Battlegrounds: Dead on Arrival?

kadar

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

paulsimonps wrote: »

Everyone keeps using the terms Cancer and cheese. Could someone give me good definition on those to terms in regards to this context? As objective as possible would be best, but I know a lot of it is subjective as well, but try. Cause at this point, everything is cheese and cancer for some people.

Cancer and Cheese are words that players throw out to describe essentially any build or player that they do not approve of. These players have a self-made moral compass that is specific to and known only by them, and when it is violated by another player in any way, the violating player is subject to being called any number of video game expletives. For some it's zerging, proc sets, fear, or poisons, but really it could be anything.

@paulsimonps
Thanks for all the information you've taken the time to type out for us in this thread. Frankly it's a pleasant relief from all the baseless negativity and hostile tone that permeates the rest of this thread, lol.

Like I said in my comment earlier, we can either take the word of the people who have actually played the content we are discussing, or blindly assume that everything will be horrible (cause why not be negative just cause, right). Leif and Joy both pointed out (with hilarious examples) how ZOS is actually right at least as often, if not more so, than the forum player base. Frankly, I'm going to choose to be excited about this, and I will have a lot of fun playing BGs when the come out.

Sublime

paulsimonps wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Im not adamantly against Battlegrounds despite what the knee jerk fanboys presumably think. I was asking a legitimate question based on the current and known about the future state of things. I was genuinely curious whether players thought BG was a good idea given the issues already present in the game that i listed in my OP.

I stop talking about CP - like my question explicitly stated to take the CP factor out of the equation and look at the OTHER compounded issues facing small v small arena combat.

@Lexxypwns honestly lays out exactly what my concern is. maybe you all like his tone better than mine, but this is the truth in my eyes, whatever way you want to slice it:

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Obviously this kind of *** is gonna be a problem though. You, I, and anyone with a brain can see it. Its not like cyrodiil where you can pick a different keep to fight at or zerg them down. I'm not advocating zerging, but let's face it, that's how PUGS compete with skilled players atm, in battlegrounds you can at most outnumber someone 2-1 and even then you have to worry about getting caught in aoe crossfire while trying to beat the more organized group.

I mean, realistically, if we just wanted to wreck pugs we could do that in cyro. There needs to be things to prevent a pre-made going up against 2 Pug groups AND we need the ability to set up custom matches.

As far as I know the system is going to do the best of its ability to put premade vs premade. Sometimes it won't happen but I have faith in that it will most of the time, depends on how much premades we get vs how much pugs we will get.

Also the custom games sounds terrible, UNLESS, you make them give no AP or Tokens. Cause otherwise its gonna be ripe for abuse. You could grind tokens all day just making premades custom games with your friends. I would rather it didn't exist at all

@paulsimonps Did the devs talk about anything about matching groups of equal skill level together? From what I've heard so far it sounds like all premade groups are equal in the eyes of the matchmaking tool, which means you'll get premade groups of 4 casual players, all new to the game, running unoptimized builds and green quality gear, put up against good players in gold BIS gear with optimized builds. I can see that killing battlegrounds off very quickly.

Since nothing of the sort has been discussed publicly I am not allowed to confirm or deny it. Sorry. NDA is still in effect on things not yet talked about publicly, whether or not it was or was not talked about during the visit, and as far as I know nothing of the sort has been mentioned by devs publicly, either at PAX or at ESO Live or the forums. We will just all have to wait and see.

Thanks for the info.

Rickter

The_Outsider wrote: »

Cancer and Cheese are words that players throw out to describe essentially any build or player that they do not approve of. These players have a self-made moral compass that is specific to and known only by them, and when it is violated by another player in any way, the violating player is subject to being called any number of video game expletives. For some it's zerging, proc sets, fear, or poisons, but really it could be anything.

no, "Cancer and Cheese" is not used that way. You want to ignore the multitude of complaints about sets like Tremorscale, Viper, Troll King, Pirate ETC ETC ETC tells me you probably havent dueled or pvp'd that much. Most of the "cheese" revolves areound Proc sets. why? because in order for it to work, you rely on pure chance which effectively takes skill out of pvp. This has been well documented and substantially complained about. I'm honestly really confused that @paulsimonps and yourself @The_Outsider are implyingthat this CHEESE is a figment of people's imaginations.

