Official Feedback Thread for Sorcerers

DovresMalven

Two things that would make my Stam Sorc feel a lot better:

• An instant cast damage dealing skill scaling of stamina (preferably something that doesn't get reflected)
• A stamina morph of Encase that is comparable to caltrops - but deals slightly less damage and has much less stamina cost

Minalan

Wrobel wrote: »

The answers to your initial set of questions are located here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/267979/dark-brotherhood-sorcerer-q-a#latest

@Wrobel

With all due respect, I appreciate the feedback, but it appears that this was an exercise in futility. Your players have one opinion on the class gameplay mechanics, you have your own and likely will not change it. We aren't likely to meet in the middle, and it doesn't look like anything will change.

I really get the feeling that nobody on your game design end has actually played a sorc in endgame PVP or serious PVE with these changes. It seems that most of you only played against them and were unhappy with where the class was. Try them. See if you think it's fun.

;-) I still think you're getting a kickback from the shrine of Stendarr, with all of the morph respec'ing we'll have to do to find something that works...

Respectfully, thanks for your time. I understand you're under enough pressure to get this release out. You looked and sounded dead tired in the last ZOS broadcast.

Flaminir

@Wrobel I will echo what @Minalan said above... thanks for taking the time to reply... appreciate it must be exhausting especially the last few days before a major release.

That being said it is very clear that you have an entirely different view to the vast majority of your Sorcerer playerbase... A playerbase who actually play sorcs continually in all aspects of the game (Not just vMA.... one of the more limited ways you could have chosen to judge effectiveness/balance BTW!) And that is a very.... precarious position.

Unfortunately the questions were all specifically DB related, which means they were being made & answered only looking at a small part of the picture, EG where you mention you want Sorcs to put more time into their defense.... this is in the context of the lowest magicka DPS in the game... so more time on defense = even lower DPS. It's things like this that your metrics & ideas just don't show.

Personally I will reply properly when I've had a chance to fully digest the answers.... but I have to say, so far its still making my other characters seem a lot more appealing which saddens me.

STEVIL

Thanks to the team at ZOS for the responses.

Know how tough it was to free time up for that during pre-dlc drop weekend.

Hope you get a day for the Holiday anyway.

Smajestic

just to compare

Class who have finished VMoL
24 sorcerer (11 %)
53 Nightblade (26 %)
52 Templar ( 26%)
77 DK (37 %)

So, conclusion, sorcerers are not the best class for this raid, and probably the most useless in the raid.
Sorcerers are not good for heal, for tank and sorcerers are not enough good as DD.

So please change something, like the buff critique for the group (3% is really not good),

cpuScientist

Listen @Wrobel can you just tell us what Sorcs in your mind are supposed to be. Are we meant to be Glass Cannons or Summoners or something entirety different? What is it that you see us being, Answer this please, so we can know what kind of feedback and suggestions to give you.

Because at this moment we are an aimless class and community.

STEVIL

Smajestic wrote: »

just to compare

Class who have finished VMoL
24 sorcerer (11 %)
53 Nightblade (26 %)
52 Templar ( 26%)
77 DK (37 %)

So, conclusion, sorcerers are not the best class for this raid, and probably the most useless in the raid.
Sorcerers are not good for heal, for tank and sorcerers are not enough good as DD.

So please change something, like the buff critique for the group (3% is really not good),

Do you have number for vmsa?

If you assume DK tanky, thr mol stats look like most people wsnted tsnky in their group. Nb and temp as expected.

So looks like vmol design/puzzle solution favors tanks?

Iirc vmsa favored dps?

code65536

STEVIL wrote: »

Smajestic wrote: »

just to compare

Class who have finished VMoL
24 sorcerer (11 %)
53 Nightblade (26 %)
52 Templar ( 26%)
77 DK (37 %)

So, conclusion, sorcerers are not the best class for this raid, and probably the most useless in the raid.
Sorcerers are not good for heal, for tank and sorcerers are not enough good as DD.

So please change something, like the buff critique for the group (3% is really not good),

Do you have number for vmsa?

If you assume DK tanky, thr mol stats look like most people wsnted tsnky in their group. Nb and temp as expected.

So looks like vmol design/puzzle solution favors tanks?

Iirc vmsa favored dps?

LOL. You just don't get it, do you? Have you ever done vMA? Or vMoL? If you had, you wouldn't even think to compare the two.

Sorcs are the worst class for group PvE. They have the worst DPS for group PvE. They provide the least utility in group PvE settings.

The only redeeming quality of the sorc is that they had tools--Surge, Ward, and reliable burst from Overload--that makes them good for solo content and for things like vMA. Two of these three tools are being nerfed hard, while other magicka classes get the new Harness. So sorcs are still the worst group PvE class, and now they lost their edge in the one place where they excelled. And you fail to see why this is a problem?

And yes, vMA favors DPS--everything favors DPS. But more than that, vMA favors survivability. Why are mag DKs considered the hardest vMA class, even though they are better at DPS? It's because their survivability toolkit is lackluster.

Also, vMoL requires two tanks, two healers. So that's 2 slots that are DKs, 2 slots that are Templars. There are still 8 DPS slots remaining. Even if you take out the healers and tanks, sorcs are still underrepresented in vMoL.

Let me tell you about a vMoL run that I was on a couple of weeks ago. We had 2 DK tanks. 2 Templar healers. One token Templar DPS, one token sorc DPS, and I was the token nightblade DPS. The other 5 DPS were all DKs. Most other runs aren't quite as imbalanced, and we see more Templars and nightblades. But I rarely see more than one sorc in a vMoL group. The things that make them nice in vMA--Ward, Surge, and Overload--are useless in vMoL where you have tanks and healers to handle the survivability and where the need for long, sustained DPS reveals the serious flaws in Overload (sorcs are better off using Shooting Star in vMoL).

Why are DKs so heavily favored? Because they have the best toolkit for PvE DPS--stam DKs are on the top of the PvE DPS food chain. Mag DKs are second on the PvE DPS food chain. And in addition to doing more DPS than everyone else, they also provide the best group utility. Engulfing Flames will make enemies take a lot of extra fire damage from everyone. Chains are required on the second vMoL boss, and the more chains you have, the easier it is (admittedly, I'm not a fan of this mechanic because of how disproportionally it favors stacking DPS with DKs). And talons for those untauntable cats (one area where sorcs might be useful, since they have a similar ability--if it weren't for Bound Aegis limiting their options). And Deep Breath for AoE interrupts.

