Infinite Sustain IS Killing ESO

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO

Yup, when I saw the title of the tread I knew this is another PvP related QQ thread.

Torbschka

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

https://youtu.be/mGDNysBzVvI

After being overwhelmed with joy at the great news of ZOS taking action against dishonest players, I decided to pop-in ESO and play a bit. And literally within the first 10mins., I encounter what you see above. WTF is that?

You're able to:
- Dodge Roll
- Sprint
- Self-Heal
- Tank
- And put out crazy high numbers of DPS

That's NOT okay. And while I'm aware I screwed up a bit in my rotations, what happened above should not be allowed in anyway. How the hell are you able to do all that, all the while I'm also applying stamina AND magicka resource poisons? Seriously? And the dude isn't even an emperor.

And the sad part is, you can't fix crap like that without damaging PvE. And that's not okay. Why? Because the developers refuse to seperate what happens in PvP and PvE. They refuse to balance things different. I understand that StamSorcs were too weak previously, and you wanted to buff them. I understand you've gone ahead nerfed stamina a bit. Really. I get it. But for that type of crap to occur still even now is ridiculous.

... Meanwhile people are saying stamina is dead in both PvE and PvP, and yet stamina builds have the highest scores in VMA. And still can do bs like you see above. Lmao. Yeah. Okay. Clearly it's not only an issue within a PvP environment. And while I'm pro-PvE to the fullest, and almost never PvP anymore? That crap has to get out of the game.

PS: And you can't really "git gud" when faced with nonsense like that either.

PSS: I rarely say this, but nerf StamSorcs. They're beyond ridiculous even now. And please don't mention how just because they're not top-tier in trials that their current state is fine, because they're not. Hurricane still is beyond broken. As is the morph that lets them heal and sustain.

People posting such trash like u are the reason we have those dumb gameplay/balance changes every time.

U are at "beginner" level at best in pvp, u did so many things wrong, getting stomped and coming here crying for nerf lol. I totallly agree that there is something wrong with CP, but thats not the issue here.

Hell men , u are running reactive + ressource poisons and still not able to beat that guy.

Let me tell you a secret: i can kill 5+ players solo if they are like those guys in the Video, yet put me against 2 good players, without poison, and im done in 30 sec.

But nerf mechanics / counterplay more.

U got 1vXed, live with it and stop crying.

Edit: all that saying, im in favor of no CP, but as i said before - people getting outplayed heavily and come crying in the forums after , PLZ..

Joy_Division

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

https://youtu.be/mGDNysBzVvI

After being overwhelmed with joy at the great news of ZOS taking action against dishonest players, I decided to pop-in ESO and play a bit. And literally within the first 10mins., I encounter what you see above. WTF is that?

You're able to:
- Dodge Roll
- Sprint
- Self-Heal
- Tank
- And put out crazy high numbers of DPS

That's NOT okay. And while I'm aware I screwed up a bit in my rotations, what happened above should not be allowed in anyway. How the hell are you able to do all that, all the while I'm also applying stamina AND magicka resource poisons? Seriously? And the dude isn't even an emperor.

And the sad part is, you can't fix crap like that without damaging PvE. And that's not okay. Why? Because the developers refuse to seperate what happens in PvP and PvE. They refuse to balance things different. I understand that StamSorcs were too weak previously, and you wanted to buff them. I understand you've gone ahead nerfed stamina a bit. Really. I get it. But for that type of crap to occur still even now is ridiculous.

... Meanwhile people are saying stamina is dead in both PvE and PvP, and yet stamina builds have the highest scores in VMA. And still can do bs like you see above. Lmao. Yeah. Okay. Clearly it's not only an issue within a PvP environment. And while I'm pro-PvE to the fullest, and almost never PvP anymore? That crap has to get out of the game.

PS: And you can't really "git gud" when faced with nonsense like that either.

PSS: I rarely say this, but nerf StamSorcs. They're beyond ridiculous even now. And please don't mention how just because they're not top-tier in trials that their current state is fine, because they're not. Hurricane still is beyond broken. As is the morph that lets them heal and sustain.

Your opponent frequently used Dark Deal, which is a totally busted skill and much more responsible for his infinite sustain than CP. Even if ZoS removes the cost reduction and nerfs regen, that build will still function just fine.

