Battlegrounds: Dead on Arrival?

Derra

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

The reality is that "no CP" is like pulling the plug on a lot of the troll builds. It's really that simple, pulling the plug. Or at least greatly toning it down. Maybe one day CP will be very balanced. ZOS surely is capable of achieving that. But will that be the case when the buzzer sounds on June 6th?

And most likely it´s pulling the plug on twice as many "normal" builds that work in a CP environment.

I´d simply would have prefered ZOS working on the CP system in general (and i´ve been in favor of this for ages now) instead of simply fixing CP with nonCP.
That´s only going to lead to direct nonCP ability balancing backfiring on PVE or CP cyrodiil.

It creates balancing problems in the future where there could have been none.

Joy_Division

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

LeifErickson wrote: »

Are you seriously calling warden op before it's even out? How many times has this community been absolutely *** about balance in this game? I'm going to try to think of all the times that I remember: heavy armor (people wanted zos to revert the heavy armor changes because they felt it was a NERF), all weapon ults (everyone complained the stam ults were so op while the magicka ones were trash, especially destro ult and 2h ult), magicka sorc/shield change (lol), stam sorc (people, including Fengrush, thought Wrobel nerfed stam sorc instead of buffed them), Templar house (or was that one more of an inside joke?), rushed ceremony change, plus anything I missed.

This person gets it.

As much as forum-goers like to make fun of Wrobel and ZoS, the ESO community probably has been wrong more often than the devs.

My biggest concern is match-making.

I've never played an MMO before or games like Overwatch. How exactly does the game figure out who to match? Because 10% of the PvP community could probably beat 4 randoms teamed together by themselves ... so what happens when that 10% joins with 3 other 10%ers? Will there be a way the 12 people who are really good and experienced at PvP could set up a match and compete against each other? I kind of think that would be ideal.

paulsimonps

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Fengrush made a very Bicepstacular point. Each "flavor" of PvP is a different animal. What works in open world definitely doesn't fly in duels more often than not. I would expect the same to be true with Battlegrounds. If no CP is the safe bet, then absolutely ZOS should go down that route. Either that or implement and ensure a serious balancing between the classes.

In open world Sribes for example would gank you, one second, it was over. But if you caught him and he couldn't escape he was pretty squishy. He'd rather backpedal and vanish than fight back. The flip side was when Sribes and his buddies had those crazy troll four-six person groups. The one where they all fed off each other and were many times almost impossible too take down without a much larger group.

Now take Sribes and his buddies, put them in battlegrounds, without serious balancing, CP, the whole nine yards. Take away the ability to have more of your alliance help take them down. Stuff all that into a small scale arena, and let's see how many will enjoy battlegrounds.

The reality is that "no CP" is like pulling the plug on a lot of the troll builds. It's really that simple, pulling the plug. Or at least greatly toning it down. Maybe one day CP will be very balanced. ZOS surely is capable of achieving that. But will that be the case when the buzzer sounds on June 6th?

Edit: Quite frankly I personally home Trueflame. The CP in open world feels ok to me, even with troll builds around. Issue with TF is game performance. That being said I would definitely prefer no CP dueling and if I were to make assumptions, I'd be in no CP battlegrounds.

As someone that played Battlegrounds with and without CP I prefered noCP. You could actually kill people and the fights weren't 15min of only like 5 deaths total. That's just not any fun. But you could kill them and they could kill you and skill was more of a factor and you could get a clear winner at the end and not just a few points a team.

Publius_Scipio

paulsimonps wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Fengrush made a very Bicepstacular point. Each "flavor" of PvP is a different animal. What works in open world definitely doesn't fly in duels more often than not. I would expect the same to be true with Battlegrounds. If no CP is the safe bet, then absolutely ZOS should go down that route. Either that or implement and ensure a serious balancing between the classes.

In open world Sribes for example would gank you, one second, it was over. But if you caught him and he couldn't escape he was pretty squishy. He'd rather backpedal and vanish than fight back. The flip side was when Sribes and his buddies had those crazy troll four-six person groups. The one where they all fed off each other and were many times almost impossible too take down without a much larger group.

Now take Sribes and his buddies, put them in battlegrounds, without serious balancing, CP, the whole nine yards. Take away the ability to have more of your alliance help take them down. Stuff all that into a small scale arena, and let's see how many will enjoy battlegrounds.

The reality is that "no CP" is like pulling the plug on a lot of the troll builds. It's really that simple, pulling the plug. Or at least greatly toning it down. Maybe one day CP will be very balanced. ZOS surely is capable of achieving that. But will that be the case when the buzzer sounds on June 6th?

Edit: Quite frankly I personally home Trueflame. The CP in open world feels ok to me, even with troll builds around. Issue with TF is game performance. That being said I would definitely prefer no CP dueling and if I were to make assumptions, I'd be in no CP battlegrounds.

