Can anyone from ZOS confirm why crafting node scaling was introduced?

ManwithBeard9

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Dude, Why do you think I should care how many crafters you have? I mean, if you can do it in 30 minutes why should I care. Why bring it up? And let me remind you that players with muliple maxed crafters are the tiniest of minorities in this discussion.

@NeillMcAttack , you seem vocal about this issue ... which is great. Definitely want to encourage more discussion and debate where needed.

I've linked the 15-page discussion in PTS on craft node scaling:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/222451/official-feedback-thread-for-crafting-node-scaling/p1

Main question is why weren't you posting more in this discussion before the current node scaling system went Live? If it wasn't an issue back at the beginning of March when Thieves Guild came out, why is it an issue now?

Because I don't have access to the PTS, and I simply didn't see this change having this great an effect on my enjoyment of playing new content. It genuinely caught me off-guard. I was honestly really looking forward to playing and progressing my Stam DK in this new content, but now when i play him I feel as if I may as well just wait a few months when the proposed change occurs and he will be able to progress more naturally the same way I've always enjoyed the game.

Just because you dont have access to the PTS doesnt mean you can participate in the discussion about whats happening on it and what could be implemented when it goes live. Ignorance is no excuse.

NeillMcAttack

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Dude, Why do you think I should care how many crafters you have? I mean, if you can do it in 30 minutes why should I care. Why bring it up? And let me remind you that players with muliple maxed crafters are the tiniest of minorities in this discussion.

@NeillMcAttack , you seem vocal about this issue ... which is great. Definitely want to encourage more discussion and debate where needed.

I've linked the 15-page discussion in PTS on craft node scaling:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/222451/official-feedback-thread-for-crafting-node-scaling/p1

Main question is why weren't you posting more in this discussion before the current node scaling system went Live? If it wasn't an issue back at the beginning of March when Thieves Guild came out, why is it an issue now?

Because I don't have access to the PTS, and I simply didn't see this change having this great an effect on my enjoyment of playing new content. It genuinely caught me off-guard. I was honestly really looking forward to playing and progressing my Stam DK in this new content, but now when i play him I feel as if I may as well just wait a few months when the proposed change occurs and he will be able to progress more naturally the same way I've always enjoyed the game.

Just because you dont have access to the PTS doesnt mean you can participate in the discussion about whats happening on it and what could be implemented when it goes live. Ignorance is no excuse.

Are you actually serious right now? Would you like me to make more of an effort in the future? Perhaps I should be required to do more research on upcoming changes!? What are you actually trying to add to the discussion here? That I was ignorant! Well, that's enlightening, thank you so much for pointing that out. I guess that means I am wrong for giving any feedback on this subject then.

Refuse2GrowUp

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

@jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Without some kind of change to the current system, what we have is the majority of max level material locked behind a passive ability which is supposed to be optional. At which point, in order to reach endgame, crafting becomes mandatory. That is the real slippery slope. When a skill that is intended to be optional, becomes a necessity.

And no, forcing someone into a zone to run around in circles to collect materials is not a natural means of progression.

Your arguments are really not looking at the big picture for a couple of reasons. The first is that you are basically rallying to make crafting mandatory in order to compete, or even participate in end game activities. At which point crafting loses all value and you in turn actually end up with more competition for your materials, or of course, a smaller player base.

Secondly, if high level mats are only to be acquired by max level crafters, your economy literally falls apart, crafters are not only required to craft the gear, but to farm it too?!? Stuff becomes real expensive, real fast, for those without the "optional passives". This kind of standard would actually require a massive overhaul of how gold within the economy is distributed where crafters, who would have infinite amounts of it, and non-crafters, if they still exist at this point, are forced to give every bit of it to crafters.

And that's all besides the point. You never made the choice to level crafting so that you could exclusively farm the highest level mats. You did it so that you could use the refined mats to craft gear. It's simple as that. It is in fact you who is asking for something you didn't work for. Your reward is the crafting not the gathering, stop getting the two mixed up.

Except, obtaining mats from crafting nodes is not the only way to obtain them. Any v16/16 toon will get mats from item drops, chests, dailies, etc for decon. Yields almost, if not more mats depending on your play style.

