Official Feedback Thread for Sorcerers

Minalan

One shot kills are more frequent than infinite fights. Anyone who thinks we'll be stacking three shields with a 6s duration each is simply delusional. You'll be hitting a button every 1.5 seconds. It won't work. Or at least you won't be hitting anyone back.

And seriously, are shields any worse than Incap strike or Jesus beam? Magicka bomber nightblades running around with 10K shields? Stam nightblades one shotting people with wonky setups the devs never thought of with their tiny limited imaginations? Did anyone actually PLAY the PTS, or at least watch the devs get murdered every two seconds by stealth classes, or the unkillable Stam DK's?

There are bigger problems with this game than the one sorc that touched you in the naughty place in PVP. And frankly most of the shield nerf suggestions here have been simply moronic. Watch Tuesday, mark my words and watch the forums when this *** goes live.

code65536

DDuke wrote: »

and before you say "b-but they have heals!" take a look at your Twilight Matriarch

lolwut?

Maybe if it didn't require being double-barred. And maybe if it wasn't so squishy.

Anyway, you take a very PvP-centric view on a lot of things. Which is fine and understandable, because that's what you do. But I think people are frustrated when PvP balance changes affect their enjoyment of PvE.

ToRelax

DDuke wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

holosoul wrote: »

The thing that's the most upsetting (to me) is that people think sorcs are OP in PVP because some pro player who would have killed them on any class and build killed them. For an average -> above average, but not exceptional 3rd standard deviation of skill level player, sorc is underpowered in PVP. While I'm sure the pros can make sorc look OP (as they would with any class) I honestly don't believe they would get their best results on sorc. If you look for ESO PVP videos on youtube for example, you'll find 80% of the vids are DK/templar, 15% of the vids are some kind of NB, and every few pages you might find 1 sorc video here and there on ps4 where they move like keyboard turners.

Can sorcs quit getting blamed because one of the '3' really good sorcs on your pvp server killed you? As an average player sorc is incredibly fragile.

Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk

Sorcs are absolutely fine in PvP - in some ways they're even overpowered currently (we'll see next patch).

In the latest EU 1v1 tournament, 3 out of the top 5 were sorcerers (a sorcerer even won the whole thing, big surprise...)

In one of the semi-finals there was a sorcerer vs sorcerer fight - after about 10-15 minutes of dueling judges had to pause the fight and both sorcerers took of Harness Magicka. After another 10-15 minutes, they had to take off Hardened Ward as well. Only after this could the fight end at all.

When you have defensive abilities that not only outperform offensive abilities, but do so by a significant margin - there's a big problem.
A 20k shield requires between 2-4 (uncrittable) ability casts to get rid of, double the amount of resources and time it took to cast the shield.

This is the reason even bad players can do well with sorcerer at the moment - they can survive against better players just by spamming shield & blinking away.


This is one reason I'm actually happy about +60% magicka cost increasing poisons - they might finally put an end to that bs.

You might say the game is not balanced for 1v1s - but to that I say it has to be in the future if we're to get the Battlegrounds/Arenas they've promised.


Edit: and yes, there are plenty of other classes whose defensive skills vastly outperform offensive skills of other players', good stamina DKs/stamplars/magplars who know how to stack their +healing buffs etc - but that's a lot to go through in one forum post

And in many others StamDK won the whole thing. As a matter of fact I've never seen a Sorc make it to any of the finals. It's always dominated by Stam classes especially the StamDK.

But no on love the PvP Sorc is not underpowered, truly not they are just fine. And have a few different viable builds in PvP. My pet sorc does well, shield stacker does well, winter born. In PvP the Sorc ON LIVE was ok not OP but certainly not underpowered. However on the dark brotherhood pts. They took a huge hit, and are now underpowered. And besides that the 2 overachieving Stam classes got major buffs. And EVERY magicka class got our Ward. So now when DB hits live, then that's it for Sorcs they will be UNDERPOWERED.

Stamina DKs are insanely strong at the moment, there is no refuting that.

At the moment, I'd say the top 3 classes in PvP are: Stamina DKs, Magicka Sorcs & Magicka Templars.

In the finals of last tournament we had a very skilled stamina Templar as well (which I believe has good chances of being the strongest class in game next patch) who lost to the Magicka Sorc after some 30-40 minutes of dueling.

And yes I agree for the most part that Sorc on Live is fine when it comes to PvP. It requires a good amount of skill to combo the Sorc burst, and without that burst the bad sorcs don't kill any good players.

What is not fine however is the defensive aspect of Sorcs.

Currently, if you want to spam shields, you can do so without ever running out of magicka - and as long as you spam those shields you will not die in 1v1 - not even bad sorcs. The only thing that can counter you is Shield Breaker set which some people use, but there are sorc builds that counter Shield Breaker as well.

The same problem exists for Stamina DKs & Magicka/Stamina Templars who can just stack ridiculous amounts of +healing received & +healing done buffs and then just outheal everything you do.


In my opinion, they should've gone a different route regarding Sorcerer shields - I'm not sure any nerf to duration was even necessary with the +60% magicka cost poisons existing, but we'll see...

If it turns out sorcs can still spam that shield without any regard to their magicka, then they probably should've made the duration start from 20 seconds & then get halved for every shield cast within 4 seconds (up until it lasts only 1s or less) - that way you'd reward people who can keep pressure on the Sorcerer & it'd punish Sorcerers who only spam shields and nothing else.

They should also significantly increase the cost of all self heals so they can't be spammed to fix other classes, if +60% costs poisons doesn't do the job.

I don't think you can compare shields to dodge roll in such a way. Dodge roll effectiveness scales with the number of players attacking the user, shields do not. In practice, you have stamina builds dodging most attacks and using their other skills, which do not have a stacking cost, to deal with the undodgeable ones. A magicka build might instead cast shields or heals to deal with most attacks, and start dodge casting them when there is too much pressure on them.
Then again, I'd rather see the dodge penalty go away in the first place...

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

WHY OH WHY WOULD ANYONE SUGGEST WE BE PUNISHED FOR USING OUR DEFENSIVE ABILITY??

This is actually a good thing to bring up though, so I feel like making another post about it.

How balance is usually achieved is that you get rewarded for landing combos & putting pressure on the opponent. Defensive skills are the "oh ***" buttons that save you when your opponent is doing better, or abilities used to counter specific instances of burst damage that you have anticipated in advance.

In other games, you'd force your opponents to use their defensive cooldowns & such - in a non-cooldown game like ESO you should force your opponent to use more resources by making them go on the defensive.


The problem currently is that defensive skills aren't the "oh ***" buttons - they're just buttons you spam and you are not punished for doing that.

Your opponent is not rewarded for landing combos & keeping up pressure, he is in fact the one getting punished because offensive actions are not as cost-effective as defensive ones.


What happens is that an endless quagmire of two opponents spamming defensive skills ensues, which lasts until one side gets bored (or instagibbed).

Needless to say, this is not enjoyable gameplay and it's something that needs to be fixed before Arenas/Battlegrounds are implemented (where gameplay is much more focused on 1v1s or 2v2s etc) - else I'm afraid those are going to be poorly received by the general populace.

Well, the way they go about things are already getting poorly recieved by 90% of the sorc population and unbiased players of other classes so dumb decisions from the devs are just part of the game these days.

Rakkul

Minalan wrote: »

One shot kills are more frequent than infinite fights. Anyone who thinks we'll be stacking three shields with a 6s duration each is simply delusional. You'll be hitting a button every 1.5 seconds. It won't work. Or at least you won't be hitting anyone back.

And seriously, are shields any worse than Incap strike or Jesus beam? Magicka bomber nightblades running around with 10K shields? Stam nightblades one shotting people with wonky setups the devs never thought of with their tiny limited imaginations? Did anyone actually PLAY the PTS, or at least watch the devs get murdered every two seconds by stealth classes, or the unkillable Stam DK's?

There are bigger problems with this game than the one sorc that touched you in the naughty place in PVP. And frankly most of the shield nerf suggestions here have been simply moronic. Watch Tuesday, mark my words and watch the forums when this *** goes live.