SwaminoNowlino

STEVIL wrote: »

Smajestic wrote: »

just to compare

Class who have finished VMoL
24 sorcerer (11 %)
53 Nightblade (26 %)
52 Templar ( 26%)
77 DK (37 %)

So, conclusion, sorcerers are not the best class for this raid, and probably the most useless in the raid.
Sorcerers are not good for heal, for tank and sorcerers are not enough good as DD.

So please change something, like the buff critique for the group (3% is really not good),

Do you have number for vmsa?

If you assume DK tanky, thr mol stats look like most people wsnted tsnky in their group. Nb and temp as expected.

So looks like vmol design/puzzle solution favors tanks?

Iirc vmsa favored dps?

You aren't wrong, but you have to admit VMA is a really...odd... basis for deciding what changes to make to an overall class. Do sorcs outperform everything in VMA? Yeah. Is it the easiest class to beat VMA? Yeah. Is that representative of the whole range of gameplay? Hell no.

My builds for maelstrom are always totally different from any other gameplay. Different sets, skills, attributes oftentimes. Regardless of my class.

And let's not even mention how making changes based on Magicka sorc performs completely ignores and screws over stamina sorcs.

I understand the trouble these guys have. VMA should be a level playing field across the classes and Stam vs Magicka. Hell it should even be the same for a tank. (Idk how you'd manage this, but if you play a tank you shouldn't be forced to respec every time.) But I disagree with balancing class abilities around this unique arena, the arena should be balanced according to the player class. It's a problem with VMA instead of the class abilities.

When making class changes and evaluations, you have to look holistically at the gameplay. When you introduce new content, you need to make sure it's open to everyone. People should want a Magicka sorcerer in their trials group as much as the Magicka nightblade, same as a Stam sorc. Likewise, solo content such as VMA should be accessible to Magicka DKs in the same way that it's accessible to Magicka sorcs.

I don't think you get there by nerfing classes. I think you get there by being more holistic with your content design and implement dynamic mechanics. VMA shouldn't be all about burst. It should be a different experience if someone tries it with a Magicka sorc or Magicka DK. Equally as difficult, but adapted to the inherent differences.

STEVIL

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Smajestic wrote: »

just to compare

Class who have finished VMoL
24 sorcerer (11 %)
53 Nightblade (26 %)
52 Templar ( 26%)
77 DK (37 %)

So, conclusion, sorcerers are not the best class for this raid, and probably the most useless in the raid.
Sorcerers are not good for heal, for tank and sorcerers are not enough good as DD.

So please change something, like the buff critique for the group (3% is really not good),

Do you have number for vmsa?

If you assume DK tanky, thr mol stats look like most people wsnted tsnky in their group. Nb and temp as expected.

So looks like vmol design/puzzle solution favors tanks?

Iirc vmsa favored dps?

You aren't wrong, but you have to admit VMA is a really...odd... basis for deciding what changes to make to an overall class. Do sorcs outperform everything in VMA? Yeah. Is it the easiest class to beat VMA? Yeah. Is that representative of the whole range of gameplay? Hell no.

My builds for maelstrom are always totally different from any other gameplay. Different sets, skills, attributes oftentimes. Regardless of my class.

And let's not even mention how making changes based on Magicka sorc performs completely ignores and screws over stamina sorcs.

I understand the trouble these guys have. VMA should be a level playing field across the classes and Stam vs Magicka. Hell it should even be the same for a tank. (Idk how you'd manage this, but if you play a tank you shouldn't be forced to respec every time.) But I disagree with balancing class abilities around this unique arena, the arena should be balanced according to the player class. It's a problem with VMA instead of the class abilities.

When making class changes and evaluations, you have to look holistically at the gameplay. When you introduce new content, you need to make sure it's open to everyone. People should want a Magicka sorcerer in their trials group as much as the Magicka nightblade, same as a Stam sorc. Likewise, solo content such as VMA should be accessible to Magicka DKs in the same way that it's accessible to Magicka sorcs.

I don't think you get there by nerfing classes. I think you get there by being more holistic with your content design and implement dynamic mechanics. VMA shouldn't be all about burst. It should be a different experience if someone tries it with a Magicka sorc or Magicka DK. Equally as difficult, but adapted to the inherent differences.

What the heck?

So i respond to a "based on vmol performance we can conclude" type post with questions about vmsa and what it would say etc...

And now we get a "vmsa not representative of whole gameplay" counter - as if VMOL is? Or did you challenge the vmol post too?

Never ceases to amaze.

As for holistically making every trial equal for all... frankly IMO, that is more pie-in-the-sky dreamworld than reality. Its much more likely to succeed if you have different trials have different challenge solutions so yeah, one is more dps focused and another more tank needed and once you get a wide variety done of these (which have much easier design needs) players have DIFFERENT options which span the gameplay.

Really glad to see the pts wrapping up and DB to be released soon.

Though, part of me knows it just means the hostility and toxic that has been cooped up here for s month will just relocate bsvk to general.

Sigh.

code65536

STEVIL wrote: »

And now we get a "vmsa not representative of whole gameplay" counter - as if VMOL is? Or did you challenge the vmol post too?

Wrobel stated on ESO Live that the nerfs to shields was in part due to seeing how sorcs dominated vMA. Okay, fine.

But if he's going to nerf sorcs in the solo domain in which they excel, why doesn't he look at how sorcs underperform outside of solo content and buff or fix the sorc's performance in group play?

This uneven approach to "balance" is why people are upset--and rightfully so.

STEVIL wrote: »

Though, part of me knows it just means the hostility and toxic that has been cooped up here for s month will just relocate bsvk to general.

And what, people aren't justified in being upset at bad design decisions? And, yes, nerfing a magsorc's capabilities in solo while failing to compensate them in group is a bad balancing decision. On Live, the magsorc's solo prowess at least makes up for their deficiency elsewhere when it comes to desirability to play the class. Now when DB launches, they'll have nothing. Good for you for rolling a stamsorc--they did get some much-needed love this update. But we're talking about magsorcs here, not stamsorcs. If ZOS wants less negative feedback, there's one easy solution: either heeding that feedback or providing meaningful back-and-forth dialog. They do neither, and you're somehow shocked by how the player base reacts?

(And yes, the did do that Q&A for sorcs. A few days before DB launches, when there's no more room for change, no time to test, and no back-and-forth. Too little and way, way too late.)

SwaminoNowlino

STEVIL wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Smajestic wrote: »

just to compare

Class who have finished VMoL
24 sorcerer (11 %)
53 Nightblade (26 %)
52 Templar ( 26%)
77 DK (37 %)

So, conclusion, sorcerers are not the best class for this raid, and probably the most useless in the raid.
Sorcerers are not good for heal, for tank and sorcerers are not enough good as DD.