As someone that played Battlegrounds with and without CP I prefered noCP. You could actually kill people and the fights weren't 15min of only like 5 deaths total. That's just not any fun. But you could kill them and they could kill you and skill was more of a factor and you could get a clear winner at the end and not just a few points a team.

Well I haven't tried battleground yet, but during the no CP pvp performance test I did run into a few of the players with the crazy builds in Trueflame. The ones that can 1vX, never stop running, etc. I saw them struggle with 1v2 against max level (I'm assuming average to above average) players. They were off the "roids" for one week lol.

IcyDeadPeople

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

paulsimonps wrote: »

As someone that played Battlegrounds with and without CP I prefered noCP. You could actually kill people and the fights weren't 15min of only like 5 deaths total. That's just not any fun. But you could kill them and they could kill you and skill was more of a factor and you could get a clear winner at the end and not just a few points a team.

You mean at the PAX demo they gave you the option to queue for CP or non-CP match?

paulsimonps

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

As someone that played Battlegrounds with and without CP I prefered noCP. You could actually kill people and the fights weren't 15min of only like 5 deaths total. That's just not any fun. But you could kill them and they could kill you and skill was more of a factor and you could get a clear winner at the end and not just a few points a team.

You mean at the PAX demo they gave you the option to queue for CP or non-CP match?

No I was one of the 12 people that got a visit to ZOS's office in Baltimore and playtested the warden, battlegrounds and the new trial. And we tested battlegrounds with and without CP

Ashamray

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Yes of course. Whiners even in this tremendous pvp format see only disbalance problems. DIFGUFTINK!

IcyDeadPeople

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

paulsimonps wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

As someone that played Battlegrounds with and without CP I prefered noCP. You could actually kill people and the fights weren't 15min of only like 5 deaths total. That's just not any fun. But you could kill them and they could kill you and skill was more of a factor and you could get a clear winner at the end and not just a few points a team.

You mean at the PAX demo they gave you the option to queue for CP or non-CP match?

No I was one of the 12 people that got a visit to ZOS's office in Baltimore and playtested the warden, battlegrounds and the new trial. And we tested battlegrounds with and without CP

Nice! What did you think of the warden? If that is under NDA don't answer

Did they provide a lot of different armor sets for you to try your own build ideas?

paulsimonps

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

As someone that played Battlegrounds with and without CP I prefered noCP. You could actually kill people and the fights weren't 15min of only like 5 deaths total. That's just not any fun. But you could kill them and they could kill you and skill was more of a factor and you could get a clear winner at the end and not just a few points a team.

You mean at the PAX demo they gave you the option to queue for CP or non-CP match?

No I was one of the 12 people that got a visit to ZOS's office in Baltimore and playtested the warden, battlegrounds and the new trial. And we tested battlegrounds with and without CP

Nice! What did you think of the warden? If that is under NDA don't answer

Did they provide a lot of different armor sets for you to try your own build ideas?

I loved it and will be making both a tank and a DPS of it, and I heavily advised my wife to make healer and a dps. They are good all around, some skill shot abilities that will take getting used to but it is a nice class. Competitive in all areas without being over powered. Its a great tank for example but I would rather have them as off tank than main tank, that still would be a DK in my books. And I would also love to have 1 templar healer and 1 warden healer but I would not want to go 2 warden healers but its still of course extremely viable to go 2 templar healers. So yea, they are got but not OP. And yea we got to pick ANY set we wanted out of what was already in the game and customize it exactly like we wanted it to be.

Rickter

Im not adamantly against Battlegrounds despite what the knee jerk fanboys presumably think. I was asking a legitimate question based on the current and known about the future state of things. I was genuinely curious whether players thought BG was a good idea given the issues already present in the game that i listed in my OP.

I stop talking about CP - like my question explicitly stated to take the CP factor out of the equation and look at the OTHER compounded issues facing small v small arena combat.

@Lexxypwns honestly lays out exactly what my concern is. maybe you all like his tone better than mine, but this is the truth in my eyes, whatever way you want to slice it:

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Obviously this kind of *** is gonna be a problem though. You, I, and anyone with a brain can see it. Its not like cyrodiil where you can pick a different keep to fight at or zerg them down. I'm not advocating zerging, but let's face it, that's how PUGS compete with skilled players atm, in battlegrounds you can at most outnumber someone 2-1 and even then you have to worry about getting caught in aoe crossfire while trying to beat the more organized group.

zyk

Joy_Division wrote: »

As much as forum-goers like to make fun of Wrobel and ZoS, the ESO community probably has been wrong more often than the devs.

Well, of course. The vocal ESO community is composed of at least thousands of people. Depending on who and when you listen, the "community" is wrong about almost everything -- except about what we individually prefer.

That does not, at all, validate the poor choices ZOS has made. We know they're poor because ESO PVP has not been successful.

We may all disagree about what is presently good and bad about ESO PVP, but I think there's a consensus that it's worse than it was a year ago.

