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Official Feedback Thread for Sorcerers
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You can counter dodge rolling with DoTs, jbeams, well timed DBOS, Invigorating Drain & so on.
Yet, I'm still happy they introduced the stacking dodge cost - infinite dodge rolling was just ridiculous and contributed in its own way towards the "infinite fights" issue.
The problem with this statement is: Most good counters to dodge are class specific to non sorcs.
The sorc anti dodge arsenal just got significantly weaker this patch - DBOS and detonation taken out of the equasion (and streak being non vaible since IC).
So either you´re looking at dodge in a 1v1 encounter where realisticly speaking a sorc isn´t going to kill someone dodging aswell as you won´t kill a shieldstacking minecamping sorc or you´re looking at multiple people attacking someone dodging to which one can only reply: Multiple people attacking a sorc will kill that one just fine aswell.
<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Just want a honest answer here.... Our shields heals, and dps are being nerfed and our streak has been all routinely nerfed...
but the recent activity out there has proven something to me. We arn't the kings of mitigation. never where.
I mean just look at this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex85e6Ur84U taken from pvp on 5/29/2016
yes the guy doing it isn't exactly the reputable type... but my god... at the point he's taking 35 meteors to the face before going down... and You guys are telling me SORCS are the ones that need this nerf?
/facepalm Idk what else to say.
It seems like you still don't understand the nature of the problem, at all. The issue wasn't that sorc was necessarily the most durable class, or the class with the most potential tankiness. It's that the class was too heavily carried by a single skill/mechanic that over performed and provided too much return for too little investment and effort. For Vanzan to be that tanky, he has to build for it and make heavy investment towards it. He is probably running full impen, has many CPs invested into block cost reduction, probably running heavy armor, and using sword and board. The result is, he is extremely tanky but had to sacrifice much in the way of damage and sustain for it.
Sorcs on the other hand get ideal tankiness while maintaining optimum offensive potential. Not just in the sense of build, but also in the sense that shield stacking is a proactive rather than reactive defense. The point once again being, the shields provide too much return for too little input, effort, and investment. And sorcs were most heavily carried by this mechanic. It's easy mode survivability. Next patch with the shield duration nerf, sorcs too will have to balance offensive and defensive play, in both character building and actual combat- just like every other class. It's a very well thought out and balanced nerf.
All of this is all irrelevent at any rate, because I could probably face tank that many meteors on my sorc as well. Not exactly hard to do against a single person only spamming meteor. Your video doesn't really show anything other than how out of control cheating is atm.
Edited by CyrusArya on May 29, 2016 1:52PM1 -
Natas013✭✭✭
It seems he never learned the lesson about glass houses and throwing stones.SwaminoNowlino wrote: »But thank you Stevil. I'm glad you have taken upon you the important duty of Vigilante Moderator. May you keep attempting to quash any and all discussion that differs from your point of view with unrelenting condescension and sarcasm. It's a heavy burden, but someone has to do it.
Or it could've been an honest question, based on curiosity. If so, I too wonder how these nerfs have affected sorcs completion numbers of vMA and sorcs scores as a whole compared to live. I know the sample size is small and you probably don't see the attemptsWell @DDuke, shields are boring and I wouldn't mind not even having them as a mechanic, personally I'd be fine with raw frightening levels of damage without any survival mechanics or class defensive abilities. In a group of 8 - 12+ I don't ever run 3 shields, in fact I only use 1 shield in the first place. I understand that the 1vXer builds stack all 3 shields but I don't have the skill slots to do that without sacrificing the good of the group.
Same… mostly. On small scale PvP with no healers present I'll slot rapid regen and healing ward. Half the time my ward goes to group members. 1v1 though Hardened ward and crit surge.
Looks like I'll be running healing ward for 1v1 now though, given the nerf to surge.
Makes me wonder why a DK in a 1v1 tournament didn't have wings slotted. I can't tell you how many shield stacking sorcs I've killed on my STAMDK with the help of that.RIP Ellania Delome
June 9, 2015-June 14, 2016
A skilled crafter, competent sorcerer, and denizen of the night
Along came the Dark Brotherhood and summarily ended it all1 -
cpuScientist✭✭✭✭✭
✭cpuScientist wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »The thing that's the most upsetting (to me) is that people think sorcs are OP in PVP because some pro player who would have killed them on any class and build killed them. For an average -> above average, but not exceptional 3rd standard deviation of skill level player, sorc is underpowered in PVP. While I'm sure the pros can make sorc look OP (as they would with any class) I honestly don't believe they would get their best results on sorc. If you look for ESO PVP videos on youtube for example, you'll find 80% of the vids are DK/templar, 15% of the vids are some kind of NB, and every few pages you might find 1 sorc video here and there on ps4 where they move like keyboard turners.
Can sorcs quit getting blamed because one of the '3' really good sorcs on your pvp server killed you? As an average player sorc is incredibly fragile.
Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk
Sorcs are absolutely fine in PvP - in some ways they're even overpowered currently (we'll see next patch).
In the latest EU 1v1 tournament, 3 out of the top 5 were sorcerers (a sorcerer even won the whole thing, big surprise...)
In one of the semi-finals there was a sorcerer vs sorcerer fight - after about 10-15 minutes of dueling judges had to pause the fight and both sorcerers took of Harness Magicka. After another 10-15 minutes, they had to take off Hardened Ward as well. Only after this could the fight end at all.
When you have defensive abilities that not only outperform offensive abilities, but do so by a significant margin - there's a big problem.
A 20k shield requires between 2-4 (uncrittable) ability casts to get rid of, double the amount of resources and time it took to cast the shield.
This is the reason even bad players can do well with sorcerer at the moment - they can survive against better players just by spamming shield & blinking away.
This is one reason I'm actually happy about +60% magicka cost increasing poisons - they might finally put an end to that bs.
You might say the game is not balanced for 1v1s - but to that I say it has to be in the future if we're to get the Battlegrounds/Arenas they've promised.
Edit: and yes, there are plenty of other classes whose defensive skills vastly outperform offensive skills of other players', good stamina DKs/stamplars/magplars who know how to stack their +healing buffs etc - but that's a lot to go through in one forum post
And in many others StamDK won the whole thing. As a matter of fact I've never seen a Sorc make it to any of the finals. It's always dominated by Stam classes especially the StamDK.
But no on love the PvP Sorc is not underpowered, truly not they are just fine. And have a few different viable builds in PvP. My pet sorc does well, shield stacker does well, winter born. In PvP the Sorc ON LIVE was ok not OP but certainly not underpowered. However on the dark brotherhood pts. They took a huge hit, and are now underpowered. And besides that the 2 overachieving Stam classes got major buffs. And EVERY magicka class got our Ward. So now when DB hits live, then that's it for Sorcs they will be UNDERPOWERED.
Stamina DKs are insanely strong at the moment, there is no refuting that.
At the moment, I'd say the top 3 classes in PvP are: Stamina DKs, Magicka Sorcs & Magicka Templars.
In the finals of last tournament we had a very skilled stamina Templar as well (which I believe has good chances of being the strongest class in game next patch) who lost to the Magicka Sorc after some 30-40 minutes of dueling.
You are now doing like ZOS and looking at 1 small part of the game. Duels are not the end all be all. In fact they are not even a true part of the game, they are player made events. HOWEVER as I said earlier many many of the duels I've seen or competitions have always had Stam classes on the finals, such as the StamDK Stamplar....
Duels are not all PvP is, in fact it's the smallest subset of what PvP is in this game. And in those other parts the NB is the king. And in this part of PvP stamDK is still one of the top.
Also in your top 3 you make it seem as if those 3 tower above the rest. It's more like StamDK is a distant First, and everyone else is fighting over the rest of the ranks.
Don't be Wrobel, Don't just look at 1% of part of the game and say hahahahahahahahaha seeeeere some players are doing good SO OP OP time to NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF.
I am not looking at only one part of the game, but I am not ignoring it either. Battlegrounds & Arenas are coming, this has been confirmed. The game has to be balanced accordingly, otherwise they will flop, big time.
I can't say I'm looking forward to queueing for arenas where each match vs relatively skilled opponents takes 30+ minutes because no one can kill each other or run out of resources. Yeah, that sounds fun...