Dagonthir

Dubhliam wrote: »

Why am I under the impression that everyone thinks they NEED to craft?

It is a personal choice to become a crafter.

That's because everyone posting in this thread does do crafting, and cares about crafting. I wouldn't interpret the people posting here to be indicative of the overall population, so I wouldn't assume that everyone "else" (ie. people not posting here) thinks they need to do crafting.

Dubhliam

Dagonthir wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Why am I under the impression that everyone thinks they NEED to craft?

It is a personal choice to become a crafter.

That's because everyone posting in this thread does do crafting, and cares about crafting. I wouldn't interpret the people posting here to be indicative of the overall population, so I wouldn't assume that everyone "else" (ie. people not posting here) thinks they need to do crafting.

Agree. There are many people that don't craft.

But some of those that do craft feel entitled to do it effortlessly.

snorlockb16_ESO wrote: »

[snip]
The game is designed so that crafting either takes effort on your part, or takes gold to pay someone.

This is the best summary of this whole topic.

Dagonthir

MSchroeder wrote: »

We introduced scaled crafting resource nodes with the intent of making sure anyone could find useful crafting materials when they went to a scaled zone, such as Orsinium or Hew’s Bane

From my point of view, it's unfortunate that ZOS made a change to address on thing - "make sure anyone could find useful crafting materials when they went to a scaled zone" - but now some people are liking it for a different reason - that it limits peoples' access to resources and thus allows master crafters to farm nodes and either sell them for higher prices or use them to craft gear for higher prices than before. So it's kind of like one type of player, ie. the hardcore crafter who has one or more master crafters, is benefiting from this new node scaling at the expense of another type of player, ie. the casual crafter that either has crafting spread out across multiple characters or has just one master crafter and doesn't want to have to level up multiple master crafters just so they can go to the new zones and find useful nodes on any of their characters while questing. So basically, one type of player benefited at the expense of another type of player. In my opinion, no such changes should ever be made, or at least not on as drastic a level as the node scaling was. And I don't believe that was ZOS' intent. I think ZOS meant this change as a convenience to facilitate people going to the new zones at any level, but overlooked the case of people taking non-crafting alts into the new zones.

Dubhliam

The suggestion ZOS gave us to consider is a good one IMO.
Not exactly necessary, but I would not mind it.

HOWEVER!

The ratio of craft scaled vs level scaled nodes should be heavily in favor of crafting. 3:1 for example.

The vast majority of players are max level, and even if they aren't, they will be some day. Max level is the goal of almost every player.
The minority that did put some effort into their craft professions, collected enough skill points and invested them into crafting should have the upper hand in collecting crafting materials.

There are many ways for non crafters to obtain v16 crafting materials already (TV stones, decon dropped items...).

I understand the OPs situation, on the one hand he does craft, and has invested into crafting for one character, but has abandoned leveling that character.
But not being able to farm resource nodes with another character does not prevent OP from crafting.
He just needs to find another way to earn gold to buy materials with.
Or simply put some more effort into that max level character.

You always have choice.

NeillMcAttack

It's highly likely they will, or would like to implement, a ratio system similar to that of wrothgar.

From my point of view I would like a ratio that doesn't hurt my desire to play my non crafting alts.

Saying that, looking ahead, I can see them adjusting the ratios over time relative to the games cycles of dlc and level or champion rank progression (similar to what we seen coming from wrothgar to Hew's bane).

NeillMcAttack

Dubhliam wrote: »

snorlockb16_ESO wrote: »

[snip]
The game is designed so that crafting either takes effort on your part, or takes gold to pay someone.

This is the best summary of this whole topic.

But this is the first time crafting has givin a much larger advantage as that of having greater access to the materials people need though. I think it is quite obvious that the devs didn't intend to have this change make it SO favorable to crafters or remove a players incentive to play another character.

Surely you can at least agree that they are in fact unintended consequences of what is happening? Even though you would certainly like or not mind that it SHOULD be the case.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

It doesnt take any time or gold to become a lvl 50 say blacksmith. The time and effort comes in researching traits and learning crafting styles. It takes literally no time at all to hit level 50 in the crafting skill. If you are already vet rank starting at 0 you can decon stuff and hit 25 in a day. 50 will take you maybe a week. That is not the definition of hardcore at all. You also do not have to sink points into anything but the main passive. I worked up woodworking, blacksmithy and clothing siomply by deconning items and doing writs once a day.

