Battlegrounds: Dead on Arrival?

IxSTALKERxI

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Rickter wrote: »

I wrote this in another thread and i dont want to derail and i'm legitimately wondering what people's opinions are about this:

Rickter wrote: »

Battlegrounds will be fun for a very short time.

between Warden OPness and cheese proc sets, you'll never have a good time.

It'll turn into very streamlined meta builds/sets and IF you want your team to not get "EXPOSED" in 10 seconds flat, you will have to conform to that meta so its unkillable dmg dealing tanks versus unkillable dmg dealing tanks.

Im calling it: Battlegrounds = Dead On Arrival

So what do you think? Take CP away, dont even think about it. Let's talk

POISONS
LAUNCH WARDEN OVER POWERED
PROC SETS
STACKED TEAMS
STREAMLINED FORCE FED META

In the current (or even what we know about BGs now) state of ESO PvP - can you honestly say BGs will be a welcome and awesome addition to the game?

These are a lot of crazy assumptions, it's way too early to be this critical about battlegrounds.

If I was to speculate on the information we have, I don't think warden will be OP in battlegrounds, you'll probably want 1 warden and the other 3 slots to be sorcs and templars. In cyrodiil large scale pvp wardens will have a lot to offer larger groups and 'zerg surfing' wardens will probably be strong, 1vX's that dodge roll around trees repeatedly will probs get zerged down by wardens with cliff racer.

Anways, I think battlegrounds will be a lot of fun and I'm looking forward to it. My concern with the current state of the game is the power creep of crazy builds due to CP and endless fights between good players, but battlegrounds might be CP free and there are CP changes being made. So this issue could be getting addressed which will be good to see.

Groups of 'elite' players who have min maxed meta builds make up like 0.1% of the community so chances are you'll be paired up against average players most of the time. On the odd occasion you do get paired up against someone like Fengrush, you will still make progress earning 'Medals' even if the other members on your team are useless and die repeatedly, and there will be a third team in the mix to.

Lucky28

Honestly, i'm not planning on buying Morrowind in the first place the CP changes are turning me away from it, didn't really like no cp pvp it's kinda borning/easy imo. and now that tf will be getting closer to Azura's i'm kinda not feeling it.

so i dunno.

IxSTALKERxI

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Lucky28 wrote: »

Honestly, i'm not planning on buying Morrowind in the first place the CP changes are turning me away from it, didn't really like no cp pvp it's kinda borning/easy imo. and now that tf will be getting closer to Azura's i'm kinda not feeling it.

so i dunno.

I feel like 300 CP is the sweet spot. PVP with 600+ CP leads to never ending fights, and No CP ends up being cheesed by poisons, proc sets and siege. I wish it could be balanced so we could have something in between. Itemization is also out of control since one tamriel.

Derra

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Lord FENGRUSH will make builds for Rikter to learn how to play BGs and he will be able to enjoy the content. Everyone relax and prepare for glory.

Honestly - adressing none of the issues brought up by people (based on the information made public by zos) and saying it´s gonne be all great is just as believeable as the naysayers claiming bgs will suck?

Jitterbug

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Not that they might not be dead in the water. I just haven't formed a definitive opinion yet. The matchmaking and queue systems will greatly impact their success as well.

If there is ANY way to cheese the matchmaking system, so that two teams that know eachother, can fight an unaware team, then I will have to say DOA. If ZOS has given some thought to blind matchmaking and has some way to prevent cheesing the queue, then this has a chance.

I don't know if they need to go so far as to mask names of players in the Arena but I know some prominent players in PvP that refuse to fight other prominent players on opposite faction due to some false sense of professional courtesy.

Imagine 3 teams. Team one has a highly recognizable streamer on the team. Team 2 has a hardcore "elite" player that knows that streams. Team three is nameless pugs.

Do you really think that match is really going to be an unbiased three way fight?

Is this fake news like you told me in zone the other night?

Kind of hard to create fake news in the future but I can try.