It seems like you are, you are calling for drastic changes specifically too lessen match time in duels.
However I'll repeat, ESO was billed by the devs as a non cool down game. If players find the best way to fight is to be a fortress unable to take damage with stacked regen health and going into Vampirism. So be it, that's how they choose to play. But saying NO you have to play offensively, choice be damned is silly.
Now let's take a look at how this would work in other parts of the game, like open world PvP, I was involved in a huge brawl in the imperial city last night I would be at 50% health trying to heal back, but 2 other characters near me kept taking my breath of life. So in your proposed method, I who have used my heal and had it go to others will now be punished for trying to heal. Same if you try and use ward.
Now in PvP it's hard for a tank, but they play a role, they bait and keep players occupied doing paltry damage, so other squishy players who went full offense in gear and stay choices can come in and try to do HARD DPS. Cause that's how they chose to play.
I get that you may not be forward to long fights which do happen on occasion. Especially with very skilled players (not just average Joe's) but a much more common occurrence is that of the 1-5 second fight where players are instaganked. I am not looking forward to that either.
So let's go through a duel in your supposed method. StamDK vs Templar - Templar drops a meteor and the DK blocks no real damage they then gap close Into uppercut and CC you and get another uppercut, you break free and heal (not to full) now they see you have healed so they know that after this heal the next one will be halved and cost more, so they do the uppercut leap execute combo now you're stuck there taking it and can't heal through it. You block stand insta gone you roll no Stam you run gap close. A Sorc same thing. They throw on their mitigation shields take the blow then try for another and once again dead in the water.
It's turns into who can burst first. Well news flash the Sorc burst is different from everyone else's, ours take time to set up its delayed, we need a proc which can take a few seconds curse also takes a few (can be purged aswell) mines requires you to jump on them, so a Stam class just has to pressure you into pressing shield and they win because you can get burst down extremely quickly now that shield is on a cooldown. And you have to block now so your Stam is gone, if you manage to survive to put on a full powered shield so uppercut or fear will.leave you on the ground. This proposed system would swing swing swing the pendulum all the way over to Stam builds (where it already is by the by) and leave magicka classes having to slot as many different heals as possible, resto staff having to be slotted to get extra heals, further stifling builds.
Now they can try to balance for duels, for PvP, and for PvE. Well that becomes a nightmare scenario. They can't even balance for 2 and now a 3rd, haha nope.
Cooldown systems may work in other games but those other games have alot more skills slots. And are usually much slower paced than ESO. So I simply have to disagree and have to argue against the notion that this game needs cooldowns. When it was promised from the beginning that this would not be the case and the game was built on that very base, it would require.a massive overhaul, and spot on the face their of play how you want mantra. That is all.1 -
cpuScientist✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just want a honest answer here.... Our shields heals, and dps are being nerfed and our streak has been all routinely nerfed...
but the recent activity out there has proven something to me. We arn't the kings of mitigation. never where.
I mean just look at thishttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex85e6Ur84U taken from pvp on 5/29/2016
yes the guy doing it isn't exactly the reputable type... but my god... at the point he's taking 35 meteors to the face before going down... and You guys are telling me SORCS are the ones that need this nerf?
/facepalm Idk what else to say.
It seems like you still don't understand the nature of the problem, at all. The issue wasn't that sorc was necessarily the most durable class, or the class with the most potential tankiness. It's that the class was too heavily carried by a single skill/mechanic that over performed and provided too much return for too little investment and effort. For Vanzan to be that tanky, he has to build for it and make heavy investment towards it. He is probably running full impen, has many CPs invested into block cost reduction, probably running heavy armor, and using sword and board. The result is, he is extremely tanky but had to sacrifice much in the way of damage and sustain for it.
Sorcs on the other hand get ideal tankiness while maintaining optimum offensive potential. Not just in the sense of build, but also in the sense that shield stacking is a proactive rather than reactive defense. The point once again being, the shields provide too much return for too little input, effort, and investment. And sorcs were most heavily carried by this mechanic. It's easy mode survivability. Next patch with the shield duration nerf, sorcs too will have to balance offensive and defensive play, in both character building and actual combat- just like every other class. It's a very well thought out and balanced nerf. And quite frankly, if you've only ever played a sorc, you don't have enough perspective to assert claims in comparing various classes as far as I'm concerned. Your mind is blown by this video cus you have no idea how a Templar works or what a Templar had to do to attain that level of survivability.
All of this is all irrelevent at any rate, because I could probably face tank that many meteors on my sorc as well. Not exactly hard to do against a single person only spamming meteor.
Yea tell him because, Nightblade don't really hugely on one mechanic, and templars don't rely hugely on breath or DK on wings.... Every class has a token defense. That they then mix in with other skills to form a play style.
When a Templar gets zeroed in on, they spam breath. A NB cloak, a DK wings or any heal they choose. Sorc shields were never as big a problem as cloak.
And vanzan is over and beyond the tank level of a Sorc far beyond. He built for that and sacrificed to get there sure. But for my Templar all I did was make a light armor impen set. And I'm already matching the tankiness of my Sorc with shields while keeping my damage And in the next patch my Templar will also have a shield.
A NB could cloak and where are those meteors gonna go?0 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
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NB can't cloak Meteor anymore, thats true.cpuScientist wrote: »A NB could cloak and where are those meteors gonna go?
Edited by Cinbri on May 29, 2016 2:10PM0 -
cpuScientist✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also can we talk about how far healing ward now outperforms hardened. If you are in trouble why cast hardened when at least with healing you get quick heal and then a burst heal.
Also to the argument of why so many players hate destro staves. The destruction staff has a weak dot when compared to other classes dots, (but it's our only viable real dot), it's spammable underperforms vs other classes which cost near half and do a bit more damage and some even heal the player, and while impulse is ok, all three other classes AoE spammable is far BETTER. Sweeps heals and does great damage NB heals and does more damage, Flame talons roots and does more damage and DK also has breath which heals and does supplementary damage.
In both the AoE and single target department we have nearly nothing g that can truly compete in terms of flat out damage cost or utility. We have many skills that make you shake your head as to their use or implementation. Rune Cage and dark deal and bound armor as 3 examples.
When you take a step back and look at the Sorc class, you see a disjointed aimless class unsure of its identity. With no real reason to be in the game.
The only Lance we excelled was in Solo PvE content. We were the kings of that small part of the game no doubt. I even became a Sorc because I am always a summoner or mage in games. And I wanted a class that I could solo with. That part of the game is now dead so is every other part of the Sorc experience. Just mediocrity.
If you see after DB someone doing well with a Sorc KNOW THIS they do so IN SPITE of being a Sorc not because of it.2 -
cpuScientist✭✭✭✭✭
✭
NB can't cloak Meteor anymore, thats true.cpuScientist wrote: »A NB could cloak and where are those meteors gonna go?
Oh nice on live they can, on DB no more that's a good change. But that NB was in cloak before he got their lol sneaky buggers they are.Edited by cpuScientist on May 29, 2016 2:17PM0 -
cpuScientist✭✭✭✭✭
✭Let's do something really quick let's all take a step back and look at the classes and try to see what thier identity really is.
DK - Tank/DPS stand your ground and CC
Templar - Heal/DPS strong burst heals and channeled heavy hitters
NB - DPS strong burst DPS and sustain DPS also best stealth
Sorc? - Weak DPS? Weak Summoner? Weak utility? CC master?
What are we someone tell me what the purpose of this class is in Dark Brotherhood.
@Wrobel what are we?0 -
NativeJoe✭✭✭✭✭cpuScientist wrote: »
A Sorc is nothing without OVERLOAD. A skill I am sure many of us hate by now. I really hate OL. It grinds my gear that o have to left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left CLICK!!!!
