Official Feedback Thread for Sorcerers

Ajax_22 · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Yolokin_Swagonborn Whilst I agree many don't want to run pets, the impact of having the health buff on Aegis would be high and make more sense. However the simplest solution would be for Bound Armour to trigger the passive Daedric Protection along with Pets.

Ehm... Bound Armor does trigger the Daedric Protection passive.

For those complaining about magicka sorc DPS:

https://youtu.be/Bfi1e_2xif4

The potential for high DPS is definitely already there - next patch you can do the same with overlol builds by slotting Elegance set from vSO (+20% dmg on overload light/heavy attacks)

Magic Sorcs have high burst damage. They do not have high DPS. The two are very different. Additionally, using Overload in Vet MoL is a DPS loss.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · May 2016

nvm posting in the DK thread now

DDuke · May 2016

Ajax_22 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Yolokin_Swagonborn Whilst I agree many don't want to run pets, the impact of having the health buff on Aegis would be high and make more sense. However the simplest solution would be for Bound Armour to trigger the passive Daedric Protection along with Pets.

Ehm... Bound Armor does trigger the Daedric Protection passive.

For those complaining about magicka sorc DPS:

https://youtu.be/Bfi1e_2xif4

The potential for high DPS is definitely already there - next patch you can do the same with overlol builds by slotting Elegance set from vSO (+20% dmg on overload light/heavy attacks)

Magic Sorcs have hight burst damage. They do not have high DPS. The two are very different. Additionally, using Overload in Vet MoL is a DPS loss.

I guess you didn't watch the video in that quote then (39.3k DPS on vMoL 2nd bosses).

If that constitutes as "low DPS" in your books, I'd love to see examples of how much better the other classes can do at the same encounter.

Ajax_22 · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Yolokin_Swagonborn Whilst I agree many don't want to run pets, the impact of having the health buff on Aegis would be high and make more sense. However the simplest solution would be for Bound Armour to trigger the passive Daedric Protection along with Pets.

Ehm... Bound Armor does trigger the Daedric Protection passive.

For those complaining about magicka sorc DPS:

https://youtu.be/Bfi1e_2xif4

The potential for high DPS is definitely already there - next patch you can do the same with overlol builds by slotting Elegance set from vSO (+20% dmg on overload light/heavy attacks)

Magic Sorcs have hight burst damage. They do not have high DPS. The two are very different. Additionally, using Overload in Vet MoL is a DPS loss.

I guess you didn't watch the video in that quote then (39.3k DPS on vMoL 2nd bosses).

I did. The video is missing a lot of context. What was the DPS of the rest of the group? Just because one Magic Sorc can pull out just under 40K in one video of one boss fight doesn't change the fact that the average Sorc is 5-10K DPS behind every other class on average.

klink012 · May 2016

Flaminir wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

XaXa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Fecius wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

The potential for high DPS is definitely already there - next patch you can do the same with overlol builds by slotting Elegance set from vSO (+20% dmg on overload light/heavy attacks)

Overload in vMoL?! Ok, when you never ult on a trash-packs to have at least 1 min overload for a 5-8 min more or less AOE boss fights it's not a good way to utilise your ultimates.

1000 ultimate points is 5-6 Shooting Stars (170 Ults for one plus ults back for hits) vs 1 min overload... It's just a joke. Not talking about the fact that without using ulty while charging 1000 you are loosing your value on trash encounters.

It doesn't answer my question: why would I take more than ONE Magicka Sorc in my vMoL or vSO Trial Group?

The overload damage is just crazy with Elegance set though - the 5-piece is worth around 1,5k spell damage. We'll see next patch if it's worth it.

As to your question, I think a better one would be: why wouldn't I take more tha one magicka sorc? The answer to that isn't that they deal less DPS than other magicka classes, 40k on 2nd bosses (as shown on the video) is comparable to any magicka NB/templar/DK.