If you cant be bothered to even make that small of an effort then you will be stuck buying ingots from real crafters. That or you can go to cyrodill and farm top tier mats till your inventory is full. What you guys want is a reward for doing nothing. Thats not how rewards work.

MissBizz

First let me point out... not everyone wants to "farm" mats to sell them on guild traders etc.

Before Orsinium came around, everywhere you went - the crafting nodes were based on the level of the zone/mobs which for all intents and purposes was meant to match your character level. Even if you weren't a crafter, you could casually (NOT farm) pick up mats while questing. These mats would be your character level, and you could send them over to someone to make you gear. Maybe it's a guildee that does it for free since you have the mats, maybe the crafter just charges you less since you supplied the materials - doesn't matter.

It worked well. Some people still couldn't be bothered to pick up mats and had no interest, so they would buy the mats or pay a crafter more to supply the materials.

This is partly why the game can be so confusing for new players. You go through a LARGE amount of the game with something (such as mats matching you character) and then all of a sudden it changes once you step foot into a DLC.

@jamesharv2005ub17_ESO I have put in the "work". I put that work into a VR3 character who knows all the traits, every passive (except snake blood, like, does anyone get that). Why do you feel I haven't put into the "work" because I would like to casually pick up mats that are useful (aka can actually make gear my own level) on my VR16? I have put in the work.

To be honest, since then, yes, I did level up my crafting on that VR16. It also completely stopped me from participating in those DLC's on her until I did. So this change would kind of suck, because I did put that "work" into getting her crafting levelled up and if this change were to happen, it would be kind of pointless. But I don't care! It makes more sense to at least have a CHANCE of finding a material I can actually use on the character I found it on.

Also, just saying. It was mentioned previously "just go to the non scaled zone where your level of mats appear" - that's an issue at VR16. There isn't a "non-scaled" zone with VR16 mats free for the picking.

Also - hate to bring this up.. but does anyone remember in the road ahead they said something along the lines of "drastically changing how your character interprets zone levels" or something like that. Let's just think for a second. IF they are considering making ALL zones scale... well, then "going to your normal level zone to get mats your level" likely won't apply anymore. So I sure as heck would like a CHANCE of my character getting mats her level. Even when I levelling up alts - it's REALLY nice to go to those zones and quest - and casually pick up materials her level. I then can use my "crafter" to make her gear since skill points are something extra special when you are just starting out. I couldn't afford to sink skill points into my crafting that early on.

I really really would like to see a change. Sure, I would love to have a setting where I pick if I see mats for my character level, or my crafting passive level, but I imagine that's impossible to implement. I'm all go for a chance for it to be one of the two.

[EDIT] Oh, and as for getting my VR16 mats from decon. Doesn't happen because unfortunately I need to send all decon stuff over to my third VR so that she also can become maxed in crafting before I go to the DLC with her. Unfortunately, you don't actually gets any mats back from that until you are max level.. so a single tear runs down my face every time I log onto her and decon large amounts of VR16 loot.. and get no VR16 materials from it.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

The "work" needs to be done on each character as far as raising the passive to 10. All the other stuff like research etc you dont have to do again obviously. So if you want ot casually pickup top tier mats you have a choice. A couple choices actually. Go to cyrodill and farm mats there. That or level up your crafting to 50 (less than a week just deconning vr16 items) and then put 10 points into the skill.

Each character has to be leveled. You dont get a free pass after you level one. Im sure a lot want this change. Most people want the shortcuts and dont want to put in the effort required. Of course its something you want. Its not healthy for the game tho to hand people things and mess over the economy etc because people dont want to spend a minuscule amount of time and a minor amount of points for the convenience of being able to farm top tier mats on a non crafter.

Dagonthir

MissBizz wrote: »

(except snake blood, like, does anyone get that)

Nope! Also, I agree with everything you said.

Dagonthir

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

But this is the first time crafting has givin a much larger advantage as that of having greater access to the materials people need though. I think it is quite obvious that the devs didn't intend to have this change make it SO favorable to crafters or remove a players incentive to play another character.