The other sad thing, apart from relying so much on a skill like Overload which means just "save up your ultimate and then left-click away" (when it doesn't bug out) is that Sorc DPS also relies so much on gear that is not easy to obtain. If you are going to be anywhere near effective with your Overload, you need a full Molag Kena set (which RNGs can make very frustrating to farm). Now I hear people talk about using the Elegance set from vSO... but really, what percentage of the Sorcerer population will be able to get that?
it's BOE last I checked so... quite a few with money will be able to get it. Now as for actually going and getting it? probably not very many if VMOL is any indication.650cp+ Sorcerer 100+ days /played
Broken'Stick North American Server
https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭cpuScientist wrote: »The thing that's the most upsetting (to me) is that people think sorcs are OP in PVP because some pro player who would have killed them on any class and build killed them. For an average -> above average, but not exceptional 3rd standard deviation of skill level player, sorc is underpowered in PVP. While I'm sure the pros can make sorc look OP (as they would with any class) I honestly don't believe they would get their best results on sorc. If you look for ESO PVP videos on youtube for example, you'll find 80% of the vids are DK/templar, 15% of the vids are some kind of NB, and every few pages you might find 1 sorc video here and there on ps4 where they move like keyboard turners.
Can sorcs quit getting blamed because one of the '3' really good sorcs on your pvp server killed you? As an average player sorc is incredibly fragile.
Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk
Sorcs are absolutely fine in PvP - in some ways they're even overpowered currently (we'll see next patch).
In the latest EU 1v1 tournament, 3 out of the top 5 were sorcerers (a sorcerer even won the whole thing, big surprise...)
In one of the semi-finals there was a sorcerer vs sorcerer fight - after about 10-15 minutes of dueling judges had to pause the fight and both sorcerers took of Harness Magicka. After another 10-15 minutes, they had to take off Hardened Ward as well. Only after this could the fight end at all.
When you have defensive abilities that not only outperform offensive abilities, but do so by a significant margin - there's a big problem.
A 20k shield requires between 2-4 (uncrittable) ability casts to get rid of, double the amount of resources and time it took to cast the shield.
This is the reason even bad players can do well with sorcerer at the moment - they can survive against better players just by spamming shield & blinking away.
This is one reason I'm actually happy about +60% magicka cost increasing poisons - they might finally put an end to that bs.
You might say the game is not balanced for 1v1s - but to that I say it has to be in the future if we're to get the Battlegrounds/Arenas they've promised.
Edit: and yes, there are plenty of other classes whose defensive skills vastly outperform offensive skills of other players', good stamina DKs/stamplars/magplars who know how to stack their +healing buffs etc - but that's a lot to go through in one forum post
And in many others StamDK won the whole thing. As a matter of fact I've never seen a Sorc make it to any of the finals. It's always dominated by Stam classes especially the StamDK.
But no on love the PvP Sorc is not underpowered, truly not they are just fine. And have a few different viable builds in PvP. My pet sorc does well, shield stacker does well, winter born. In PvP the Sorc ON LIVE was ok not OP but certainly not underpowered. However on the dark brotherhood pts. They took a huge hit, and are now underpowered. And besides that the 2 overachieving Stam classes got major buffs. And EVERY magicka class got our Ward. So now when DB hits live, then that's it for Sorcs they will be UNDERPOWERED.
Stamina DKs are insanely strong at the moment, there is no refuting that.
At the moment, I'd say the top 3 classes in PvP are: Stamina DKs, Magicka Sorcs & Magicka Templars.
In the finals of last tournament we had a very skilled stamina Templar as well (which I believe has good chances of being the strongest class in game next patch) who lost to the Magicka Sorc after some 30-40 minutes of dueling.
And yes I agree for the most part that Sorc on Live is fine when it comes to PvP. It requires a good amount of skill to combo the Sorc burst, and without that burst the bad sorcs don't kill any good players.
What is not fine however is the defensive aspect of Sorcs.
Currently, if you want to spam shields, you can do so without ever running out of magicka - and as long as you spam those shields you will not die in 1v1 - not even bad sorcs. The only thing that can counter you is Shield Breaker set which some people use, but there are sorc builds that counter Shield Breaker as well.
The same problem exists for Stamina DKs & Magicka/Stamina Templars who can just stack ridiculous amounts of +healing received & +healing done buffs and then just outheal everything you do.
In my opinion, they should've gone a different route regarding Sorcerer shields - I'm not sure any nerf to duration was even necessary with the +60% magicka cost poisons existing, but we'll see...
If it turns out sorcs can still spam that shield without any regard to their magicka, then they probably should've made the duration start from 20 seconds & then get halved for every shield cast within 4 seconds (up until it lasts only 1s or less) - that way you'd reward people who can keep pressure on the Sorcerer & it'd punish Sorcerers who only spam shields and nothing else.
They should also significantly increase the cost of all self heals so they can't be spammed to fix other classes, if +60% costs poisons doesn't do the job.
WHY OH WHY WOULD ANYONE SUGGEST WE BE PUNISHED FOR USING OUR DEFENSIVE ABILITY??
I recast ward constantly in vma. Constantly. So you suggest that 45 seconds into the round I'll be casting a shield that lasts me a millisecond? Combined with the surge nerf we would have ZERO way to survive whatsoever since surge is a flat heal now and it's affected by battle spirit as well.
Balancing the entire game for PVP does NOT work! And I PVP!!
We are the ONLY class that is punished for using a skill back to back. Tell you what, I'll be OK with shield duration cut in half for recasting in 4 seconds when we see Templar BOL halved for recasting as well until they heal for 5hps if they spam it, as well as nightnightblades spamming cloak.
There's a wee difference between using your defensive ability and downright spamming it for immunity mode.
In vMSA, magicka NBs, DKs & Templars have been doing just fine without 20k on-demand shield, and before you say "b-but they have heals!" take a look at your Twilight Matriarch. Alternatively, get more health on your sorcerer & use the Clannfear pet for heals (it's a very strong self heal).
Spoken like someone who has never tried difficult content on a sorcerer. Why don't you take a look at templar puncturing sweeps and tell us again about the fine distinction between spamming and using. Or is it OK for templars because it's an offensive ability?
Tell me Duke, why don't we make all Sorcerer skills escalate costs? And Overload too, right? Can't have sorcs spamming that.
Edited by Joy_Division on May 29, 2016 2:33PM3 -
cpuScientist✭✭✭✭✭
✭cpuScientist wrote: »
A Sorc is nothing without OVERLOAD. A skill I am sure many of us hate by now. I really hate OL. It grinds my gear that o have to left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left click left CLICK!!!!
The other sad thing, apart from relying so much on a skill like Overload which means just "save up your ultimate and then left-click away" (when it doesn't bug out) is that Sorc DPS also relies so much on gear that is not easy to obtain. If you are going to be anywhere near effective with your Overload, you need a full Molag Kena set (which RNGs can make very frustrating to farm). Now I hear people talk about using the Elegance set from vSO... but really, what percentage of the Sorcerer population will be able to get that?
it's BOE last I checked so... quite a few with money will be able to get it. Now as for actually going and getting it? probably not very many if VMOL is any indication.
LOL now we have to build specifically around OL hahahaha I hate that ultimate so sooo bad. Left Click Left Click Left Click... I hear it in my nightmares3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You can counter dodge rolling with DoTs, jbeams, well timed DBOS, Invigorating Drain & so on.
Yet, I'm still happy they introduced the stacking dodge cost - infinite dodge rolling was just ridiculous and contributed in its own way towards the "infinite fights" issue.
The problem with this statement is: Most good counters to dodge are class specific to non sorcs.
The sorc anti dodge arsenal just got significantly weaker this patch - DBOS and detonation taken out of the equasion (and streak being non vaible since IC).
So either you´re looking at dodge in a 1v1 encounter where realisticly speaking a sorc isn´t going to kill someone dodging aswell as you won´t kill a shieldstacking minecamping sorc or you´re looking at multiple people attacking someone dodging to which one can only reply: Multiple people attacking a sorc will kill that one just fine aswell.
Yeah, you are not mistaken with that assessment - that's why I'm happy that there's a stacking cost on roll dodge meaning that if you pressure someone into spamming it, that person is going to die. If you currently pressure someone into spamming shields, that person won't die. We'll see how that works after base skill cost increases & cost increasing poisons.
@cpuScientist
I must admit I didn't read through that whole wall of text - but who said anything about adding cooldowns & such?
The problem at the moment is simple & very obvious: defensive skills are more cost-efficient than offensive ones. This has little to do with cooldowns.