People who say stamina is dead are just parroting what the absolute top PvE raid guilds say. If I am a top end raid guild and looking to squeeze every point possible, then yes, I would want magicka specs for the MoL trial. In any other instance stamina is a totally viable. Indeed, in Vma a stam sorc is perhaps the easiest run: crit surge + hurricane put out enough healing to make templars jealous and that's not even including Vigor, Blood Craze, etc. I would argue that in anything but a bomb-group, stam is a better choice in PvP because it does not have to worry about negates, heals just fine, does not have to worry about CC break, and, importantly, has burst damage. Certainly they take more skill to play, but they have greater potential. Mag is far better at destroying mobs of PuG because of Viscous Death is a dumb set and the destro ult+prox is too strong together.

max_only

Preface: I'm no good at pvp

The person recording the video chased down someone who was fleeing, and during the fight had mostly full if not completely full resource bars the entire time. Since I don't pvp very often/well I don't know what to look for as far as "interrupting Dark Deal" but I was wondering how they went from full on all bars to empty on all bars so quickly at the end. The two look pretty evenly matched, I never last that long in a fight.

Edit: Okay so dark deal is that move that has the same animation as BOL but dark blue effects instead of gold right? ....... That can be interrupted? I know I stuck at pvp but I didn't see an opportunity in there to "burst down" the guy who was chased.

Lord-Otto

This clip just shows how much better stamina sustain is. The dude can dodgeroll trice, sprint and use stam skills just fine.
It also shows how far superior Dark Deal to Dark Conversion is. Magicka is a free resource to stamina. That's unfair. If stam builds had to break free with magicka, Dark Deal wouldn't be that massive problem.
What you should have done in that video was synchronizing ultimates and burst. But I guess those were randoms next to you, so tough luck.

Derra

It still makes me scratch my head when people state sustain was somehow "less infinite" without CP.
The patch with the longest fights across the board (against competent players) was 1.5 because nobody would die or run out of resources. The issue that people don´t think about when making claims that everything was better is the players were a lot worse than they are now on average.

I can still remember my build with 121 stamrec 169 magrec 129 spelldmg 2500hp 2800mag 1900stam 34% costreduction bloodspawn.
Utilitywise this build still beats anything i had after that for pvp - because softcaps and 5p sets allowed to literally incorporate everything into 1 build.

FloppyTouch

Screwed up ur rotation in pvp is where you lost me. Pvp is reaction not rotation.

Jitterbug

Good fight.
Having reluctantly tried no cp PvP I must admit I don't get what anyone is doing on the cp enabled server anymore. This video just confirms that.

LegendaryChef

OP, you have now mentioned the word "mathematically" say what? 3 or 4 times now? Yet I haven't seen a single number to follow proving your statements/allegations... I honestly don't think you have a leg to stand on here and best to just walk away from the thread before you dig yourself an even bigger hole.

SnubbS

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Attackopsn wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN74sRAnTjY
He gets 1vxed quite often, even when sustain isn't broken.. so, wouldn't pay too much mind to this

@Attackopsn Is that right? So are you going to also tell everyone of how that occurred when there was no champion points available, and during the double AP event...? And how also, I wasn't there for long? If you're going to try and kick dirt on my name. Tell the FULL story. In fact, I should thank you. Thank you for proving my point of how you're capable of "1vX" even with no CP active, and having heavy CC's applied on you. Mind explaining that?

Or are you going to also tell everyone how you exploited the TBS glitch months back, and set a few records and got your reputation of being a good player behind it...? Inb4 you deny it, here. Let me tag a few old buddies, that you may know. @Mortehl @Titans_Bane

Edit: And I want you to decline any of this, so we can take things a step further. Lol. Want to make videos talking about how I'm "exposed", and stir up drama...? Lol. Okay. Gladly. Mind you, you're also the same person who had issues with the fact that I had a problem with you and those in your guild charging people for VMoL clears. Rather than helping others out, and teaching mechanics. You sold carry runs. Just like you sold VMA runs. Whoops. That kinda slipped out too. My bad.

*Complains about infinite sustain.*


*Gets 1vXd in no cp*

That's so embarrassing—knowing how hard it was to 1vX without CP.