So please change something, like the buff critique for the group (3% is really not good),

Do you have number for vmsa?

If you assume DK tanky, thr mol stats look like most people wsnted tsnky in their group. Nb and temp as expected.

So looks like vmol design/puzzle solution favors tanks?

Iirc vmsa favored dps?

You aren't wrong, but you have to admit VMA is a really...odd... basis for deciding what changes to make to an overall class. Do sorcs outperform everything in VMA? Yeah. Is it the easiest class to beat VMA? Yeah. Is that representative of the whole range of gameplay? Hell no.

My builds for maelstrom are always totally different from any other gameplay. Different sets, skills, attributes oftentimes. Regardless of my class.

And let's not even mention how making changes based on Magicka sorc performs completely ignores and screws over stamina sorcs.

I understand the trouble these guys have. VMA should be a level playing field across the classes and Stam vs Magicka. Hell it should even be the same for a tank. (Idk how you'd manage this, but if you play a tank you shouldn't be forced to respec every time.) But I disagree with balancing class abilities around this unique arena, the arena should be balanced according to the player class. It's a problem with VMA instead of the class abilities.

When making class changes and evaluations, you have to look holistically at the gameplay. When you introduce new content, you need to make sure it's open to everyone. People should want a Magicka sorcerer in their trials group as much as the Magicka nightblade, same as a Stam sorc. Likewise, solo content such as VMA should be accessible to Magicka DKs in the same way that it's accessible to Magicka sorcs.

I don't think you get there by nerfing classes. I think you get there by being more holistic with your content design and implement dynamic mechanics. VMA shouldn't be all about burst. It should be a different experience if someone tries it with a Magicka sorc or Magicka DK. Equally as difficult, but adapted to the inherent differences.

What the heck?

So i respond to a "based on vmol performance we can conclude" type post with questions about vmsa and what it would say etc...

And now we get a "vmsa not representative of whole gameplay" counter - as if VMOL is? Or did you challenge the vmol post too?

Never ceases to amaze.

As for holistically making every trial equal for all... frankly IMO, that is more pie-in-the-sky dreamworld than reality. Its much more likely to succeed if you have different trials have different challenge solutions so yeah, one is more dps focused and another more tank needed and once you get a wide variety done of these (which have much easier design needs) players have DIFFERENT options which span the gameplay.

Really glad to see the pts wrapping up and DB to be released soon.

Though, part of me knows it just means the hostility and toxic that has been cooped up here for s month will just relocate bsvk to general.

Sigh.

Actually Captain Snark, you brought up Malestrom in your unrelenting defense of anything ever done by devs. Wrobel stated that Maelstrom was used as a criteria for the changes. I was pointing out that basing class changes off of VMA may not be the best way to measure things, because it's not necessarily representative of the whole picture of gameplay and class performance. VMOL, as a trial, should be much more reprentative of how the class performs in group I've gameplay. The completion numbers don't mean diddly squat IMO at this point given such a small sample size. But it's indisputable that sorcs don't bring a whole lot to the table in syergizing with a trials group.

I completely agree with your pie in the sky assessment and solution. I may have actually been leading you there to reinforce my position that balance based on a tiny niche of gameplay doesn't make sense.

See what can happen when people read for comprehension and discussion, you know the thing where people may not always agree with you but through communication and tolerance something can be accomplished? I, like you, would be appalled to live in a world people are allowed to have dissenting viewpoints but are allowed to express them because something constructive might come of it. And of course we know that forums like this should be nothing but 110% praise for the devs, because they never get anything wrong ever and anyone who disagrees must be killed by snark, sarcasm, and feigned intellect!

Or maybe, just maybe, a Test Server can be a place for testing and feedback. Perhaps a place where two way dialogue with developers and community members can occur. Maybe people could log onto the server, test things, and say "Hey, this thing seems to be underperforming, is this what you intended or does it maybe need tweaked?" Maybe they could actually test the changes made to their class and point out where things seem a bit wonky, like a change made based on VMA Magicka sorc performance significantly hamstrings their stamina sorcs pvp performance. Instead of just a place to advertise "new content."

But thank you Stevil. I'm glad you have taken upon you the important duty of Vigilante Moderator. May you keep attempting to quash any and all discussion that differs from your point of view with unrelenting condescension and sarcasm. It's a heavy burden, but someone has to do it.

code65536

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

But thank you Stevil. I'm glad you have taken upon you the important duty of Vigilante Moderator. May you keep attempting to quash any and all discussion that differs from your point of view with unrelenting condescension and sarcasm. It's a heavy burden, but someone has to do it.

It seems he never learned the lesson about glass houses and throwing stones.

NBrookus

We could have got a "Soon"
Or even a "No ETA"
Instead we got a "No Plans."

Sounds like sorc changes are not on the table at all other than tweaking Surge.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

STEVIL wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Smajestic wrote: »

just to compare

Class who have finished VMoL
24 sorcerer (11 %)
53 Nightblade (26 %)
52 Templar ( 26%)
77 DK (37 %)

So, conclusion, sorcerers are not the best class for this raid, and probably the most useless in the raid.
Sorcerers are not good for heal, for tank and sorcerers are not enough good as DD.

So please change something, like the buff critique for the group (3% is really not good),

Do you have number for vmsa?

If you assume DK tanky, thr mol stats look like most people wsnted tsnky in their group. Nb and temp as expected.

So looks like vmol design/puzzle solution favors tanks?

Iirc vmsa favored dps?

You aren't wrong, but you have to admit VMA is a really...odd... basis for deciding what changes to make to an overall class. Do sorcs outperform everything in VMA? Yeah. Is it the easiest class to beat VMA? Yeah. Is that representative of the whole range of gameplay? Hell no.

My builds for maelstrom are always totally different from any other gameplay. Different sets, skills, attributes oftentimes. Regardless of my class.

And let's not even mention how making changes based on Magicka sorc performs completely ignores and screws over stamina sorcs.

I understand the trouble these guys have. VMA should be a level playing field across the classes and Stam vs Magicka. Hell it should even be the same for a tank. (Idk how you'd manage this, but if you play a tank you shouldn't be forced to respec every time.) But I disagree with balancing class abilities around this unique arena, the arena should be balanced according to the player class. It's a problem with VMA instead of the class abilities.

When making class changes and evaluations, you have to look holistically at the gameplay. When you introduce new content, you need to make sure it's open to everyone. People should want a Magicka sorcerer in their trials group as much as the Magicka nightblade, same as a Stam sorc. Likewise, solo content such as VMA should be accessible to Magicka DKs in the same way that it's accessible to Magicka sorcs.