In a resource based game with zero cooldowns, your defensive skills should be the less cost-efficient ones.
If you're constantly forced into playing defensively, then you should be punished more resources wise than the player(s) trying to kill you.
The only other outcome is endless fights.
This is why I said the 6s shield duration is not the solution to ESO's problems - it does nothing to prevent spamming those shields, but actually hurts players who want to play offensively rather than spam shields.
So the solution should be aimed towards preventing the spamming of those shields rather than cutting down the duration - though cost increasing poisons may fix that issue as well (in which case I believe reducing the shield duration as well was a step too far).2 -
Natas013✭✭✭Samwell Slayer wrote: »Every time there's been a patch with a nerf a sorc has gotten the brunt of it. From the beginning, people needed to see streak get nerfed. Then our shields. Then our ability to gain ulti via streak (dks got hit harder by this by exception). Now our shields again. Only major nerfs which come to mind that don't screw sorcs are the cloak nerf and the roll dodge/block nerf. There have been 4 nerfs to streak alone, 3 of which specifically to streak.
And ... overload is still bugged. We have no spam ability (we're the only magika class whose spam ability is not a class one) and one of two stam classes with that distinction (dks are the other, but they have 2 stam class dots giving them 5 ... count them 5 powerful dots) we have to triple double bar an otherwise useless skill to get the same buff a magika nb gets essentially for free (magika nb's going to use syphoning abilities anyway). As it stands now, all of this is for overload. That's the one thing we have left ... I know what they are going to do on the next patch ...).
One aspect of the game we really excelled (past tense) at is vMSA. This, imo, speaks to the flawed design of the arena more than anything else. Our shields allowed us to avoid many of the silly one hit mechanics while our overload allowed us to quickly kill in burst the bosses before we had time to do something stupid ... remember when people used to try to bring substain builds in there? LoL.
Now Stam users in PVP can shield as well as what they already could do: roll, self heal without using an otherwise useless weapon ... (imagine if a stam user had to equip an extra weapon just to use vigor? Or if the two hander did do damage? ), block, and do attacks any one of which could take away half of our stamina leaving us open to some broken ass animation triple cancel doing more than enough damage to kill us an our shields. It's even more fun when fighting a stam dk who have no problem substaining wings ... ever try to velocious curse and streak a stam dk to death who's sniping you while you prary he steps into your mines or falls for the old spam light attack trick? This is how every fight goes when I'm fighting stam dk's in the open world. As the only class without a class ability, we are also the only class without a melee ability (not even a weapon one). Oh wait, we have dawnbreaker ... oh, we had dawnbreaker. We'll losing 25% damage on that while stam users are getting a 25% boost.
Of course somebody will tell me that I'm whining, and they have no problems killing stam dk's while not offering any insight into the differences present On the surface. Of course I can beat bad stam dk's, but I don't have any strategy to beat good ones. .
I play one such stam DK, still trying to figure a way to beat the build aside from with a little dumb luck on a magplar build. There are a few other stam DK builds I struggle against, especially if the person is just better than me.RIP Ellania Delome
June 9, 2015-June 14, 2016
A skilled crafter, competent sorcerer, and denizen of the night
Along came the Dark Brotherhood and summarily ended it all0 -
Natas013✭✭✭cpuScientist wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »The thing that's the most upsetting (to me) is that people think sorcs are OP in PVP because some pro player who would have killed them on any class and build killed them. For an average -> above average, but not exceptional 3rd standard deviation of skill level player, sorc is underpowered in PVP. While I'm sure the pros can make sorc look OP (as they would with any class) I honestly don't believe they would get their best results on sorc. If you look for ESO PVP videos on youtube for example, you'll find 80% of the vids are DK/templar, 15% of the vids are some kind of NB, and every few pages you might find 1 sorc video here and there on ps4 where they move like keyboard turners.
Can sorcs quit getting blamed because one of the '3' really good sorcs on your pvp server killed you? As an average player sorc is incredibly fragile.
Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk
Sorcs are absolutely fine in PvP - in some ways they're even overpowered currently (we'll see next patch).
In the latest EU 1v1 tournament, 3 out of the top 5 were sorcerers (a sorcerer even won the whole thing, big surprise...)
In one of the semi-finals there was a sorcerer vs sorcerer fight - after about 10-15 minutes of dueling judges had to pause the fight and both sorcerers took of Harness Magicka. After another 10-15 minutes, they had to take off Hardened Ward as well. Only after this could the fight end at all.
When you have defensive abilities that not only outperform offensive abilities, but do so by a significant margin - there's a big problem.
A 20k shield requires between 2-4 (uncrittable) ability casts to get rid of, double the amount of resources and time it took to cast the shield.
This is the reason even bad players can do well with sorcerer at the moment - they can survive against better players just by spamming shield & blinking away.
This is one reason I'm actually happy about +60% magicka cost increasing poisons - they might finally put an end to that bs.
You might say the game is not balanced for 1v1s - but to that I say it has to be in the future if we're to get the Battlegrounds/Arenas they've promised.
Edit: and yes, there are plenty of other classes whose defensive skills vastly outperform offensive skills of other players', good stamina DKs/stamplars/magplars who know how to stack their +healing buffs etc - but that's a lot to go through in one forum post
And in many others StamDK won the whole thing. As a matter of fact I've never seen a Sorc make it to any of the finals. It's always dominated by Stam classes especially the StamDK.
But no on love the PvP Sorc is not underpowered, truly not they are just fine. And have a few different viable builds in PvP. My pet sorc does well, shield stacker does well, winter born. In PvP the Sorc ON LIVE was ok not OP but certainly not underpowered. However on the dark brotherhood pts. They took a huge hit, and are now underpowered. And besides that the 2 overachieving Stam classes got major buffs. And EVERY magicka class got our Ward. So now when DB hits live, then that's it for Sorcs they will be UNDERPOWERED.
Stamina DKs are insanely strong at the moment, there is no refuting that.
At the moment, I'd say the top 3 classes in PvP are: Stamina DKs, Magicka Sorcs & Magicka Templars.
In the finals of last tournament we had a very skilled stamina Templar as well (which I believe has good chances of being the strongest class in game next patch) who lost to the Magicka Sorc after some 30-40 minutes of dueling.
You are now doing like ZOS and looking at 1 small part of the game. Duels are not the end all be all. In fact they are not even a true part of the game, they are player made events. HOWEVER as I said earlier many many of the duels I've seen or competitions have always had Stam classes on the finals, such as the StamDK Stamplar....
Duels are not all PvP is, in fact it's the smallest subset of what PvP is in this game. And in those other parts the NB is the king. And in this part of PvP stamDK is still one of the top.
Also in your top 3 you make it seem as if those 3 tower above the rest. It's more like StamDK is a distant First, and everyone else is fighting over the rest of the ranks.
Don't be Wrobel, Don't just look at 1% of part of the game and say hahahahahahahahaha seeeeere some players are doing good SO OP OP time to NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF.
I am not looking at only one part of the game, but I am not ignoring it either. Battlegrounds & Arenas are coming, this has been confirmed. The game has to be balanced accordingly, otherwise they will flop, big time.
I can't say I'm looking forward to queueing for arenas where each match vs relatively skilled opponents takes 30+ minutes because no one can kill each other or run out of resources. Yeah, that sounds fun...
It actually does sound fun. Que in to instantly crush or get instantly crushed would be dull.
RIP Ellania Delome
June 9, 2015-June 14, 2016
A skilled crafter, competent sorcerer, and denizen of the night
Along came the Dark Brotherhood and summarily ended it all2 -
NativeJoe✭✭✭✭✭Just want a honest answer here.... Our shields heals, and dps are being nerfed and our streak has been all routinely nerfed...
but the recent activity out there has proven something to me. We arn't the kings of mitigation. never where.
I mean just look at thishttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex85e6Ur84U taken from pvp on 5/29/2016
yes the guy doing it isn't exactly the reputable type(the exploiter not vanzan)... but my god... at the point he's taking 35 meteors to the face before going down... and You guys are telling me SORCS are the ones that need this nerf?
/facepalm Idk what else to say.