Threads like this that get sustain nerfed are just going to ruin the game. Because people just build their sustain back to what it was prior to the nerf, and everyone continues playing like they were—apart from the fact that now they're doing noticeably less damage. Which means fights will last even longer—which is the issue everyone has with their 'so-called' infinite sustain, even though not every class has the option to have good sustain. This issue started when Heavy got buffed, ZoS won't nerf heavy—instead, they'll just nerf all resource management and basically leave everything where it already is. Except now we have to fight for longer—so 1vXing is harder, and small group play is also harder—and the game is just more reliant on numbers. All the healers will remain in Heavy, DDs will stay in Heavy—your damage goes down, their tankiness and sustain stays the same.

Taylor_MB

Haha, you find the one person that agrees with you and cling onto them.

You should seriously consider everyone else feedback.
• You were trying to execute at 75%+
• You had no DoT's and no burst. Swap out snipe and caltrops for:
- Poison Injection (double execute is a huge stamina advantage)
- Venous Claw (DoT, also snares so easier to control the fight and hit them with your dizzying swing)
- Noxious Breath (DoT AND major fracture, you don't get penetration from armour like your magsorc)
• Engine guardian was a weird choice, can't help but think you don't have nearly as much weapon damage as you should (you should post your stats sheet, cause based on your gameplay everyone is assuming it's a L2P issue, if you prove your build is decent then people might discuss other issues)

Infinite sustain IS a problem but your video does not demonstrate this. Also poisons have a 20% to apply on weapon skills, you were connecting with him very little, so I would not be so sure the up time was as significant as you think.

Edit: I just realised this thread is up to it's 4th page, this guy is getting ribbed hard >.<

Adrastus

lol op this is a serious l2p issue, not even joking or being rude. ok you mained a mag dk when you actively pvped, cool. ya stam and mag are different but the passives are still exactly the same. Not to mention keeping up buffs, cc's, and especially timing bursts is still pretty much the same for all classes, all of which you failed to do in this clip.

you also mention rotations and flawless/vmol titles in pvp. why would any of those even be relevant to pvp? lol

maybe try to get a solid build first without assuming you need to go meta. lose the engine guardian/regen food first imo and the reactive set...any heavy armor set should make gankers have a tough time if thats your reasoning. your bar set up is also wack...lose snipe asap haha

GrigorijMalahevich

The guy didn't weave any light/heavy attacks with swing. You didn't even try to interrupt his dark deals, his shuffle was s bit lucky... considering that you had really a lot of stamina and magicka and he was constantly doing dark deals, means that you had much better sustain.

Yoi got massively outplayed, sorry.

laksikus

@Ch4mpTW
1. You said he slipped in his stream and showed Double mundus. Give us a Link to that.
2. Was double mundus even possible on console? Wasnt it some addon exploit on PC?
3. Class nerf crying just cos you lost to a better player is an idiots move
4. I can infinite sustain and do damage on nocp. My build is just better crafted than others
5. I wish people who unjustified report a guy for cheating get temporary bans
6. L2p

Asmael

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

[...]

... Meanwhile people are saying stamina is dead in both PvE and PvP, and yet stamina builds have the highest scores in VMA. And still can do bs like you see above. Lmao. Yeah. Okay. Clearly it's not only an issue within a PvP environment. And while I'm pro-PvE to the fullest, and almost never PvP anymore? That crap has to get out of the game.

Only vMA scores above 600k this patch are from magicka nightblades:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1KDWNGdATY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD_1PUIyVKk

Highest single target parses this patch come from magicka sorcerer guarded for the Minor Force:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycC-cgMZFYo

The best performing PvE raid groups have a grand maximum of 1 stamina DD, usually 0. Out of all 4 stamina specs, only 1 (stamina DK) still has a niche use.

Stamina group healing is still not a thing.

Organized PvP groups' firepower comes from 1) Magicka NBs 2) Magicka sorcerers, both for the utility they provide (bombing, mobility, Negate) and the best synergy with destro ult / proxy. Stamina DDs are referred to as "caltrops / rapids slaves". That's not one I invented, that's the actual term.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v96b88jtTH0

Check Zerg's squad channel if you want to know what those groups run.

Stamina is still good for skirmishes / open world due to their mobility and burst capability, and I'm certainly not going to deny that, but PvP isn't only open world and PvE isn't just vMA.