Yes but thats the problem. To get even close to comparative DPS on a boss is is basically REQUIRED we slot overload and spam light attack. every other class has multiple play styles that are effective execpt us.

Check the video I linked, no Overload used.

And as the poster above mentioned.... every class has multiple valid builds.... we have one.

And as you yourself mentioned... the number of sorc's that can pull that off are very very low.

And I'd like to point out, the video in question is in a full raid setup, will full raid buffs, using some of the best players in the world/game.... that kind of niche is possibly the worst way of viewing any kind of issues with any class (Not just sorc's).... it's the most limited way possible of viewing things, and totally ignores all the issues that have been raised in this and all the other sorc threads....

... It's basically saying... look, in perfect circumstances the best player in the world, supported by more of the best players in the world once pulled good dps..... therefore all other issues are void.

Agreed. Other classes that are randomly grouped together with PICK UP GROUPS pull these numbers.

Grao · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

holosoul wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Best I've seen magicka NB pull on that particular encounter is 38-39k, for magicka templar I've seen 42k DPS once.

I think saying "other magicka builds get more DPS" isn't really that close to reality.

Except you weren't in the raid of that video.
Are you implying the only sorc in the raid was their #1 DPS?

No, even in "your" raids, the NBs that are not world class are getting the same DPS as that world best sorc video.

No, but I seriously doubt their raid DPS is much different than our own and 39k is pretty much as good as you can hope for as magicka build. Maybe magplars can get a little bit more, magicka NBs sure can't (prove me wrong, please).

Won't comment on magicka DKs, because they've all rerolled stamina.

Yeah just because you doubt that, it doesn't make it true. I don't want to be offensive, but without the numbers of the others we don't know anything. If every buff and debuff and everything else was perfect could increase the DPS of the others as well above your 39k. So the problem remains.

Just like someone claiming magicka sorc dps sucks doesn't make it true.

Atleast I've provided proof to back up my argument that magicka sorc DPS is fine, no matter how incomplete that proof is.

The reason I doubt that their average magicka DPS is 40k+ is because afaik not even Hodor is doing that at the moment (and they have much higher vMoL score than Crown Store Heroes).

There is no arguing against the DPS ceiling for each class though. Sorcerers can achieve a maximum DPS of about 40 - 41k DPS while other classes, under their optimal circumstances can reach values between 45k and 55k. At the same time those classes that do have stronger DPS options also have Utility that by far outshines a Sorcerer's utility, thus there is a clear balance issue.

Why would a raid take more than one sorcerer when at best their DPS can maybe match the other classes, but at the same time they provide so very little class utility? Until sorcerers offer more to the group in terms of DPS or Utility it is far better to bring an extra Stamina DK with absurd DPS or a Templar / Nightblade with Nova / Veil.

I won't comment on the group utility, maybe sorcs could use more of that but... 45k-55k DPS at vMoL 2nd bosses?

I'd like to see which class/build does that, because the highest I've seen is a 42k from magicka templar.

The exact point I've been trying to make is that sorcs have pretty much the same "DPS ceiling" as other magicka builds, maybe slightly behind magicka templars (and slightly ahead of magicka NBs).

Raising that DPS ceiling for magicka sorcs would just make them better than others - kind of like stamina DKs are compared to other stamina classes. That is not balance. As a person who mains a stamina nightblade, it is not something I would wish for anyone on the magicka side to endure.

If anything, they should make it easier to reach that "DPS ceiling" for sorcs, but they should not raise it per se by just simply increasing DPS (which already is fine when played correctly).

Alright, you are talking about the one fight in the entire game in which DPS sorcerers can perform similarly to other DPS. That fight does describe ideal conditions though and thus it is non correlated to the DPS ceiling for the classes as I was describing. As it stands the ceiling for sorcerer dps is between 40-41 k DPS while other classes can achieve up to 45 - 55k, even if such numbers are not possible in VMol.

