite sustain. Don't see how anyone can't see why theyll be over the top.

Stam sorcs class wise don't stand out on paper BUT when you throw everything together plus theorycrafying the class comes out on top. Warden will be no different when it comes out.

Well that is true for any class. But lets not forget that way back when, the father of stam sorcs, Fengrush, was a successful stam sorc when maybe five other people in all of ESO dared touch or even "waste" time thinking about that class. Fengrush pleaded with the aedra Wrobel for something, anything to help his kind bring the fight to the enemy. He was handed a used toothbrush and a pool noodle. And we all know that Fengrush took that toothbrush and that pool noodle and cut through the enemies before him and etched his name in the annals of time.

Then longgggggg after the legend of Fengrush was established, an angry, misguided, young man with violent tendencies by the name of Dubzug came on to the stam sorc scene. ONLY AFTER AEDRA WROBEL ACTUALLY GAVE STAM SORCS SERIOUS FIREPOWER. And so somewhere between studying for college exams, working, and playing drums in the marching band (in honor of Nick Canon) Dubzug dumped 317 hours of theorycrafting into the stam sorc class, birthing what many of us remember as the "op stam sorc era". An era which itself has ended at the time of this writing.

"I've done the tell"

https://youtu.be/vJ1KZvzXpKI

Stamden

The problem is Magplars. Stack a few Magplars in a group, and they are unkillable.

Drakkdjinn

A troll poll to the greater live ESO population asking opinions on something that hasn't seen the light of day for anyone whose voted. Please zone; please.

NightbladeMechanics

Alpheu5 wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

BGS are already dead on arrival no restrictions on having multiple classes everyone in the group should have to be a different class also not making it required for the group to have a 2 dps, 1 tank, 1 healer setup is dumb without these 2 things BGS will undoubtedly be an unbalanced cancerous mess no thanks I'm steering clear of BGS it's a cool idea rip tho.

I understand that at the end of the day none of the above will completely stop cancer and cheese groups but it better than doing nothing at all and just allowing it to happen.

When was the last time you used the group finder? DDs tag themselves as healers and tanks all the time to get faster queue-ins. I definitely agree that the teams shouldn't have duplicate classes, Battle Spot style.

Hey now, I will tank your pledges and heal all three other people simultaneously while wearing light armor and doing a full dps rotation.

Jitterbug

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Awesome for me.
Obviously not for everyone. Nothing in the game is for everyone. Except Bumnog.

They will be what battlegrounds always are and those that like it (like me) will like it.
I don't even foresee a major dip in Cyrodiil population, there will still be plenty of people who'll prefer AvA.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Not that they might not be dead in the water. I just haven't formed a definitive opinion yet. The matchmaking and queue systems will greatly impact their success as well.

If there is ANY way to cheese the matchmaking system, so that two teams that know eachother, can fight an unaware team, then I will have to say DOA. If ZOS has given some thought to blind matchmaking and has some way to prevent cheesing the queue, then this has a chance.

I don't know if they need to go so far as to mask names of players in the Arena but I know some prominent players in PvP that refuse to fight other prominent players on opposite faction due to some false sense of professional courtesy.

Imagine 3 teams. Team one has a highly recognizable streamer on the team. Team 2 has a hardcore "elite" player that knows that streams. Team three is nameless pugs.

Do you really think that match is really going to be an unbiased three way fight?

Publius_Scipio

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Not that they might not be dead in the water. I just haven't formed a definitive opinion yet. The matchmaking and queue systems will greatly impact their success as well.

If there is ANY way to cheese the matchmaking system, so that two teams that know eachother, can fight an unaware team, then I will have to say DOA. If ZOS has given some thought to blind matchmaking and has some way to prevent cheesing the queue, then this has a chance.

I don't know if they need to go so far as to mask names of players in the Arena but I know some prominent players in PvP that refuse to fight other prominent players on opposite faction due to some false sense of professional courtesy.