PS: CPs are absolutely too strong, but allowing a stamina sorc to use Dark deal that many times is not a proper basis for this kind of complaint.

Torbschka

laksikus wrote: »

@Ch4mpTW
1. You said he slipped in his stream and showed Double mundus. Give us a Link to that.
2. Was double mundus even possible on console? Wasnt it some addon exploit on PC?
3. Class nerf crying just cos you lost to a better player is an idiots move
4. I can infinite sustain and do damage on nocp. My build is just better crafted than others
5. I wish people who unjustified report a guy for cheating get temporary bans
6. L2p

As far as I know the current double mundus exploit dont work on console (only know the current with the "change " x" addon")

The last I was not aware of. I have also no idea if there r any other ways in doing so.

Duiwel

Lol @ OP QQ'ing but his name is CHAMPFTW...

I guess you're not a champ mate.



Why do you find this so unacceptable? Why not build a god-like build yourself? Then you own people and be the champ?

Why the tears mate?

Did you know OP that even if there were NO CP, NO Attribute scaling, NO set bonuses & you and someone else had 100% the same gear, race ect. That there is a chance that he is just a better player than you and he would beat you every time?

So what my point is you can cry all you like mate, but at the end of the day you have to realise one thing:

Some people practice more than you so they are better than you, some people are just naturally talented so they are better than you...

This is the way of ALL things in life not just PvP.

The sooner you realise that the sooner you will start to have fun.

When I get killed I admire the other guy cause he did something better than me ( a lot of times it is they did something better than me, cause I like going in to small groups )

Etaniel

Yet the OP is right, this video does show something very wrong with eso :

That people feel entitled to zerg down solo players (and chase them) and think they deserve to kill him, when they clearly aren't on his level of play.

cpuScientist

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

You got outplayed.

You chased down one player with others and went in thinking easy kill but instead got packed up and sent home crying to forum.

The reduced cost regen nerf coming is only going to favor bad players like you an the others who chased him down while hurting that guy who outplayed you.

Pathetic how this game is going so easy mode

Yep yep

AnviOfVai

The amount of recovery in PVP on some players is outstanding, you can have 12 people on one Templar and the dude won't die, his health can go down to a little dot and suddenly BANG right back to the top again. I also have to resort my complaining to CP, the only reason they can withstand this kind of damage is because of the extra boosting. My tank can withstand a lot of damage but she can't deal it, which balances out my player. Players who can deal out ridiculous amount of DPS and be able to take as much damage as a stam tank need to be looked at.

This is not a L2P issue this is just the way Cyrodiil with CP is, the best idea is to go into a none CP Campaign, unfortunately you won't be able to tank very well at all

SnubbS

The best thing ZoS can do is disallow the use of Heavy Armor in PvP. Just take it out—ban it. Healers without heavy do not have "infinite sustain"—you (obviously) can sustain your magic, but not your stamina. Healers should not be the tankiest players that you're fighting—and they are. StamSorcs in Medium do not have anywhere near the sustain of StamSorcs in Heavy.

AnviOfVai

SnubbS wrote: »

The best thing ZoS can do is disallow the use of Heavy Armor in PvP. Just take it out—ban it. Healers without heavy do not have "infinite sustain"—you (obviously) can sustain your magic, but not your stamina. Healers should not be the tankiest players that you're fighting—and they are. StamSorcs in Medium do not have anywhere near the sustain of StamSorcs in Heavy.

Taking out heavy armor cripples tanks, perhaps instead of this there should be a certain cap on which armors healers,tanks damage dealers can wear? This would put a lot of restriction in the game though and would mess with PVE players.

kalarro

I play rpgs because I want progression. I am pretty low CP and get owned by players with a lot of CPs.... but you know what? thats fine. I want something to aim for. If I wanted balanced pvp Id play a shooter, or rts , not an rpg with levels and items

GaldorP

Here's what should be done to make PvP reasonable and more strategic:

- Disable CP for PvP zones or completely redesign the system so it's about choices that each comes with a sacrifice.

- Globally nerf all effects that return Stamina, Magicka, and Health so they return only about 25% of what they return in PvE zones (this includes Health gained from active skills [including healing], passive skills, potions and set effects, Health Recovery, Stamina and Magicka gained from any source).