Surely you can at least agree that they are in fact unintended consequences of what is happening?

I would - this is pretty much exactly what I was referring to in my original post.

MissBizz

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

The "work" needs to be done on each character as far as raising the passive to 10. All the other stuff like research etc you dont have to do again obviously. So if you want ot casually pickup top tier mats you have a choice. A couple choices actually. Go to cyrodill and farm mats there. That or level up your crafting to 50 (less than a week just deconning vr16 items) and then put 10 points into the skill.

Each character has to be leveled. You dont get a free pass after you level one. Im sure a lot want this change. Most people want the shortcuts and dont want to put in the effort required. Of course its something you want. Its not healthy for the game tho to hand people things and mess over the economy etc because people dont want to spend a minuscule amount of time and a minor amount of points for the convenience of being able to farm top tier mats on a non crafter.

"So if you want ot casually pickup top tier mats you have a choice." Sometimes I don't. Sometimes, I would like to enjoy a DLC on my level 18 Nightblade and actually get materials that are good for her level!

It's not just about top tier mats. It's about getting materials useful to your character.

It is not a "minor" number of skill points when you are only level 18. Seriously. Go re-roll a new characters and don't go grab all the skyshards first etc. Play like a normal new player would. You barely have enough skill points to fill up both your bars and grab a couple passives at level 18. You cannot afford those extra skill points. Sure it's barely any at that point, but in comparison you also have a LOT less skill points available to you.

This change was intended to HELP new players/characters but unfortunately it backfired a wee bit. Yeah, it helps them level up their crafting once they have enough skill points to spare for it, but it's not helping them obtain gear useful to them. The entire rest of the game worked that way - you could obtain materials useful to you - and it worked darn well. If they made materials available at both tiers (your character level and craftin passive level) it would definitely be a step in the right direction of helping the player doing the content. It still doesn't spoon feed the player either, as in, if they want to have that gear crafted they need to put into the effort to level up crafting (on any character) OR will obtain the services from a specialized crafter.

People will STILL not pick up mats, and people will STILL not do their own crafting. I promise you. There will still be a market for crafters to sell their goods and services. There was before this change (by this change I mean scaling crafting nodes).

Dagonthir wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

(except snake blood, like, does anyone get that)

Nope! Also, I agree with everything you said.

Thanks. Hah, and yeah... I wish that passive was actually useful... lol

Myxril

MissBizz wrote: »

"So if you want ot casually pickup top tier mats you have a choice." Sometimes I don't. Sometimes, I would like to enjoy a DLC on my level 18 Nightblade and actually get materials that are good for her level!

It's not just about top tier mats. It's about getting materials useful to your character.

If you want to enjoy DLC on your NB, then enjoy the DLC.
If you want to farm nodes for material relevant to your character's level, then go to a leveled zone that contains material pertaining to your character's level.
If you want to farm nodes for material relevent to your character's craft progress, then go to a scaled zone.
- Level scales up to meet the zone's mobs, nodes scale up to meet your craft. So simple it's smart.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Obviously economics says if you let just anyone pickup top tier mats they wont be worth anything but vendoring. Doesnt take a genius to figure this out. Supply skyrockets and demand decreases.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

People say "Chests arent something you are supposed to make a "liiving" in the game on!". Or treasure troves arent something you are supposed to make most of your money on. Crafting IS something designed to make money. A main source of money. That includes selling materials.

NewBlacksmurf

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

@jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Without some kind of change to the current system, what we have is the majority of max level material locked behind a passive ability which is supposed to be optional. At which point, in order to reach endgame, crafting becomes mandatory. That is the real slippery slope. When a skill that is intended to be optional, becomes a necessity.

And no, forcing someone into a zone to run around in circles to collect materials is not a natural means of progression.

Your arguments are really not looking at the big picture for a couple of reasons. The first is that you are basically rallying to make crafting mandatory in order to compete, or even participate in end game activities. At which point crafting loses all value and you in turn actually end up with more competition for your materials, or of course, a smaller player base.