I believe in you!

Lucky28

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Honestly, i'm not planning on buying Morrowind in the first place the CP changes are turning me away from it, didn't really like no cp pvp it's kinda borning/easy imo. and now that tf will be getting closer to Azura's i'm kinda not feeling it.

so i dunno.

I feel like 300 CP is the sweet spot. PVP with 600+ CP leads to never ending fights, and No CP ends up being cheesed by poisons, proc sets and siege. I wish it could be balanced so we could have something in between. Itemization is also out of control since one tamriel.

really i think block is what needs to be addressed not overall sustain. i'm fine with people having infinite magicka/stamina just means you have to focus more on timing. but block is just.... if they're gonna remove anything i wish they'd remove the block cost reduction CP and nerf sturdy and leave the rest as is.

i mean my experience in no CP PvP is: you're either face rolling people or getting faction zerged. not that excited to go back to that.

Merlin13KAGL

You do realize that part of the very thing you are concerned about will lead to new build/group/tactics combinations to combat that very thing you are concerned about...

Plus, I suspect if certain things are overperforming, especially in terms of group synergy, it should be a much more focused and highly visible venue for ZoS to take notice and, hopefully, fix.

In some cases, it will be less about combos, and more about set creation/synergy in order to beat a group of opponents - they will in turn, adapt as well.

DocFrost72

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

You may want to stick to your area of expertise- what the game could use. Those are much better and more well thought out posts than this one.

Rohaus

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Hating on something before it's even here... negative Nancy!

This guy here wants battlegrounds now!!!!

FENGRUSH

Derra wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Lord FENGRUSH will make builds for Rikter to learn how to play BGs and he will be able to enjoy the content. Everyone relax and prepare for glory.

Honestly - adressing none of the issues brought up by people (based on the information made public by zos) and saying it´s gonne be all great is just as believeable as the naysayers claiming bgs will suck?

You were able to read the post for what it truly was then. Well played.


Wait until its tested.

Lexxypwns

No - BGs are DOA

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Warden will suck and people will take to the forums en masse to rage at ZOS that the reason they purchased Morrowind was for the new class, and they want a full refund and all devs fired immediately.

Then Scipio will take to the forums and make fun of all those complaining.

It's a combination of things that will put Warden in a great spot, not to mention they have every good buff in the game plus tools built in for infinite sustain. Don't see how anyone can't see why theyll be over the top.

Stam sorcs class wise don't stand out on paper BUT when you throw everything together plus theorycrafting the class comes out on top. Warden will be no different when it comes out.

Based upon what we've seen I'm left thinking a few things.

Where's the burst? Infinite sustaining buff machine sounds OP and all, but you've gotta get kills.

Where's the reliable CC? Its not there

I'm just saying, regardless of what you think you see in the warden skill line, its got weaknesses. Mag warden seems to be lacking good burst and has no useful offensive ult or reliable CC. Its gonna be like 1.6 magplar, with more group utility and less damage, but now there's no proxy det to supplement your burst against 1 or 2 people.

What makes you think they won't have damage? Again look at stam sorcs skill line in terms of damage, look at stam dk as well nothing really stands out but you can't say they don't have damage when you fully build them up. And I'm mostly talking about the stam version and they have a cc too but if it's reliable is yet to be found out.

The magic version seems to be more group oriented, I'm sure they'll be up there with magplars when it comes to group play.

Stam sorc has better DoTs and better stam sustain than warden will so I don't think you can stack nearly as much damage. Same for stam DK, 2 great DoTs and incredible sustain passives. Warden does not have this, they literally have 3 skills that do damage, 1 of which is reported to be a clunky disaster of a skill. Their stam sustain skill, while it does increase their overall sustain costs 3k stamina and restores a small amount over time, unlike helping hands, battle roar or dark deal you can't use this to get out of a tough situation where you're at 10% stamina. Its only logic that since the stam sustain isn't going to be phenomenal that you can't stack damage as hard.