There are real issues that a lot of people are just ignoring. scrolling through this thread you see a lot of people saying "yeah i agree with you but im still going to love BGs"

the_broo11

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Any scenario where a 2:1 ratio is guaranteed to be worst case for my team sounds awesome.

No sense in hardcore speculation on the (unknown) patch notes for now.

SneaK

I think it'll depend on the actual game modes and not really overall Battlegrounds. Tanks will be very toxic in Domination and CTF, but are going to offer very little in TDM. Hopefully we can queue up for specific modes, pugging in CTF/Dom will be a nightmare.

kadar

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Rickter wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Cancer and Cheese are words that players throw out to describe essentially any build or player that they do not approve of. These players have a self-made moral compass that is specific to and known only by them, and when it is violated by another player in any way, the violating player is subject to being called any number of video game expletives. For some it's zerging, proc sets, fear, or poisons, but really it could be anything.

no, "Cancer and Cheese" is not used that way.... I'm honestly really confused that @paulsimonps and yourself @The_Outsider are implyingthat this CHEESE is a figment of people's imaginations.

You didn't read what I wrote. I articulated that these term(s) are completely relative and arbitrarily assigned to whatever mechanic, set, build, or playstlye any given person isn't down with. Not that they don't exist. Cheese is indeed real, it's just completely up to user interpretation. It's the same with you and exactly my point: You disapprove of "Tremer, Viper, Troll King ECT ECT ECT" and so label them, "Cheese." That's your definition that you came up with. My definition is anyone who wears more than 1 proc set is Cheesy. So Viper + Tremer. It's specific to me. I made it up. I'll bet Paul has another idea about what is Cancerous or Cheesy. It is exactly this phenomenon I described accurately above.

For the 3rd and final time, this is all I have to say about BGs, thank you (to be clear, I'm disagreeing with you ):

Like I said in my comment earlier, we can either take the word of the people who have actually played the content we are discussing, or blindly assume that everything will be horrible (cause why not be negative just cause, right). Leif and Joy both pointed out (with hilarious examples) how ZOS is actually right at least as often, if not more so, than the forum player base. Frankly, I'm going to choose to be excited about this, and I will have a lot of fun playing BGs when the come out.

timidobserver

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Rickter wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Cancer and Cheese are words that players throw out to describe essentially any build or player that they do not approve of. These players have a self-made moral compass that is specific to and known only by them, and when it is violated by another player in any way, the violating player is subject to being called any number of video game expletives. For some it's zerging, proc sets, fear, or poisons, but really it could be anything.

no, "Cancer and Cheese" is not used that way. You want to ignore the multitude of complaints about sets like Tremorscale, Viper, Troll King, Pirate ETC ETC ETC tells me you probably havent dueled or pvp'd that much. Most of the "cheese" revolves areound Proc sets. why? because in order for it to work, you rely on pure chance which effectively takes skill out of pvp. This has been well documented and substantially complained about. I'm honestly really confused that @paulsimonps and yourself @The_Outsider are implyingthat this CHEESE is a figment of people's imaginations.

There are real issues that a lot of people are just ignoring. scrolling through this thread you see a lot of people saying "yeah i agree with you but im still going to love BGs"

I can give you the perspective of those people you are describing that think BGs are going to be great.

They are people that have dealt not only with cheese/cancer builds, but also being outnumbered/zerged down by those builds. Battlegrounds will get rid of the outnumbered part. For example, many people consider radiant destruction to be a "cancer" ability because it is very effective when used by multiple players that are in large groups, but in a 4v4v4 scenario it isn't nearly as bad. It won't be perfect, but it'll be a better environment for small scale PvP.

Lucky28

Rickter wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Cancer and Cheese are words that players throw out to describe essentially any build or player that they do not approve of. These players have a self-made moral compass that is specific to and known only by them, and when it is violated by another player in any way, the violating player is subject to being called any number of video game expletives. For some it's zerging, proc sets, fear, or poisons, but really it could be anything.

no, "Cancer and Cheese" is not used that way. You want to ignore the multitude of complaints about sets like Tremorscale, Viper, Troll King, Pirate ETC ETC ETC tells me you probably havent dueled or pvp'd that much. Most of the "cheese" revolves areound Proc sets. why? because in order for it to work, you rely on pure chance which effectively takes skill out of pvp. This has been well documented and substantially complained about. I'm honestly really confused that @paulsimonps and yourself @The_Outsider are implyingthat this CHEESE is a figment of people's imaginations.