Completely agree.
The devs have gone for the "all eyes on the Sorc" approach, which based on actual pvp with more than one class, is a very misguided approach, just pandering to inexperienced players populist propaganda.

Anyway, should be fun when all the 'what the hell is going on in pvp etc etc' posts start after it goes live - may take a little time for the poison epidemic patch to fully get going as players are mindwalked into the new potion motion gameplay that ESO will become.

DDuke

Minalan wrote: »

One shot kills are more frequent than infinite fights. Anyone who thinks we'll be stacking three shields with a 6s duration each is simply delusional. You'll be hitting a button every 1.5 seconds. It won't work. Or at least you won't be hitting anyone back.

And seriously, are shields any worse than Incap strike or Jesus beam? Magicka bomber nightblades running around with 10K shields? Stam nightblades one shotting people with wonky setups the devs never thought of with their tiny limited imaginations? Did anyone actually PLAY the PTS, or at least watch the devs get murdered every two seconds by stealth classes, or the unkillable Stam DK's?

There are bigger problems with this game than the one sorc that touched you in the naughty place in PVP. And frankly most of the shield nerf suggestions here have been simply moronic. Watch Tuesday, mark my words and watch the forums when this *** goes live.

Sure they are. One cast of Hardened Ward absorbs all the damage of one cast of Incap, jbeam or any other skill.

Making the shields last 6 seconds isn't going to fix the core issue though, people will still be able to spam them forever (if the base cost increases & 60% cost increasing poisons don't fix the issue).

It just makes it harder for sorcs to kill people (which was perfectly balanced before imo).

ToRelax wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

holosoul wrote: »

The thing that's the most upsetting (to me) is that people think sorcs are OP in PVP because some pro player who would have killed them on any class and build killed them. For an average -> above average, but not exceptional 3rd standard deviation of skill level player, sorc is underpowered in PVP. While I'm sure the pros can make sorc look OP (as they would with any class) I honestly don't believe they would get their best results on sorc. If you look for ESO PVP videos on youtube for example, you'll find 80% of the vids are DK/templar, 15% of the vids are some kind of NB, and every few pages you might find 1 sorc video here and there on ps4 where they move like keyboard turners.

Can sorcs quit getting blamed because one of the '3' really good sorcs on your pvp server killed you? As an average player sorc is incredibly fragile.

Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk

Sorcs are absolutely fine in PvP - in some ways they're even overpowered currently (we'll see next patch).

In the latest EU 1v1 tournament, 3 out of the top 5 were sorcerers (a sorcerer even won the whole thing, big surprise...)

In one of the semi-finals there was a sorcerer vs sorcerer fight - after about 10-15 minutes of dueling judges had to pause the fight and both sorcerers took of Harness Magicka. After another 10-15 minutes, they had to take off Hardened Ward as well. Only after this could the fight end at all.

When you have defensive abilities that not only outperform offensive abilities, but do so by a significant margin - there's a big problem.
A 20k shield requires between 2-4 (uncrittable) ability casts to get rid of, double the amount of resources and time it took to cast the shield.

This is the reason even bad players can do well with sorcerer at the moment - they can survive against better players just by spamming shield & blinking away.


This is one reason I'm actually happy about +60% magicka cost increasing poisons - they might finally put an end to that bs.

You might say the game is not balanced for 1v1s - but to that I say it has to be in the future if we're to get the Battlegrounds/Arenas they've promised.


Edit: and yes, there are plenty of other classes whose defensive skills vastly outperform offensive skills of other players', good stamina DKs/stamplars/magplars who know how to stack their +healing buffs etc - but that's a lot to go through in one forum post

And in many others StamDK won the whole thing. As a matter of fact I've never seen a Sorc make it to any of the finals. It's always dominated by Stam classes especially the StamDK.

But no on love the PvP Sorc is not underpowered, truly not they are just fine. And have a few different viable builds in PvP. My pet sorc does well, shield stacker does well, winter born. In PvP the Sorc ON LIVE was ok not OP but certainly not underpowered. However on the dark brotherhood pts. They took a huge hit, and are now underpowered. And besides that the 2 overachieving Stam classes got major buffs. And EVERY magicka class got our Ward. So now when DB hits live, then that's it for Sorcs they will be UNDERPOWERED.

Stamina DKs are insanely strong at the moment, there is no refuting that.

At the moment, I'd say the top 3 classes in PvP are: Stamina DKs, Magicka Sorcs & Magicka Templars.

In the finals of last tournament we had a very skilled stamina Templar as well (which I believe has good chances of being the strongest class in game next patch) who lost to the Magicka Sorc after some 30-40 minutes of dueling.

And yes I agree for the most part that Sorc on Live is fine when it comes to PvP. It requires a good amount of skill to combo the Sorc burst, and without that burst the bad sorcs don't kill any good players.

What is not fine however is the defensive aspect of Sorcs.

Currently, if you want to spam shields, you can do so without ever running out of magicka - and as long as you spam those shields you will not die in 1v1 - not even bad sorcs. The only thing that can counter you is Shield Breaker set which some people use, but there are sorc builds that counter Shield Breaker as well.

The same problem exists for Stamina DKs & Magicka/Stamina Templars who can just stack ridiculous amounts of +healing received & +healing done buffs and then just outheal everything you do.


In my opinion, they should've gone a different route regarding Sorcerer shields - I'm not sure any nerf to duration was even necessary with the +60% magicka cost poisons existing, but we'll see...

If it turns out sorcs can still spam that shield without any regard to their magicka, then they probably should've made the duration start from 20 seconds & then get halved for every shield cast within 4 seconds (up until it lasts only 1s or less) - that way you'd reward people who can keep pressure on the Sorcerer & it'd punish Sorcerers who only spam shields and nothing else.

They should also significantly increase the cost of all self heals so they can't be spammed to fix other classes, if +60% costs poisons doesn't do the job.

I don't think you can compare shields to dodge roll in such a way. Dodge roll effectiveness scales with the number of players attacking the user, shields do not. In practice, you have stamina builds dodging most attacks and using their other skills, which do not have a stacking cost, to deal with the undodgeable ones. A magicka build might instead cast shields or heals to deal with most attacks, and start dodge casting them when there is too much pressure on them.
Then again, I'd rather see the dodge penalty go away in the first place...

You can counter dodge rolling with DoTs, jbeams, well timed DBOS, Invigorating Drain & so on.

Yet, I'm still happy they introduced the stacking dodge cost - infinite dodge rolling was just ridiculous and contributed in its own way towards the "infinite fights" issue.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

WHY OH WHY WOULD ANYONE SUGGEST WE BE PUNISHED FOR USING OUR DEFENSIVE ABILITY??

This is actually a good thing to bring up though, so I feel like making another post about it.

How balance is usually achieved is that you get rewarded for landing combos & putting pressure on the opponent. Defensive skills are the "oh ***" buttons that save you when your opponent is doing better, or abilities used to counter specific instances of burst damage that you have anticipated in advance.

In other games, you'd force your opponents to use their defensive cooldowns & such - in a non-cooldown game like ESO you should force your opponent to use more resources by making them go on the defensive.


The problem currently is that defensive skills aren't the "oh ***" buttons - they're just buttons you spam and you are not punished for doing that.

Your opponent is not rewarded for landing combos & keeping up pressure, he is in fact the one getting punished because offensive actions are not as cost-effective as defensive ones.


What happens is that an endless quagmire of two opponents spamming defensive skills ensues, which lasts until one side gets bored (or instagibbed).

Needless to say, this is not enjoyable gameplay and it's something that needs to be fixed before Arenas/Battlegrounds are implemented (where gameplay is much more focused on 1v1s or 2v2s etc) - else I'm afraid those are going to be poorly received by the general populace.

Well, the way they go about things are already getting poorly recieved by 90% of the sorc population and unbiased players of other classes so dumb decisions from the devs are just part of the game these days.