Lexxypwns

No - BGs are DOA

Rickter wrote: »

Im not adamantly against Battlegrounds despite what the knee jerk fanboys presumably think. I was asking a legitimate question based on the current and known about the future state of things. I was genuinely curious whether players thought BG was a good idea given the issues already present in the game that i listed in my OP.

I stop talking about CP - like my question explicitly stated to take the CP factor out of the equation and look at the OTHER compounded issues facing small v small arena combat.

@Lexxypwns honestly lays out exactly what my concern is. maybe you all like his tone better than mine, but this is the truth in my eyes, whatever way you want to slice it:

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Obviously this kind of *** is gonna be a problem though. You, I, and anyone with a brain can see it. Its not like cyrodiil where you can pick a different keep to fight at or zerg them down. I'm not advocating zerging, but let's face it, that's how PUGS compete with skilled players atm, in battlegrounds you can at most outnumber someone 2-1 and even then you have to worry about getting caught in aoe crossfire while trying to beat the more organized group.

I mean, realistically, if we just wanted to wreck pugs we could do that in cyro. There needs to be things to prevent a pre-made going up against 2 Pug groups AND we need the ability to set up custom matches.

Derra

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Im not adamantly against Battlegrounds despite what the knee jerk fanboys presumably think. I was asking a legitimate question based on the current and known about the future state of things. I was genuinely curious whether players thought BG was a good idea given the issues already present in the game that i listed in my OP.

I stop talking about CP - like my question explicitly stated to take the CP factor out of the equation and look at the OTHER compounded issues facing small v small arena combat.

@Lexxypwns honestly lays out exactly what my concern is. maybe you all like his tone better than mine, but this is the truth in my eyes, whatever way you want to slice it:

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Obviously this kind of *** is gonna be a problem though. You, I, and anyone with a brain can see it. Its not like cyrodiil where you can pick a different keep to fight at or zerg them down. I'm not advocating zerging, but let's face it, that's how PUGS compete with skilled players atm, in battlegrounds you can at most outnumber someone 2-1 and even then you have to worry about getting caught in aoe crossfire while trying to beat the more organized group.

I mean, realistically, if we just wanted to wreck pugs we could do that in cyro. There needs to be things to prevent a pre-made going up against 2 Pug groups AND we need the ability to set up custom matches.

Given the skill disparity even in premade groups we need matchmaking for premades aswell.

From my personal experience what hurts battlegrounds the most is dedicated experienced groups destroying newly formed groups by interested but inexperienced players - because it´s a much steeper learning curve to l2p in a group than just to l2p a class alone.

paulsimonps

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Im not adamantly against Battlegrounds despite what the knee jerk fanboys presumably think. I was asking a legitimate question based on the current and known about the future state of things. I was genuinely curious whether players thought BG was a good idea given the issues already present in the game that i listed in my OP.

I stop talking about CP - like my question explicitly stated to take the CP factor out of the equation and look at the OTHER compounded issues facing small v small arena combat.

@Lexxypwns honestly lays out exactly what my concern is. maybe you all like his tone better than mine, but this is the truth in my eyes, whatever way you want to slice it:

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Obviously this kind of *** is gonna be a problem though. You, I, and anyone with a brain can see it. Its not like cyrodiil where you can pick a different keep to fight at or zerg them down. I'm not advocating zerging, but let's face it, that's how PUGS compete with skilled players atm, in battlegrounds you can at most outnumber someone 2-1 and even then you have to worry about getting caught in aoe crossfire while trying to beat the more organized group.

I mean, realistically, if we just wanted to wreck pugs we could do that in cyro. There needs to be things to prevent a pre-made going up against 2 Pug groups AND we need the ability to set up custom matches.

As far as I know the system is going to do the best of its ability to put premade vs premade. Sometimes it won't happen but I have faith in that it will most of the time, depends on how much premades we get vs how much pugs we will get.

Also the custom games sounds terrible, UNLESS, you make them give no AP or Tokens. Cause otherwise its gonna be ripe for abuse. You could grind tokens all day just making premades custom games with your friends. I would rather it didn't exist at all

CatchMeTrolling

Well in game's like Overwatch, PUG's get owned by organized groups. That's usually how it goes in any game, rarely see it executed perfectly.

Rickter

paulsimonps wrote: »

As far as I know the system is going to do the best of its ability to put premade vs premade. Sometimes it won't happen but I have faith in that it will most of the time

This statement right here sounds like blind fanboyism. Look i love ZOS and i love ESO. trust me i have 204 days logged on my character when i type /played

But we already have an example of ZOS capability when it comes to a queue system. DUNGEON FINDER.

and that was a mess for a long time and arguably still is.

so how the hell in good faith can you even make a statement like you did? we have examples of the broken systems and abuse by players i listed in my OP. we already have examples. why do you think on June 6th those problems and examples will become null and void?

paulsimonps

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Rickter wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

As far as I know the system is going to do the best of its ability to put premade vs premade. Sometimes it won't happen but I have faith in that it will most of the time

This statement right here sounds like blind fanboyism. Look i love ZOS and i love ESO. trust me i have 204 days logged on my character when i type /played

But we already have an example of ZOS capability when it comes to a queue system. DUNGEON FINDER.

and that was a mess for a long time and arguably still is.

so how the hell in good faith can you even make a statement like you did? we have examples of the broken systems and abuse by players i listed in my OP. we already have examples. why do you think on June 6th those problems and examples will become null and void?