I don't think you get there by nerfing classes. I think you get there by being more holistic with your content design and implement dynamic mechanics. VMA shouldn't be all about burst. It should be a different experience if someone tries it with a Magicka sorc or Magicka DK. Equally as difficult, but adapted to the inherent differences.

What the heck?

So i respond to a "based on vmol performance we can conclude" type post with questions about vmsa and what it would say etc...

And now we get a "vmsa not representative of whole gameplay" counter - as if VMOL is? Or did you challenge the vmol post too?

Never ceases to amaze.

As for holistically making every trial equal for all... frankly IMO, that is more pie-in-the-sky dreamworld than reality. Its much more likely to succeed if you have different trials have different challenge solutions so yeah, one is more dps focused and another more tank needed and once you get a wide variety done of these (which have much easier design needs) players have DIFFERENT options which span the gameplay.

Really glad to see the pts wrapping up and DB to be released soon.

Though, part of me knows it just means the hostility and toxic that has been cooped up here for s month will just relocate bsvk to general.

Sigh.

Vmol is just one of all the group content that sorcs are last in pretty much everything. VMA is one single hard solo dungeon. Guess which they should balance the class around. I'll give you a hint, it's not VMA.

Faulgor

I already suggested this in @Wrobel 's Q&A thread, but thought maybe someone over here has some feedback on this idea as well.

Faulgor wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

We understand that Sorcerers would like more freedom with choosing what weapon to use. As a Stamina character, even without a class damaging ability, you have a diverse set of options between Bow, 1h Shield, 2h, and Dual Wield. Magicka technically has 4 options as well – Restoration Staff and 3 flavors of Destruction Staff. However Restoration staff doesn’t support offensive abilities and there is not enough diversity between the three types of Destruction Staff. We don’t have any immediate plans to change this, but we would like to give Sorcerers more compelling decisions when selecting a weapon.

Hey Eric! I don't really have a problem with having to rely on weapon skills a bit more than other classes with my sorcerer. But if this is by design, maybe we could add something that actively promotes this and makes sorcerers unique?

I think giving sorcerers a passive or active ability that improves their enchantments for a certain time could be really interesting. First, with the recent improvements to enchanting, this now becomes a viable option; Second, as enchantments only trigger from weapon attacks, this indirectly improves the sorcerer's weapon usage; And third, it perfectly fits the sorcerer's theme.

From the description of the class from previous Elder Scrolls games:

Though spellcasters by vocation, sorcerers rely most on summonings and enchantments. They are greedy for magic scrolls, rings, armor and weapons, and commanding undead and Daedric servants gratifies their egos.

Adjusting Bound Armor for this might be an interesting solution. When activated for a buff, one morph could improve armor and jewelry enchantments (Bound Aegis?), while the other boosts weapon enchantments (Bound Armaments?).

I'll just throw these new ability descriptions out there, and if you like, you could give some feedback on them.

Bound Aegis

• Protect yourself with the power of Oblivion creating a suit of Daedric mail that grants Minor Resolve, and Minor Ward, increasing your Armor and Spell Resistance by [x] while slotted.
• When activated, increases Armor Enchantments by 100% for 20 seconds. Consumes 1 filled Soul Gem.

If my math is correct, legendary VR16 armor glyphs would grant 3992 (4791 infused) magicka/stamina and 4391 (5269 infused) health. 7 prismatic glyphs would grant 1996 (2395 infused) magicka/stamina and 2195 (2634 infused) health, for a total of 6187 (7242 infused) attribute points. Although this would be an active buff and not a passive bonus, it would be substantially more for most builds than the current +8% magicka. Further, it is useful for all possible builds, as it improves whatever you chose to enchant your armor with.
Potentially, this skill could also improve jewelry enchantments, but that might require additional balancing.
It could also be considered to keep this skill as a toggle that only consumes 1 filled Soul Gem when first activated, as constantly varying amounts of a max attribute might become annoying.

Bound Armaments

• Protect yourself with the power of Oblivion creating a suit of Daedric mail that grants Minor Resolve, and Minor Ward, increasing your Armor and Spell Resistance by [x] while slotted.
• When activated, removes all Weapon Enchantment cooldowns for 20 seconds. Consumes 1 filled Soul Gem.

This would substantially improve DPS for both magicka and stamina builds without affecting burst damage, like an increase to enchantment potency would. Overload also remains unaffected. It further remove the necessity of a spamable skill, or DoT chains, and instead gives sorcerers something unique to improve class identity.

holosoul

VMA leaderboards are by class anyway aren't they?
It doesn't even affect non sorcs how sorcs are performing VMA
(Not even sarcastic though, I don't PVE basically 'at all')
The only thing I know about VMA is the staff is the worst of all maelstrom weapons for PVP (for sorc)

Either way, it seems like an extremely unintelligent way to balance the class.

holosoul

The thing that's the most upsetting (to me) is that people think sorcs are OP in PVP because some pro player who would have killed them on any class and build killed them. For an average -> above average, but not exceptional 3rd standard deviation of skill level player, sorc is underpowered in PVP. While I'm sure the pros can make sorc look OP (as they would with any class) I honestly don't believe they would get their best results on sorc. If you look for ESO PVP videos on youtube for example, you'll find 80% of the vids are DK/templar, 15% of the vids are some kind of NB, and every few pages you might find 1 sorc video here and there on ps4 where they move like keyboard turners.

Can sorcs quit getting blamed because one of the '3' really good sorcs on your pvp server killed you? As an average player sorc is incredibly fragile.

Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk

DDuke

holosoul wrote: »

The thing that's the most upsetting (to me) is that people think sorcs are OP in PVP because some pro player who would have killed them on any class and build killed them. For an average -> above average, but not exceptional 3rd standard deviation of skill level player, sorc is underpowered in PVP. While I'm sure the pros can make sorc look OP (as they would with any class) I honestly don't believe they would get their best results on sorc. If you look for ESO PVP videos on youtube for example, you'll find 80% of the vids are DK/templar, 15% of the vids are some kind of NB, and every few pages you might find 1 sorc video here and there on ps4 where they move like keyboard turners.

Can sorcs quit getting blamed because one of the '3' really good sorcs on your pvp server killed you? As an average player sorc is incredibly fragile.

Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk

Sorcs are absolutely fine in PvP - in some ways they're even overpowered currently (we'll see next patch).

In the latest EU 1v1 tournament, 3 out of the top 5 were sorcerers (a sorcerer even won the whole thing, big surprise...)

In one of the semi-finals there was a sorcerer vs sorcerer fight - after about 10-15 minutes of dueling judges had to pause the fight and both sorcerers took of Harness Magicka. After another 10-15 minutes, they had to take off Hardened Ward as well. Only after this could the fight end at all.