As for you argument that increasing sorcerer DPS would not be balance because it would make our DPS outperform other classes, I have to disagree. even if ZOS raised our DPS to the point we outperform other DPS builds it would still be balanced because ours is the class that brings the least utility to the raid. A DPS has to bring high numbers OR great utility, if you can't bring either, your class is not wanted for competitive raiding.

Also, you seem to be very fixated on Magicka DPS while I am talking highest DPS achievable with the class, stamina or magicka, both options are very weak for sorcerers. Each one of the other classes can achieve higher DPS than ours as our DPS ceiling is too low. It is simple math really...

DDuke · May 2016

This argument is growing increasingly circular, so I'll just leave one more post to consider & be on my merry way:

You can't just look at things in a vacuum. You can't just say "oh, the average sorcerer cannot deal equal DPS to other classes, so lets boost the DPS of all sorcerers".

I have news for you: the average stamina DK isn't topping DPS charts either - it's the good ones that do.

So if anything, changes should be made so that a bigger variety of sorcerer builds are able to pull off good DPS, since I fully acknowledge that there's a very big quantity of sorcs not doing that. But that needs to be done without buffing the already strong builds that do highly competitive DPS.

After all, if you end up making one magicka build better than others, it becomes more or less a requirement to play that magicka build. There's a very good reason Stamina NBs don't really get to do Trials: even though they offer more utility than a stamina DK with their Veil, they deal so much worse DPS that you don't want them in your group.

XaXa · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

This argument is growing increasingly circular, so I'll just leave one more post to consider & be on my merry way:

You can't just look at things in a vacuum. You can't just say "oh, the average sorcerer cannot deal equal DPS to other classes, so lets boost the DPS of all sorcerers".

I have news for you: the average stamina DK isn't topping DPS charts either - it's the good ones that do.

So if anything, changes should be made so that a bigger variety of sorcerer builds are able to pull off good DPS, since I fully acknowledge that there's a very big quantity of sorcs not doing that. But that needs to be done without buffing the already strong builds that do highly competitive DPS.

After all, if you end up making one magicka build better than others, it becomes more or less a requirement to play that magicka build. There's a very good reason Stamina NBs don't really get to do Trials: even though they offer more utility than a stamina DK with their Veil, they deal so much worse DPS that you don't want them in your group.

I applaud your maturity, professionalism and ability to walk away. Thank you for leaving your opinions in a non toxic manner.

Civility here is already going a long way with the developer communication and i appreciate it that we are keeping it clean!

holosoul · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Yolokin_Swagonborn Whilst I agree many don't want to run pets, the impact of having the health buff on Aegis would be high and make more sense. However the simplest solution would be for Bound Armour to trigger the passive Daedric Protection along with Pets.

Ehm... Bound Armor does trigger the Daedric Protection passive.

For those complaining about magicka sorc DPS:

https://youtu.be/Bfi1e_2xif4

The potential for high DPS is definitely already there - next patch you can do the same with overlol builds by slotting Elegance set from vSO (+20% dmg on overload light/heavy attacks)

Magic Sorcs have hight burst damage. They do not have high DPS. The two are very different. Additionally, using Overload in Vet MoL is a DPS loss.

I guess you didn't watch the video in that quote then (39.3k DPS on vMoL 2nd bosses).

If that constitutes as "low DPS" in your books, I'd love to see examples of how much better the other classes can do at the same encounter.

The sorc in that video doesn't use overload, so your comment below the video is disingenuous.
Most of his DPS is coming from force pulse, and meteor, neither of which are sorc skills.
Liquid lightning is an AOE ground DoT.

Basically, your argument kinda sucks man...

Minalan · May 2016

Ajax_22 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Yolokin_Swagonborn Whilst I agree many don't want to run pets, the impact of having the health buff on Aegis would be high and make more sense. However the simplest solution would be for Bound Armour to trigger the passive Daedric Protection along with Pets.

Ehm... Bound Armor does trigger the Daedric Protection passive.