I'm a positive guy in general but you can rant away all you like, idgaf. And in regards to the Dungeons finder, yes it has issues, but biggest issue it had over the years was people thinking it was S so no one used it. As well there is a huge shortage of tanks and healers in comparison to DPS and always have been and most likely always will. I mean I tank and I know I get in in a matter of seconds 90% of the time and never have issues but of course as a DPS I can expect to wait for 30-60min if I am lucky.

I saw and heard good things at my visit to ZOS so I do have faith. But of course that will just make you call me more of a fan boy. Am I becoming just like Deltia? I get what he meant now by how his optimism always makes people call him a sellout fanboy.

Publius_Scipio

paulsimonps wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

As someone that played Battlegrounds with and without CP I prefered noCP. You could actually kill people and the fights weren't 15min of only like 5 deaths total. That's just not any fun. But you could kill them and they could kill you and skill was more of a factor and you could get a clear winner at the end and not just a few points a team.

You mean at the PAX demo they gave you the option to queue for CP or non-CP match?

No I was one of the 12 people that got a visit to ZOS's office in Baltimore and playtested the warden, battlegrounds and the new trial. And we tested battlegrounds with and without CP

And I assume you told ZOS that you preferred no CP battlegrounds?

Lexxypwns

No - BGs are DOA

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Im not adamantly against Battlegrounds despite what the knee jerk fanboys presumably think. I was asking a legitimate question based on the current and known about the future state of things. I was genuinely curious whether players thought BG was a good idea given the issues already present in the game that i listed in my OP.

I stop talking about CP - like my question explicitly stated to take the CP factor out of the equation and look at the OTHER compounded issues facing small v small arena combat.

@Lexxypwns honestly lays out exactly what my concern is. maybe you all like his tone better than mine, but this is the truth in my eyes, whatever way you want to slice it:

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Obviously this kind of *** is gonna be a problem though. You, I, and anyone with a brain can see it. Its not like cyrodiil where you can pick a different keep to fight at or zerg them down. I'm not advocating zerging, but let's face it, that's how PUGS compete with skilled players atm, in battlegrounds you can at most outnumber someone 2-1 and even then you have to worry about getting caught in aoe crossfire while trying to beat the more organized group.

I mean, realistically, if we just wanted to wreck pugs we could do that in cyro. There needs to be things to prevent a pre-made going up against 2 Pug groups AND we need the ability to set up custom matches.

Given the skill disparity even in premade groups we need matchmaking for premades aswell.

From my personal experience what hurts battlegrounds the most is dedicated experienced groups destroying newly formed groups by interested but inexperienced players - because it´s a much steeper learning curve to l2p in a group than just to l2p a class alone.

100% agree, we need a good MMR, but even with the best MMR ever, putting 12 players of similar skill into a competition with 2 teams of pugs and 1 premade the premade should still completely stomp. The two things have to go hand in hand. I don't suggest inflating MMR based on being grouped though, just don't allow groups of 4 to fight solo que people.

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Well in game's like Overwatch, PUG's get owned by organized groups. That's usually how it goes in any game, rarely see it executed perfectly.

In overwatch you don't get 6 solo players matched up against pre-made 6 man teams in competitive. Furthermore, unlike ESO, overwatch has a big roster and a lot of them are capable of an individual carry against an opposing team of 6.

CatchMeTrolling

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Im not adamantly against Battlegrounds despite what the knee jerk fanboys presumably think. I was asking a legitimate question based on the current and known about the future state of things. I was genuinely curious whether players thought BG was a good idea given the issues already present in the game that i listed in my OP.

I stop talking about CP - like my question explicitly stated to take the CP factor out of the equation and look at the OTHER compounded issues facing small v small arena combat.

@Lexxypwns honestly lays out exactly what my concern is. maybe you all like his tone better than mine, but this is the truth in my eyes, whatever way you want to slice it:

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Obviously this kind of *** is gonna be a problem though. You, I, and anyone with a brain can see it. Its not like cyrodiil where you can pick a different keep to fight at or zerg them down. I'm not advocating zerging, but let's face it, that's how PUGS compete with skilled players atm, in battlegrounds you can at most outnumber someone 2-1 and even then you have to worry about getting caught in aoe crossfire while trying to beat the more organized group.

I mean, realistically, if we just wanted to wreck pugs we could do that in cyro. There needs to be things to prevent a pre-made going up against 2 Pug groups AND we need the ability to set up custom matches.