When you have defensive abilities that not only outperform offensive abilities, but do so by a significant margin - there's a big problem.
A 20k shield requires between 2-4 (uncrittable) ability casts to get rid of, double the amount of resources and time it took to cast the shield.

This is the reason even bad players can do well with sorcerer at the moment - they can survive against better players just by spamming shield & blinking away.


This is one reason I'm actually happy about +60% magicka cost increasing poisons - they might finally put an end to that bs.

You might say the game is not balanced for 1v1s - but to that I say it has to be in the future if we're to get the Battlegrounds/Arenas they've promised.


Edit: and yes, there are plenty of other classes whose defensive skills vastly outperform offensive skills of other players', good stamina DKs/stamplars/magplars who know how to stack their +healing buffs etc - but that's a lot to go through in one forum post

holosoul

Well @DDuke, shields are boring and I wouldn't mind not even having them as a mechanic, personally I'd be fine with raw frightening levels of damage without any survival mechanics or class defensive abilities. In a group of 8 - 12+ I don't ever run 3 shields, in fact I only use 1 shield in the first place. I understand that the 1vXer builds stack all 3 shields but I don't have the skill slots to do that without sacrificing the good of the group.

holosoul

Normally I survive by being intelligently positioned, and DB won't really change much except now I have to cast my 1 shield way more often, to a degree which is frankly annoying.

NBrookus

holosoul wrote: »

Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk

Honestly sorcs were fine in PvP. Certainly not unkillable, especially not by a decent stam player. Now... I dunno. We'll see. PvE sorcs are the ones really getting the shaft. I agree, a lot of QQ comes from people dying to a handful of players.

NativeJoe

Incase you missed it and needed a summery*

Player base:
Sorcerers used to have 1 other magical option to get away from the crushing shock spam-able and pick up some more spell power and spam trapping webs instead. Sorcs Don't have alot of variety in viable builds because of the weapons nailed to our hands.

Wobel:
We want every class to feel different; they all have unique pros and cons.
Trapping Webs was never meant to be a spammable ability such as Lava Whip, Force Shock, Strife, etc. It costs more and is lower damage. so we redesigned it to feel less spammy, and made it stamina based.
On the whole, converting an ability is exciting because new builds are created, however it can be frustrating as old builds are destroyed.

We understand that Sorcerers would like more freedom with choosing what weapon to use.As a Stamina character, even without a class damaging ability, you have a diverse set of options between Bow, 1h Shield, 2h, and Dual Wield. Magicka technically has 4 options as well – Restoration Staff and 3 flavors of Destruction Staff. However Restoration staff doesn’t support offensive abilities and there is not enough diversity between the three types of Destruction Staff.

We don’t have any immediate plans to change this.

Player base:
You killed sorc burst heals, destroyed our only source of damage mitigation, handed out that damage mitigation to others, and gave us nothing in return...except your continued focus on the most under used useless skill in our book of tricks. Dark exchange. Pets Arn't even viable without the shields we gave them... so we've received an overall smash to the face. what gives?

Wobel:
We wanted to make the Surge ability a more universal tool in the Sorcerer kit. It wasn’t intended as a nerf, except in the case of Overload because we felt that Synergy was over-performing. It’s been a longstanding issue that Surge doesn’t play well with DoT builds, thus limiting the number of options for Sorcerers. Abilities such as Crushing Shock deal damage in 3 separate attacks and Flurry never procced the heal. Surge is now more effective for tank characters since it no longer scales off of damage done. These changes make surge more desirable for a wider number of builds and reduced its power when combined with Overload.

Surge now feels like a sustain ability instead of a spike heal ability. This design makes more sense for the ability because the procs are random. Big burst heals are something you want to be able to use with reliability when you need them. Getting a big Surge heal when you are at full health and getting no heal when you are low on health can lead to frustrating situations.
Surge has a stronger synergy with damage shields now. The shields help stop big bursts of damage and Surge helps to top off your health bar and keep you sustained through long battles.

As for shields...
Offering players interesting choices is one of our design goals. Some people will prefer Hardened Ward, some will use Empowered Ward, and some will use Hardened Ward with Dampen Magic. None of these decisions are right or wrong or better. They each suit different playstyles and different people have fun in different ways.

We based this decision on extensive playtesting, player feedback, and data from the Maelstrom Arena leaderboards. It was our intent to make Sorcerers increase investment in maintaining their current levels of survivability.

We’re adding a damage limit to pets so they can’t be 1-shot. This should give you more time to shield them reactively instead of proactively.

As for dark Exchange..
We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome since it’s difficult to do, it’s something we’re pursuing in an effort to make the gameplay more varied and fun.

So Where do sorcs stand now?
In pvp: we're going to have a strong shield stack... but remember that every other class got buffed, all magicka builds are now going to be using shields against us, and while maintaining our own shields it may be difficult to push out any sort of dps considering we lack dots, and they don't....to an extreme. For burst... I don't think thats going to do it verses anything magickal because of shields again.
Verses stamina... if we are not spamming our expensive shields... then we're dead pretty much first charge/stun combo. Stamina builds got major boosts to their dps this patch, and I imagine we're going to be put on the defensive because they're going to be hitting for FAR more then our simple ward can protect us for...so odds are we'll have to slot 2 shields on the same bar and Hope they get tired so we can actually do some dps back.
In zergs... I wouldn't put it out of question that we are banned from being part of the group because a sorc without his shield up is the weakest target and can serve as the perfect target for VD. 100 points into bastion, light armor, and probably not wearing impenetrable means we're just a bomb waiting to happen for our team.

In PVE: We're going to need to lose the shields because they don't offer enough utility and we take massive dps losses maintaining them. not to mention the strain on our resources since everything costs more next patch.

Solo, we're taking a major nerf. Sure we'll be fine farming nodes, but soloing bosses, VMA, etc... these things just got ALOT harder. GL~ The best sorcs in the world are struggling to complete it with any vitality left.

4-man: We're the weakest class, bring no utility, and effectively we're going to drain the healers resources. Can we do it? yes. But we're no longer desirable for core groups. Before we could maintain shields, and blast away , and where often the last ones left standing~sometimes even becoming the hero of the dungeon because we had to finish the boss off. now tho... slotting a shield Hinders your dps to much and takes up a slot that you could be using for dps (since we're the lowest dps anyway we don't have slots to waste on survivability)

Trials: With no unique buffs, Lowest sustained dps, and needing to rely on everyone else to stay alive~we're a resource drain. All in All there is no reason to take a sorc into a trial.

