Battlegrounds: Dead on Arrival?

Rickter

I wrote this in another thread and i dont want to derail and i'm legitimately wondering what people's opinions are about this:

Rickter wrote: »

Battlegrounds will be fun for a very short time.

between Warden OPness and cheese proc sets, you'll never have a good time.

It'll turn into very streamlined meta builds/sets and IF you want your team to not get "EXPOSED" in 10 seconds flat, you will have to conform to that meta so its unkillable dmg dealing tanks versus unkillable dmg dealing tanks.

Im calling it: Battlegrounds = Dead On Arrival

So what do you think? Take CP away, dont even think about it. Let's talk

POISONS
LAUNCH WARDEN OVER POWERED
PROC SETS
STACKED TEAMS
STREAMLINED FORCE FED META

In the current (or even what we know about BGs now) state of ESO PvP - can you honestly say BGs will be a welcome and awesome addition to the game?

UPDATE: Im not adamantly against Battlegrounds despite what the knee jerk fanboys presumably think. I was asking a legitimate question based on the current and known about the future state of things. I was genuinely curious whether players thought BG was a good idea given the issues already present in the game that i listed in my OP.

I stop talking about CP - like my question explicitly stated to take the CP factor out of the equation and look at the OTHER compounded issues facing small v small arena combat.

@Lexxypwns honestly lays out exactly what my concern is. maybe you all like his tone better than mine, but this is the truth in my eyes, whatever way you want to slice it:

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Obviously this kind of *** is gonna be a problem though. You, I, and anyone with a brain can see it. Its not like cyrodiil where you can pick a different keep to fight at or zerg them down. I'm not advocating zerging, but let's face it, that's how PUGS compete with skilled players atm, in battlegrounds you can at most outnumber someone 2-1 and even then you have to worry about getting caught in aoe crossfire while trying to beat the more organized group.

Solariken

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Everything you listed will be a problem in addition to likely bugs and general problems with the system/design itself. However, I still foresee good times to he had especially versus pug groups. Pre-mades are going to be an absolute nightmare though - we'll just have to take the good with the bad I guess.

Rickter

Solariken wrote: »

Pre-mades are going to be an absolute nightmare though

so in Cyrodiil overworld, these "premades" are relegated to "small scale" groups and gankers. you can combat this by running in a larger group (for the most part) in BGs there is no countermeasure. what happens when premades farm BGs for the rewards and leaderboards and your pugging experience goes down the drain?

Turelus

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

It's going to be awesome when I turn up with no gear on.

In seriousness though, it'll be good. All you said is probably true but at least you'll have hit and miss matches and they'll be short enough to get into some more hit ones when you're sulking over the misses.

XpoZeD_GoD

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

It is a great addition to the game from a small group/solo pvp player, I have grown tired of running laps around the main 6 keeps and fed up of what feels like a horse riding simulator. Battlegrounds will be great for a lot of reasons but everyone wants to look at all the negatives that could potentially happen but that's not because Battlegrounds are a bad idea, it's because people will always try to make things as frustrating and boring as possible for other people (proc builds, blazeplars, reactive+malubeth). No CP will be a necessity and you will just need to prepare to be hit by poisons. Also, the fact that people think the Warden will be meta defining is pretty laughable, every class always has and always will have something good about them and the Warden won't be able to come along and render them all useless.

Rickter

XpoZeD_GoD wrote: »

It is a great addition to the game from a small group/solo pvp player, I have grown tired of running laps around the main 6 keeps and fed up of what feels like a horse riding simulator.

So running a force fed meta build is better than horse simulator?

XpoZeD_GoD wrote: »

Battlegrounds are a bad idea

Thats not what i said. I think BGs are a great addition, but im asking if the players think its a good idea based on the current and knowable state of ESO PvP.

XpoZeD_GoD wrote: »

it's because people will always try to make things as frustrating and boring as possible for other people (proc builds, blazeplars, reactive+malubeth).

So knowing this, you still think this is a great idea?

XpoZeD_GoD wrote: »

Also, the fact that people think the Warden will be meta defining is pretty laughable, every class always has and always will have something good about them and the Warden won't be able to come along and render them all useless.

no its not laughable at all.

bubbygink

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

I think it is good to point out potential problems that will arise in BGs and for the most part I agree with the issues you've brought up. But I think it is a gross overstatement to say "battlegrounds will be dead on arrival." Despite some problems I think they will still be a ton of fun. Additionally, we don't know what kind of balance changes are coming yet so hopefully some of these issues are being addressed.