Given that the 6-second duration doesn't really fix the core issue of the dmg shields, I'm inclined to agree.

We'll see how it functions in conjunction with the base cost increases & cost increasing poisons.

TARAFRAKA

Ye...my twilight heal...that does not benefit from my cp...or resistances..dies in stupid..gets lost behind doors...can't be in summoned in the middle of battle...has to be triple slotted...doesn't cc break....has low health (even with the 5k addition in db)...oh that twilight.
Well I guess everything is fine then.

Minalan

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

One shot kills are more frequent than infinite fights. Anyone who thinks we'll be stacking three shields with a 6s duration each is simply delusional. You'll be hitting a button every 1.5 seconds. It won't work. Or at least you won't be hitting anyone back.

And seriously, are shields any worse than Incap strike or Jesus beam? Magicka bomber nightblades running around with 10K shields? Stam nightblades one shotting people with wonky setups the devs never thought of with their tiny limited imaginations? Did anyone actually PLAY the PTS, or at least watch the devs get murdered every two seconds by stealth classes, or the unkillable Stam DK's?

There are bigger problems with this game than the one sorc that touched you in the naughty place in PVP. And frankly most of the shield nerf suggestions here have been simply moronic. Watch Tuesday, mark my words and watch the forums when this *** goes live.

Sure they are. One cast of Hardened Ward absorbs all the damage of one cast of Incap, jbeam or any other skill.

Making the shields last 6 seconds isn't going to fix the core issue though, people will still be able to spam them forever (if the base cost increases & 60% cost increasing poisons don't fix the issue).

It just makes it harder for sorcs to kill people (which was perfectly balanced before imo).

ToRelax wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

holosoul wrote: »

The thing that's the most upsetting (to me) is that people think sorcs are OP in PVP because some pro player who would have killed them on any class and build killed them. For an average -> above average, but not exceptional 3rd standard deviation of skill level player, sorc is underpowered in PVP. While I'm sure the pros can make sorc look OP (as they would with any class) I honestly don't believe they would get their best results on sorc. If you look for ESO PVP videos on youtube for example, you'll find 80% of the vids are DK/templar, 15% of the vids are some kind of NB, and every few pages you might find 1 sorc video here and there on ps4 where they move like keyboard turners.

Can sorcs quit getting blamed because one of the '3' really good sorcs on your pvp server killed you? As an average player sorc is incredibly fragile.

Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk

Sorcs are absolutely fine in PvP - in some ways they're even overpowered currently (we'll see next patch).

In the latest EU 1v1 tournament, 3 out of the top 5 were sorcerers (a sorcerer even won the whole thing, big surprise...)

In one of the semi-finals there was a sorcerer vs sorcerer fight - after about 10-15 minutes of dueling judges had to pause the fight and both sorcerers took of Harness Magicka. After another 10-15 minutes, they had to take off Hardened Ward as well. Only after this could the fight end at all.

When you have defensive abilities that not only outperform offensive abilities, but do so by a significant margin - there's a big problem.
A 20k shield requires between 2-4 (uncrittable) ability casts to get rid of, double the amount of resources and time it took to cast the shield.

This is the reason even bad players can do well with sorcerer at the moment - they can survive against better players just by spamming shield & blinking away.


This is one reason I'm actually happy about +60% magicka cost increasing poisons - they might finally put an end to that bs.

You might say the game is not balanced for 1v1s - but to that I say it has to be in the future if we're to get the Battlegrounds/Arenas they've promised.


Edit: and yes, there are plenty of other classes whose defensive skills vastly outperform offensive skills of other players', good stamina DKs/stamplars/magplars who know how to stack their +healing buffs etc - but that's a lot to go through in one forum post

And in many others StamDK won the whole thing. As a matter of fact I've never seen a Sorc make it to any of the finals. It's always dominated by Stam classes especially the StamDK.

But no on love the PvP Sorc is not underpowered, truly not they are just fine. And have a few different viable builds in PvP. My pet sorc does well, shield stacker does well, winter born. In PvP the Sorc ON LIVE was ok not OP but certainly not underpowered. However on the dark brotherhood pts. They took a huge hit, and are now underpowered. And besides that the 2 overachieving Stam classes got major buffs. And EVERY magicka class got our Ward. So now when DB hits live, then that's it for Sorcs they will be UNDERPOWERED.

Stamina DKs are insanely strong at the moment, there is no refuting that.

At the moment, I'd say the top 3 classes in PvP are: Stamina DKs, Magicka Sorcs & Magicka Templars.

In the finals of last tournament we had a very skilled stamina Templar as well (which I believe has good chances of being the strongest class in game next patch) who lost to the Magicka Sorc after some 30-40 minutes of dueling.

And yes I agree for the most part that Sorc on Live is fine when it comes to PvP. It requires a good amount of skill to combo the Sorc burst, and without that burst the bad sorcs don't kill any good players.

What is not fine however is the defensive aspect of Sorcs.

Currently, if you want to spam shields, you can do so without ever running out of magicka - and as long as you spam those shields you will not die in 1v1 - not even bad sorcs. The only thing that can counter you is Shield Breaker set which some people use, but there are sorc builds that counter Shield Breaker as well.

The same problem exists for Stamina DKs & Magicka/Stamina Templars who can just stack ridiculous amounts of +healing received & +healing done buffs and then just outheal everything you do.


In my opinion, they should've gone a different route regarding Sorcerer shields - I'm not sure any nerf to duration was even necessary with the +60% magicka cost poisons existing, but we'll see...

If it turns out sorcs can still spam that shield without any regard to their magicka, then they probably should've made the duration start from 20 seconds & then get halved for every shield cast within 4 seconds (up until it lasts only 1s or less) - that way you'd reward people who can keep pressure on the Sorcerer & it'd punish Sorcerers who only spam shields and nothing else.

They should also significantly increase the cost of all self heals so they can't be spammed to fix other classes, if +60% costs poisons doesn't do the job.

I don't think you can compare shields to dodge roll in such a way. Dodge roll effectiveness scales with the number of players attacking the user, shields do not. In practice, you have stamina builds dodging most attacks and using their other skills, which do not have a stacking cost, to deal with the undodgeable ones. A magicka build might instead cast shields or heals to deal with most attacks, and start dodge casting them when there is too much pressure on them.
Then again, I'd rather see the dodge penalty go away in the first place...

You can counter dodge rolling with DoTs, jbeams, well timed DBOS, Invigorating Drain & so on.

Yet, I'm still happy they introduced the stacking dodge cost - infinite dodge rolling was just ridiculous and contributed in its own way towards the "infinite fights" issue.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

WHY OH WHY WOULD ANYONE SUGGEST WE BE PUNISHED FOR USING OUR DEFENSIVE ABILITY??

This is actually a good thing to bring up though, so I feel like making another post about it.

How balance is usually achieved is that you get rewarded for landing combos & putting pressure on the opponent. Defensive skills are the "oh ***" buttons that save you when your opponent is doing better, or abilities used to counter specific instances of burst damage that you have anticipated in advance.

In other games, you'd force your opponents to use their defensive cooldowns & such - in a non-cooldown game like ESO you should force your opponent to use more resources by making them go on the defensive.


The problem currently is that defensive skills aren't the "oh ***" buttons - they're just buttons you spam and you are not punished for doing that.

Your opponent is not rewarded for landing combos & keeping up pressure, he is in fact the one getting punished because offensive actions are not as cost-effective as defensive ones.


What happens is that an endless quagmire of two opponents spamming defensive skills ensues, which lasts until one side gets bored (or instagibbed).

Needless to say, this is not enjoyable gameplay and it's something that needs to be fixed before Arenas/Battlegrounds are implemented (where gameplay is much more focused on 1v1s or 2v2s etc) - else I'm afraid those are going to be poorly received by the general populace.

Well, the way they go about things are already getting poorly recieved by 90% of the sorc population and unbiased players of other classes so dumb decisions from the devs are just part of the game these days.

Given that the 6-second duration doesn't really fix the core issue of the dmg shields, I'm inclined to agree.