There are real issues that a lot of people are just ignoring. scrolling through this thread you see a lot of people saying "yeah i agree with you but im still going to love BGs"

that's actually not true. the problem with those proc sets is their proc chance is pretty much guaranteed, viper has a proc chance of 100% every three seconds stacking that with other sets that have high proc chance and you're literally letting your sets do all the work for you all of those proc sets need to have a 10% proc chance and it would be a lot more balanced.

SanTii.92

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Main issue about battlegrounds it actually going to be non of those stated by Op (which by the way they won't be, at all) but the lack of a proper matchaking system and hidden Elo scores for individual players, as and also a leaderboard that will reward grind instead of skilled play.

Kram8ion

Maybe campaign death on battlegrounds arrival

Durham

No - BGs are DOA

Lucky28 wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Honestly, i'm not planning on buying Morrowind in the first place the CP changes are turning me away from it, didn't really like no cp pvp it's kinda borning/easy imo. and now that tf will be getting closer to Azura's i'm kinda not feeling it.

so i dunno.

I feel like 300 CP is the sweet spot. PVP with 600+ CP leads to never ending fights, and No CP ends up being cheesed by poisons, proc sets and siege. I wish it could be balanced so we could have something in between. Itemization is also out of control since one tamriel.

really i think block is what needs to be addressed not overall sustain. i'm fine with people having infinite magicka/stamina just means you have to focus more on timing. but block is just.... if they're gonna remove anything i wish they'd remove the block cost reduction CP and nerf sturdy and leave the rest as is.

i mean my experience in no CP PvP is: you're either face rolling people or getting faction zerged. not that excited to go back to that.

How about changing block to 180 instead of 360 ... just a thought..

Asgari

No - BGs are DOA

Durham wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Honestly, i'm not planning on buying Morrowind in the first place the CP changes are turning me away from it, didn't really like no cp pvp it's kinda borning/easy imo. and now that tf will be getting closer to Azura's i'm kinda not feeling it.

so i dunno.

I feel like 300 CP is the sweet spot. PVP with 600+ CP leads to never ending fights, and No CP ends up being cheesed by poisons, proc sets and siege. I wish it could be balanced so we could have something in between. Itemization is also out of control since one tamriel.

really i think block is what needs to be addressed not overall sustain. i'm fine with people having infinite magicka/stamina just means you have to focus more on timing. but block is just.... if they're gonna remove anything i wish they'd remove the block cost reduction CP and nerf sturdy and leave the rest as is.

i mean my experience in no CP PvP is: you're either face rolling people or getting faction zerged. not that excited to go back to that.

How about changing block to 180 instead of 360 ... just a thought..

The last thing we need is eso trying to calculate what's 180 blockable and what is 180 not as the player blocking moves around with the enemy moving too.

paulsimonps

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Honestly, i'm not planning on buying Morrowind in the first place the CP changes are turning me away from it, didn't really like no cp pvp it's kinda borning/easy imo. and now that tf will be getting closer to Azura's i'm kinda not feeling it.

so i dunno.

I feel like 300 CP is the sweet spot. PVP with 600+ CP leads to never ending fights, and No CP ends up being cheesed by poisons, proc sets and siege. I wish it could be balanced so we could have something in between. Itemization is also out of control since one tamriel.

really i think block is what needs to be addressed not overall sustain. i'm fine with people having infinite magicka/stamina just means you have to focus more on timing. but block is just.... if they're gonna remove anything i wish they'd remove the block cost reduction CP and nerf sturdy and leave the rest as is.

i mean my experience in no CP PvP is: you're either face rolling people or getting faction zerged. not that excited to go back to that.

How about changing block to 180 instead of 360 ... just a thought..

The last thing we need is eso trying to calculate what's 180 blockable and what is 180 not as the player blocking moves around with the enemy moving too.