For the future it seems Zos has gotten what they want and... "We don’t have any immediate plans to change this. "

cpuScientist

DDuke wrote: »

holosoul wrote: »

The thing that's the most upsetting (to me) is that people think sorcs are OP in PVP because some pro player who would have killed them on any class and build killed them. For an average -> above average, but not exceptional 3rd standard deviation of skill level player, sorc is underpowered in PVP. While I'm sure the pros can make sorc look OP (as they would with any class) I honestly don't believe they would get their best results on sorc. If you look for ESO PVP videos on youtube for example, you'll find 80% of the vids are DK/templar, 15% of the vids are some kind of NB, and every few pages you might find 1 sorc video here and there on ps4 where they move like keyboard turners.

Can sorcs quit getting blamed because one of the '3' really good sorcs on your pvp server killed you? As an average player sorc is incredibly fragile.

Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk

Sorcs are absolutely fine in PvP - in some ways they're even overpowered currently (we'll see next patch).

In the latest EU 1v1 tournament, 3 out of the top 5 were sorcerers (a sorcerer even won the whole thing, big surprise...)

In one of the semi-finals there was a sorcerer vs sorcerer fight - after about 10-15 minutes of dueling judges had to pause the fight and both sorcerers took of Harness Magicka. After another 10-15 minutes, they had to take off Hardened Ward as well. Only after this could the fight end at all.

When you have defensive abilities that not only outperform offensive abilities, but do so by a significant margin - there's a big problem.
A 20k shield requires between 2-4 (uncrittable) ability casts to get rid of, double the amount of resources and time it took to cast the shield.

This is the reason even bad players can do well with sorcerer at the moment - they can survive against better players just by spamming shield & blinking away.


This is one reason I'm actually happy about +60% magicka cost increasing poisons - they might finally put an end to that bs.

You might say the game is not balanced for 1v1s - but to that I say it has to be in the future if we're to get the Battlegrounds/Arenas they've promised.


Edit: and yes, there are plenty of other classes whose defensive skills vastly outperform offensive skills of other players', good stamina DKs/stamplars/magplars who know how to stack their +healing buffs etc - but that's a lot to go through in one forum post

And in many others StamDK won the whole thing. As a matter of fact I've never seen a Sorc make it to any of the finals. It's always dominated by Stam classes especially the StamDK.

But no on love the PvP Sorc is not underpowered, truly not they are just fine. And have a few different viable builds in PvP. My pet sorc does well, shield stacker does well, winter born. In PvP the Sorc ON LIVE was ok not OP but certainly not underpowered. However on the dark brotherhood pts. They took a huge hit, and are now underpowered. And besides that the 2 overachieving Stam classes got major buffs. And EVERY magicka class got our Ward. So now when DB hits live, then that's it for Sorcs they will be UNDERPOWERED.

DDuke

cpuScientist wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

holosoul wrote: »

The thing that's the most upsetting (to me) is that people think sorcs are OP in PVP because some pro player who would have killed them on any class and build killed them. For an average -> above average, but not exceptional 3rd standard deviation of skill level player, sorc is underpowered in PVP. While I'm sure the pros can make sorc look OP (as they would with any class) I honestly don't believe they would get their best results on sorc. If you look for ESO PVP videos on youtube for example, you'll find 80% of the vids are DK/templar, 15% of the vids are some kind of NB, and every few pages you might find 1 sorc video here and there on ps4 where they move like keyboard turners.

Can sorcs quit getting blamed because one of the '3' really good sorcs on your pvp server killed you? As an average player sorc is incredibly fragile.

Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk

Sorcs are absolutely fine in PvP - in some ways they're even overpowered currently (we'll see next patch).

In the latest EU 1v1 tournament, 3 out of the top 5 were sorcerers (a sorcerer even won the whole thing, big surprise...)

In one of the semi-finals there was a sorcerer vs sorcerer fight - after about 10-15 minutes of dueling judges had to pause the fight and both sorcerers took of Harness Magicka. After another 10-15 minutes, they had to take off Hardened Ward as well. Only after this could the fight end at all.

When you have defensive abilities that not only outperform offensive abilities, but do so by a significant margin - there's a big problem.
A 20k shield requires between 2-4 (uncrittable) ability casts to get rid of, double the amount of resources and time it took to cast the shield.

This is the reason even bad players can do well with sorcerer at the moment - they can survive against better players just by spamming shield & blinking away.


This is one reason I'm actually happy about +60% magicka cost increasing poisons - they might finally put an end to that bs.

You might say the game is not balanced for 1v1s - but to that I say it has to be in the future if we're to get the Battlegrounds/Arenas they've promised.


Edit: and yes, there are plenty of other classes whose defensive skills vastly outperform offensive skills of other players', good stamina DKs/stamplars/magplars who know how to stack their +healing buffs etc - but that's a lot to go through in one forum post

And in many others StamDK won the whole thing. As a matter of fact I've never seen a Sorc make it to any of the finals. It's always dominated by Stam classes especially the StamDK.

But no on love the PvP Sorc is not underpowered, truly not they are just fine. And have a few different viable builds in PvP. My pet sorc does well, shield stacker does well, winter born. In PvP the Sorc ON LIVE was ok not OP but certainly not underpowered. However on the dark brotherhood pts. They took a huge hit, and are now underpowered. And besides that the 2 overachieving Stam classes got major buffs. And EVERY magicka class got our Ward. So now when DB hits live, then that's it for Sorcs they will be UNDERPOWERED.

Stamina DKs are insanely strong at the moment, there is no refuting that.

At the moment, I'd say the top 3 classes in PvP are: Stamina DKs, Magicka Sorcs & Magicka Templars.

In the finals of last tournament we had a very skilled stamina Templar as well (which I believe has good chances of being the strongest class in game next patch) who lost to the Magicka Sorc after some 30-40 minutes of dueling.

And yes I agree for the most part that Sorc on Live is fine when it comes to PvP. It requires a good amount of skill to combo the Sorc burst, and without that burst the bad sorcs don't kill any good players.

What is not fine however is the defensive aspect of Sorcs.

Currently, if you want to spam shields, you can do so without ever running out of magicka - and as long as you spam those shields you will not die in 1v1 - not even bad sorcs. The only thing that can counter you is Shield Breaker set which some people use, but there are sorc builds that counter Shield Breaker as well.

The same problem exists for Stamina DKs & Magicka/Stamina Templars who can just stack ridiculous amounts of +healing received & +healing done buffs and then just outheal everything you do.


In my opinion, they should've gone a different route regarding Sorcerer shields - I'm not sure any nerf to duration was even necessary with the +60% magicka cost poisons existing, but we'll see...