Given the skill disparity even in premade groups we need matchmaking for premades aswell.

From my personal experience what hurts battlegrounds the most is dedicated experienced groups destroying newly formed groups by interested but inexperienced players - because it´s a much steeper learning curve to l2p in a group than just to l2p a class alone.

100% agree, we need a good MMR, but even with the best MMR ever, putting 12 players of similar skill into a competition with 2 teams of pugs and 1 premade the premade should still completely stomp. The two things have to go hand in hand. I don't suggest inflating MMR based on being grouped though, just don't allow groups of 4 to fight solo que people.

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Well in game's like Overwatch, PUG's get owned by organized groups. That's usually how it goes in any game, rarely see it executed perfectly.

In overwatch you don't get 6 solo players matched up against pre-made 6 man teams in competitive. Furthermore, unlike ESO, overwatch has a big roster and a lot of them are capable of an individual carry against an opposing team of 6.

You most certainly get matched up against groups or teams of solo player's. Not every group is made up of 6 , some consist of 4 maybe even just 3 and the game has to make up for that. It definitely isn't always group v group at all lol play competitive every day.

Lexxypwns

No - BGs are DOA

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Im not adamantly against Battlegrounds despite what the knee jerk fanboys presumably think. I was asking a legitimate question based on the current and known about the future state of things. I was genuinely curious whether players thought BG was a good idea given the issues already present in the game that i listed in my OP.

I stop talking about CP - like my question explicitly stated to take the CP factor out of the equation and look at the OTHER compounded issues facing small v small arena combat.

@Lexxypwns honestly lays out exactly what my concern is. maybe you all like his tone better than mine, but this is the truth in my eyes, whatever way you want to slice it:

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Obviously this kind of *** is gonna be a problem though. You, I, and anyone with a brain can see it. Its not like cyrodiil where you can pick a different keep to fight at or zerg them down. I'm not advocating zerging, but let's face it, that's how PUGS compete with skilled players atm, in battlegrounds you can at most outnumber someone 2-1 and even then you have to worry about getting caught in aoe crossfire while trying to beat the more organized group.

I mean, realistically, if we just wanted to wreck pugs we could do that in cyro. There needs to be things to prevent a pre-made going up against 2 Pug groups AND we need the ability to set up custom matches.

Given the skill disparity even in premade groups we need matchmaking for premades aswell.

From my personal experience what hurts battlegrounds the most is dedicated experienced groups destroying newly formed groups by interested but inexperienced players - because it´s a much steeper learning curve to l2p in a group than just to l2p a class alone.

100% agree, we need a good MMR, but even with the best MMR ever, putting 12 players of similar skill into a competition with 2 teams of pugs and 1 premade the premade should still completely stomp. The two things have to go hand in hand. I don't suggest inflating MMR based on being grouped though, just don't allow groups of 4 to fight solo que people.

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Well in game's like Overwatch, PUG's get owned by organized groups. That's usually how it goes in any game, rarely see it executed perfectly.

In overwatch you don't get 6 solo players matched up against pre-made 6 man teams in competitive. Furthermore, unlike ESO, overwatch has a big roster and a lot of them are capable of an individual carry against an opposing team of 6.

You most certainly get matched up against groups or teams of solo player's. Not every group is made up of 6 , some consist of 4 maybe even just 3 and the game has to make up for that. It definitely isn't always group v group at all lol play competitive every day.

I've never faced a team of more than 3 players without at least a pre-made duo on my team. That being said, the strength of synergy on ESO is vastly more than on Overwatch. No two heroes have enough synergy to render an opposing team incapable of winning.

What tier do you play in? I'm plat on PC and gold Xbox.

CatchMeTrolling

Lexxypwns wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Im not adamantly against Battlegrounds despite what the knee jerk fanboys presumably think. I was asking a legitimate question based on the current and known about the future state of things. I was genuinely curious whether players thought BG was a good idea given the issues already present in the game that i listed in my OP.

I stop talking about CP - like my question explicitly stated to take the CP factor out of the equation and look at the OTHER compounded issues facing small v small arena combat.

@Lexxypwns honestly lays out exactly what my concern is. maybe you all like his tone better than mine, but this is the truth in my eyes, whatever way you want to slice it:

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Obviously this kind of *** is gonna be a problem though. You, I, and anyone with a brain can see it. Its not like cyrodiil where you can pick a different keep to fight at or zerg them down. I'm not advocating zerging, but let's face it, that's how PUGS compete with skilled players atm, in battlegrounds you can at most outnumber someone 2-1 and even then you have to worry about getting caught in aoe crossfire while trying to beat the more organized group.

I mean, realistically, if we just wanted to wreck pugs we could do that in cyro. There needs to be things to prevent a pre-made going up against 2 Pug groups AND we need the ability to set up custom matches.