Secondly, if high level mats are only to be acquired by max level crafters, your economy literally falls apart, crafters are not only required to craft the gear, but to farm it too?!? Stuff becomes real expensive, real fast, for those without the "optional passives". This kind of standard would actually require a massive overhaul of how gold within the economy is distributed where crafters, who would have infinite amounts of it, and non-crafters, if they still exist at this point, are forced to give every bit of it to crafters.

And that's all besides the point. You never made the choice to level crafting so that you could exclusively farm the highest level mats. You did it so that you could use the refined mats to craft gear. It's simple as that. It is in fact you who is asking for something you didn't work for. Your reward is the crafting not the gathering, stop getting the two mixed up.

High end mats are not locked behind crafting tho...thats the thing you and others are overlooking.
If nothing changes or if the proposed change occurs in the ZOS comment....it doesnt change that the best way to gather high end mats are from breaking down loot. There are ppl who literally run in circles in places only picking up specific loot for breaking down or refining. Crafting levels are not required for either.

There should and has to be significant advantage to using skills and building out crafting. If you're going to get the same stuff as me with no passive skill points then why would anyone use those passives for mats?

Stuff is suppose to become real expensive as thats the whole point of crafting, guild stores and the bid process of traders.
Not attacking you personally but a lot of feedback on this forum is asking for a lot of things for the least amount of input.

In my opinion, that is detrimental to the economy as devaluing the passive skills and increasing the drop rate of materials will drastically lower the buy/sale and eventually end up where everyone has to craft their own stuff because the price will be so low that its not worth the hassle to gather mats, travel to a set crafting place, improve, travel to enchanting place, enchant and then travel to trade.....because if I have all the stuff, then what the value of the crafter?

Fine, one more, but only because you make the strongest case I have seen (sadly, that isn't a GREAT compliment but your competition is lacking).

Unfortunately though, the thinking is very much based in the now, when the proposed changes are coming with a new system.

But to your first point. In which admittedly, it's something I overlooked, deconstruction gives lots of mats but it's very difficult to say it gives more. That is relative to playstyle. For example, levelling my main I focused much more on skyshard and lorebook hunting as I moved through the zones, not fighting and questing, which meant refining yielded more. You know what I mean?

People want independence, that's natural, MMO devs know it, we know it and it's why we have unique looks, loads of different dye's, and especially Crafters. People have no problem going through content that scales with that number above their heads. But when a disparity in access as large as one group having ten times more access to mats, and thus progress, it gives players of a different playstyle a feeling of inadequacy. Especially when the game changes half way through to a system that can only feel like punishment for not doing something that was supposed to be a choice. A choice that never had any bearing on acquiring raw mats to begin with. You never want to push a player into a situation where they have to go back on independant decisions and realize they wasted so much time, and that the end game they were seeking is so far off now that they give up.

At this point I just to say straight up, that guild traders, while they can be very reliable quite often, probably should never be the only option for people. People, especially those with limited means of income (non-crafters), will always feel somewhat cheated. Especially when to some there aren't many they have access to, or they have been saving for that next pack upgrade, or whatever.

Anyway, yes, you are right, if every V16 right now could farm an abundance of V16 mats they become VERY cheap. But you undermine the plans from an MMO dev perspective. Vet 16 gear is supposed to be the most accessible its ever been, right now (it will come back down when those crafting passives, with the current system or the proposed one, get another point). This is the natural development cycle of an MMO. And you haven't considered that the system is changing quite drastically around the same time this change will happen. It will once again be easier to control progression without changing the original formula when Champion Rank is what determines character strength. Not material acquirement, which ONLY (<emphasis on 'only') rewards the PLAYSTYLE of people who level multiple crafters.

And finally, the reward for leveling those (this feels like my tenth time saying this) passives and skills is the ability to craft gear. NOT farm raw materials which you actually DO have more access to, writs and blehbu..blabblabluy........

Just commenting on deconstruction giving more.
If you play the game and are questing, running dungeons, doing dailies, doing grinds, etc. these will always provide more materials once deconstructed especially if you only pick up things worth deconstructing compared to running around grabbing nodes.

Nodes require at least 10 to refine into materials and in most cases, you have odd amounts.
What I teach and suggest to non-crafters is if you want high end mats....go run circles in Orsinium public dungeons and loot only the enchants and items that can be decon to produce mats. With 1 pt in the passive you'll have far more materials than anyone farming nodes simply because you can pull 4-10 mobs at a time and do so non-stop for hours literally solo or grouped while farming nodes is a one person thing with long respawn timers that require us to share nodes.