Imagine 3 teams. Team one has a highly recognizable streamer on the team. Team 2 has a hardcore "elite" player that knows that streams. Team three is nameless pugs.

Do you really think that match is really going to be an unbiased three way fight?

Is this fake news like you told me in zone the other night?

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Not that they might not be dead in the water. I just haven't formed a definitive opinion yet. The matchmaking and queue systems will greatly impact their success as well.

If there is ANY way to cheese the matchmaking system, so that two teams that know eachother, can fight an unaware team, then I will have to say DOA. If ZOS has given some thought to blind matchmaking and has some way to prevent cheesing the queue, then this has a chance.

I don't know if they need to go so far as to mask names of players in the Arena but I know some prominent players in PvP that refuse to fight other prominent players on opposite faction due to some false sense of professional courtesy.

Imagine 3 teams. Team one has a highly recognizable streamer on the team. Team 2 has a hardcore "elite" player that knows that streams. Team three is nameless pugs.

Do you really think that match is really going to be an unbiased three way fight?

Is this fake news like you told me in zone the other night?

Kind of hard to create fake news in the future but I can try.

Magus

Battlegrounds will be pretty hot at release, lots of people trying it out, so big population pool to work with. Once everyone gets the gear / loot they are looking for, or get smashed a few times too many, the population for it will decline. Once the elites get bored, the population will decline, and queues will be longer. Will it still be a nice change of pace and fun thing to do every once in a while? Yep.

Will there be 4 man pre-mades made up of stamplars and stamsorcs with troll king/fury/bone pirate/throne drink? Absolutely. Will they 4v1 coordinated targets - 4 dawnbreakers on one healer? Yep. Will they win quite spectacularly? Yep. Will they get bored of this? Yep. At best, it's a 4v8 for them, quite easy odds. Especially, if they smash their competition too easily, they will return to Cyrodiil so they can fight more outnumbered odds for a bigger challenge, or they will be playing a different game. The best thing that can happen is for the elites to not get butthurt about fighting other elites, especially in the battlegrounds. In Cyrodiil, elites avoid each other but in battlegrounds they won't be able to. If they only pick on the third group, then it will really suck for that third group. The other thing elites can do is to queue random and not always do pre-mades only. Randoms will make it a bigger challenge. So advice would be to just have fun with it, don't be a tryhard with your uber optimized stam builds doing a 4v8 vs randoms not even wearing purple armor or enchantments on their jewelry. Yes, there will be templars guarding templars, proc sets everywhere, it will be a complete mess. But it should still be fun.

Magus

I'll also add remember there is an another actual human being on the other side of the monitor you are fighting against. If they aren't having fun, guess what? Pretty soon you will have no one to fight against. Get wrecked, exposed, L2P baddies, etc. Yes you will have a few fun highlight videos smashing some pugs but don't be disrespectful and a sore winner afterwards. You will run out of players to play against and then when you hit queue, guess what? It will never pop for you.

NightbladeMechanics

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Not that they might not be dead in the water. I just haven't formed a definitive opinion yet. The matchmaking and queue systems will greatly impact their success as well.

If there is ANY way to cheese the matchmaking system, so that two teams that know eachother, can fight an unaware team, then I will have to say DOA. If ZOS has given some thought to blind matchmaking and has some way to prevent cheesing the queue, then this has a chance.

I don't know if they need to go so far as to mask names of players in the Arena but I know some prominent players in PvP that refuse to fight other prominent players on opposite faction due to some false sense of professional courtesy.

Imagine 3 teams. Team one has a highly recognizable streamer on the team. Team 2 has a hardcore "elite" player that knows that streams. Team three is nameless pugs.

Do you really think that match is really going to be an unbiased three way fight?

I agree with your first paragraph, although I would expect ZOS to fix any loopholes allowing for such exploitation.

I would also expect ZOS to implement a report system like in MOBAs where players can report others who grief, rage, afk, or throw fights. Then players who accumulate reports can be banned from battlegrounds.