Given the skill disparity even in premade groups we need matchmaking for premades aswell.

From my personal experience what hurts battlegrounds the most is dedicated experienced groups destroying newly formed groups by interested but inexperienced players - because it´s a much steeper learning curve to l2p in a group than just to l2p a class alone.

100% agree, we need a good MMR, but even with the best MMR ever, putting 12 players of similar skill into a competition with 2 teams of pugs and 1 premade the premade should still completely stomp. The two things have to go hand in hand. I don't suggest inflating MMR based on being grouped though, just don't allow groups of 4 to fight solo que people.

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Well in game's like Overwatch, PUG's get owned by organized groups. That's usually how it goes in any game, rarely see it executed perfectly.

In overwatch you don't get 6 solo players matched up against pre-made 6 man teams in competitive. Furthermore, unlike ESO, overwatch has a big roster and a lot of them are capable of an individual carry against an opposing team of 6.

You most certainly get matched up against groups or teams of solo player's. Not every group is made up of 6 , some consist of 4 maybe even just 3 and the game has to make up for that. It definitely isn't always group v group at all lol play competitive every day.

I've never faced a team of more than 3 players without at least a pre-made duo on my team. That being said, the strength of synergy on ESO is vastly more than on Overwatch. No two heroes have enough synergy to render an opposing team incapable of winning.

What tier do you play in? I'm plat on PC and gold Xbox.

Almost plat, trying to work my way up "solo" but the game is more than just being a stat sheet filler. But at time's I've been placed in groups that obviously been playing together for awhile.

And I feel as though it's hard to carry 5 people against another 6 who knows what they're doing, though just the other day someone was trying to say it's normal.

Lexxypwns

No - BGs are DOA

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Im not adamantly against Battlegrounds despite what the knee jerk fanboys presumably think. I was asking a legitimate question based on the current and known about the future state of things. I was genuinely curious whether players thought BG was a good idea given the issues already present in the game that i listed in my OP.

I stop talking about CP - like my question explicitly stated to take the CP factor out of the equation and look at the OTHER compounded issues facing small v small arena combat.

@Lexxypwns honestly lays out exactly what my concern is. maybe you all like his tone better than mine, but this is the truth in my eyes, whatever way you want to slice it:

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Obviously this kind of *** is gonna be a problem though. You, I, and anyone with a brain can see it. Its not like cyrodiil where you can pick a different keep to fight at or zerg them down. I'm not advocating zerging, but let's face it, that's how PUGS compete with skilled players atm, in battlegrounds you can at most outnumber someone 2-1 and even then you have to worry about getting caught in aoe crossfire while trying to beat the more organized group.

I mean, realistically, if we just wanted to wreck pugs we could do that in cyro. There needs to be things to prevent a pre-made going up against 2 Pug groups AND we need the ability to set up custom matches.

Given the skill disparity even in premade groups we need matchmaking for premades aswell.

From my personal experience what hurts battlegrounds the most is dedicated experienced groups destroying newly formed groups by interested but inexperienced players - because it´s a much steeper learning curve to l2p in a group than just to l2p a class alone.

100% agree, we need a good MMR, but even with the best MMR ever, putting 12 players of similar skill into a competition with 2 teams of pugs and 1 premade the premade should still completely stomp. The two things have to go hand in hand. I don't suggest inflating MMR based on being grouped though, just don't allow groups of 4 to fight solo que people.

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Well in game's like Overwatch, PUG's get owned by organized groups. That's usually how it goes in any game, rarely see it executed perfectly.

In overwatch you don't get 6 solo players matched up against pre-made 6 man teams in competitive. Furthermore, unlike ESO, overwatch has a big roster and a lot of them are capable of an individual carry against an opposing team of 6.

You most certainly get matched up against groups or teams of solo player's. Not every group is made up of 6 , some consist of 4 maybe even just 3 and the game has to make up for that. It definitely isn't always group v group at all lol play competitive every day.

I've never faced a team of more than 3 players without at least a pre-made duo on my team. That being said, the strength of synergy on ESO is vastly more than on Overwatch. No two heroes have enough synergy to render an opposing team incapable of winning.

What tier do you play in? I'm plat on PC and gold Xbox.

Almost plat, trying to work my way up "solo" but the game is more than just being a stat sheet filler. But at time's I've been placed in groups that obviously been playing together for awhile.

And I feel as though it's hard to carry 5 people against another 6 who knows what they're doing, though just the other day someone was trying to say it's normal.

Its hard AF, but if you're not getting countered on 76, pharah, hog, widow, and others you can easily pull off carries with just a bit of competence. In ESO, however, you run to help 3 pugs fighting 4 actual pvpers, working together and using their brain, and regardless of how hard you try or what you do, you lose.

kevlarto_ESO

I do not think they will be DOA, but I think they will have a short popular life spawn, kind of like dueling I still seem some going on just not all over the place like the first couple of weeks, just like the popularity of IC when it came out still action there just not as much, I know myself and a lot of my friends have no interest in the small scale, we came to siege and have large scale battles, like the game was advertised in the first place, but will see who knows small scale might be such a hit that cyrodill will be left in the wind and a ghost town, then again maybe not, but with the warden and small scale coming out at the same time I am sure the large scale battles will not be so large.