We'll see how it functions in conjunction with the base cost increases & cost increasing poisons.

Seriously though, was it that hard to just make shields critable, non-stackable, or both?

That would have left PVE players completely alone, because mobs don't crit. It would have left PVP better off, because a well executed 'combo' would eat into health.

ToRelax

DDuke wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

holosoul wrote: »

The thing that's the most upsetting (to me) is that people think sorcs are OP in PVP because some pro player who would have killed them on any class and build killed them. For an average -> above average, but not exceptional 3rd standard deviation of skill level player, sorc is underpowered in PVP. While I'm sure the pros can make sorc look OP (as they would with any class) I honestly don't believe they would get their best results on sorc. If you look for ESO PVP videos on youtube for example, you'll find 80% of the vids are DK/templar, 15% of the vids are some kind of NB, and every few pages you might find 1 sorc video here and there on ps4 where they move like keyboard turners.

Can sorcs quit getting blamed because one of the '3' really good sorcs on your pvp server killed you? As an average player sorc is incredibly fragile.

Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk

Sorcs are absolutely fine in PvP - in some ways they're even overpowered currently (we'll see next patch).

In the latest EU 1v1 tournament, 3 out of the top 5 were sorcerers (a sorcerer even won the whole thing, big surprise...)

In one of the semi-finals there was a sorcerer vs sorcerer fight - after about 10-15 minutes of dueling judges had to pause the fight and both sorcerers took of Harness Magicka. After another 10-15 minutes, they had to take off Hardened Ward as well. Only after this could the fight end at all.

When you have defensive abilities that not only outperform offensive abilities, but do so by a significant margin - there's a big problem.
A 20k shield requires between 2-4 (uncrittable) ability casts to get rid of, double the amount of resources and time it took to cast the shield.

This is the reason even bad players can do well with sorcerer at the moment - they can survive against better players just by spamming shield & blinking away.


This is one reason I'm actually happy about +60% magicka cost increasing poisons - they might finally put an end to that bs.

You might say the game is not balanced for 1v1s - but to that I say it has to be in the future if we're to get the Battlegrounds/Arenas they've promised.


Edit: and yes, there are plenty of other classes whose defensive skills vastly outperform offensive skills of other players', good stamina DKs/stamplars/magplars who know how to stack their +healing buffs etc - but that's a lot to go through in one forum post

And in many others StamDK won the whole thing. As a matter of fact I've never seen a Sorc make it to any of the finals. It's always dominated by Stam classes especially the StamDK.

But no on love the PvP Sorc is not underpowered, truly not they are just fine. And have a few different viable builds in PvP. My pet sorc does well, shield stacker does well, winter born. In PvP the Sorc ON LIVE was ok not OP but certainly not underpowered. However on the dark brotherhood pts. They took a huge hit, and are now underpowered. And besides that the 2 overachieving Stam classes got major buffs. And EVERY magicka class got our Ward. So now when DB hits live, then that's it for Sorcs they will be UNDERPOWERED.

Stamina DKs are insanely strong at the moment, there is no refuting that.

At the moment, I'd say the top 3 classes in PvP are: Stamina DKs, Magicka Sorcs & Magicka Templars.

In the finals of last tournament we had a very skilled stamina Templar as well (which I believe has good chances of being the strongest class in game next patch) who lost to the Magicka Sorc after some 30-40 minutes of dueling.

And yes I agree for the most part that Sorc on Live is fine when it comes to PvP. It requires a good amount of skill to combo the Sorc burst, and without that burst the bad sorcs don't kill any good players.

What is not fine however is the defensive aspect of Sorcs.

Currently, if you want to spam shields, you can do so without ever running out of magicka - and as long as you spam those shields you will not die in 1v1 - not even bad sorcs. The only thing that can counter you is Shield Breaker set which some people use, but there are sorc builds that counter Shield Breaker as well.

The same problem exists for Stamina DKs & Magicka/Stamina Templars who can just stack ridiculous amounts of +healing received & +healing done buffs and then just outheal everything you do.


In my opinion, they should've gone a different route regarding Sorcerer shields - I'm not sure any nerf to duration was even necessary with the +60% magicka cost poisons existing, but we'll see...

If it turns out sorcs can still spam that shield without any regard to their magicka, then they probably should've made the duration start from 20 seconds & then get halved for every shield cast within 4 seconds (up until it lasts only 1s or less) - that way you'd reward people who can keep pressure on the Sorcerer & it'd punish Sorcerers who only spam shields and nothing else.

They should also significantly increase the cost of all self heals so they can't be spammed to fix other classes, if +60% costs poisons doesn't do the job.

I don't think you can compare shields to dodge roll in such a way. Dodge roll effectiveness scales with the number of players attacking the user, shields do not. In practice, you have stamina builds dodging most attacks and using their other skills, which do not have a stacking cost, to deal with the undodgeable ones. A magicka build might instead cast shields or heals to deal with most attacks, and start dodge casting them when there is too much pressure on them.
Then again, I'd rather see the dodge penalty go away in the first place...

You can counter dodge rolling with DoTs, jbeams, well timed DBOS, Invigorating Drain & so on.

Yet, I'm still happy they introduced the stacking dodge cost - infinite dodge rolling was just ridiculous and contributed in its own way towards the "infinite fights" issue.

I think I made my point about undodgeable skills in the first place.

And I don't think stacking costs on defensive actions are a good solution in general, because you don't have to care about them when you are not under pressure from the enemy, aka outnumbering your enemies. Soft caps didn't care wether you went on the offense or defense, so attackers would run out of resources as well.

Faulgor

I never liked shields in ESO. Either they are too weak or too powerful. In previous TES games, they merely increased your armor rating - what we now have as Resolve and Ward. Simply re-applying an extended health bar never struck me as interesting gameplay, and I feel especially for sorcerers, it has been a crutch that prevented us from getting alternative defensive abilities (likewise, the burst from Overload and Crystal Fragments shuts down all requests for better sustained DPS).

Personally, I wouldn't mind losing Conjured Ward for something else.

In my mind, I can see a buff that increases damage mitigation (like Vampires' Undeath passive) or limits incoming damage (like Dragonknights' Magma Armor) based on current magicka levels: The less magicka you have, the higher your defenses get. E.g., with 80% magicka left, incoming damage is capped at 80% max health, with 10% magicka left, incoming damage is capped at 10% max health. This would lessen the reliance on burst defense and healing, give sorcerers a unique defensive style, and solves the problem of boosting both offense and defense with the same stat (magicka).

And if people still want to continue using shields, they can stick to Annulment.

But that's just my 2 cents.

exiledtyrant

Faulgor wrote: »

I already suggested this in @Wrobel 's Q&A thread, but thought maybe someone over here has some feedback on this idea as well.


I'll just throw these new ability descriptions out there, and if you like, you could give some feedback on them.

Bound Aegis

• Protect yourself with the power of Oblivion creating a suit of Daedric mail that grants Minor Resolve, and Minor Ward, increasing your Armor and Spell Resistance by [x] while slotted.
• When activated, increases Armor Enchantments by 100% for 20 seconds. Consumes 1 filled Soul Gem.

If my math is correct, legendary VR16 armor glyphs would grant 3992 (4791 infused) magicka/stamina and 4391 (5269 infused) health. 7 prismatic glyphs would grant 1996 (2395 infused) magicka/stamina and 2195 (2634 infused) health, for a total of 6187 (7242 infused) attribute points. Although this would be an active buff and not a passive bonus, it would be substantially more for most builds than the current +8% magicka. Further, it is useful for all possible builds, as it improves whatever you chose to enchant your armor with.
Potentially, this skill could also improve jewelry enchantments, but that might require additional balancing.
It could also be considered to keep this skill as a toggle that only consumes 1 filled Soul Gem when first activated, as constantly varying amounts of a max attribute might become annoying.

Bound Armaments

• Protect yourself with the power of Oblivion creating a suit of Daedric mail that grants Minor Resolve, and Minor Ward, increasing your Armor and Spell Resistance by [x] while slotted.
• When activated, removes all Weapon Enchantment cooldowns for 20 seconds. Consumes 1 filled Soul Gem.