If it turns out sorcs can still spam that shield without any regard to their magicka, then they probably should've made the duration start from 20 seconds & then get halved for every shield cast within 4 seconds (up until it lasts only 1s or less) - that way you'd reward people who can keep pressure on the Sorcerer & it'd punish Sorcerers who only spam shields and nothing else.

They should also significantly increase the cost of all self heals so they can't be spammed to fix other classes, if +60% costs poisons doesn't do the job.

SwaminoNowlino

@DDuke not a bad idea, but the idea of the server calculating that for all the bad sorcs makes me want to cry haha

TARAFRAKA

DDuke wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

holosoul wrote: »

The thing that's the most upsetting (to me) is that people think sorcs are OP in PVP because some pro player who would have killed them on any class and build killed them. For an average -> above average, but not exceptional 3rd standard deviation of skill level player, sorc is underpowered in PVP. While I'm sure the pros can make sorc look OP (as they would with any class) I honestly don't believe they would get their best results on sorc. If you look for ESO PVP videos on youtube for example, you'll find 80% of the vids are DK/templar, 15% of the vids are some kind of NB, and every few pages you might find 1 sorc video here and there on ps4 where they move like keyboard turners.

Can sorcs quit getting blamed because one of the '3' really good sorcs on your pvp server killed you? As an average player sorc is incredibly fragile.

Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk

Sorcs are absolutely fine in PvP - in some ways they're even overpowered currently (we'll see next patch).

In the latest EU 1v1 tournament, 3 out of the top 5 were sorcerers (a sorcerer even won the whole thing, big surprise...)

In one of the semi-finals there was a sorcerer vs sorcerer fight - after about 10-15 minutes of dueling judges had to pause the fight and both sorcerers took of Harness Magicka. After another 10-15 minutes, they had to take off Hardened Ward as well. Only after this could the fight end at all.

When you have defensive abilities that not only outperform offensive abilities, but do so by a significant margin - there's a big problem.
A 20k shield requires between 2-4 (uncrittable) ability casts to get rid of, double the amount of resources and time it took to cast the shield.

This is the reason even bad players can do well with sorcerer at the moment - they can survive against better players just by spamming shield & blinking away.


This is one reason I'm actually happy about +60% magicka cost increasing poisons - they might finally put an end to that bs.

You might say the game is not balanced for 1v1s - but to that I say it has to be in the future if we're to get the Battlegrounds/Arenas they've promised.


Edit: and yes, there are plenty of other classes whose defensive skills vastly outperform offensive skills of other players', good stamina DKs/stamplars/magplars who know how to stack their +healing buffs etc - but that's a lot to go through in one forum post

And in many others StamDK won the whole thing. As a matter of fact I've never seen a Sorc make it to any of the finals. It's always dominated by Stam classes especially the StamDK.

But no on love the PvP Sorc is not underpowered, truly not they are just fine. And have a few different viable builds in PvP. My pet sorc does well, shield stacker does well, winter born. In PvP the Sorc ON LIVE was ok not OP but certainly not underpowered. However on the dark brotherhood pts. They took a huge hit, and are now underpowered. And besides that the 2 overachieving Stam classes got major buffs. And EVERY magicka class got our Ward. So now when DB hits live, then that's it for Sorcs they will be UNDERPOWERED.

Stamina DKs are insanely strong at the moment, there is no refuting that.

At the moment, I'd say the top 3 classes in PvP are: Stamina DKs, Magicka Sorcs & Magicka Templars.

In the finals of last tournament we had a very skilled stamina Templar as well (which I believe has good chances of being the strongest class in game next patch) who lost to the Magicka Sorc after some 30-40 minutes of dueling.

And yes I agree for the most part that Sorc on Live is fine when it comes to PvP. It requires a good amount of skill to combo the Sorc burst, and without that burst the bad sorcs don't kill any good players.

What is not fine however is the defensive aspect of Sorcs.

Currently, if you want to spam shields, you can do so without ever running out of magicka - and as long as you spam those shields you will not die in 1v1 - not even bad sorcs. The only thing that can counter you is Shield Breaker set which some people use, but there are sorc builds that counter Shield Breaker as well.

The same problem exists for Stamina DKs & Magicka/Stamina Templars who can just stack ridiculous amounts of +healing received & +healing done buffs and then just outheal everything you do.


In my opinion, they should've gone a different route regarding Sorcerer shields - I'm not sure any nerf to duration was even necessary with the +60% magicka cost poisons existing, but we'll see...

If it turns out sorcs can still spam that shield without any regard to their magicka, then they probably should've made the duration start from 20 seconds & then get halved for every shield cast within 4 seconds (up until it lasts only 1s or less) - that way you'd reward people who can keep pressure on the Sorcerer & it'd punish Sorcerers who only spam shields and nothing else.

They should also significantly increase the cost of all self heals so they can't be spammed to fix other classes, if +60% costs poisons doesn't do the job.

WHY OH WHY WOULD ANYONE SUGGEST WE BE PUNISHED FOR USING OUR DEFENSIVE ABILITY??
I recast ward constantly in vma. Constantly. So you suggest that 45 seconds into the round I'll be casting a shield that lasts me a millisecond? Combined with the surge nerf we would have ZERO way to survive whatsoever since surge is a flat heal now and it's affected by battle spirit as well.
Balancing the entire game for PVP does NOT work! And I PVP!!
We are the ONLY class that is punished for using a skill back to back. Tell you what, I'll be OK with shield duration cut in half for recasting in 4 seconds when we see Templar BOL halved for recasting as well until they heal for 5hps if they spam it, as well as nightnightblades spamming cloak.

DDuke

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

holosoul wrote: »

The thing that's the most upsetting (to me) is that people think sorcs are OP in PVP because some pro player who would have killed them on any class and build killed them. For an average -> above average, but not exceptional 3rd standard deviation of skill level player, sorc is underpowered in PVP. While I'm sure the pros can make sorc look OP (as they would with any class) I honestly don't believe they would get their best results on sorc. If you look for ESO PVP videos on youtube for example, you'll find 80% of the vids are DK/templar, 15% of the vids are some kind of NB, and every few pages you might find 1 sorc video here and there on ps4 where they move like keyboard turners.

Can sorcs quit getting blamed because one of the '3' really good sorcs on your pvp server killed you? As an average player sorc is incredibly fragile.

Edit: Btw on haderus the only sorcs that would make me think "damn sorc is OP" on some other class are "The Arcane" and "Qaevir" (sorry sp); every other sorc is way less threatening than even an average/bad player attacking me with stam dk

Sorcs are absolutely fine in PvP - in some ways they're even overpowered currently (we'll see next patch).