There is a reason ZOS keeps nerfing grind spots and loot tables in grinding areas.


Now on the independence topic....I completely agree that many players want more freedom but because we are all required to play online via a mega server all together, removing the requirement to rely on guild traders, and crafters who use Passives to gather stuff, and make stuff then will make it 100% pointless to have a crafting line. Honestly, if they make it so anyone can farm any material, then why have those Passives. Just refund the skill points because then only the tier passive matters. See it's not just the crafting tiers, but also the other Passives for tempers, improvement, refining, decon and mailed mats.

It may sound selfish even, but doing the suggested change will have a large impact and it's the equivalent to how ZOS reduced the effectiveness of Templar healing. When you make everything so that anyone can do anything as good as another, there is no point in working for anything so people begin to care less, become rude, short and unwilling to help others. The long term impact is an MMORPG like game that's just solo play online.....basically pointless

Again you are arguing that people having the same natural access to the mats of their level makes crafting less valuable. Sure, with the current scaling from passives it does make it more valuable, but crafting and the ability to harvest relative mats was NEVER a part of the equation until now. Your argument is basically, since this change suits me and players with multiple crafters then happy days. And your only thought to players wanting to enjoy the game the same way they always did is, oh well, they should have to go and RUN AROUND IN CIRCLES deconstructing stuff for the game to feel the same way it always did.

I'm not accepting that. It is not gameplay, it is not natural progression, it is a painful, mind numbing practice for most. And just because some people do it, doesn't mean everyone should need to just for the game to remain consistent in how it always felt.

The bold txt is total nonsense, I'm sorry to have to say. Relying on guild traders was NEVER a requirement as people could farm the required mats. Perhaps If the discussion was "Should non-crafters have to rely more heavily on players with crafting passives more?" then we could talk but it's nothing to do with it. And "why have those passives?", what a silly question. Why did you level them before? For the increased chance. That is all. For the ump-teenth time. Those passives NEVER had anything to do with the ability to gather stuff. In the current scaled system they do, but that changes the sense of natural progression that was present since the release of the game. That is what I have issue with. Why should the system change at this point? When did players not wish to be able to farm level relative nodes? Why did they let players do it in the first place?

So you are arguing that you shouldn't have to put skill points or rather use skill points to achieve better results so ZOS should change it so that you and everyone else in scaled environments can get the same amount of materials.

Why did I put points in, in the first place....to craft, improve, refine, decon, etc at a better rate of return. See, when the scaled DLC came out, the change offered a logical opportunity for existing crafters AND NEW crafters to continue their progress.
If you or anyone wants materials, go after them, but to feel that the game should give you the same results without any sacrifice is silly.

Basically your argument is this....because the vanilla game was linear progression everywhere, it should stay the same for gathering materials via nodes even though the entire DLC is scaled content. Do you hear what you're saying?

You want everyone to get high mats regardless of if it makes sense because "you" want them. It's never been about me and what I want, it's been about you. I and other crafters haven't complained that we needed to use skill points for crafting because we already were. See, it's those who were not using skill points who now think and feel it's unfair....

As another mentioned above, if you want the same experience, go do the work, as there are plenty of skill points out there. That is your issue, you want to use those skills elsewhere or you've not obtained enough skill points. Your issue is something you can resolve in a week or less....just go play using either of the methods I've mentioned which all give you the mats whether it's grinding, gaining more skill points and using them along with leveling crafting or buying them within the game

NewBlacksmurf

Dubhliam wrote: »

The suggestion ZOS gave us to consider is a good one IMO.
Not exactly necessary, but I would not mind it.

HOWEVER!

The ratio of craft scaled vs level scaled nodes should be heavily in favor of crafting. 3:1 for example.

The vast majority of players are max level, and even if they aren't, they will be some day. Max level is the goal of almost every player.
The minority that did put some effort into their craft professions, collected enough skill points and invested them into crafting should have the upper hand in collecting crafting materials.

There are many ways for non crafters to obtain v16 crafting materials already (TV stones, decon dropped items...).