For those complaining about magicka sorc DPS:

https://youtu.be/Bfi1e_2xif4

The potential for high DPS is definitely already there - next patch you can do the same with overlol builds by slotting Elegance set from vSO (+20% dmg on overload light/heavy attacks)

Magic Sorcs have hight burst damage. They do not have high DPS. The two are very different. Additionally, using Overload in Vet MoL is a DPS loss.

I guess you didn't watch the video in that quote then (39.3k DPS on vMoL 2nd bosses).

I did. The video is missing a lot of context. What was the DPS of the rest of the group? Just because one Magic Sorc can pull out just under 40K in one video of one boss fight doesn't change the fact that the average Sorc is 5-10K DPS behind every other class on average.

So many flaws in this video, that don't apply to the DB PTS:

1. That sorc isn't refreshing shield every four to five seconds.

2. He's animation cancelling and weaving every attack perfectly. Most people can't do that.

3. This is before the surge nerf, so he doesn't need to heal himself, and his healer isnt pressured.

4. This is before losing fighters guild passives, so in DB he'll be doing 9% less damage to undead and daedra. Not sure if any mobs in this count, but daedra and undead make up MOST mobs in the daily pledges. Losing almost one point of damage out of ten will suck.

Can we please stop posting that and saying that sorc damage is fine? Thanks.

Ajax_22 · May 2016

Minalan wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Yolokin_Swagonborn Whilst I agree many don't want to run pets, the impact of having the health buff on Aegis would be high and make more sense. However the simplest solution would be for Bound Armour to trigger the passive Daedric Protection along with Pets.

Ehm... Bound Armor does trigger the Daedric Protection passive.

For those complaining about magicka sorc DPS:

https://youtu.be/Bfi1e_2xif4

The potential for high DPS is definitely already there - next patch you can do the same with overlol builds by slotting Elegance set from vSO (+20% dmg on overload light/heavy attacks)

Magic Sorcs have hight burst damage. They do not have high DPS. The two are very different. Additionally, using Overload in Vet MoL is a DPS loss.

I guess you didn't watch the video in that quote then (39.3k DPS on vMoL 2nd bosses).

I did. The video is missing a lot of context. What was the DPS of the rest of the group? Just because one Magic Sorc can pull out just under 40K in one video of one boss fight doesn't change the fact that the average Sorc is 5-10K DPS behind every other class on average.

So many flaws in this video, that don't apply to the DB PTS:

1. That sorc isn't refreshing shield every four to five seconds.

2. He's animation cancelling and weaving every attack perfectly. Most people can't do that.

3. This is before the surge nerf, so he doesn't need to heal himself, and his healer isnt pressured.

4. This is before losing fighters guild passives, so in DB he'll be doing 9% less damage to undead and daedra. Not sure if any mobs in this count, but daedra and undead make up MOST mobs in the daily pledges. Losing almost one point of damage out of ten will suck.

Can we please stop posting that and saying that sorc damage is fine? Thanks.

While I agree Magic Sorcs need more sustained damage, and that video shows absolutely nothing. A lot of your points have no bearing on the topic.

He's in a Trial. Sorcs don't slot ward in a trial.
His weaves were on point, but there wasn't very much animation canceling in that video. Animation cancelling is more of a PvP thing, and there is very little to animation cancel in a trial.
He's not using Surge at all. Like most top tier trial runners he is using potions for his Major Sorcery buff.
Everyone will be losing that spell damage so it won't have any affect on comparative DPS.

SwaminoNowlino · May 2016

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Do you still plan on taking questions from other classes too after Sorcs?

Yes, though realistically it's going to be after the Dark Brotherhood PC/Mac launch. We'll likely spin up a new thread in each class's forum area and take questions from there.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom Don't want to steal or distract from this thread. But could you put a LOCKED forum post out on the general discussion thread or the combat and mechanics thread or somewhere that states you are going to be doing this (which doesn't need to devolve into arguing or people yelling at you in that thread). Also could you provide an example of what you all are specifically looking for in terms of feedback and what you and the team are looking for/considering? (Not a "NERF THIS, your stupid, NERF THAT, They are OP so I need to be OP as well" type thing, but well reasoned, fact based stuff)

This is a tremendous and much welcomed opportunity and I would like to avoid people squandering it or trolling.