It seems like you still don't understand the nature of the problem, at all. The issue wasn't that sorc was necessarily the most durable class, or the class with the most potential tankiness. It's that the class was too heavily carried by a single skill/mechanic that over performed and provided too much return for too little investment and effort. For Vanzan to be that tanky, he has to build for it and make heavy investment towards it. He is probably running full impen, has many CPs invested into block cost reduction, probably running heavy armor, and using sword and board. The result is, he is extremely tanky but had to sacrifice much in the way of damage and sustain for it.
Sorcs on the other hand get ideal tankiness while maintaining optimum offensive potential. Not just in the sense of build, but also in the sense that shield stacking is a proactive rather than reactive defense. The point once again being, the shields provide too much return for too little input, effort, and investment. And sorcs were most heavily carried by this mechanic. It's easy mode survivability. Next patch with the shield duration nerf, sorcs too will have to balance offensive and defensive play, in both character building and actual combat- just like every other class. It's a very well thought out and balanced nerf.
All of this is all irrelevent at any rate, because I could probably face tank that many meteors on my sorc as well. Not exactly hard to do against a single person only spamming meteor. Your video doesn't really show anything other than how out of control cheating is atm.
Tell me then... what constitutes investment? I have several million into my character. 100 /played days, and stacking magicka has never yielded the significant dps. I can run around with 64k magicka but I'll do less then 5k dps and have zero defense. One of my builds can handle tanking any 4 man. But when it comes to trials I could never touch anything like this templar can because so many things stun, I'll have 6 second shields, Do massive physical amounts of damage, and SO does unresistable damage which means shields are pointless.
But sure, I have no skill, no investment in my character, and even you could take 35 meteors to the face <.<
experiment health build
max magicka
pvp shield experiment
Last patch kill counter
this patch kill counter
max stats fun
Question: when you say all these things, or anyone does... have you guys ever tried playing anything non meta? IE didn't go to Yolo to copy paste your build? Do you realize why other things arn't meta? Because if we play ANY OTHER WAY our dps drops off a cliff and we have the worst supporting skills for other styles of game play... just throwing that out there.
All this nerf does is make non-meta build even more rare, even harder to make, and in some cases destroys the build altogether. Not that anyone cares because if you don't play meta your not a good sorc right? I just wish I didn't suffer from a complete lack skill and sense of apathy... that way I could stop the "too little investment and effort" gravy train I've been on.
Have you ever tried playing a sorc without shields. Try to play it like other classes magickally? It goes horribly. even if you stack your stats, gear, or whatever else in whatever form you want too. I've actually tried it out. even having 38k resistance and 75k health people can still kill my character in 4-5 seconds. the sorc tool kit sucks that badly.Edited by NativeJoe on May 30, 2016 2:08AM650cp+ Sorcerer 100+ days /played
Broken'Stick North American Server
https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭cpuScientist wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »The thing that's the most upsetting (to me) is that people think sorcs are OP in PVP because some pro player who would have killed them on any class and build killed them. For an average -> above average, but not exceptional 3rd standard deviation of skill level player, sorc is underpowered in PVP. While I'm sure the pros can make sorc look OP (as they would with any class) I honestly don't believe they would get their best results on sorc. If you look for ESO PVP videos on youtube for example, you'll find 80% of the vids are DK/templar, 15% of the vids are some kind of NB, and every few pages you might find 1 sorc video here and there on ps4 where they move like keyboard turners.
Can sorcs quit getting blamed because one of the '3' really good sorcs on your pvp server killed you? As an average player sorc is incredibly fragile.
Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk
Sorcs are absolutely fine in PvP - in some ways they're even overpowered currently (we'll see next patch).
In the latest EU 1v1 tournament, 3 out of the top 5 were sorcerers (a sorcerer even won the whole thing, big surprise...)
In one of the semi-finals there was a sorcerer vs sorcerer fight - after about 10-15 minutes of dueling judges had to pause the fight and both sorcerers took of Harness Magicka. After another 10-15 minutes, they had to take off Hardened Ward as well. Only after this could the fight end at all.
When you have defensive abilities that not only outperform offensive abilities, but do so by a significant margin - there's a big problem.
A 20k shield requires between 2-4 (uncrittable) ability casts to get rid of, double the amount of resources and time it took to cast the shield.
This is the reason even bad players can do well with sorcerer at the moment - they can survive against better players just by spamming shield & blinking away.
This is one reason I'm actually happy about +60% magicka cost increasing poisons - they might finally put an end to that bs.
You might say the game is not balanced for 1v1s - but to that I say it has to be in the future if we're to get the Battlegrounds/Arenas they've promised.
Edit: and yes, there are plenty of other classes whose defensive skills vastly outperform offensive skills of other players', good stamina DKs/stamplars/magplars who know how to stack their +healing buffs etc - but that's a lot to go through in one forum post
And in many others StamDK won the whole thing. As a matter of fact I've never seen a Sorc make it to any of the finals. It's always dominated by Stam classes especially the StamDK.
But no on love the PvP Sorc is not underpowered, truly not they are just fine. And have a few different viable builds in PvP. My pet sorc does well, shield stacker does well, winter born. In PvP the Sorc ON LIVE was ok not OP but certainly not underpowered. However on the dark brotherhood pts. They took a huge hit, and are now underpowered. And besides that the 2 overachieving Stam classes got major buffs. And EVERY magicka class got our Ward. So now when DB hits live, then that's it for Sorcs they will be UNDERPOWERED.
Stamina DKs are insanely strong at the moment, there is no refuting that.
At the moment, I'd say the top 3 classes in PvP are: Stamina DKs, Magicka Sorcs & Magicka Templars.
In the finals of last tournament we had a very skilled stamina Templar as well (which I believe has good chances of being the strongest class in game next patch) who lost to the Magicka Sorc after some 30-40 minutes of dueling.
You are now doing like ZOS and looking at 1 small part of the game. Duels are not the end all be all. In fact they are not even a true part of the game, they are player made events. HOWEVER as I said earlier many many of the duels I've seen or competitions have always had Stam classes on the finals, such as the StamDK Stamplar....
Duels are not all PvP is, in fact it's the smallest subset of what PvP is in this game. And in those other parts the NB is the king. And in this part of PvP stamDK is still one of the top.
Also in your top 3 you make it seem as if those 3 tower above the rest. It's more like StamDK is a distant First, and everyone else is fighting over the rest of the ranks.
Don't be Wrobel, Don't just look at 1% of part of the game and say hahahahahahahahaha seeeeere some players are doing good SO OP OP time to NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF.
I am not looking at only one part of the game, but I am not ignoring it either. Battlegrounds & Arenas are coming, this has been confirmed. The game has to be balanced accordingly, otherwise they will flop, big time.
I can't say I'm looking forward to queueing for arenas where each match vs relatively skilled opponents takes 30+ minutes because no one can kill each other or run out of resources. Yeah, that sounds fun...
It actually does sound fun. Que in to instantly crush or get instantly crushed would be dull.
If that sounds fun, you've probably never dueled in this game (or even watched people dueling).
And no one is talking about "instantly crushing" (unless you "instantly" run out of resources).
Dueling is so boring currently that I don't even bother doing it anymore - it's just a waste of potions & time where people spam skills at each other, no one ever running out of resources & no one ever dying because of op heals & shields.
If you want to see what arenas & dueling should look like, check a game like Blade & Soul or WoW and how they handle arenas/dueling - it's just light years ahead of ESO (even the latter, over 10 years old game).0 -
holosoul✭✭✭✭PVP is WoW is complete garbage
all you do is wait for your cooldowns and then 1 shot the enemy0 -
Natas013✭✭✭cpuScientist wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »The thing that's the most upsetting (to me) is that people think sorcs are OP in PVP because some pro player who would have killed them on any class and build killed them. For an average -> above average, but not exceptional 3rd standard deviation of skill level player, sorc is underpowered in PVP. While I'm sure the pros can make sorc look OP (as they would with any class) I honestly don't believe they would get their best results on sorc. If you look for ESO PVP videos on youtube for example, you'll find 80% of the vids are DK/templar, 15% of the vids are some kind of NB, and every few pages you might find 1 sorc video here and there on ps4 where they move like keyboard turners.