But most prominent/good players are competitive, will be forming battlegrounds teams to win, and actually love to fight each other, just not in open world where the fights aren't controlled and a zerg could roll through. Open world fights are considered sloppy, uncontrolled, and therefore uncompetitive. Why even bother with them? Most of us are looking forward to controlled competition in battlegrounds though.

I hope that sheds some insight.

Edit: We've had wildly popular public competition between prominent players in Legend and Mighty dueling guilds, K-Hole's GvG's events, and player-made battlegrounds within Mighty and Inner Fire. Players also gather for private, controlled fights all the time. I foresee official battlegrounds being even more popular than all of those things if ZOS implements them well.

NBrookus

Rickter wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

If you think battlegrounds will fail because there will be groups better than yours... well, that's kinda the whole point. You don't get to bring more numbers, you have to bring better play. Or better tactics. Or better builds. Or better team composition.

come on man, dont turn this into a L2P elitist post. The issue isnt what's "better" or whats not. the issue is that your idea of "better play, better builds" etc is forcing people to emulate what the other groups are running and you end up with very few variety meta cookie cutter builds.

You were the one that brought up "bring more people" as a strategy to win over small scalers:

Rickter wrote: »

so in Cyrodiil overworld, these "premades" are relegated to "small scale" groups and gankers. you can combat this by running in a larger group (for the most part) in BGs there is no countermeasure.

Trust me, I don't put myself in elite category, but I do prefer smaller engagements. When you are trying to get some fair fights and keep getting zerged, a straight up 4v4v4 on battlegrounds sounds mighty good. The possibility of getting double-teamed is just spice.

Maybe BG's will suck. But if not being able to bring superior numbers to win doesn't sound like fun to you, don't play them. Stop trying to *** in our cornflakes before we even get to try them out.

DoccEff

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

OP you sound like you want BGs to be awful. Why can't people just look forward to it? And why start spreading negativity two whole months before launch?

Lexxypwns

No - BGs are DOA

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Warden will suck and people will take to the forums en masse to rage at ZOS that the reason they purchased Morrowind was for the new class, and they want a full refund and all devs fired immediately.

Then Scipio will take to the forums and make fun of all those complaining.

It's a combination of things that will put Warden in a great spot, not to mention they have every good buff in the game plus tools built in for infinite sustain. Don't see how anyone can't see why theyll be over the top.

Stam sorcs class wise don't stand out on paper BUT when you throw everything together plus theorycrafting the class comes out on top. Warden will be no different when it comes out.

Based upon what we've seen I'm left thinking a few things.

Where's the burst? Infinite sustaining buff machine sounds OP and all, but you've gotta get kills.

Where's the reliable CC? Its not there

I'm just saying, regardless of what you think you see in the warden skill line, its got weaknesses. Mag warden seems to be lacking good burst and has no useful offensive ult or reliable CC. Its gonna be like 1.6 magplar, with more group utility and less damage, but now there's no proxy det to supplement your burst against 1 or 2 people.

CatchMeTrolling

Lexxypwns wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Warden will suck and people will take to the forums en masse to rage at ZOS that the reason they purchased Morrowind was for the new class, and they want a full refund and all devs fired immediately.

Then Scipio will take to the forums and make fun of all those complaining.

It's a combination of things that will put Warden in a great spot, not to mention they have every good buff in the game plus tools built in for infinite sustain. Don't see how anyone can't see why theyll be over the top.

Stam sorcs class wise don't stand out on paper BUT when you throw everything together plus theorycrafting the class comes out on top. Warden will be no different when it comes out.

Based upon what we've seen I'm left thinking a few things.

Where's the burst? Infinite sustaining buff machine sounds OP and all, but you've gotta get kills.