Artemiisia

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

I got my broom and bucket ready

Rickter

it honestly sounds like everyone knows exactly the circus BGs are going to be but they are willing to turn a blind eye for their own reasons.

every response so far has been "yeah youre probably right but its still going to be fun"

paulsimonps

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

People are so *** negative, and why is everyone expecting Warden to be OP beyond all recognition on release? It wasn't during play test and I doubt it will be with any changes they made since then. And we had poisons, proc sets and all kinds of things during it too, we stacked teams tight and use Ultimates in a very coordinated manner and had really long and fun fights. And I must remind you that not everyone that playtested was a PvP'er. Sure Sypher, Fengrush and the others were, but for example me and asayre can hardly be called PvP'ers. But we could still have fun an contribute to the fights.

In regards to premades, the Devs have already said that the queue for BG will try and put premades against premades to the best of its abilities and so with all luck it will only happen a few times when population is low that you will face a premade as a non premade.

Everyone yelling out that BG will be dead cause of cancer meta builds or whatever. But what if I told you that there are plenty of non meta builds that can really mess up their day in BG cause of how much different of a scenario that is. And to be honest everything that one person isn't personally running and gets killed by instead seems to be called out as Meta cancer build. Get over yourselves and remember that Cyrodiil is not meant for small scale. This however is and groups of all kind of compositions will be able to contribute really well in my opinion. I tried the BG with both a Warden and a DK Tank and I can honestly say I didn't let my team down and on certain game modes we were actually really well off using a proper Tank in the group.

Stay positive guys, BG will be awesome.

Derra

All i´m saying is: I´ve personally never experienced satisfied customers in BGs with no MMR and random vs grp queue.
It´s not fun for the group slaughtering randoms. It´s not fun for the randoms getting rekt.

We´ll see a lot of balance cries. Instant bg leaves. Cheesebuilds. Whatever.

It´s going to be great in the beginning when the playerbase largely participates in this - in the process creating less lopsided matches.
But once interest inevitably begins to die down the flaws are going to show more and more - this is going to drive random/pug players from the BGs and afterwards the only average groups...

Couple this inevitable process with the fact we´ll only see 3 arenas with 3 gametypes at launch i think the first 4 to 8 weeks are going to be an absolute blast for everyone participating and afterwards it´s going to slow down significantly for anyone not in a highly organised group (much like IC launch).

Kas

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Just copy what ever you deem OP. See if it really is. Even if it is actually so OP every serious player/team has to do the same thing (which I actually doubt), you can still have a lot of fun trying to nail the execution, while you hope for the next patch to mix things up.

If there is any problem, it's that they want to delay rankings and matchmaking. you simply cannot really let premade 4-mans of highly optimized teams compete against randoms who still skip DLC undaunted dailies or even run dailes in nonvet..

Zeuq

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Derra wrote: »

All i´m saying is: I´ve personally never experienced satisfied customers in BGs with no MMR and random vs grp queue.
It´s not fun for the group slaughtering randoms. It´s not fun for the randoms getting rekt.

We´ll see a lot of balance cries. Instant bg leaves. Cheesebuilds. Whatever.

It´s going to be great in the beginning when the playerbase largely participates in this - in the process creating less lopsided matches.
But once interest inevitably begins to die down the flaws are going to show more and more - this is going to drive random/pug players from the BGs and afterwards the only average groups...

Couple this inevitable process with the fact we´ll only see 3 arenas with 3 gametypes at launch i think the first 4 to 8 weeks are going to be an absolute blast for everyone participating and afterwards it´s going to slow down significantly for anyone not in a highly organised group (much like IC launch).

Did they say there is no MMR?

kadar

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

LAUNCH WARDEN OVER POWERED

The only people to have actually played Warden for any length of time (3 days straight), anticipate that they are not terribly OP. I choose to take their word than some forum hero who red some passives from a screen shot, you know?

POISONS
PROC SETS
STACKED TEAMS
STREAMLINED FORCE FED META

As it will be a competitive leaderboard system, I'm hoping ZOS will impliment certain rules (no resource poisons). Also: If they do follow through and reduce CP sustain, resource poisons won't even have a place in game and need to be removed/tweaked regardless of BGs.

Stacked teams will prioritize battles against other premade teams to avoid get 4 leet players with voice comms fighting 4 pugs.Once again, this a competitive system. This means that meta builds will reign (like any other type of competitive content ever, lol). Also: ZOS will be doing quite a few balance changes to sets/classes I expect again given the competitive nature of the expansion.

Cogo

No - BGs are DOA

Battleground is exactly what ESO DONT need.

I just hope there is a Cyro left, with players, after people get bored with them after a few months.

Derra

Zeuq wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

All i´m saying is: I´ve personally never experienced satisfied customers in BGs with no MMR and random vs grp queue.
It´s not fun for the group slaughtering randoms. It´s not fun for the randoms getting rekt.

We´ll see a lot of balance cries. Instant bg leaves. Cheesebuilds. Whatever.