Can sorcs quit getting blamed because one of the '3' really good sorcs on your pvp server killed you? As an average player sorc is incredibly fragile.
Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk
Sorcs are absolutely fine in PvP - in some ways they're even overpowered currently (we'll see next patch).
In the latest EU 1v1 tournament, 3 out of the top 5 were sorcerers (a sorcerer even won the whole thing, big surprise...)
In one of the semi-finals there was a sorcerer vs sorcerer fight - after about 10-15 minutes of dueling judges had to pause the fight and both sorcerers took of Harness Magicka. After another 10-15 minutes, they had to take off Hardened Ward as well. Only after this could the fight end at all.
When you have defensive abilities that not only outperform offensive abilities, but do so by a significant margin - there's a big problem.
A 20k shield requires between 2-4 (uncrittable) ability casts to get rid of, double the amount of resources and time it took to cast the shield.
This is the reason even bad players can do well with sorcerer at the moment - they can survive against better players just by spamming shield & blinking away.
This is one reason I'm actually happy about +60% magicka cost increasing poisons - they might finally put an end to that bs.
You might say the game is not balanced for 1v1s - but to that I say it has to be in the future if we're to get the Battlegrounds/Arenas they've promised.
Edit: and yes, there are plenty of other classes whose defensive skills vastly outperform offensive skills of other players', good stamina DKs/stamplars/magplars who know how to stack their +healing buffs etc - but that's a lot to go through in one forum post
And in many others StamDK won the whole thing. As a matter of fact I've never seen a Sorc make it to any of the finals. It's always dominated by Stam classes especially the StamDK.
But no on love the PvP Sorc is not underpowered, truly not they are just fine. And have a few different viable builds in PvP. My pet sorc does well, shield stacker does well, winter born. In PvP the Sorc ON LIVE was ok not OP but certainly not underpowered. However on the dark brotherhood pts. They took a huge hit, and are now underpowered. And besides that the 2 overachieving Stam classes got major buffs. And EVERY magicka class got our Ward. So now when DB hits live, then that's it for Sorcs they will be UNDERPOWERED.
Stamina DKs are insanely strong at the moment, there is no refuting that.
At the moment, I'd say the top 3 classes in PvP are: Stamina DKs, Magicka Sorcs & Magicka Templars.
In the finals of last tournament we had a very skilled stamina Templar as well (which I believe has good chances of being the strongest class in game next patch) who lost to the Magicka Sorc after some 30-40 minutes of dueling.
You are now doing like ZOS and looking at 1 small part of the game. Duels are not the end all be all. In fact they are not even a true part of the game, they are player made events. HOWEVER as I said earlier many many of the duels I've seen or competitions have always had Stam classes on the finals, such as the StamDK Stamplar....
Duels are not all PvP is, in fact it's the smallest subset of what PvP is in this game. And in those other parts the NB is the king. And in this part of PvP stamDK is still one of the top.
Also in your top 3 you make it seem as if those 3 tower above the rest. It's more like StamDK is a distant First, and everyone else is fighting over the rest of the ranks.
Don't be Wrobel, Don't just look at 1% of part of the game and say hahahahahahahahaha seeeeere some players are doing good SO OP OP time to NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF.
I am not looking at only one part of the game, but I am not ignoring it either. Battlegrounds & Arenas are coming, this has been confirmed. The game has to be balanced accordingly, otherwise they will flop, big time.
I can't say I'm looking forward to queueing for arenas where each match vs relatively skilled opponents takes 30+ minutes because no one can kill each other or run out of resources. Yeah, that sounds fun...
It actually does sound fun. Que in to instantly crush or get instantly crushed would be dull.
If that sounds fun, you've probably never dueled in this game (or even watched people dueling).
And no one is talking about "instantly crushing" (unless you "instantly" run out of resources).
Dueling is so boring currently that I don't even bother doing it anymore - it's just a waste of potions & time where people spam skills at each other, no one ever running out of resources & no one ever dying because of op heals & shields.
If you want to see what arenas & dueling should look like, check a game like Blade & Soul or WoW and how they handle arenas/dueling - it's just light years ahead of ESO (even the latter, over 10 years old game).
I've dueled plenty on this game, do best with my stam DK. Never been in a 30 min duel, most are done in a few minutes. Longest duel I've been in was about 12-15 minutes. I lost that one, but it was close. Don't see many duels go over 10 minutes on PS4 NA. As to a way to prevent 30+ minute duels in an arena… couldn't say. Wonder if limiting potion usage in an arena setting would help.
On a side note, I WANT JESUS STORM!!!
JK
RIP Ellania Delome
June 9, 2015-June 14, 2016
A skilled crafter, competent sorcerer, and denizen of the night
Along came the Dark Brotherhood and summarily ended it all0 -
cpuScientist✭✭✭✭✭
✭cpuScientist wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »The thing that's the most upsetting (to me) is that people think sorcs are OP in PVP because some pro player who would have killed them on any class and build killed them. For an average -> above average, but not exceptional 3rd standard deviation of skill level player, sorc is underpowered in PVP. While I'm sure the pros can make sorc look OP (as they would with any class) I honestly don't believe they would get their best results on sorc. If you look for ESO PVP videos on youtube for example, you'll find 80% of the vids are DK/templar, 15% of the vids are some kind of NB, and every few pages you might find 1 sorc video here and there on ps4 where they move like keyboard turners.
Can sorcs quit getting blamed because one of the '3' really good sorcs on your pvp server killed you? As an average player sorc is incredibly fragile.
Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk
Sorcs are absolutely fine in PvP - in some ways they're even overpowered currently (we'll see next patch).
In the latest EU 1v1 tournament, 3 out of the top 5 were sorcerers (a sorcerer even won the whole thing, big surprise...)
In one of the semi-finals there was a sorcerer vs sorcerer fight - after about 10-15 minutes of dueling judges had to pause the fight and both sorcerers took of Harness Magicka. After another 10-15 minutes, they had to take off Hardened Ward as well. Only after this could the fight end at all.
When you have defensive abilities that not only outperform offensive abilities, but do so by a significant margin - there's a big problem.
A 20k shield requires between 2-4 (uncrittable) ability casts to get rid of, double the amount of resources and time it took to cast the shield.
This is the reason even bad players can do well with sorcerer at the moment - they can survive against better players just by spamming shield & blinking away.
This is one reason I'm actually happy about +60% magicka cost increasing poisons - they might finally put an end to that bs.
You might say the game is not balanced for 1v1s - but to that I say it has to be in the future if we're to get the Battlegrounds/Arenas they've promised.
Edit: and yes, there are plenty of other classes whose defensive skills vastly outperform offensive skills of other players', good stamina DKs/stamplars/magplars who know how to stack their +healing buffs etc - but that's a lot to go through in one forum post
And in many others StamDK won the whole thing. As a matter of fact I've never seen a Sorc make it to any of the finals. It's always dominated by Stam classes especially the StamDK.
But no on love the PvP Sorc is not underpowered, truly not they are just fine. And have a few different viable builds in PvP. My pet sorc does well, shield stacker does well, winter born. In PvP the Sorc ON LIVE was ok not OP but certainly not underpowered. However on the dark brotherhood pts. They took a huge hit, and are now underpowered. And besides that the 2 overachieving Stam classes got major buffs. And EVERY magicka class got our Ward. So now when DB hits live, then that's it for Sorcs they will be UNDERPOWERED.
Stamina DKs are insanely strong at the moment, there is no refuting that.
At the moment, I'd say the top 3 classes in PvP are: Stamina DKs, Magicka Sorcs & Magicka Templars.
In the finals of last tournament we had a very skilled stamina Templar as well (which I believe has good chances of being the strongest class in game next patch) who lost to the Magicka Sorc after some 30-40 minutes of dueling.
You are now doing like ZOS and looking at 1 small part of the game. Duels are not the end all be all. In fact they are not even a true part of the game, they are player made events. HOWEVER as I said earlier many many of the duels I've seen or competitions have always had Stam classes on the finals, such as the StamDK Stamplar....
Duels are not all PvP is, in fact it's the smallest subset of what PvP is in this game. And in those other parts the NB is the king. And in this part of PvP stamDK is still one of the top.