In the latest EU 1v1 tournament, 3 out of the top 5 were sorcerers (a sorcerer even won the whole thing, big surprise...)

In one of the semi-finals there was a sorcerer vs sorcerer fight - after about 10-15 minutes of dueling judges had to pause the fight and both sorcerers took of Harness Magicka. After another 10-15 minutes, they had to take off Hardened Ward as well. Only after this could the fight end at all.

When you have defensive abilities that not only outperform offensive abilities, but do so by a significant margin - there's a big problem.
A 20k shield requires between 2-4 (uncrittable) ability casts to get rid of, double the amount of resources and time it took to cast the shield.

This is the reason even bad players can do well with sorcerer at the moment - they can survive against better players just by spamming shield & blinking away.


This is one reason I'm actually happy about +60% magicka cost increasing poisons - they might finally put an end to that bs.

You might say the game is not balanced for 1v1s - but to that I say it has to be in the future if we're to get the Battlegrounds/Arenas they've promised.


Edit: and yes, there are plenty of other classes whose defensive skills vastly outperform offensive skills of other players', good stamina DKs/stamplars/magplars who know how to stack their +healing buffs etc - but that's a lot to go through in one forum post

And in many others StamDK won the whole thing. As a matter of fact I've never seen a Sorc make it to any of the finals. It's always dominated by Stam classes especially the StamDK.

But no on love the PvP Sorc is not underpowered, truly not they are just fine. And have a few different viable builds in PvP. My pet sorc does well, shield stacker does well, winter born. In PvP the Sorc ON LIVE was ok not OP but certainly not underpowered. However on the dark brotherhood pts. They took a huge hit, and are now underpowered. And besides that the 2 overachieving Stam classes got major buffs. And EVERY magicka class got our Ward. So now when DB hits live, then that's it for Sorcs they will be UNDERPOWERED.

Stamina DKs are insanely strong at the moment, there is no refuting that.

At the moment, I'd say the top 3 classes in PvP are: Stamina DKs, Magicka Sorcs & Magicka Templars.

In the finals of last tournament we had a very skilled stamina Templar as well (which I believe has good chances of being the strongest class in game next patch) who lost to the Magicka Sorc after some 30-40 minutes of dueling.

And yes I agree for the most part that Sorc on Live is fine when it comes to PvP. It requires a good amount of skill to combo the Sorc burst, and without that burst the bad sorcs don't kill any good players.

What is not fine however is the defensive aspect of Sorcs.

Currently, if you want to spam shields, you can do so without ever running out of magicka - and as long as you spam those shields you will not die in 1v1 - not even bad sorcs. The only thing that can counter you is Shield Breaker set which some people use, but there are sorc builds that counter Shield Breaker as well.

The same problem exists for Stamina DKs & Magicka/Stamina Templars who can just stack ridiculous amounts of +healing received & +healing done buffs and then just outheal everything you do.


In my opinion, they should've gone a different route regarding Sorcerer shields - I'm not sure any nerf to duration was even necessary with the +60% magicka cost poisons existing, but we'll see...

If it turns out sorcs can still spam that shield without any regard to their magicka, then they probably should've made the duration start from 20 seconds & then get halved for every shield cast within 4 seconds (up until it lasts only 1s or less) - that way you'd reward people who can keep pressure on the Sorcerer & it'd punish Sorcerers who only spam shields and nothing else.

They should also significantly increase the cost of all self heals so they can't be spammed to fix other classes, if +60% costs poisons doesn't do the job.

WHY OH WHY WOULD ANYONE SUGGEST WE BE PUNISHED FOR USING OUR DEFENSIVE ABILITY??
I recast ward constantly in vma. Constantly. So you suggest that 45 seconds into the round I'll be casting a shield that lasts me a millisecond? Combined with the surge nerf we would have ZERO way to survive whatsoever since surge is a flat heal now and it's affected by battle spirit as well.
Balancing the entire game for PVP does NOT work! And I PVP!!
We are the ONLY class that is punished for using a skill back to back. Tell you what, I'll be OK with shield duration cut in half for recasting in 4 seconds when we see Templar BOL halved for recasting as well until they heal for 5hps if they spam it, as well as nightnightblades spamming cloak.

There's a wee difference between using your defensive ability and downright spamming it for immunity mode.

In vMSA, magicka NBs, DKs & Templars have been doing just fine without 20k on-demand shield, and before you say "b-but they have heals!" take a look at your Twilight Matriarch. Alternatively, get more health on your sorcerer & use the Clannfear pet for heals (it's a very strong self heal).


What I proposed would simply allow for more offensive plays than the 6 second shield ZOS decided to go with, but would punish people who spam that shield for immunity mode & do nothing that demands actual player skill.

With 4 second limit (similar to dodge roll) you'd be required to streak, CC, apply pressure, roll dodge etc - use other means of survival instead of simply spamming the shield button and would make the gameplay more skill based.

And yes, Templar (and all other) heals should cost more as I mentioned in my previous post. How you can just spam them endlessly & never run out of health/magicka is ridiculous.

But then again, maybe +60% cost increase poisons will fix both of these problems.


Oh, and Cloak has more counters than there are birds in the sky - it does not make anyone unkillable. I don't know why you'd bring that up.

DDuke

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

WHY OH WHY WOULD ANYONE SUGGEST WE BE PUNISHED FOR USING OUR DEFENSIVE ABILITY??

This is actually a good thing to bring up though, so I feel like making another post about it.

How balance is usually achieved is that you get rewarded for landing combos & putting pressure on the opponent. Defensive skills are the "oh ***" buttons that save you when your opponent is doing better, or abilities used to counter specific instances of burst damage that you have anticipated in advance.

In other games, you'd force your opponents to use their defensive cooldowns & such - in a non-cooldown game like ESO you should force your opponent to use more resources by making them go on the defensive.


The problem currently is that defensive skills aren't the "oh ***" buttons - they're just buttons you spam and you are not punished for doing that.

Your opponent is not rewarded for landing combos & keeping up pressure, he is in fact the one getting punished because offensive actions are not as cost-effective as defensive ones.


What happens is that an endless quagmire of two opponents spamming defensive skills ensues, which lasts until one side gets bored (or instagibbed).

Needless to say, this is not enjoyable gameplay and it's something that needs to be fixed before Arenas/Battlegrounds are implemented (where gameplay is much more focused on 1v1s or 2v2s etc) - else I'm afraid those are going to be poorly received by the general populace.

jgrinsteadb14_ESO

6 seconds for our class shield (hardened ward) is unacceptable. I will not play without either reverting back on this skill, or giving us some other defense/heal to offset.

1) it is EXTREMELY tedious.
2) It is too big of a nerf.