Agreed, the game is not designed for it and server load would be immense on something like that. It would be cool and reactive but sadly this is not an action combat game and something of that scale would be server intensive as hell and lag would be more of an issue than ever before.

Zinaroth

Rickter wrote: »

So what do you think? Take CP away, dont even think about it. Let's talk

POISONS
LAUNCH WARDEN OVER POWERED
PROC SETS
STACKED TEAMS
STREAMLINED FORCE FED META

So talk? You mention subjects that you percieve as being hindrances for battlegrounds succeeding but I don't see you actually touching upon them.

Rickter

Zinaroth wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

So what do you think? Take CP away, dont even think about it. Let's talk

POISONS
LAUNCH WARDEN OVER POWERED
PROC SETS
STACKED TEAMS
STREAMLINED FORCE FED META

So talk? You mention subjects that you percieve as being hindrances for battlegrounds succeeding but I don't see you actually touching upon them.

This isnt that kind of thread. Feel free to start a "Ok, Battlegrounds are a bad idea because of the problems Rickter listed so how do you propose to fix it" sister-thread.

Rickter

The_Outsider wrote: »

You didn't read what I wrote. I articulated that these term(s) are completely relative and arbitrarily assigned to whatever mechanic, set, build, or playstlye any given person isn't down with. Not that they don't exist. Cheese is indeed real, it's just completely up to user interpretation. It's the same with you and exactly my point: You disapprove of "Tremer, Viper, Troll King ECT ECT ECT" and so label them, "Cheese." That's your definition that you came up with. My definition is anyone who wears more than 1 proc set is Cheesy. So Viper + Tremer. It's specific to me. I made it up. I'll bet Paul has another idea about what is Cancerous or Cheesy. It is exactly this phenomenon I described accurately above.

ok, fair enough. but like you said, cheese and cancer exist and we all have a ballpark idea of what they are. my issue is you and paul were employing word-twisting when you knew exactly wtf i was saying. youve got cheese builds that will become more evident in a smaller 4v4v4 setting.

NBrookus

Durham wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Honestly, i'm not planning on buying Morrowind in the first place the CP changes are turning me away from it, didn't really like no cp pvp it's kinda borning/easy imo. and now that tf will be getting closer to Azura's i'm kinda not feeling it.

so i dunno.

I feel like 300 CP is the sweet spot. PVP with 600+ CP leads to never ending fights, and No CP ends up being cheesed by poisons, proc sets and siege. I wish it could be balanced so we could have something in between. Itemization is also out of control since one tamriel.

really i think block is what needs to be addressed not overall sustain. i'm fine with people having infinite magicka/stamina just means you have to focus more on timing. but block is just.... if they're gonna remove anything i wish they'd remove the block cost reduction CP and nerf sturdy and leave the rest as is.

i mean my experience in no CP PvP is: you're either face rolling people or getting faction zerged. not that excited to go back to that.

How about changing block to 180 instead of 360 ... just a thought..

That's not this game. That game is CU. Full player collision, individual projectile tracking, players can intercept damage for other players, friendly heals requiring targeting. And while it is going into beta this year (they pinkie swear), I really think they are writing a game engine they plan to resell.

Minno

Rickter wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

So what do you think? Take CP away, dont even think about it. Let's talk

POISONS
LAUNCH WARDEN OVER POWERED
PROC SETS
STACKED TEAMS
STREAMLINED FORCE FED META

So talk? You mention subjects that you percieve as being hindrances for battlegrounds succeeding but I don't see you actually touching upon them.

This isnt that kind of thread. Feel free to start a "Ok, Battlegrounds are a bad idea because of the problems Rickter listed so how do you propose to fix it" sister-thread.

Well as far as I know, no one has started a conversation on balance for 4v4v4 play. It's not like we don't have the ability to start one, we are just too lazy to distill our cyro experiences to talk about some issues that extend beyond "poisons/CP inflation".

With two months in till launch, we need that serious thread discussion soon.

Derra

Every time i play i see people absolutely getting stomped.

I feel that for people that already run out of resources on CP campaigns while their friends around them get demolished bgs are going to be living hell.