Also in your top 3 you make it seem as if those 3 tower above the rest. It's more like StamDK is a distant First, and everyone else is fighting over the rest of the ranks.
Don't be Wrobel, Don't just look at 1% of part of the game and say hahahahahahahahaha seeeeere some players are doing good SO OP OP time to NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF.
I am not looking at only one part of the game, but I am not ignoring it either. Battlegrounds & Arenas are coming, this has been confirmed. The game has to be balanced accordingly, otherwise they will flop, big time.
I can't say I'm looking forward to queueing for arenas where each match vs relatively skilled opponents takes 30+ minutes because no one can kill each other or run out of resources. Yeah, that sounds fun...
It actually does sound fun. Que in to instantly crush or get instantly crushed would be dull.
If that sounds fun, you've probably never dueled in this game (or even watched people dueling).
And no one is talking about "instantly crushing" (unless you "instantly" run out of resources).
Dueling is so boring currently that I don't even bother doing it anymore - it's just a waste of potions & time where people spam skills at each other, no one ever running out of resources & no one ever dying because of op heals & shields.
If you want to see what arenas & dueling should look like, check a game like Blade & Soul or WoW and how they handle arenas/dueling - it's just light years ahead of ESO (even the latter, over 10 years old game).
I've dueled plenty on this game, do best with my stam DK. Never been in a 30 min duel, most are done in a few minutes. Longest duel I've been in was about 12-15 minutes. I lost that one, but it was close. Don't see many duels go over 10 minutes on PS4 NA. As to a way to prevent 30+ minute duels in an arena… couldn't say. Wonder if limiting potion usage in an arena setting would help.
On a side note, I WANT JESUS STORM!!!
JK
Or a timer before a dot gets added lol. If the fight lasts more than 10 minutes a non purgeable dot gets added. There done
Edited by cpuScientist on May 29, 2016 5:50PM1 -
cpuScientist✭✭✭✭✭
✭@cpuScientist
I must admit I didn't read through that whole wall of text - but who said anything about adding cooldowns & such?
The problem at the moment is simple & very obvious: defensive skills are more cost-efficient than offensive ones. This has little to do with cooldowns.
In a resource based game with zero cooldowns, your defensive skills should be the less cost-efficient ones.
If you're constantly forced into playing defensively, then you should be punished more resources wise than the player(s) trying to kill you.
The only other outcome is endless fights.
This is why I said the 6s shield duration is not the solution to ESO's problems - it does nothing to prevent spamming those shields, but actually hurts players who want to play offensively rather than spam shields.
So the solution should be aimed towards preventing the spamming of those shields rather than cutting down the duration - though cost increasing poisons may fix that issue as well (in which case I believe reducing the shield duration as well was a step too far).
Not that many words sit down and read it lol
Also I am saying cooldowns as you were saying that you wanted a streak like system, where it gets more and more expensive or the heals/shields gets less and less effective. Hence a cooldown before that skill returns to normal. That would effectively destroy healers in PvP, And kill diversity as players would have to slot many more heal mitigation skills to use while others are not on cooldown. Then say jabs amd swallow soul, those are both offensive and defensive. Do the heals on those and the many others like them lose effectiveness?
If a character builds as a fortress then that's just part of the game, build to kill fortresses or don't fight that guy if it's not fun. I have dueled plenty of times and been to events and watched streams of events. I usually see some that last a while sure 8-12 but alot of times that's when a fortress meets a fortress lol.
Like I suggested earlier if a match lasts longer that X minutes in those arenas add an environmental dot that increases.
And no against many players ranging from slightly above average to pro, if you decide to shield stack or spam breaths you will die. You are killable. And Offensive skills are better come on now.Edited by cpuScientist on May 29, 2016 4:53PM0 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@NativeJoe
Goodness you are sensitive. I am not at any point discussing you personally. When I say 'investment' I'm not talking about your personal efforts or skill, they are irrelevent. I'm talking about investment in the sense of what a class has to dedicate and sacrifice to get a certain output. Hardened Ward provides way too much output for the required input/investment as compared to the defensive mechanics of every other class and playstyle. This nerf takes an ability that performs as a passive defense system and makes it an active defense that requires skill to use. In line with other classes defenses. End of discussion.
I'm not here to argue the Ward nerf with you. Theres nothing to argue, the discussions been had and the powers that be clearly and decisively agree with my camp of the debate. Lets just be clear about one thing here. When you have only ever played one class, you lack the perspective or depth of understanding to appraise and compare the different classes so conclusively as you tend to do.0 -
Natas013✭✭✭@NativeJoe
Goodness you are sensitive. I am not at any point discussing you personally. When I say 'investment' I'm not talking about your personal efforts or skill, they are irrelevent. I'm talking about investment in the sense of what a class has to dedicate and sacrifice to get a certain output. Hardened Ward provides way too much output for the required input/investment as compared to the defensive mechanics of every other class and playstyle. This nerf takes an ability that performs as a passive defense system and makes it an active defense that requires skill to use. In line with other classes defenses. End of discussion.
I'm not here to argue the Ward nerf with you. Theres nothing to argue, the discussions been had and the powers that be clearly and decisively agree with my camp of the debate. Lets just be clear about one thing here. When you have only ever played one class, you lack the perspective or depth of understanding to appraise and compare the different classes so conclusively as you tend to do.
For the record, I ran a little experiment the other day with my v2 magblade and my v16 mag sorc. Both are vamp, Breton, running the same sets, 5/1/1, and DW/destro. My magblade has slightly more crit, but both are over 50%. Changed my cp on my sorc to mirror my NB, and started going through vet areas until they started to become challenging on my NB. Ended up in a V6 delve, and even though I struggled on some larger pulls I made it through it on my NB w/o cloak or dying. On my sorc, not running HW, I died on the larger pulls with my first few set ups. After a few skill swaps I made it through the delve running clanfear and overload… I hate overload. As for pets… they're garbage on consoles. No control what so ever. Even in light of this revelation I won't run pets unless they become instant cast DoTs or I can direct them. It's bad enough I can't lock onto targets on consoles, but having no control over pets is absurd
RIP Ellania Delome
June 9, 2015-June 14, 2016
A skilled crafter, competent sorcerer, and denizen of the night
Along came the Dark Brotherhood and summarily ended it all3 -
cpuScientist✭✭✭✭✭
✭@NativeJoe
Goodness you are sensitive. I am not at any point discussing you personally. When I say 'investment' I'm not talking about your personal efforts or skill, they are irrelevent. I'm talking about investment in the sense of what a class has to dedicate and sacrifice to get a certain output. Hardened Ward provides way too much output for the required input/investment as compared to the defensive mechanics of every other class and playstyle. This nerf takes an ability that performs as a passive defense system and makes it an active defense that requires skill to use. In line with other classes defenses. End of discussion.
I'm not here to argue the Ward nerf with you. Theres nothing to argue, the discussions been had and the powers that be clearly and decisively agree with my camp of the debate. Lets just be clear about one thing here. When you have only ever played one class, you lack the perspective or depth of understanding to appraise and compare the different classes so conclusively as you tend to do.
Once again, you do not seem to understand the issue. And being on the same side as Wrobel in a balance discussion does not mean your on the right side lol.4 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Natas013 it's mostly so@NativeJoe
Goodness you are sensitive. I am not at any point discussing you personally. When I say 'investment' I'm not talking about your personal efforts or skill, they are irrelevent. I'm talking about investment in the sense of what a class has to dedicate and sacrifice to get a certain output. Hardened Ward provides way too much output for the required input/investment as compared to the defensive mechanics of every other class and playstyle. This nerf takes an ability that performs as a passive defense system and makes it an active defense that requires skill to use. In line with other classes defenses. End of discussion.
I'm not here to argue the Ward nerf with you. Theres nothing to argue, the discussions been had and the powers that be clearly and decisively agree with my camp of the debate. Lets just be clear about one thing here. When you have only ever played one class, you lack the perspective or depth of understanding to appraise and compare the different classes so conclusively as you tend to do.
Cool story. i play NB, DK and Sorc. they all have similar DPS sets, all have high survivability and high damage. my NB and DK are no less survivable then my sorc.