Or maybe just create an "Official Overall Class Feedback Thread - Sorcs/Templars/DKs/etc" that states what you have said here and what the team is looking for in terms of constructive feedback, and then heavily moderate those threads so that only constructive posts are housed there?

Ideally I'd like to see stuff debated in general threads and then carried over to the official thread as a repository of feedback and response.

I only say this because not everyone reads the sorc thread and knows that you all are doing some great outreach work, and I want people to know about it and make the most of this opportunity. Thanks and keep up the great work!

Grao · May 2016

XaXa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

This argument is growing increasingly circular, so I'll just leave one more post to consider & be on my merry way:

You can't just look at things in a vacuum. You can't just say "oh, the average sorcerer cannot deal equal DPS to other classes, so lets boost the DPS of all sorcerers".

I have news for you: the average stamina DK isn't topping DPS charts either - it's the good ones that do.

So if anything, changes should be made so that a bigger variety of sorcerer builds are able to pull off good DPS, since I fully acknowledge that there's a very big quantity of sorcs not doing that. But that needs to be done without buffing the already strong builds that do highly competitive DPS.

After all, if you end up making one magicka build better than others, it becomes more or less a requirement to play that magicka build. There's a very good reason Stamina NBs don't really get to do Trials: even though they offer more utility than a stamina DK with their Veil, they deal so much worse DPS that you don't want them in your group.

I applaud your maturity, professionalism and ability to walk away. Thank you for leaving your opinions in a non toxic manner.

Civility here is already going a long way with the developer communication and i appreciate it that we are keeping it clean!

I am sorry, I can't applaud him. Professionalism involves accuracy and both his assumptions and data are incorrect. To say there is a sorcerer build that is truly competitive simply because it is able to match the DPS of some of the other classes in one fight out of several in this game is absurd. That is what looking at a situation in a vacuum looks like.

The guy is not a sorcerer main or even a strong sorcerer, he is a templar, you can see it on his uploads. I do agree with his point that more builds should be viable for sorcerers, but to be honest, I will be happy when we have at least one build that can actually perform as well as the other classes in Utility and Damage Output in EVERY fight. Currently we don't have that, we don't even have a shadow of that.

XaXa · May 2016

Grao wrote: »

XaXa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

This argument is growing increasingly circular, so I'll just leave one more post to consider & be on my merry way:

You can't just look at things in a vacuum. You can't just say "oh, the average sorcerer cannot deal equal DPS to other classes, so lets boost the DPS of all sorcerers".

I have news for you: the average stamina DK isn't topping DPS charts either - it's the good ones that do.

So if anything, changes should be made so that a bigger variety of sorcerer builds are able to pull off good DPS, since I fully acknowledge that there's a very big quantity of sorcs not doing that. But that needs to be done without buffing the already strong builds that do highly competitive DPS.

After all, if you end up making one magicka build better than others, it becomes more or less a requirement to play that magicka build. There's a very good reason Stamina NBs don't really get to do Trials: even though they offer more utility than a stamina DK with their Veil, they deal so much worse DPS that you don't want them in your group.

I applaud your maturity, professionalism and ability to walk away. Thank you for leaving your opinions in a non toxic manner.

Civility here is already going a long way with the developer communication and i appreciate it that we are keeping it clean!

I am sorry, I can't applaud him. Professionalism involves accuracy and both his assumptions and data are incorrect. To say there is a sorcerer build that is truly competitive simply because it is able to match the DPS of some of the other classes in one fight out of several in this game is absurd. That is what looking at a situation in a vacuum looks like.