As for mag warden, we're in agreeance, once people know how to play against them they're gonna be hard pressed to kill good players with their current kit and likely be relegated to group duty outside of a few edge cases.

We still have incomplete data, but what I see is a buff machine that's missing key tools I personally value much more than having access to a myriad of buffs. For example, mag sorcerer uses less buffs/debuffs than any other class in pvp right now, all you really need is major sorcery + major prophecy and you can pump out a ton of burst because of the class options available.

Lexxypwns

No - BGs are DOA

I just can't look at the crazy synergy that even just 2 players who build for it can get and think that PUGS vs Pre-mades is gonna be anything other than 1 sided stomps.

Let's look at a duo setup I often run with my wife, for example.

Magplar + mDK

Magplar runs 5 Trans 5 Fasalla 2 Troll king 2 Seducer guards the mDK and supplies minor magikasteal so DK sustain becomes irrelevant

mDK runs
5 BSW 5 Julianos/Alch/Spinners/Mother's Sorrow 2 Bloodspawn
Because of guard, troll king, trans, and the magika sustain provided by the magplar the mDK is able to stack full damage and if you can guarantee a manageable number of targets(in a battlegrounds situation for example) then you can even 5 light.

When we start seeing pre-made groups running build synergies like this against PuGs then its going to be a problem. If you take either of these builds blindly into BGs there's no guarantee you're going to get something that works to support the holes in your setup and risk being totally useless. 4 randoms, without any planned build synergy cannot ever compete with 4 people who build for group synergy.

FENGRUSH

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I just can't look at the crazy synergy that even just 2 players who build for it can get and think that PUGS vs Pre-mades is gonna be anything other than 1 sided stomps.

Let's look at a duo setup I often run with my wife, for example.

Magplar + mDK

Magplar runs 5 Trans 5 Fasalla 2 Troll king 2 Seducer guards the mDK and supplies minor magikasteal so DK sustain becomes irrelevant

mDK runs
5 BSW 5 Julianos/Alch/Spinners/Mother's Sorrow 2 Bloodspawn
Because of guard, troll king, trans, and the magika sustain provided by the magplar the mDK is able to stack full damage and if you can guarantee a manageable number of targets(in a battlegrounds situation for example) then you can even 5 light.

When we start seeing pre-made groups running build synergies like this against PuGs then its going to be a problem. If you take either of these builds blindly into BGs there's no guarantee you're going to get something that works to support the holes in your setup and risk being totally useless. 4 randoms, without any planned build synergy cannot ever compete with 4 people who build for group synergy.

Reported for using brain in PvP

Alcast

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

NO CP BGs fix most problems. "most" not all

NBrookus

Alcast wrote: »

NO CP BGs fix most problems. "most" not all

Well, different problems. Hello poisons.

But all in all I think noCP will be better for battlegrounds.

Derra

Alcast wrote: »

NO CP BGs fix most problems. "most" not all

It fixes some by creating new ones though - for example very linear build option for light armor.

FENGRUSH

Derra wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

NO CP BGs fix most problems. "most" not all

It fixes some by creating new ones though - for example very linear build option for light armor.

Its better than the alternative. There is no 'fix' for June 6th.

Derra

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

NO CP BGs fix most problems. "most" not all

It fixes some by creating new ones though - for example very linear build option for light armor.

Its better than the alternative...

That´s entirely subjective.

LegacyDM

Rickter wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Pre-mades are going to be an absolute nightmare though

so in Cyrodiil overworld, these "premades" are relegated to "small scale" groups and gankers. you can combat this by running in a larger group (for the most part) in BGs there is no countermeasure. what happens when premades farm BGs for the rewards and leaderboards and your pugging experience goes down the drain?

Welcome to overwatch...

FENGRUSH

Derra wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

NO CP BGs fix most problems. "most" not all

It fixes some by creating new ones though - for example very linear build option for light armor.

Its better than the alternative...

That´s entirely subjective.