- Replace poisons that reduce a player's Stamina or Magicka Recovery by new poisons that reduce all effects that let the player regain Stamina or Magicka but by a much lower percentage (about 10-15% reduced Stamina or Magicka gain globally).
- Add poisons that reduce all effects that let a player regain Health (healing, Health Recovery, Health gained from skills or set effects, etc.) by about 10-15%.

- Introduce a cap of how much Health a player can regain per second (no matter how or where the player gains that Health from) equal to about 25-33% of the player's Max Health. Any Health regain effect beyond that value in the same second is lost.

- Globally reduce the amount of shield armor received from damage shield effects to about 25% of the amount received in PvE zones (no matter what type of effect granted the damage shield; be it an active or passive skill, a set effect, an enchantment, etc.). If damage shields prove to be too strong after that change, remove crit protection from damage shields.

- Remove AoE caps but globally nerf the damage and healing of AoE skills in PvP by about 10-15% (any skill that can affect more than 1 target with it's primary effect [healing and damage] and all ground based AoE skills [healing and damage]).

- Change ridiculous sets like Reactive Armor to something reasonable.

- Reduce the damage dealt by all proc sets in PvP by about 75% (so they deal 25% of the damage they would in PvE zones).

- Add a cast time of 1 second to Purge. Possibly nerf some other skills and sets that cure several negative status effects.

Libonotus

That's Dark Exchange which costs magicka and restore stamina and health

Merlin13KAGL

As you run EG, rally, and vigor yourself...no irony there.

You targeted a player that (had he wanted) you could not catch.

Where were your CC's, your stuns, your poisons?

He was using the environment to his advantage, speed boost from bow line (available to anyone), and various other things to give himself excellent survivability.

Also, he clearly wasn't hitting that hard, or you wouldn't have remained upright as long as you did.

You got tunnel vision. You died.

Now, shall we talk about how you were able to keep him tab-targeted after he was a quarter-mile away and clearly not within line-of-sight?

EDIT: Even without CP's, even without sustain, whatever your current build is, there is always going to be one build out there you cannot beat - those are the ones you let go. No one is immortal in the right circumstance.

Izaki

How is Hurricane broken? Is it a strong ability? Yeah.

About Dark Deal... Just bash. How many times were right in his face while he was Dark Dealing and neither of you even attempted a bash. Like I get not being able to chase a stam sorc while he's running to a tree, but when he's in front of you like that. Btw, when it was a 1v1, he didn't even have to Dark Deal.

Izaki

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

You died because of a mistake, but you sustained just as well. You also didn't interrupt his Dark Deal. Not to mention that was on a CP campaign. If you want better PvP, play on Azura's Star.

PvP in ESO is unbalanced, but your video does not demonstrate the main issues.

Out of curiosity, how does it not demonstrate the main issues? Lol. The guy isn't an emperor and is sustaining crazy, all the while being effected by a combination of magicka and stamina resource cost poisons. And is being attacked by 2 people (was originally being attacked by multiple). Really though? And his damage output is heavy, and I was using a StamDK at the time with: 5x Reactive, 3x Agility, 1x Maelstrom's Battle Axe, and 1x Maelstrom's Bow. The weapons sharpened, the jewelry robust, and the body pieces impenetrable.

His point is that you're sustaining just as well as he is.

Most_Awesome

At first I was with the OP but once I actually looked at the video and know his armour set up, well that just explains it all.

Reactive armour, Engine guardian, 3 Agility

At a guess I would say he's running Stam regen on jewellery too, you hit like a wet noodle as you can see his Dizzy swings are doing 4k max and I think his DBreaker hits for like 4k too.

In ESO now you need to go full damage or full tank anything in between gets killed, and If your one of those in between players you end up frustrated just like the OP.

br0steen

@Ch4mpTW

It's entirely possible to put out the numbers that were put out against you in the second video, (you know, the one where you got exposed again). It was insane. It took 4 or 5 sets of jabs to get you down, and you didn't heal. Seriously you just sat there watching your health go down not doing anything about it. Meanwhile the "cheater" you were fighting threw in quite the clutch BoL during the destro ult which crit. He also used mist form for a sec or two. I feel like if you played on XB1 and ran into me you would think I was cheating because "there's no way his dawnbreaker could hit me for 10k".


Objectively, it seems most people agree: you are just bad. If you are bad don't call for random nerfs.