This would substantially improve DPS for both magicka and stamina builds without affecting burst damage, like an increase to enchantment potency would. Overload also remains unaffected. It further remove the necessity of a spamable skill, or DoT chains, and instead gives sorcerers something unique to improve class identity.

I have seen a lot of bound armor ideas thrown around lately. This is pretty original though and I like it a lot. I have my own ideas on how to redo some of the skills, but I'll wait to submit feedback until a week after DB has dropped. Again really cool idea. I wouldn't want to have to keep chasing down soul gems though.

NativeJoe

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

One shot kills are more frequent than infinite fights. Anyone who thinks we'll be stacking three shields with a 6s duration each is simply delusional. You'll be hitting a button every 1.5 seconds. It won't work. Or at least you won't be hitting anyone back.

And seriously, are shields any worse than Incap strike or Jesus beam? Magicka bomber nightblades running around with 10K shields? Stam nightblades one shotting people with wonky setups the devs never thought of with their tiny limited imaginations? Did anyone actually PLAY the PTS, or at least watch the devs get murdered every two seconds by stealth classes, or the unkillable Stam DK's?

Given that the 6-second duration doesn't really fix the core issue of the dmg shields, I'm inclined to agree.

We'll see how it functions in conjunction with the base cost increases & cost increasing poisons.

Seriously though, was it that hard to just make shields critable, non-stackable, or both?

That would have left PVE players completely alone, because mobs don't crit. It would have left PVP better off, because a well executed 'combo' would eat into health.

A well execute combo can do it NOW on live. x.x The only reason we're getting nerfed is because some of us did apparently TOO WELL in VMA, and others of us didn't lay down and die to zerglings... so they introduced poisons to make it a stupid idea to even get near any zerg without a zerg backing you up as well. made everything cost more, and simultaneously attacked our damage mitigation and heals + added artificial holes in our defenses. Sorcs are dead in pvp. simply dead. *remember that the intention for poisons is for EVERY single type to be stackable on you and active at the same time. the "bug" that 1 cancels the other right now on pts is just that a "bug"*

After reviewing the issue for PVE... I realize the nerfs to shields and heals are just a reminder that we shouldn't use them.

WE DO NOT have room on our bars for buffs, heals, or utility if we want to do competitive dps.
in short you have 2 bars, 6 attacks, and 4 toggles. (inner light and bound aegis) double slot meteor...and thats your skill set up.
Gear: 2 piece molag kena(or valk/nieranith) x5 twice born star (thief and shadow stone)
3 piece arcane wisdom
2 destro staves. (or alternatively swords)
blue food (health and magicka)
Pot (spell power buff and magicka regen)


Thats ur build...and all of our builds unless you want to embarrass yourself and the rest of us. No shields. No pets. and you MAY rival the dps of another class. May. IF YOU learn to animation cancel like a pro.

Smajestic

NativeJoe wrote: »

and you MAY rival the dps of another class May. IF YOU learn to animation cancel like a pro.

Not true, that the biggest problem sorcerer in PVE Raid in medium fight (more than 3 minutes, with some add, will have 10- 20 % less dps than other class, that's the biggest problem and...
1) sorcerers doesn't help the raid a lot (3 % crit) the worst boost for raid
2) sorcerers have the biggest problem of magicka, because spell cost just more
3) sorcerers have the worst execute in the game... a nice comparison. A templar at 25 % of the boss do per tick the same as the sorcerers at 10 % of the boss, at 5 % of the boss, templar do twice more damage per tic as sorcerers execute.

Samwell Slayer

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

One shot kills are more frequent than infinite fights. Anyone who thinks we'll be stacking three shields with a 6s duration each is simply delusional. You'll be hitting a button every 1.5 seconds. It won't work. Or at least you won't be hitting anyone back.

And seriously, are shields any worse than Incap strike or Jesus beam? Magicka bomber nightblades running around with 10K shields? Stam nightblades one shotting people with wonky setups the devs never thought of with their tiny limited imaginations? Did anyone actually PLAY the PTS, or at least watch the devs get murdered every two seconds by stealth classes, or the unkillable Stam DK's?

There are bigger problems with this game than the one sorc that touched you in the naughty place in PVP. And frankly most of the shield nerf suggestions here have been simply moronic. Watch Tuesday, mark my words and watch the forums when this *** goes live.

Sure they are. One cast of Hardened Ward absorbs all the damage of one cast of Incap, jbeam or any other skill.

Making the shields last 6 seconds isn't going to fix the core issue though, people will still be able to spam them forever (if the base cost increases & 60% cost increasing poisons don't fix the issue).

It just makes it harder for sorcs to kill people (which was perfectly balanced before imo).

ToRelax wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

holosoul wrote: »

The thing that's the most upsetting (to me) is that people think sorcs are OP in PVP because some pro player who would have killed them on any class and build killed them. For an average -> above average, but not exceptional 3rd standard deviation of skill level player, sorc is underpowered in PVP. While I'm sure the pros can make sorc look OP (as they would with any class) I honestly don't believe they would get their best results on sorc. If you look for ESO PVP videos on youtube for example, you'll find 80% of the vids are DK/templar, 15% of the vids are some kind of NB, and every few pages you might find 1 sorc video here and there on ps4 where they move like keyboard turners.

Can sorcs quit getting blamed because one of the '3' really good sorcs on your pvp server killed you? As an average player sorc is incredibly fragile.

Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk

Sorcs are absolutely fine in PvP - in some ways they're even overpowered currently (we'll see next patch).

In the latest EU 1v1 tournament, 3 out of the top 5 were sorcerers (a sorcerer even won the whole thing, big surprise...)

In one of the semi-finals there was a sorcerer vs sorcerer fight - after about 10-15 minutes of dueling judges had to pause the fight and both sorcerers took of Harness Magicka. After another 10-15 minutes, they had to take off Hardened Ward as well. Only after this could the fight end at all.

When you have defensive abilities that not only outperform offensive abilities, but do so by a significant margin - there's a big problem.
A 20k shield requires between 2-4 (uncrittable) ability casts to get rid of, double the amount of resources and time it took to cast the shield.

This is the reason even bad players can do well with sorcerer at the moment - they can survive against better players just by spamming shield & blinking away.


This is one reason I'm actually happy about +60% magicka cost increasing poisons - they might finally put an end to that bs.

You might say the game is not balanced for 1v1s - but to that I say it has to be in the future if we're to get the Battlegrounds/Arenas they've promised.


Edit: and yes, there are plenty of other classes whose defensive skills vastly outperform offensive skills of other players', good stamina DKs/stamplars/magplars who know how to stack their +healing buffs etc - but that's a lot to go through in one forum post

And in many others StamDK won the whole thing. As a matter of fact I've never seen a Sorc make it to any of the finals. It's always dominated by Stam classes especially the StamDK.

But no on love the PvP Sorc is not underpowered, truly not they are just fine. And have a few different viable builds in PvP. My pet sorc does well, shield stacker does well, winter born. In PvP the Sorc ON LIVE was ok not OP but certainly not underpowered. However on the dark brotherhood pts. They took a huge hit, and are now underpowered. And besides that the 2 overachieving Stam classes got major buffs. And EVERY magicka class got our Ward. So now when DB hits live, then that's it for Sorcs they will be UNDERPOWERED.

Stamina DKs are insanely strong at the moment, there is no refuting that.

At the moment, I'd say the top 3 classes in PvP are: Stamina DKs, Magicka Sorcs & Magicka Templars.

In the finals of last tournament we had a very skilled stamina Templar as well (which I believe has good chances of being the strongest class in game next patch) who lost to the Magicka Sorc after some 30-40 minutes of dueling.

And yes I agree for the most part that Sorc on Live is fine when it comes to PvP. It requires a good amount of skill to combo the Sorc burst, and without that burst the bad sorcs don't kill any good players.

What is not fine however is the defensive aspect of Sorcs.