The synergies people are able to create in dedicated group builds are brutal and anyone not willing to invest and learn a lot in that department will probably have a horrible time in bgs.
Those being tested invite only won´t help either most likely

kadar

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Rickter wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

You didn't read what I wrote. I articulated that these term(s) are completely relative and arbitrarily assigned to whatever mechanic, set, build, or playstlye any given person isn't down with. Not that they don't exist. Cheese is indeed real, it's just completely up to user interpretation. It's the same with you and exactly my point: You disapprove of "Tremer, Viper, Troll King ECT ECT ECT" and so label them, "Cheese." That's your definition that you came up with. My definition is anyone who wears more than 1 proc set is Cheesy. So Viper + Tremer. It's specific to me. I made it up. I'll bet Paul has another idea about what is Cancerous or Cheesy. It is exactly this phenomenon I described accurately above.

ok, fair enough. but like you said, cheese and cancer exist and we all have a ballpark idea of what they are. my issue is you and paul were employing word-twisting when you knew exactly wtf i was saying. youve got cheese builds that will become more evident in a smaller 4v4v4 setting.

Originally I was simply responding to a question Paul asked, to define those casually thrown about terms, it wasn't directed at you or anyone else in particular. I do agree there will be much cheesing, by any definition, it's simply in conclusion where I differ.

between Warden OPness and cheese proc sets, you'll never have a good time....
Im calling it: Battlegrounds = Dead On Arrival

Winnamine

Rickter wrote: »

I wrote this in another thread and i dont want to derail and i'm legitimately wondering what people's opinions are about this:

Rickter wrote: »

Battlegrounds will be fun for a very short time.

between Warden OPness and cheese proc sets, you'll never have a good time.

It'll turn into very streamlined meta builds/sets and IF you want your team to not get "EXPOSED" in 10 seconds flat, you will have to conform to that meta so its unkillable dmg dealing tanks versus unkillable dmg dealing tanks.

Im calling it: Battlegrounds = Dead On Arrival

So what do you think? Take CP away, dont even think about it. Let's talk

POISONS
LAUNCH WARDEN OVER POWERED
PROC SETS
STACKED TEAMS
STREAMLINED FORCE FED META

In the current (or even what we know about BGs now) state of ESO PvP - can you honestly say BGs will be a welcome and awesome addition to the game?

UPDATE: Im not adamantly against Battlegrounds despite what the knee jerk fanboys presumably think. I was asking a legitimate question based on the current and known about the future state of things. I was genuinely curious whether players thought BG was a good idea given the issues already present in the game that i listed in my OP.

I stop talking about CP - like my question explicitly stated to take the CP factor out of the equation and look at the OTHER compounded issues facing small v small arena combat.

@Lexxypwns honestly lays out exactly what my concern is. maybe you all like his tone better than mine, but this is the truth in my eyes, whatever way you want to slice it:

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Obviously this kind of *** is gonna be a problem though. You, I, and anyone with a brain can see it. Its not like cyrodiil where you can pick a different keep to fight at or zerg them down. I'm not advocating zerging, but let's face it, that's how PUGS compete with skilled players atm, in battlegrounds you can at most outnumber someone 2-1 and even then you have to worry about getting caught in aoe crossfire while trying to beat the more organized group.

How about an option C?
C. Let's wait and see how they go, since most of us do not have the experience or information necessary to make any real judgement yet.

You do seem hellbent on trashing something you haven't even tried yet.
I see your concerns, but you seem very sure that ZoS hasn't thought of any of that...that they don't know that they'll have players of different skill and experience levels who will all want to be able to play and have fun in BGs.

Rickter

Winnamine wrote: »

How about an option C?
C. Let's wait and see how they go, since most of us do not have the experience or information necessary to make any real judgement yet.

You do seem hellbent on trashing something you haven't even tried yet.
I see your concerns, but you seem very sure that ZoS hasn't thought of any of that...that they don't know that they'll have players of different skill and experience levels who will all want to be able to play and have fun in BGs.

Like i said in my OP, im totally for queued BGs. I am highly apprehensive due to the glaring issues we already face and the inevitable ones that will come when introducing a new class.

Stop turning this into an anti-BG thread. you and everyone else got far too defensive, far too easily. someone threatened your fairy tale and you jumped at the throat.