I give small scale 4 to 6 weeks before it dies down to a handful of players, all depends on the amount of cheating and exploiting that goes on and drives away the average players.

pieratsos

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

Just because there will be specific builds that u have to run in order to compete for leaderboards it doesnt mean its going to die. How does that even make any sense? Thats like saying trials are dead because there is BiS gear that u have to run in order to compete. Or like saying Cyrodiil is dead because all the organised raids run the same crap spamming the same buttons. Even if only premade groups are left to fight in there its still not dead. Thats what those premade groups want anw. They dont want to go in there and slaughter randoms. They want small scale competitive PVP. Sure it may not be for everyone and the gameplay may be horrible with all the broken setups which is something like the worst case scenario but it still doesnt mean its dead. There are people in cyrodiil whose only job is to spam rapids manuever in raids. And yet they are still doing it day in day out and somehow they find it fun. Competitive does not equal dead.

And thats assuming BGs turn out to be like that which u cant be sure. Its not 4v4. Its 4v4v4. There is a big difference. 4v4v4 can turn out to be small scale chaotic fights like cyrodiil instead of super competitive fights. You will be outnumbered, the maps are small, u cant escape, one of the maps is open field with prety much no LOS and most importantly they will most likely be no CP. There is only so much that you can put into a build when u dont have CP. And there is also the chance that the group finder wont put randoms against premades. If they manage to do it like that then the premade groups and their cancer setups can do whatever the hell they want and the randoms can have their fun without being chased and sieged by zergs.

NBrookus

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I'm not advocating zerging, but let's face it, that's how PUGS compete with skilled players atm, in battlegrounds you can at most outnumber someone 2-1 and even then you have to worry about getting caught in aoe crossfire while trying to beat the more organized group.

If the keyword here is compete, outnumbering doesn't really apply. You don't get to put 8 players on the court in a basketball game just because the other team is better and still call it competition. Open world Cyrodiil heavily favors raw numbers right now for the sake of being casual friendly... I welcome the chance to turn that around.

Everyone will be happier if the matchmaking system manages to mostly tri up teams of relatively equal skill. But one way or another every match is going to have twice as many losers as winners. You can lose and still have fun, though.

arkansas_ESO

No - BGs are DOA

paulsimonps wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Im not adamantly against Battlegrounds despite what the knee jerk fanboys presumably think. I was asking a legitimate question based on the current and known about the future state of things. I was genuinely curious whether players thought BG was a good idea given the issues already present in the game that i listed in my OP.

I stop talking about CP - like my question explicitly stated to take the CP factor out of the equation and look at the OTHER compounded issues facing small v small arena combat.

@Lexxypwns honestly lays out exactly what my concern is. maybe you all like his tone better than mine, but this is the truth in my eyes, whatever way you want to slice it:

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Obviously this kind of *** is gonna be a problem though. You, I, and anyone with a brain can see it. Its not like cyrodiil where you can pick a different keep to fight at or zerg them down. I'm not advocating zerging, but let's face it, that's how PUGS compete with skilled players atm, in battlegrounds you can at most outnumber someone 2-1 and even then you have to worry about getting caught in aoe crossfire while trying to beat the more organized group.

I mean, realistically, if we just wanted to wreck pugs we could do that in cyro. There needs to be things to prevent a pre-made going up against 2 Pug groups AND we need the ability to set up custom matches.

As far as I know the system is going to do the best of its ability to put premade vs premade. Sometimes it won't happen but I have faith in that it will most of the time, depends on how much premades we get vs how much pugs we will get.

Also the custom games sounds terrible, UNLESS, you make them give no AP or Tokens. Cause otherwise its gonna be ripe for abuse. You could grind tokens all day just making premades custom games with your friends. I would rather it didn't exist at all

@paulsimonps Did the devs talk about anything about matching groups of equal skill level together? From what I've heard so far it sounds like all premade groups are equal in the eyes of the matchmaking tool, which means you'll get premade groups of 4 casual players, all new to the game, running unoptimized builds and green quality gear, put up against good players in gold BIS gear with optimized builds. I can see that killing battlegrounds off very quickly.

NightbladeMechanics

Minno wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Vitaely wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

The funny thing is: everyone is AGREEING on my points of concern and then subsequently dismissing them.

its almost delusional.

It's not delusional. The people who kept asking for Battlegrounds when they used to be a dream, are the same people who run in smaller groups in Cyrodiil every day looking for good fights only to get zerged at a resource or town.

Ahh, yes. These are they players who will 4v1 soloers till the cows come home then get salty when they get 16v4'd..