It´s going to be great in the beginning when the playerbase largely participates in this - in the process creating less lopsided matches.
But once interest inevitably begins to die down the flaws are going to show more and more - this is going to drive random/pug players from the BGs and afterwards the only average groups...

Couple this inevitable process with the fact we´ll only see 3 arenas with 3 gametypes at launch i think the first 4 to 8 weeks are going to be an absolute blast for everyone participating and afterwards it´s going to slow down significantly for anyone not in a highly organised group (much like IC launch).

Did they say there is no MMR?

Afaik there won´t be mmr and when there are no other groups to fight the queue will match premade vs pug.

FlyLionel

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Hey @Rickter I believe poisons are in this for a dead ass final decision on someone is bound to die, promoting fast pace fighting and screwing over tanks mainly. Truthfully I have never used poisons yet and I can understand why they introduced it to CP. As for why in no CP, maybe healers/noobs have a chance against good players/tanky guys running away with the flag laughing with major mending.

No idea about Warden, but I place it as a top 3 class in the entire game. Top 2 in utility, fourth or third in dps and top 3 tanks. Very general things I just said but from my eyes and experience this is just a safe class to introduce lol. No idea about stamina, think stam sorc like with great buffs from class but has to dps using weapons.

No crit from proc sets fam, balanced...

1 magdk 1stamdk 1 mag templar and either a mag warden or stam sorc. Bro it is inevitable; like open world pvp lol..

When the festival came out with that maxhealth max stam and recovery DRINK* I just shaked my head watching the meta right before my eyes right after eso live said they are leaning towards no cp BG's. I knew if back in the days when stam used drinks in medium bone pirate would be crazy, but when it came out no one ran drinks, ever. What happened to the crafted recovery set in reapers march? Or heavy attacking consistent to stay in the game? Bone pirate is just a 'no brainer' when it comes to stam (which I main) in no cp medium dps, no idea if those new drinks work with it but it does say drinks for bone pirate. As for magic; lich? Idk there has to be balance and if that pirate setup is going to stay it will be like the old meta. Idiot just use 5 hundings 3 agiity 1p bs 1p kena maelstrom weapons gtfo you're endgame lol..come on Zeni let the players think more, this is hilarious.

NightbladeMechanics

I think you underestimate the importance of cost reduction CP to unkillable damage dealing do-everything tanks, and the potential for 4 people to coordinate to focus fire single targets down, especially with proper healing debuffs and poisons and potentially without CP.

Not that they might not be dead in the water. I just haven't formed a definitive opinion yet. The matchmaking and queue systems will greatly impact their success as well.

Vitaely

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Rickter wrote: »

POISONS
LAUNCH WARDEN OVER POWERED
PROC SETS
STACKED TEAMS
STREAMLINED FORCE FED META

All these options already apply to Cyrodiil PVP. You are right in saying some aspects of pvp is broken, these should be discussed in larger scale, not only in terms of battlegrounds.

At least Battleground PVP will have clearer rules and equal odds.

alephthiago

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome
80%

No - BGs are DOA
20%



.....kek

vamp_emily

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

BG = play pin for babies

I think it will be a success, but expect the forum to be filled with more "waaaa I got my tush hurt, nurf this and that" types of threads.

Rickter

Derra wrote: »

All i´m saying is: I´ve personally never experienced satisfied customers in BGs with no MMR and random vs grp queue.
It´s not fun for the group slaughtering randoms. It´s not fun for the randoms getting rekt.

We´ll see a lot of balance cries. Instant bg leaves. Cheesebuilds. Whatever.

It´s going to be great in the beginning when the playerbase largely participates in this - in the process creating less lopsided matches.
But once interest inevitably begins to die down the flaws are going to show more and more - this is going to drive random/pug players from the BGs and afterwards the only average groups...

Couple this inevitable process with the fact we´ll only see 3 arenas with 3 gametypes at launch i think the first 4 to 8 weeks are going to be an absolute blast for everyone participating and afterwards it´s going to slow down significantly for anyone not in a highly organised group (much like IC launch).

Vitaely wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

POISONS
LAUNCH WARDEN OVER POWERED
PROC SETS
STACKED TEAMS
STREAMLINED FORCE FED META

All these options already apply to Cyrodiil PVP. You are right in saying some aspects of pvp is broken, these should be discussed in larger scale, not only in terms of battlegrounds.

At least Battleground PVP will have clearer rules and equal odds.

yes they are affecting PvP now, but in a controlled environment with smaller groups - these advantages are far more compounded than open world pvp.

@Derra gets it. he sees the truth

Derra

Rickter wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

All i´m saying is: I´ve personally never experienced satisfied customers in BGs with no MMR and random vs grp queue.
It´s not fun for the group slaughtering randoms. It´s not fun for the randoms getting rekt.