Where's the reliable CC? Its not there

I'm just saying, regardless of what you think you see in the warden skill line, its got weaknesses. Mag warden seems to be lacking good burst and has no useful offensive ult or reliable CC. Its gonna be like 1.6 magplar, with more group utility and less damage, but now there's no proxy det to supplement your burst against 1 or 2 people.

What makes you think they won't have damage? Again look at stam sorcs skill line in terms of damage, look at stam dk as well nothing really stands out but you can't say they don't have damage when you fully build them up. And I'm mostly talking about the stam version and they have a cc too but if it's reliable is yet to be found out.

The magic version seems to be more group oriented, I'm sure they'll be up there with magplars when it comes to group play.

Earthewen

No - BGs are DOA

paulsimonps wrote: »

Everyone keeps using the terms Cancer and cheese. Could someone give me good definition on those to terms in regards to this context? As objective as possible would be best, but I know a lot of it is subjective as well, but try. Cause at this point, everything is cheese and cancer for some people.

Cancer is something that you don't want your doctor to say or it is part of the zodiac in the heavens. Here, not in Tamriel. Cheese is something you put inside a grilled sandwich or even better, you bake some Brie on a plate with a little pesto and olive oil. throw in some flat bread and some roasted almonds and who need supper?

Vitaely

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Earthewen wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Everyone keeps using the terms Cancer and cheese. Could someone give me good definition on those to terms in regards to this context? As objective as possible would be best, but I know a lot of it is subjective as well, but try. Cause at this point, everything is cheese and cancer for some people.

Cancer is something that you don't want your doctor to say or it is part of the zodiac in the heavens. Here, not in Tamriel. Cheese is something you put inside a grilled sandwich or even better, you bake some Brie on a plate with a little pesto and olive oil. throw in some flat bread and some roasted almonds and who need supper?

Magus

I am hungry and that baked brie sounds amazing right now.

GrigorijMalahevich

No - BGs are DOA

No CP.

No premade teams. For premade teams separate leaderboards.

All player names are hidden, so you can't message your opposing team. (Player 1; Player 2 etc.)

Choose a role before start and get 3 premade sets to select from for your role.

No resource poisons.

For leaderboards - make it inpossible for same teams to meet in 30-45 minutes after first match or make a proper MMR system.



But it will probably not happen and we will see heavy armor stupidity...

Nevertheless I really want to give it a go.

paulsimonps

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Earthewen wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Everyone keeps using the terms Cancer and cheese. Could someone give me good definition on those to terms in regards to this context? As objective as possible would be best, but I know a lot of it is subjective as well, but try. Cause at this point, everything is cheese and cancer for some people.

Cancer is something that you don't want your doctor to say or it is part of the zodiac in the heavens. Here, not in Tamriel. Cheese is something you put inside a grilled sandwich or even better, you bake some Brie on a plate with a little pesto and olive oil. throw in some flat bread and some roasted almonds and who need supper?

Well aren't you funny. I specifically said in regards to this context, referring to PvP and Battlegrounds and builds surrounding that.

Most_Awesome

BG Will be fun at the start.......but once everyone gets crushed by teams with Players like Nser, Kser, Skaffa in them people will leave and never bother again. Then as the player base dwindles down only the Elite and most OP players will be left, and only then will the true forum wars erupt with Drama....I cant wait

FENGRUSH

Lord FENGRUSH will make builds for Rikter to learn how to play BGs and he will be able to enjoy the content. Everyone relax and prepare for glory.

FENGRUSH

Lord FENGRUSH agrees with the above post.

zyk

The key will be responsiveness. Where ZOS has failed very badly with PVP is in its response speed to major issues. PVP players who form the foundation of communities are enthusiast gamers who have high expectations.

When an ability is broken, waiting weeks/months until the next major update to fix it is not good enough. If this continues to be true, Battlegrounds will be a mediocre PVP game and ESO PVP will continue to be irrelevant in the greater PVP gaming landscape.

Eirella

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

I'm just happy there's going to be a new place to PVP with no zergs.