Currently, if you want to spam shields, you can do so without ever running out of magicka - and as long as you spam those shields you will not die in 1v1 - not even bad sorcs. The only thing that can counter you is Shield Breaker set which some people use, but there are sorc builds that counter Shield Breaker as well.

The same problem exists for Stamina DKs & Magicka/Stamina Templars who can just stack ridiculous amounts of +healing received & +healing done buffs and then just outheal everything you do.


In my opinion, they should've gone a different route regarding Sorcerer shields - I'm not sure any nerf to duration was even necessary with the +60% magicka cost poisons existing, but we'll see...

If it turns out sorcs can still spam that shield without any regard to their magicka, then they probably should've made the duration start from 20 seconds & then get halved for every shield cast within 4 seconds (up until it lasts only 1s or less) - that way you'd reward people who can keep pressure on the Sorcerer & it'd punish Sorcerers who only spam shields and nothing else.

They should also significantly increase the cost of all self heals so they can't be spammed to fix other classes, if +60% costs poisons doesn't do the job.

I don't think you can compare shields to dodge roll in such a way. Dodge roll effectiveness scales with the number of players attacking the user, shields do not. In practice, you have stamina builds dodging most attacks and using their other skills, which do not have a stacking cost, to deal with the undodgeable ones. A magicka build might instead cast shields or heals to deal with most attacks, and start dodge casting them when there is too much pressure on them.
Then again, I'd rather see the dodge penalty go away in the first place...

You can counter dodge rolling with DoTs, jbeams, well timed DBOS, Invigorating Drain & so on.

Yet, I'm still happy they introduced the stacking dodge cost - infinite dodge rolling was just ridiculous and contributed in its own way towards the "infinite fights" issue.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

WHY OH WHY WOULD ANYONE SUGGEST WE BE PUNISHED FOR USING OUR DEFENSIVE ABILITY??

This is actually a good thing to bring up though, so I feel like making another post about it.

How balance is usually achieved is that you get rewarded for landing combos & putting pressure on the opponent. Defensive skills are the "oh ***" buttons that save you when your opponent is doing better, or abilities used to counter specific instances of burst damage that you have anticipated in advance.

In other games, you'd force your opponents to use their defensive cooldowns & such - in a non-cooldown game like ESO you should force your opponent to use more resources by making them go on the defensive.


The problem currently is that defensive skills aren't the "oh ***" buttons - they're just buttons you spam and you are not punished for doing that.

Your opponent is not rewarded for landing combos & keeping up pressure, he is in fact the one getting punished because offensive actions are not as cost-effective as defensive ones.


What happens is that an endless quagmire of two opponents spamming defensive skills ensues, which lasts until one side gets bored (or instagibbed).

Needless to say, this is not enjoyable gameplay and it's something that needs to be fixed before Arenas/Battlegrounds are implemented (where gameplay is much more focused on 1v1s or 2v2s etc) - else I'm afraid those are going to be poorly received by the general populace.

Well, the way they go about things are already getting poorly recieved by 90% of the sorc population and unbiased players of other classes so dumb decisions from the devs are just part of the game these days.

Given that the 6-second duration doesn't really fix the core issue of the dmg shields, I'm inclined to agree.

We'll see how it functions in conjunction with the base cost increases & cost increasing poisons.

Seriously though, was it that hard to just make shields critable, non-stackable, or both?

That would have left PVE players completely alone, because mobs don't crit. It would have left PVP better off, because a well executed 'combo' would eat into health.

I agree. While you're at it, you might as well get rid of impen as well (impen not as bad since it subtracts and doesn't divide from your crit damage). Every time I go from PvE to PvP, based on the fact you can't crit shields and the presence of impen I need to change

1) My stone (thief is obviously the best stone for pve, but it's use in PVP is essentially poop)
2) My cp (red tree you need to put points in reducing crit damage, a completely useless skill for pve)
3) My gear. Gotta get that impen gear and/or change to Kags.
4) My morphs. (This isn't too bad vfor my sorc ... far worse for my magika nb, but I still find myself remorphing proxy and mines quite often)

Of course you should need to change your play style and your bars for pvp vs pve. Curse, streak, and mines are great skills for pvp but have limited use in pve, and -- as others in the forum have pointed out -- liquid lightning is the opposite. This is fine.

It has to the only sorc nerf I've ever really wanted!

Samwell Slayer

Every time there's been a patch with a nerf a sorc has gotten the brunt of it. From the beginning, people needed to see streak get nerfed. Then our shields. Then our ability to gain ulti via streak (dks got hit harder by this by exception). Now our shields again. Only major nerfs which come to mind that don't screw sorcs are the cloak nerf and the roll dodge/block nerf. There have been 4 nerfs to streak alone, 3 of which specifically to streak.

And ... overload is still bugged. We have no spam ability (we're the only magika class whose spam ability is not a class one) and one of two stam classes with that distinction (dks are the other, but they have 2 stam class dots giving them 5 ... count them 5 powerful dots) we have to triple double bar an otherwise useless skill to get the same buff a magika nb gets essentially for free (magika nb's going to use syphoning abilities anyway). As it stands now, all of this is for overload. That's the one thing we have left ... I know what they are going to do on the next patch ...).

One aspect of the game we really excelled (past tense) at is vMSA. This, imo, speaks to the flawed design of the arena more than anything else. Our shields allowed us to avoid many of the silly one hit mechanics while our overload allowed us to quickly kill in burst the bosses before we had time to do something stupid ... remember when people used to try to bring substain builds in there? LoL.

Now Stam users in PVP can shield as well as what they already could do: roll, self heal without using an otherwise useless weapon ... (imagine if a stam user had to equip an extra weapon just to use vigor? Or if the two hander did do damage? ), block, and do attacks any one of which could take away half of our stamina leaving us open to some broken ass animation triple cancel doing more than enough damage to kill us an our shields. It's even more fun when fighting a stam dk who have no problem substaining wings ... ever try to velocious curse and streak a stam dk to death who's sniping you while you prary he steps into your mines or falls for the old spam light attack trick? This is how every fight goes when I'm fighting stam dk's in the open world. As the only class without a class ability, we are also the only class without a melee ability (not even a weapon one). Oh wait, we have dawnbreaker ... oh, we had dawnbreaker. We'll losing 25% damage on that while stam users are getting a 25% boost.

Of course somebody will tell me that I'm whining, and they have no problems killing stam dk's while not offering any insight into the differences present On the surface. Of course I can beat bad stam dk's, but I don't have any strategy to beat good ones. .

NativeJoe

And after reviewing the issue

Smajestic wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

and you MAY rival the dps of another class May. IF YOU learn to animation cancel like a pro.

Not true, that the biggest problem sorcerer in PVE Raid in medium fight (more than 3 minutes, with some add, will have 10- 20 % less dps than other class, that's the biggest problem and...
1) sorcerers doesn't help the raid a lot (3 % crit) the worst boost for raid
2) sorcerers have the biggest problem of magicka, because spell cost just more
3) sorcerers have the worst execute in the game... a nice comparison. A templar at 25 % of the boss do per tick the same as the sorcerers at 10 % of the boss, at 5 % of the boss, templar do twice more damage per tic as sorcerers execute.

ummm what part are you disagreeing with me on? You highlighted just a few reasons why we're screwed... I'm saying we're basically screwed. *laughs sadly* is this what it has become...arguing over why we're screwed?

Grao

NativeJoe wrote: »

And after reviewing the issue

Smajestic wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

and you MAY rival the dps of another class May. IF YOU learn to animation cancel like a pro.

Not true, that the biggest problem sorcerer in PVE Raid in medium fight (more than 3 minutes, with some add, will have 10- 20 % less dps than other class, that's the biggest problem and...
1) sorcerers doesn't help the raid a lot (3 % crit) the worst boost for raid
2) sorcerers have the biggest problem of magicka, because spell cost just more
3) sorcerers have the worst execute in the game... a nice comparison. A templar at 25 % of the boss do per tick the same as the sorcerers at 10 % of the boss, at 5 % of the boss, templar do twice more damage per tic as sorcerers execute.

ummm what part are you disagreeing with me on? You highlighted just a few reasons why we're screwed... I'm saying we're basically screwed. *laughs sadly* is this what it has become...arguing over why we're screwed?