The guy is not a sorcerer main or even a strong sorcerer, he is a templar, you can see it on his uploads. I do agree with his point that more builds should be viable for sorcerers, but to be honest, I will be happy when we have at least one build that can actually perform as well as the other classes in Utility and Damage Output in EVERY fight. Currently we don't have that, we don't even have a shadow of that.

Fair enough. I can agree with you on that. But im more applauding the fact that he threw in his hat instead of just getting louder.

Either way. Its done now.

holosoul · May 2016

Ajax_22 wrote: »

His weaves were on point, but there wasn't very much animation canceling in that video. Animation cancelling is more of a PvP thing, and there is very little to animation cancel in a trial.

Maybe what we call animation cancelling is what you call spell weaving, but he is animation cancelling non stop throughout the entire video.

Makkir · May 2016

I cannot seem to find any notes on why everyone is saying the DW sorc is dead. I never used trapping webs/dawnbreaker anyway so I am trying to find if some other change was made (like swords no longer increasing Spell dmg) to support this claim. Anyone?

XaXa · May 2016

Makkir wrote: »

I cannot seem to find any notes on why everyone is saying the DW sorc is dead. I never used trapping webs/dawnbreaker anyway so I am trying to find if some other change was made (like swords no longer increasing Spell dmg) to support this claim. Anyone?

Mainly comes from the nerfs to shields / surge. To now have any reliable heals magicka sorcs are going to mostly be shoehorned into destro/restro.

Derra · May 2016

Little idea i just had on shieldstacking as it´s more fitting in this topic:

Derra wrote: »

They should have implemented a mechanic that reduced shield duration by 50% (multiplicative) for every shield cast on self by a character (that way DK and barrier don´t gimp other players and healing ward would remain a good nonselfheal) and set the normal lengh to something like 14s (for healingward the heal would have to be reduced aswell). Maybe a little less for harness ~10s and 20s for empowered ward.

1shield = 14s hardened; 10s harness; 6s healing ward
2 shields = 7s hardened; 5s harness; 3s healing ward 50% reduced healing
3 shields = 3.5s hardened; 2.5s harness; 1.5s healing ward 75% reduced healing

That way single shield users would not have been punished as harsh while trippleshields would basically be completely useless bc of the risk of getting cced and dying.

holosoul · May 2016

Makkir wrote: »

I cannot seem to find any notes on why everyone is saying the DW sorc is dead. I never used trapping webs/dawnbreaker anyway so I am trying to find if some other change was made (like swords no longer increasing Spell dmg) to support this claim. Anyone?

If you use DW you will have no way to apply poisons which are way more important than the marginal DPS increase of DW in raw spell power
poisons can only be applied by light/heavy and weapon skills.

holosoul · May 2016

For example, if you ran DW lets say you gain 10% damage (an over-estimation)
but then you can't apply a debuff that reduces your enemy's stamina regeneration and magicka regeneration by 60%

Do you really think that is better?

Makkir · May 2016

XaXa wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

I cannot seem to find any notes on why everyone is saying the DW sorc is dead. I never used trapping webs/dawnbreaker anyway so I am trying to find if some other change was made (like swords no longer increasing Spell dmg) to support this claim. Anyone?

Mainly comes from the nerfs to shields / surge. To now have any reliable heals magicka sorcs are going to mostly be shoehorned into destro/restro.

Wow, ok. Doesn't affect my build whatsoever. I only run currently entropy and healing ward (and if you want to include the health recovery from potions) for heals.

I think you can run a few impen pieces or maybe find a spot for boundless storm for the extra mitigation and run spell dmg enchants on your swords to compensate the loss of infused/divines on armor, then either defending trait or a posion on resto staff.

Yeah I don't think dual wield is dead, and as soon as I cant test Vampirisim on PTS (stupid template forcing me to level it) I can test viability of Poison Mist + Devouring Swarm on a dual wield build.

Makkir · May 2016

holosoul wrote: »

For example, if you ran DW lets say you gain 10% damage (an over-estimation)
but then you can't apply a debuff that reduces your enemy's stamina regeneration and magicka regeneration by 60%

Do you really think that is better?