Yea - you dont like nonCP - I get that. I can cook up some builds you wont push over in BGs with CP. Endless BS and stupid survival. Thats pretty much it - and there isnt much of anything subjective to that. Thats why noCP is looking to be the way to go for BGs. Doesnt matter how you feel about open world Cyro nonCP.

Both environments have imbalances - theres no magic solution coming before Morrowind drops to fix everything. Better to choose the more enjoyable solution than play devils advocate.

Aedaryl

If zenimax nerf heavy armor well, battleground will be very nice !

The only problem I see is guard and unkillable templar/tank. But if you remove it, it will be fun.

Don't forget there 3 modes of battleground (so not only 4 man stacking thogever) and a 4v4v4 make things better than 4v4, if there is a *** tank-heal, it can be more than 4 player on him.

Let's see what's kind of balance Morrowind bring.

BuggeX

No - BGs are DOA

biggest Problem is zos doesnt give a *** about pvp and doesnt fix exploits / overpowered-broken sets.
they will wait 3-6 months till they fix thus ***. so no bgs will be ***

Lexxypwns

No - BGs are DOA

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I just can't look at the crazy synergy that even just 2 players who build for it can get and think that PUGS vs Pre-mades is gonna be anything other than 1 sided stomps.

Let's look at a duo setup I often run with my wife, for example.

Magplar + mDK

Magplar runs 5 Trans 5 Fasalla 2 Troll king 2 Seducer guards the mDK and supplies minor magikasteal so DK sustain becomes irrelevant

mDK runs
5 BSW 5 Julianos/Alch/Spinners/Mother's Sorrow 2 Bloodspawn
Because of guard, troll king, trans, and the magika sustain provided by the magplar the mDK is able to stack full damage and if you can guarantee a manageable number of targets(in a battlegrounds situation for example) then you can even 5 light.

When we start seeing pre-made groups running build synergies like this against PuGs then its going to be a problem. If you take either of these builds blindly into BGs there's no guarantee you're going to get something that works to support the holes in your setup and risk being totally useless. 4 randoms, without any planned build synergy cannot ever compete with 4 people who build for group synergy.

Reported for using brain in PvP

Reported for Reporting

Obviously this kind of *** is gonna be a problem though. You, I, and anyone with a brain can see it. Its not like cyrodiil where you can pick a different keep to fight at or zerg them down. I'm not advocating zerging, but let's face it, that's how PUGS compete with skilled players atm, in battlegrounds you can at most outnumber someone 2-1 and even then you have to worry about getting caught in aoe crossfire while trying to beat the more organized group.

Edit: @Aedaryl you don't need heavy to make guard effective, the incoming damage to the person using guard gets reduced first by the person who is being guarded's mitigation then by your own, this makes is totally possible to effectively run guard on medium and light armor builds, particularly with pirate skele(whose heal debuff is purgable)

Aedaryl

Lexy, agree, that's why I said guard and heavy armor not guard with heavy armor

Lexxypwns

No - BGs are DOA

Aedaryl wrote: »

Lexy, agree, that's why I said guard and heavy armor not guard with heavy armor

Fair enough.

Also, the counter of "both teams can pile this tank" is horrible too, because then the tanks 3 team mates get an easy bomb and wipe.

If there's not drastic, colossal, changes to the combat system then battlegrounds are gonna be a train wreck. This includes no CP as well, in those environments poisons are too strong and we still have bad game mechanics and premade vs pug issues to deal with.

I really really want BGs to work, I'm literally still playing this game only for the hope that they don't suck, but I can see the writing on the wall as well.

Minno

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Vitaely wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

The funny thing is: everyone is AGREEING on my points of concern and then subsequently dismissing them.

its almost delusional.

It's not delusional. The people who kept asking for Battlegrounds when they used to be a dream, are the same people who run in smaller groups in Cyrodiil every day looking for good fights only to get zerged at a resource or town.

Ahh, yes. These are they players who will 4v1 soloers till the cows come home then get salty when they get 16v4'd..