Sadly, that is pretty much it. We are screwed from so many sides we can't decide what is worse and the fact @Wrobel knows there are issues and openly declares they have no plans to make changes baffles me. I mean, he admitted Magicka sorcerers are extremely restricted by not having a class spammable and yet... No plans to fix the problem? Really...?

potirondb16_ESO

Grao wrote: »

Natas013 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Gentlemen, it looks like we get 10 seconds on empowered ward now (the pet morph).

With 'Anulment' stacked on top of that, it works for PVE and PVP. It means we don't get instantly crit-killed in a fight after five seconds, and we can do most PVE content without dying constantly.

It's not perfect, but I'll take it at this point. At least it's a good reason to use empowered ward.

I still fail to see how that helps the underlying issue. True the shield rarely lasts much over 6 seconds in boss fights if you're under pressure, and the same can be said in PvP. This change in time seems to encourage shield stacking rather than discourage it. As further evidence of this, we now have two shields that absorb all damage types. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't want to lose another skill slot for a second shield when I can manage with one shield and healing ward for emergencies. Not to mention the fact that shield casting will now have to become part of our rotation while not under pressure. That's gonna be great for our dps though right?

This particular change was likely aimed at helping pet builds. It was well intended but it will still utterly fail to help pets survive though...

Toggle is the ultimate issue of this game, back when I was playing a stamblade it was the same with siphoning attack and now it is almost all over Sorc build again.

cpuScientist

DDuke wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

WHY OH WHY WOULD ANYONE SUGGEST WE BE PUNISHED FOR USING OUR DEFENSIVE ABILITY??

This is actually a good thing to bring up though, so I feel like making another post about it.

How balance is usually achieved is that you get rewarded for landing combos & putting pressure on the opponent. Defensive skills are the "oh ***" buttons that save you when your opponent is doing better, or abilities used to counter specific instances of burst damage that you have anticipated in advance.

In other games, you'd force your opponents to use their defensive cooldowns & such - in a non-cooldown game like ESO you should force your opponent to use more resources by making them go on the defensive.


The problem currently is that defensive skills aren't the "oh ***" buttons - they're just buttons you spam and you are not punished for doing that.

Your opponent is not rewarded for landing combos & keeping up pressure, he is in fact the one getting punished because offensive actions are not as cost-effective as defensive ones.


What happens is that an endless quagmire of two opponents spamming defensive skills ensues, which lasts until one side gets bored (or instagibbed).

Needless to say, this is not enjoyable gameplay and it's something that needs to be fixed before Arenas/Battlegrounds are implemented (where gameplay is much more focused on 1v1s or 2v2s etc) - else I'm afraid those are going to be poorly received by the general populace.

NO it's not an endless quagmire lol, it's a resource race. No one should be punished for spamming offensive OR DEFENSIVE skills. You want to turtle up have it it you want to go on a crazy balls to the walls offensive have at that.

That kind of thought is wrong. This game does not need to be reduced to a cool down PvP, that will completely kill it for ALOT of players. Many came here cause they hated or git sick of the cool down PvP. And that's what you are suggesting basically. So no way can I agree with that.

If someone wants to walk around as an unkillabke fortress and stack shields and regen, have at it. The balance is you will not be able to kill the average player, maybe the new fresh player but not much more.

Why are we trying to stifle every build and every fight and every style of play. ESO Play how you WANT. Not ESO cool down play offensively only. That's just silly, come on!!!

Valrien

The problem with Sorcs is that the utility they SHOULD have in a group is negated by the fact that CC is meaningless for the most part. Bosses are immune to it...hell, most of the vMoL mobs are immune to it. Immunity is handed out like candy for various things, and it can be broken free of in PvP. It's simply a bad class design to have a class have that much CC with so little able to be affected by it.

cpuScientist

DDuke wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

holosoul wrote: »

The thing that's the most upsetting (to me) is that people think sorcs are OP in PVP because some pro player who would have killed them on any class and build killed them. For an average -> above average, but not exceptional 3rd standard deviation of skill level player, sorc is underpowered in PVP. While I'm sure the pros can make sorc look OP (as they would with any class) I honestly don't believe they would get their best results on sorc. If you look for ESO PVP videos on youtube for example, you'll find 80% of the vids are DK/templar, 15% of the vids are some kind of NB, and every few pages you might find 1 sorc video here and there on ps4 where they move like keyboard turners.

Can sorcs quit getting blamed because one of the '3' really good sorcs on your pvp server killed you? As an average player sorc is incredibly fragile.

Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk

Sorcs are absolutely fine in PvP - in some ways they're even overpowered currently (we'll see next patch).

In the latest EU 1v1 tournament, 3 out of the top 5 were sorcerers (a sorcerer even won the whole thing, big surprise...)

In one of the semi-finals there was a sorcerer vs sorcerer fight - after about 10-15 minutes of dueling judges had to pause the fight and both sorcerers took of Harness Magicka. After another 10-15 minutes, they had to take off Hardened Ward as well. Only after this could the fight end at all.

When you have defensive abilities that not only outperform offensive abilities, but do so by a significant margin - there's a big problem.
A 20k shield requires between 2-4 (uncrittable) ability casts to get rid of, double the amount of resources and time it took to cast the shield.

This is the reason even bad players can do well with sorcerer at the moment - they can survive against better players just by spamming shield & blinking away.


This is one reason I'm actually happy about +60% magicka cost increasing poisons - they might finally put an end to that bs.

You might say the game is not balanced for 1v1s - but to that I say it has to be in the future if we're to get the Battlegrounds/Arenas they've promised.


Edit: and yes, there are plenty of other classes whose defensive skills vastly outperform offensive skills of other players', good stamina DKs/stamplars/magplars who know how to stack their +healing buffs etc - but that's a lot to go through in one forum post

And in many others StamDK won the whole thing. As a matter of fact I've never seen a Sorc make it to any of the finals. It's always dominated by Stam classes especially the StamDK.

But no on love the PvP Sorc is not underpowered, truly not they are just fine. And have a few different viable builds in PvP. My pet sorc does well, shield stacker does well, winter born. In PvP the Sorc ON LIVE was ok not OP but certainly not underpowered. However on the dark brotherhood pts. They took a huge hit, and are now underpowered. And besides that the 2 overachieving Stam classes got major buffs. And EVERY magicka class got our Ward. So now when DB hits live, then that's it for Sorcs they will be UNDERPOWERED.

Stamina DKs are insanely strong at the moment, there is no refuting that.

At the moment, I'd say the top 3 classes in PvP are: Stamina DKs, Magicka Sorcs & Magicka Templars.

In the finals of last tournament we had a very skilled stamina Templar as well (which I believe has good chances of being the strongest class in game next patch) who lost to the Magicka Sorc after some 30-40 minutes of dueling.

You are now doing like ZOS and looking at 1 small part of the game. Duels are not the end all be all. In fact they are not even a true part of the game, they are player made events. HOWEVER as I said earlier many many of the duels I've seen or competitions have always had Stam classes on the finals, such as the StamDK Stamplar....

Duels are not all PvP is, in fact it's the smallest subset of what PvP is in this game. And in those other parts the NB is the king. And in this part of PvP stamDK is still one of the top.

Also in your top 3 you make it seem as if those 3 tower above the rest. It's more like StamDK is a distant First, and everyone else is fighting over the rest of the ranks.

Don't be Wrobel, Don't just look at 1% of part of the game and say hahahahahahahahaha seeeeere some players are doing good SO OP OP time to NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF.

cpuScientist

Valrien wrote: »

The problem with Sorcs is that the utility they SHOULD have in a group is negated by the fact that CC is meaningless for the most part. Bosses are immune to it...hell, most of the vMoL mobs are immune to it. Immunity is handed out like candy for various things, and it can be broken free of in PvP. It's simply a bad class design to have a class have that much CC with so little able to be affected by it.