So you can't apply said poison with your resto staff then swap over to DW bar?

STEVIL · May 2016

Makkir wrote: »

holosoul wrote: »

For example, if you ran DW lets say you gain 10% damage (an over-estimation)
but then you can't apply a debuff that reduces your enemy's stamina regeneration and magicka regeneration by 60%

Do you really think that is better?

So you can't apply said poison with your resto staff then swap over to DW bar?

Yes you can but shhhh... you are interrupting the rage.

However, remember the OP poisons they are raging over will for YOUR examole they will bring up the only 20% proc cjance but for their examples it seems oft forgotten.

Also keep in mind the dual enchant you have on main. Bar are trippled.

Derra · May 2016

Makkir wrote: »

holosoul wrote: »

For example, if you ran DW lets say you gain 10% damage (an over-estimation)
but then you can't apply a debuff that reduces your enemy's stamina regeneration and magicka regeneration by 60%

Do you really think that is better?

So you can't apply said poison with your resto staff then swap over to DW bar?

Poisons don´t have a 100% chance to be applied. Having to stick to resto until you manage to get it to procc and then turning offensive with DW is basically handing the fight to your enemy especially as with resto poisons would only get applied with light attacks because you don´t have access to any weaponattack there.

NativeJoe · May 2016

Makkir wrote: »

XaXa wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

I cannot seem to find any notes on why everyone is saying the DW sorc is dead. I never used trapping webs/dawnbreaker anyway so I am trying to find if some other change was made (like swords no longer increasing Spell dmg) to support this claim. Anyone?

Mainly comes from the nerfs to shields / surge. To now have any reliable heals magicka sorcs are going to mostly be shoehorned into destro/restro.

Wow, ok. Doesn't affect my build whatsoever. I only run currently entropy and healing ward (and if you want to include the health recovery from potions) for heals.

I think you can run a few impen pieces or maybe find a spot for boundless storm for the extra mitigation and run spell dmg enchants on your swords to compensate the loss of infused/divines on armor, then either defending trait or a posion on resto staff.

Yeah I don't think dual wield is dead, and as soon as I cant test Vampirisim on PTS (stupid template forcing me to level it) I can test viability of Poison Mist + Devouring Swarm on a dual wield build.

There is more.

Your losing 9% of your spell power against undead and whatnot.

Many things like "curse" are no longer considered dots and no longer get boosted by dot specific CP. Proxy damage has been changed, (it's lower vs 1 person but scales up by 25% per target. so gL if your running a true pet build (5 pets).

Poisons increase the cost of casting stuff by 60% and also drain magicka... which is awesome since we have to spam shields every 6 seconds...(which means you cannot shield in pve because it's a super hefty dps loss and magicka drain) ~also means u can't wander from point a to point b in cyrodil shielded.(which in turn means your not welcome in zergs because if someone hits you, ur going to pop without a shield and cause a VD explosion), There are so many "knock back" CC moves that cannot be CC broken right now, but have a short duration...and in pvp.... that can be exploited to leave you wide open. Just like you can't break Fear immediately there's a 1handed combo that does the same thing basically.

So with Us having a great deal more potential damage incoming do to openings in our defense being artificially put there by Zos...We need greater heals then our pet that gets 1 shot and a flat rate healing crit surge. Essentially 95% of sorc builds basically require you to slot a restoration staff.

To have a spammable dps rotation with the removal of webs as a magickal attack we our Now FORCED to have a destro staff.

So build variety (the little bit we had) has been nuked.

There are talks among pvp guilds, Trial guilds, and even core groups about Not allowing sorcs into their groups. Sorcs as I've literally heard it put are a "liability" that many just don't want to waste their time with. They don't bring utility to the group, they are going to drain the resources of healers, and frankly any other choice class wise is better suited for the job because they can get bigger deeps, bring utility, and self sustain all at the same time.