I dont doubt ZOS has thought about these concerns. and from what weve seen so far, can you honestly tell me ZOS will have them addressed by June 6th? Im looking at the actual track record. not the hope.

not a single person that has defended BGs can tell me ZOS will address the rampant imbalance by the time BGs will release. and thats where my concern lies. so what will happen is BGs will hit and they will be very popular for about a month. then the pugs will give up because anyone with youtube will copy the cheese builds that will inevitably surface and all that will be left are competitive premades. then that will slowly bleed out too.

ZOS will push a BIG class balance patch months down the road which will cause players to revisit BGs and they will be the ultimate deciding factor. But as far as how things are looking right this instant? it's going to be another Imperial City.

Alpheu5

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Durham wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Honestly, i'm not planning on buying Morrowind in the first place the CP changes are turning me away from it, didn't really like no cp pvp it's kinda borning/easy imo. and now that tf will be getting closer to Azura's i'm kinda not feeling it.

so i dunno.

I feel like 300 CP is the sweet spot. PVP with 600+ CP leads to never ending fights, and No CP ends up being cheesed by poisons, proc sets and siege. I wish it could be balanced so we could have something in between. Itemization is also out of control since one tamriel.

really i think block is what needs to be addressed not overall sustain. i'm fine with people having infinite magicka/stamina just means you have to focus more on timing. but block is just.... if they're gonna remove anything i wish they'd remove the block cost reduction CP and nerf sturdy and leave the rest as is.

i mean my experience in no CP PvP is: you're either face rolling people or getting faction zerged. not that excited to go back to that.

How about changing block to 180 instead of 360 ... just a thought..

Tornado blocking, the new meta.

Winnamine

Rickter wrote: »

Winnamine wrote: »

How about an option C?
C. Let's wait and see how they go, since most of us do not have the experience or information necessary to make any real judgement yet.

You do seem hellbent on trashing something you haven't even tried yet.
I see your concerns, but you seem very sure that ZoS hasn't thought of any of that...that they don't know that they'll have players of different skill and experience levels who will all want to be able to play and have fun in BGs.

Like i said in my OP, im totally for queued BGs. I am highly apprehensive due to the glaring issues we already face and the inevitable ones that will come when introducing a new class.

Stop turning this into an anti-BG thread. you and everyone else got far too defensive, far too easily. someone threatened your fairy tale and you jumped at the throat.

I dont doubt ZOS has thought about these concerns. and from what weve seen so far, can you honestly tell me ZOS will have them addressed by June 6th? Im looking at the actual track record. not the hope.

not a single person that has defended BGs can tell me ZOS will address the rampant imbalance by the time BGs will release. and thats where my concern lies. so what will happen is BGs will hit and they will be very popular for about a month. then the pugs will give up because anyone with youtube will copy the cheese builds that will inevitably surface and all that will be left are competitive premades. then that will slowly bleed out too.

ZOS will push a BIG class balance patch months down the road which will cause players to revisit BGs and they will be the ultimate deciding factor. But as far as how things are looking right this instant? it's going to be another Imperial City.

I don't have any "fairytale" of BGs. I simply see no need to have doomsday threads about something we know next to nothing about yet. The things haven't even made it to PTS yet, so not only do we not know how they're planning on running them now, whatever they do have planned could easily change after the PTS.

By the way, it's a mark of just how anti-BGs you really are that you consider a let's-just-wait-and-see response as the "far too defensive" response of someone whose "fairytale of BGs has been threatened."

Joy_Division

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Rickter wrote: »

Winnamine wrote: »

How about an option C?
C. Let's wait and see how they go, since most of us do not have the experience or information necessary to make any real judgement yet.

You do seem hellbent on trashing something you haven't even tried yet.
I see your concerns, but you seem very sure that ZoS hasn't thought of any of that...that they don't know that they'll have players of different skill and experience levels who will all want to be able to play and have fun in BGs.

Like i said in my OP, im totally for queued BGs. I am highly apprehensive due to the glaring issues we already face and the inevitable ones that will come when introducing a new class.

Stop turning this into an anti-BG thread. you and everyone else got far too defensive, far too easily. someone threatened your fairy tale and you jumped at the throat.