We´ll see a lot of balance cries. Instant bg leaves. Cheesebuilds. Whatever.

It´s going to be great in the beginning when the playerbase largely participates in this - in the process creating less lopsided matches.
But once interest inevitably begins to die down the flaws are going to show more and more - this is going to drive random/pug players from the BGs and afterwards the only average groups...

Couple this inevitable process with the fact we´ll only see 3 arenas with 3 gametypes at launch i think the first 4 to 8 weeks are going to be an absolute blast for everyone participating and afterwards it´s going to slow down significantly for anyone not in a highly organised group (much like IC launch).

Vitaely wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

POISONS
LAUNCH WARDEN OVER POWERED
PROC SETS
STACKED TEAMS
STREAMLINED FORCE FED META

All these options already apply to Cyrodiil PVP. You are right in saying some aspects of pvp is broken, these should be discussed in larger scale, not only in terms of battlegrounds.

At least Battleground PVP will have clearer rules and equal odds.

yes they are affecting PvP now, but in a controlled environment with smaller groups - these advantages are far more compounded than open world pvp.

@Derra gets it. he sees the truth

I don´t know if this will be true.

It´s just my personal experience i´ve made in 5 other mmos offering battlegrounds over the last 10 years. I´d be happy if it turns out differently.
I can´t see why it would at the moment.

Edit: What could circumvent the issues i´ve mentioned would be a large enough playerbase of pugs compared to premade groups - which could happen bc of the 1 megaserver architecture.

Vitaely

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Derra wrote: »

We´ll see a lot of balance cries. Instant bg leaves. Cheesebuilds. Whatever.

And we don't see cries right now? If you don't get hate whispers, you're doing something wrong.

I do agree, there will come a time ZOS will see the need for MMR and I can just hope they won't make a mess of it.

Rickter

The funny thing is: everyone is AGREEING on my points of concern and then subsequently dismissing them.

its almost delusional.

There are videos of "infinite sustain" duels where it takes 5-8 people to zerg them down. now imagine a 4 man team of those infinite sustain builds and only 4 of you.

what will happen?

it'll force you to "git gud" aka copy that build as someone said earlier - this is called "the meta" and when everyone is cookie cutter just to compete with the cancer builds, BGs will fall flat.

IcyDeadPeople

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

The balance will probably be messed up, but it will be fun as hell anyways. I think for a lot of people the BG will become the entire game.

Rickter

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

The balance will probably be messed up, but it will be fun as hell anyways. I think for a lot of people the BG will become the entire game.

another "everyone is AGREEING on my points of concern and then subsequently dismissing them." comment.

Derra

Vitaely wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

We´ll see a lot of balance cries. Instant bg leaves. Cheesebuilds. Whatever.

And we don't see cries right now? If you don't get hate whispers, you're doing something wrong.

I do agree, there will come a time ZOS will see the need for MMR and I can just hope they won't make a mess of it.

The problem (from my experience) is that in BGs there is no way to combat this.

Ie: You can´t bring more people. You can´t go somewhere else for 15mins after dying once.

IcyDeadPeople

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Rickter wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

The balance will probably be messed up, but it will be fun as hell anyways. I think for a lot of people the BG will become the entire game.

another "everyone is AGREEING on my points of concern and then subsequently dismissing them." comment.

You suggested above it will be dead on arrival. I think regardless of balance problems, battlegrounds will be much more popular than Cyrodiil and IC, possibly even more popular than group dungeons or any other kind of gameplay.

magictucktuck

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

with CP hopefully out of BGs i am going to remain hopeful that they will be awesome!

Biro123

Here's my fears..

I kind of think Cyro will be dead in the water. I mean with the current off-peak state of play in EU TF and AZ, Anyone who actually wants to fight other players will be gone from Cyro as soon as they get an alternative - and so will only be doing BG's - leaving only the PVDoor crowd in Cyro.

Now if BG's are successful (and I hope they are) - the PVP population will be able to keep on Pvping.. If not, the PVPers will go back to Cyro... but they will be going back one at a time as each one gets gradually disillusioned with BG's - but they will go to an empty Cyro - see that there's nothing going on there and then simply stop playing.

If it fails it could be the death of PVP in ESO.

I really hope it doesn't fail. But I'm really, really worried about premades vs pugs.. That scenario was a nightmare in Warhammer Online where you eneded up within the first 2 mins being spawn-camped - people leaving, others joining only to see whats going on - leave... etc. No fun for either side - at all.
To work, it HAS to be premade vs premade or Pug vs Pug. Regardless of all the potential cheesebuilds/poisons/procs etc.... those issues will pale in comparison.