I think this is a pretty narrow comment. Most small scalers respect numbers and wouldn't do that unless they have beef with the person or are attacked first.

Or that player is tanky so you need 4 players to help burst then down.

Or you suspect them to be placing a camp (dead enemy's still on floor while one player running.)

Minno

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Lexy, agree, that's why I said guard and heavy armor not guard with heavy armor

Fair enough.

Also, the counter of "both teams can pile this tank" is horrible too, because then the tanks 3 team mates get an easy bomb and wipe.

If there's not drastic, colossal, changes to the combat system then battlegrounds are gonna be a train wreck. This includes no CP as well, in those environments poisons are too strong and we still have bad game mechanics and premade vs pug issues to deal with.

I really really want BGs to work, I'm literally still playing this game only for the hope that they don't suck, but I can see the writing on the wall as well.

I can say most of us are looking for BG to give PvP new life. We have not seen a new PvP update since soft caps were removed and AOE caps added. IC was a pve zone that lost incentive for populations.

Regardless, poisons + defenses favoring stamina builds (dmg without sacrifice) issues need to be fixed.

redspecter23

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

There are quite a few edge case scenarios where things can get messy but I think the overall experience will be good if you show up with a 4 man team. If a large guild floods the queue with multiple teams, you could see collusion or players throwing matches and they would have cross team voice communication via TS3 or Discord as well.

I can't see how the group finder will work at all compared to premade groups but we'll see what happens there. There is just far too large a gap in player skill for that to work at all and a lack of voice chat for pug groups will pretty much seal the deal if they end up grouped against an actual team.

Derra

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

NO CP BGs fix most problems. "most" not all

It fixes some by creating new ones though - for example very linear build option for light armor.

Its better than the alternative...

That´s entirely subjective.

Yea - you dont like nonCP - I get that. I can cook up some builds you wont push over in BGs with CP. Endless BS and stupid survival. Thats pretty much it - and there isnt much of anything subjective to that. Thats why noCP is looking to be the way to go for BGs. Doesnt matter how you feel about open world Cyro nonCP.

Both environments have imbalances - theres no magic solution coming before Morrowind drops to fix everything. Better to choose the more enjoyable solution than play devils advocate.

Well and it´s still subjective.

I don´t care about unkillable builds as much as i care about stacking poisons and everyone wearing the same armor set with the same build.

Might be hard to believe. But you can try.

Also where am i playing devils advocate? I´ve just brought up a couple of problems every other BG game with a similar system has had in the past - and so far from what we know there is nothing to adress some of the same issues most bg games had for the past 10 years or so.

Publius_Scipio

Fengrush made a very Bicepstacular point. Each "flavor" of PvP is a different animal. What works in open world definitely doesn't fly in duels more often than not. I would expect the same to be true with Battlegrounds. If no CP is the safe bet, then absolutely ZOS should go down that route. Either that or implement and ensure a serious balancing between the classes.

In open world Sribes for example would gank you, one second, it was over. But if you caught him and he couldn't escape he was pretty squishy. He'd rather backpedal and vanish than fight back. The flip side was when Sribes and his buddies had those crazy troll four-six person groups. The one where they all fed off each other and were many times almost impossible too take down without a much larger group.

Now take Sribes and his buddies, put them in battlegrounds, without serious balancing, CP, the whole nine yards. Take away the ability to have more of your alliance help take them down. Stuff all that into a small scale arena, and let's see how many will enjoy battlegrounds.

The reality is that "no CP" is like pulling the plug on a lot of the troll builds. It's really that simple, pulling the plug. Or at least greatly toning it down. Maybe one day CP will be very balanced. ZOS surely is capable of achieving that. But will that be the case when the buzzer sounds on June 6th?

Edit: Quite frankly I personally home Trueflame. The CP in open world feels ok to me, even with troll builds around. Issue with TF is game performance. That being said I would definitely prefer no CP dueling and if I were to make assumptions, I'd be in no CP battlegrounds.