I dont doubt ZOS has thought about these concerns. and from what weve seen so far, can you honestly tell me ZOS will have them addressed by June 6th? Im looking at the actual track record. not the hope.

not a single person that has defended BGs can tell me ZOS will address the rampant imbalance by the time BGs will release. and thats where my concern lies. so what will happen is BGs will hit and they will be very popular for about a month. then the pugs will give up because anyone with youtube will copy the cheese builds that will inevitably surface and all that will be left are competitive premades. then that will slowly bleed out too.

ZOS will push a BIG class balance patch months down the road which will cause players to revisit BGs and they will be the ultimate deciding factor. But as far as how things are looking right this instant? it's going to be another Imperial City.

You tell everyone they are far too defensive, far too easily. Have you ever considered they act that way because you just started out far too offensive with ridiculous hyperbole?

You say not a single person that has defend BGs can tell you ZoS will address imbalances. Well no S***, ZoS hasn't told me what they plan on doing the next patch.

You're claiming the Warden will be OP; you haven;t played, it, you haven;t seen it, you have done nothing with it...aside from looking at some grainy photos from a version that will probably be changed come launch. And not everyone has drawn the same conclusion as you that the warden will be OP; if anything, I have seen a lot of posters pointing to how its more of a support class than a powerhouse.

I fail to see how being a Chicken Little and claiming the sky is falling is very productive. You're asking us to comment on stuff we have zero clue; the PTS has not been released. We have ad nasuem have told ZoS the imbalance issues with 1 Tamriel and Homestead.

One thing I will say is no matter what does come out, things will have to be changed. Introducing an entire new class is going to require adjustments. Also the game was designed around massive AvAvA and now all of a sudden they are trying to make it 4v4v4; again adjustments are going to be necessary. Can we please stop saying the Sky is Falling and they are doomed to suck even if the first PTS shows that many adjustments are necessary?

FENGRUSH

People dont know enough about BGs to defend accusations based off of assumptions. The people that do know are under NDA. Either way - changes will be made before it goes live, and still it wont be perfect.

I hear on stream a lot warden will be OP based off skills observed. I think it has certain strengths and will likely suffer weaknesses (these are tough to observe until thrown into open world). It will do well in group because it has good group utility that other classes simply do not have, and EVERYTHING can work in a proper group design. But I always point people to Nightblades for an example - if you saw their skill set (especially the passives and buffs they have access to) youd say that class is broken on paper. Put it into combat and you will see it suffer many weaknesses and ultimately it cannot utilize all of those amazing buffs and skills in a reasonable build. Why would warden be any different? Do people legitimately think youll be able to access all the super amazing buffs and skills and still have weapon/non-class lines necessary to stay afloat? Basic builder knowledge 101 there.

CatchMeTrolling

To be honest the game is mostly group play, so I don't see why a class being good at group play still wouldn't put them over the top. If that's the consensus we've reached then I don't want to hear anyone complaining about a magplar in groups ever again because you'd contradict yourself.

Rickter

Guys. . .

idk where the miscommunication came from. This isnt "doomsday" its, what'd you call it @FENGRUSH ? a "reality check"? - its simply listing the state of things and accepting that some major issues wont get fixed when BGs drop in June. Then me asking the community whether you think its a good idea to drop BGs in June when the glaring issues havent been fixed.

I never said BGs should NEVER come out.

the fact is, there are some serious issues and they will not be fixed. so, do you still think its a good idea?

The big thing here is i dont want BGs to turn into another IC. because Lord knows people cant stop complaining about IC.

montiferus

Rickter wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Pre-mades are going to be an absolute nightmare though

so in Cyrodiil overworld, these "premades" are relegated to "small scale" groups and gankers. you can combat this by running in a larger group (for the most part) in BGs there is no countermeasure. what happens when premades farm BGs for the rewards and leaderboards and your pugging experience goes down the drain?

Just to be clear are you stating the "counter" to beating small organized groups is by outnumbering them?

AhPook_Is_Here

One thing I take away from this thread is some people get a lot of anxiety out of the uncertainty of change. If you play because you have to play and not because you have fun I can see getting anxious about this kind of thing. It will be what it will be, play it, have fun with it, or don't.