So... your probably going okay... Idc... I'll just solo pvp right? Well... Zergs now have their own form of proxy det verses fast moving elites. Poisons. which Zos made sure EVERY SINGLE ONE can be applied to you consecutively... So a run by a Zerg to snag a few zerglings can get you tagged by 5-6 different poisons and by the time you drag them to the place where you wanna kill them your going to be out of resources have on going dots, and if your using duel swords to try to out mitigate all those dots... may the gods have mercy upon your soul.

Or maybe you just care about veteran maelstrom arena? Well here watch this :>>>>>>NEW NERFED Magicka DB Sorc runs by one of our flawless elites: https://www.twitch.tv/erimgard/v/67316166 <<<<<<<<
He's a top 1% player. his VMA scores are the top 200 players in the world. And he is a regular flawless in VMA on live.
He dies repeatedly in VMA. which begs the question.... what do the rest of us have?

But if your a farmer. sure... you'll be fine.

Makkir · May 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

holosoul wrote: »

For example, if you ran DW lets say you gain 10% damage (an over-estimation)
but then you can't apply a debuff that reduces your enemy's stamina regeneration and magicka regeneration by 60%

Do you really think that is better?

So you can't apply said poison with your resto staff then swap over to DW bar?

Yes you can but shhhh... you are interrupting the rage.

However, remember the OP poisons they are raging over will for YOUR examole they will bring up the only 20% proc cjance but for their examples it seems oft forgotten.

Also keep in mind the dual enchant you have on main. Bar are trippled.

@STEVIL can you clarify your last sentence for me?

Also, I saw all the poisons and yes a lot of them look attractive but I don't think it's the end of the world. I think with certain builds and setups you can probably get by with normal enchants.

Makkir · May 2016

@NativeJoe do you a link to your comment about every single poison being able to affect you from zergs? I am pretty sure I read that if someone else applies a poison to you it will override the first poison applied, which to me makes sense. Maybe I am wrong.

Your comments about VMA, yeah I am well aware of what this DLC is doing to our PvE. I don't understand how difficult it is to leave our abilities alone and just add a simple code, for example to hardened ward, that reads "This duration is reduced to 6 seconds while in Cyrodiil." That way we can keep *** separate from PvE.

NativeJoe · May 2016

Makkir wrote: »

@NativeJoe do you a link to your comment about every single poison being able to affect you from zergs? I am pretty sure I read that if someone else applies a poison to you it will override the first poison applied, which to me makes sense. Maybe I am wrong.

Your comments about VMA, yeah I am well aware of what this DLC is doing to our PvE. I don't understand how difficult it is to leave our abilities alone and just add a simple code, for example to hardened ward, that reads "This duration is reduced to 6 seconds while in Cyrodiil." That way we can keep *** separate from PvE.

Pts patch notes 2.4.2 highlighting the intentions:
*In several cases, applying two different poisons to your target will result in the first poison being overwritten by the second poison. This is not intended, and all different poison types will be able to coexist on the same target in a future patch.

The idea is that they can at best apply 20 or so different poisons to you if your just impossible to kill. Every poison will stack on top of the other. Basically it's the Zergs form of Proxy. Anyone dumb enough to try to come near a zerg will get tagged by poisons if not annilated. Also there are poisons which increase cost of ults..so if u wanted to ult bomb and *just had enough * to bomb em...sadly ur screwed. lol

The_Great_Maldini · May 2016

Maybe a better a balance to the decreased duration of Hardened would be to take away the 50% PvP reduction. Shortened duration but more potent.

NativeJoe · May 2016

The_Great_Maldini wrote: »

Maybe a better a balance to the decreased duration of Hardened would be to take away the 50% PvP reduction. Shortened duration but more potent.

Yeah... it's more likly they're discussing more nerfs, perhaps cast times, making shields interruptible, crit-able, and adding them to major and minor system. But here's my suggestion. keep the nerfs... and make it also a purge. because I don't have time to purge, shield and attack.