I think this is a pretty narrow comment. Most small scalers respect numbers and wouldn't do that unless they have beef with the person or are attacked first.

Or that player is tanky so you need 4 players to help burst then down.

Or you suspect them to be placing a camp (dead enemy's still on floor while one player running.)

I meant soloer as in someone off on their own away from other fights. If they're running from a battle to place a camp and your group prioritizes winning those larger fights to get objectives, then by all means slaughter the lonely guy.

paulsimonps

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Im not adamantly against Battlegrounds despite what the knee jerk fanboys presumably think. I was asking a legitimate question based on the current and known about the future state of things. I was genuinely curious whether players thought BG was a good idea given the issues already present in the game that i listed in my OP.

I stop talking about CP - like my question explicitly stated to take the CP factor out of the equation and look at the OTHER compounded issues facing small v small arena combat.

@Lexxypwns honestly lays out exactly what my concern is. maybe you all like his tone better than mine, but this is the truth in my eyes, whatever way you want to slice it:

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Obviously this kind of *** is gonna be a problem though. You, I, and anyone with a brain can see it. Its not like cyrodiil where you can pick a different keep to fight at or zerg them down. I'm not advocating zerging, but let's face it, that's how PUGS compete with skilled players atm, in battlegrounds you can at most outnumber someone 2-1 and even then you have to worry about getting caught in aoe crossfire while trying to beat the more organized group.

I mean, realistically, if we just wanted to wreck pugs we could do that in cyro. There needs to be things to prevent a pre-made going up against 2 Pug groups AND we need the ability to set up custom matches.

As far as I know the system is going to do the best of its ability to put premade vs premade. Sometimes it won't happen but I have faith in that it will most of the time, depends on how much premades we get vs how much pugs we will get.

Also the custom games sounds terrible, UNLESS, you make them give no AP or Tokens. Cause otherwise its gonna be ripe for abuse. You could grind tokens all day just making premades custom games with your friends. I would rather it didn't exist at all

@paulsimonps Did the devs talk about anything about matching groups of equal skill level together? From what I've heard so far it sounds like all premade groups are equal in the eyes of the matchmaking tool, which means you'll get premade groups of 4 casual players, all new to the game, running unoptimized builds and green quality gear, put up against good players in gold BIS gear with optimized builds. I can see that killing battlegrounds off very quickly.

Since nothing of the sort has been discussed publicly I am not allowed to confirm or deny it. Sorry. NDA is still in effect on things not yet talked about publicly, whether or not it was or was not talked about during the visit, and as far as I know nothing of the sort has been mentioned by devs publicly, either at PAX or at ESO Live or the forums. We will just all have to wait and see.

pieratsos

Yes - BGs are going to be awesome

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Im not adamantly against Battlegrounds despite what the knee jerk fanboys presumably think. I was asking a legitimate question based on the current and known about the future state of things. I was genuinely curious whether players thought BG was a good idea given the issues already present in the game that i listed in my OP.

I stop talking about CP - like my question explicitly stated to take the CP factor out of the equation and look at the OTHER compounded issues facing small v small arena combat.

@Lexxypwns honestly lays out exactly what my concern is. maybe you all like his tone better than mine, but this is the truth in my eyes, whatever way you want to slice it:

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Obviously this kind of *** is gonna be a problem though. You, I, and anyone with a brain can see it. Its not like cyrodiil where you can pick a different keep to fight at or zerg them down. I'm not advocating zerging, but let's face it, that's how PUGS compete with skilled players atm, in battlegrounds you can at most outnumber someone 2-1 and even then you have to worry about getting caught in aoe crossfire while trying to beat the more organized group.

I mean, realistically, if we just wanted to wreck pugs we could do that in cyro. There needs to be things to prevent a pre-made going up against 2 Pug groups AND we need the ability to set up custom matches.

As far as I know the system is going to do the best of its ability to put premade vs premade. Sometimes it won't happen but I have faith in that it will most of the time, depends on how much premades we get vs how much pugs we will get.

Also the custom games sounds terrible, UNLESS, you make them give no AP or Tokens. Cause otherwise its gonna be ripe for abuse. You could grind tokens all day just making premades custom games with your friends. I would rather it didn't exist at all

@paulsimonps Did the devs talk about anything about matching groups of equal skill level together? From what I've heard so far it sounds like all premade groups are equal in the eyes of the matchmaking tool, which means you'll get premade groups of 4 casual players, all new to the game, running unoptimized builds and green quality gear, put up against good players in gold BIS gear with optimized builds. I can see that killing battlegrounds off very quickly.

BG is suppose to offer competitive PVP to people. If u grind to max lvl, u have no idea about what u are doing and u go in there with green gear then u will get ur ass kicked. There is cyro for casual PVP and BGs for competitive PVP. Just because some people cant compete it doesnt mean its going to die. It just wont be for everyone and i dont see the issue with that. Why cant we have some sort of competitive content in this game?