He might be sensitive because he's sick of people like you contribute to making this game worse with each patch. so thanks for that.Edited by Lucky28 on May 29, 2016 6:09PMInvictus3 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@NativeJoe
Goodness you are sensitive. I am not at any point discussing you personally. When I say 'investment' I'm not talking about your personal efforts or skill, they are irrelevent. I'm talking about investment in the sense of what a class has to dedicate and sacrifice to get a certain output. Hardened Ward provides way too much output for the required input/investment as compared to the defensive mechanics of every other class and playstyle. This nerf takes an ability that performs as a passive defense system and makes it an active defense that requires skill to use. In line with other classes defenses. End of discussion.
I'm not here to argue the Ward nerf with you. Theres nothing to argue, the discussions been had and the powers that be clearly and decisively agree with my camp of the debate. Lets just be clear about one thing here. When you have only ever played one class, you lack the perspective or depth of understanding to appraise and compare the different classes so conclusively as you tend to do.
It doesn't require skill to hit a button every few seconds rotationally. Just a macro. Please stop with the skill argument, because it really hurts to hear that drooling on one button makes you good at this game.
I understand that a mean sorc touched you in a naughty place, but six seconds is too short. There is no counter play to being CC'ed five seconds into a shield and wrecked before you can break it. Even with four pieces of impen your survival is questionable, because if a Poison procs, it's all over.
Sorcs can't wear heavy armor, and keep casting spells
We can't access Stam heals.
We don't get a heal like a Templar or DK.
We don't even get a class instant heal, we have to swap to a resto staff.
We can't use shuffle.
We can't dodge roll much.
We have limited CC breaks.
We can't reflect.
We can't cloak in the middle of a fight and haul ass.
We get a shield. I'll admit that 20 seconds was probably too much, but 8-10 seconds would have been fine. Of course making shields critable and non-stackable would have been far better for the class for both PVE and PVP.Edited by Minalan on May 29, 2016 6:23PM1 -
cpuScientist✭✭✭✭✭
✭@NativeJoe
Goodness you are sensitive. I am not at any point discussing you personally. When I say 'investment' I'm not talking about your personal efforts or skill, they are irrelevent. I'm talking about investment in the sense of what a class has to dedicate and sacrifice to get a certain output. Hardened Ward provides way too much output for the required input/investment as compared to the defensive mechanics of every other class and playstyle. This nerf takes an ability that performs as a passive defense system and makes it an active defense that requires skill to use. In line with other classes defenses. End of discussion.
I'm not here to argue the Ward nerf with you. Theres nothing to argue, the discussions been had and the powers that be clearly and decisively agree with my camp of the debate. Lets just be clear about one thing here. When you have only ever played one class, you lack the perspective or depth of understanding to appraise and compare the different classes so conclusively as you tend to do.
It doesn't require skill to hit a button every few seconds rotationally. Just a macro. Please stop with the skill argument, because it really hurts to hear that drooling on one button makes you good at this game.
I understand that a mean sorc touched you in a naughty place, but six seconds is too short. There is no counter play to being CC'ed five seconds into a shield and wrecked before you can break it. Even with four pieces of impen your survival is questionable, because if a Poison procs, it's all over.
Sorcs can't wear heavy armor, and keep casting spells
We can't access Stam heals.
We don't get a heal like a Templar or DK.
We don't even get a class instant heal, we have to swap to a resto staff.
We can't use shuffle.
We can't dodge roll much.
We have limited CC breaks.
We can't reflect.
We can't cloak in the middle of a fight and haul ass.
We get a shield. I'll admit that 20 seconds was probably too much, but 8-10 seconds would have been fine. Of course making shields critable and non-stackable would have been far better for the class for both PVE and PVP.
Yea but that change would require too much work. Why bother when we can just change a variable and completely wreck the last little piece of a near dead class. Oh and we got a heal, and it's a great one. You feel will feel awesome if you get it to fire. This was the funniest most out of touch lone of that little answer we got.
Yea total risk reward with dark deal. They need more info though, cause there isn't another heal on the game that has a cast time and can be easily interrupted, that no one uses. Nope nothing like that exists that could have given some insight as to the use of this skill. HEALONG RITUAL GOES ON UNUSED AND UNINSPIRING. And that skill is leagues better than dark deal. Sigh-SAHAN so many nerfs.0 -
cpuScientist✭✭✭✭✭
✭As I have said many times. I have one of each class at 16 and come Tuesday I will have 6. And have played and tested and researched the classes extensively, to find the class that best suits me.
And while in PvP my sorc was never my highest damage or my tankiest, it was not even the best of both worlds. My sorc was fun and unique and not underpowered, it was a let sorc. So this silly notion that other classes have to give up.to much to be on par with a shield Sorc is silly and goes against all the different mitigation hots heals through damage burst heals reflects cloaks and what not all those classes have. While all we have is Ward. To make ward as effective as possible we have to stack magicka sky high give up certain useful DPS sets and alot of our damage and alot of our available slots just to be able to be tanky. Now if we go in DPS minded then our wards are much smaller.
I think alot of people are watching the old super Sorc videos and not understand that he's not some fantastic Sorc and proof that Sorcs are op. He's just a great LOS user. Shoot I was playing against a Stamplar today that took 3 of us 12 minutes to kill as we were in LOS city. But when he duled me 1v1 he was at 6% so fast then he started to LOS (which is a crap thing to do in a duel, and I will not stay and fight anymore with that) I was on my magplar by the way. So while he seemed unkillabke when the los was taken away he was not much. Same as Those 1vX sorcs you see. Also in alot of those videos look at the level and skill with which they play it's not a bunch of decked out v16s it's just a lot of new or low level poorly geared guys getting killed.
Also in DB we have to make the biggest sacrifice in game to get hardened ward, an investment that is far to high for the little payoff of hardened ward, and that's actually playing as a Sorc.1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭cpuScientist wrote: »As I have said many times. I have one of each class at 16 and come Tuesday I will have 6. And have played and tested and researched the classes extensively, to find the class that best suits me.
And while in PvP my sorc was never my highest damage or my tankiest, it was not even the best of both worlds. My sorc was fun and unique and not underpowered, it was a let sorc. So this silly notion that other classes have to give up.to much to be on par with a shield Sorc is silly and goes against all the different mitigation hots heals through damage burst heals reflects cloaks and what not all those classes have. While all we have is Ward. To make ward as effective as possible we have to stack magicka sky high give up certain useful DPS sets and alot of our damage and alot of our available slots just to be able to be tanky. Now if we go in DPS minded then our wards are much smaller.
I think alot of people are watching the old super Sorc videos and not understand that he's not some fantastic Sorc and proof that Sorcs are op. He's just a great LOS user. Shoot I was playing against a Stamplar today that took 3 of us 12 minutes to kill as we were in LOS city. But when he duled me 1v1 he was at 6% so fast then he started to LOS (which is a crap thing to do in a duel, and I will not stay and fight anymore with that) I was on my magplar by the way. So while he seemed unkillabke when the los was taken away he was not much. Same as Those 1vX sorcs you see. Also in alot of those videos look at the level and skill with which they play it's not a bunch of decked out v16s it's just a lot of new or low level poorly geared guys getting killed.
Also in DB we have to make the biggest sacrifice in game to get hardened ward, an investment that is far to high for the little payoff of hardened ward, and that's actually playing as a Sorc.
It was stated sadly that the ward nerf was a pure pve decision due to vet maelstrom arena data and i believe them. Wards were too good on an average or below average skill level compared to other mechanics.
Sadly nobody at zos bother to take into account that when looking at a high skill level in vmsa the classes were already close (within less than 10% of each other) and that mainly due to ranged/melee limitations.
When looking at a high skill level the old wards were comparable to defense mechanics of tempars and nightblades in pve and they won´t be anymore with the next patch.
As a consequence I´m very much excited to see how they will change surge to offer comparable healing to funnel or puncturing sweeps (as they stated that is their go to point in efficiency). My funnel very easily puts me at above 5k hps when spammed and with surge being crit dependant with 1s gcd those heals would have to be even higher in theory.
I just can´t see the homogenisation they´re aiming for working out for them as the point of balanced is basically a knifes edge with utterly useless on one side and broken OP on the other.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501