This is a big problem with the class in truth. Rune cage is useless. Maybe StamSorc uses it I guess?(do you guys use it?) We have many useless or highly situational skills, and next to no DPS skills for being what I thought was a DPS class.

cpuScientist

Honestly if people are wanting cool down PvP. Then this really is not the game to play

Smajestic

ZeniMax, you did a great job with the sorcerers, you managed to make a very special class:

For magicka sorcerer:
1) A cost spells significantly higher than other magicka classes for most spells ... Sorcerers are oom first.
2) no magic regen possibility (at least not at the foca Templar, the regen by ulti DK, or siphon NB)
3) no time spammable spell (DK whip, NB, funnel, Templar spear).
4) the worst executed (DK ok not execute, NB Templar and much better) and the shortest execute 19 % (NB 25%, templar 30-40%)
5) The only class with a spell that increases the mana cost each time you use... for some reasons ...
6) the only class with a passif ability that can not make critical ...
7) the only class with so many spells toggle to put in all bars
8) the only class with no proper stam spell.
9) the only real single target without dot spell monocible class (yes, maybe velocity curse butin PVE is not playable because of toggles)
10) 5000 magic in the cost of mine ??? who says better ?
11) shields the nerve (why not perhaps necessary, but there ...)
12) the surge probably become useless ... in PVP and PVE, vivid entropy ah ... really want to sustain life for the sorcerer, in any case never at capturing life NB or 4 strokes lances of the Templar, nor DK ...
13) the most uninteresting group of boost: Templar 5% magic damage to the entire group ... wizard 3% crit and still must use a black magic spell.
14) execute bug that if multiple targets


Should I need to continue my list ?

Jar_Ek

Rune cage? There are some stamina sorcerer builds that use it and it may see more use as we have been forced into DoT builds by the surge changes. But generally on live, not a lot of stamina sorcerers use it.

NativeJoe

Just want a honest answer here.... Our shields heals, and dps are being nerfed and our streak has been all routinely nerfed...

but the recent activity out there has proven something to me. We arn't the kings of mitigation. never where.

I mean just look at this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex85e6Ur84U taken from pvp on 5/29/2016

yes the guy doing it isn't exactly the reputable type (the exploiter not vanzan)... but my god... at the point he's taking 35 meteors to the face before going down... and You guys are telling me SORCS are the ones that need this nerf?

/facepalm Idk what else to say.

RebornV3x

Its funny when I see a Templar or DK tank 5-8 guys but Sorcs need the nerf ok sure...

Ryuho

Srry @Wrobel but sorc QA are just ***, but what we should expect.. Your main goal is to push this DLC and the next DLC and more DLCs.. Class balance, pvp are the last things which interest you and your team..

But just look on EU server, we have so many locked campaigns.. Next year looks promising for MMO market, you think EU pvp ppls will stay in 2017 wtih ESO, dont think so.. Alrdy some of the biggest pvp guild quit.. Just wake up from ur dream and start working if u dont want to loose us.. And I know it's like talking to the wall, but still there is a hope for this game..

Back to sorc topic, I believe we won't get anything more in this DLC, I just hope surge healing will be increased like A LOT.

DDuke

cpuScientist wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

holosoul wrote: »

The thing that's the most upsetting (to me) is that people think sorcs are OP in PVP because some pro player who would have killed them on any class and build killed them. For an average -> above average, but not exceptional 3rd standard deviation of skill level player, sorc is underpowered in PVP. While I'm sure the pros can make sorc look OP (as they would with any class) I honestly don't believe they would get their best results on sorc. If you look for ESO PVP videos on youtube for example, you'll find 80% of the vids are DK/templar, 15% of the vids are some kind of NB, and every few pages you might find 1 sorc video here and there on ps4 where they move like keyboard turners.

Can sorcs quit getting blamed because one of the '3' really good sorcs on your pvp server killed you? As an average player sorc is incredibly fragile.

Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk

Sorcs are absolutely fine in PvP - in some ways they're even overpowered currently (we'll see next patch).

In the latest EU 1v1 tournament, 3 out of the top 5 were sorcerers (a sorcerer even won the whole thing, big surprise...)

In one of the semi-finals there was a sorcerer vs sorcerer fight - after about 10-15 minutes of dueling judges had to pause the fight and both sorcerers took of Harness Magicka. After another 10-15 minutes, they had to take off Hardened Ward as well. Only after this could the fight end at all.

When you have defensive abilities that not only outperform offensive abilities, but do so by a significant margin - there's a big problem.
A 20k shield requires between 2-4 (uncrittable) ability casts to get rid of, double the amount of resources and time it took to cast the shield.

This is the reason even bad players can do well with sorcerer at the moment - they can survive against better players just by spamming shield & blinking away.


This is one reason I'm actually happy about +60% magicka cost increasing poisons - they might finally put an end to that bs.

You might say the game is not balanced for 1v1s - but to that I say it has to be in the future if we're to get the Battlegrounds/Arenas they've promised.


Edit: and yes, there are plenty of other classes whose defensive skills vastly outperform offensive skills of other players', good stamina DKs/stamplars/magplars who know how to stack their +healing buffs etc - but that's a lot to go through in one forum post

And in many others StamDK won the whole thing. As a matter of fact I've never seen a Sorc make it to any of the finals. It's always dominated by Stam classes especially the StamDK.

But no on love the PvP Sorc is not underpowered, truly not they are just fine. And have a few different viable builds in PvP. My pet sorc does well, shield stacker does well, winter born. In PvP the Sorc ON LIVE was ok not OP but certainly not underpowered. However on the dark brotherhood pts. They took a huge hit, and are now underpowered. And besides that the 2 overachieving Stam classes got major buffs. And EVERY magicka class got our Ward. So now when DB hits live, then that's it for Sorcs they will be UNDERPOWERED.

Stamina DKs are insanely strong at the moment, there is no refuting that.

At the moment, I'd say the top 3 classes in PvP are: Stamina DKs, Magicka Sorcs & Magicka Templars.

In the finals of last tournament we had a very skilled stamina Templar as well (which I believe has good chances of being the strongest class in game next patch) who lost to the Magicka Sorc after some 30-40 minutes of dueling.

You are now doing like ZOS and looking at 1 small part of the game. Duels are not the end all be all. In fact they are not even a true part of the game, they are player made events. HOWEVER as I said earlier many many of the duels I've seen or competitions have always had Stam classes on the finals, such as the StamDK Stamplar....

Duels are not all PvP is, in fact it's the smallest subset of what PvP is in this game. And in those other parts the NB is the king. And in this part of PvP stamDK is still one of the top.

Also in your top 3 you make it seem as if those 3 tower above the rest. It's more like StamDK is a distant First, and everyone else is fighting over the rest of the ranks.

Don't be Wrobel, Don't just look at 1% of part of the game and say hahahahahahahahaha seeeeere some players are doing good SO OP OP time to NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF.

I am not looking at only one part of the game, but I am not ignoring it either. Battlegrounds & Arenas are coming, this has been confirmed. The game has to be balanced accordingly, otherwise they will flop, big time.

I can't say I'm looking forward to queueing for arenas where each match vs relatively skilled opponents takes 30+ minutes because no one can kill each other or run out of resources. Yeah, that sounds fun...

Feynn

cpuScientist wrote: »

A Sorc is nothing without OVERLOAD. A skill I am sure many of us hate by now. I really hate OL. It grinds my gear that o have to left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left CLICK!!!!

The other sad thing, apart from relying so much on a skill like Overload which means just "save up your ultimate and then left-click away" (when it doesn't bug out) is that Sorc DPS also relies so much on gear that is not easy to obtain. If you are going to be anywhere near effective with your Overload, you need a full Molag Kena set (which RNGs can make very frustrating to farm). Now I hear people talk about using the Elegance set from vSO... but really, what percentage of the Sorcerer population will be able to get that?