I understand the OPs situation, on the one hand he does craft, and has invested into crafting for one character, but has abandoned leveling that character.
But not being able to farm resource nodes with another character does not prevent OP from crafting.
He just needs to find another way to earn gold to buy materials with.
Or simply put some more effort into that max level character.

You always have choice.

Exactly

WalkingLegacy

MSchroeder wrote: »

bunch of words

Good to hear you're utilizing the PTS for this.

Dagonthir

It appears there are basically two groups of players posting here:

• Those that benefit from the current system. These are the more hard-core crafters that have dedicated crafters that they they like to use to farm materials and sell either the mats or gear created from the mats for presumably higher than pre-scaling prices. Some even have mutliple master crafters so they can switch characters.
• Those that are hurt by the current system. These are the more casual crafters that have maxed out crafting either all on one character or across multiple characters but don't want to have to do it again on their alts. Most of these players just want to enjoy playing the game and get resource nodes while they're out questing, and they don't enjoy farming nodes.

Neither group is going to convince the other group of that they're right, so the decision of what to do is really up to ZOS to determine what type of game they want ESO to be and what crowds they are catering to. In my opinion, they should consider:

• What problem was the node scaling trying to solve?
• How effectively has the solution solved the problem?
• Have there been any unexpected side effects from the solution, and are they good or bad?

We know the answer to the first one, but we'll all have different opinions on the second two. ZOS has the data and analysis to look at the bigger picture rather than just considering input from a handful of people posting in a forum thread. This is just what I think ZOS should consider.

That said, I realize that the proposed solution would enable non-crafters to be able to farm max level crafting nodes as well, although no one in this thread falls into that category. Personally, I think that's valid for people to do because they could do it before the scaling was introduced, but I know there are many people here that have a problem with that. I also want to say that I don't have any problem with scaling crafting nodes to crafting passive in principle, and if ZOS could find a way to enable people to only have to do it once then I'd have no problem with it. The idea of scaling the nodes off of account wide highest passives has been thrown out before, but that idea has been bashed around and even had it suggested that it was somehow the same thing as sharing skill progression across all characters, for all skills (which would be a ridiculous idea). Maybe another new idea would be to allow players to choose which of their characters they want each craft to scale off of. In that sense, it would be as if that character was acting as a sort of player hireling for the crafting character in each profession. I'd have no problem with something like that.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

What makes sense is how it is now. Want to farm mats level up crafting. Simple. Hurts noone except people who want to benefit from the crafting system but dont want to put forth the effort. If you give players a choice of course they will choose the route that hurts the game itself. The game has an economy your ideas would toss the economy into chaos and ruin the market for top tier mats.

So time to spend a few days and 10 points to level up your crafting. Everyone has to do it so it is fair to everyone.

Smileybones

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

What makes sense is how it is now. Want to farm mats level up crafting. Simple. Hurts noone except people who want to benefit from the crafting system but dont want to put forth the effort. If you give players a choice of course they will choose the route that hurts the game itself. The game has an economy your ideas would toss the economy into chaos and ruin the market for top tier mats.

So time to spend a few days and 10 points to level up your crafting. Everyone has to do it so it is fair to everyone.

Can't agree more, yet some people as @NeillMcAttack can't get out of their mind jail:

I take a simple example: my main is actually doing Cadwell Silver in a VR4 area so she's getting VR4 mats. But she's VR11 and needs VR11 mats to get geared. Guess what ? I sell the mats I get and buy the mats I need ! Wow I'm such a genius. Also I'd like to mention that since I usually do every side quest in an area I'm overlevelled since a long time and thus trading mats this way works pretty well.

NeillMcAttack

Smileybones wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

What makes sense is how it is now. Want to farm mats level up crafting. Simple. Hurts noone except people who want to benefit from the crafting system but dont want to put forth the effort. If you give players a choice of course they will choose the route that hurts the game itself. The game has an economy your ideas would toss the economy into chaos and ruin the market for top tier mats.

So time to spend a few days and 10 points to level up your crafting. Everyone has to do it so it is fair to everyone.

Can't agree more, yet some people as @NeillMcAttack can't get out of their mind jail:

I take a simple example: my main is actually doing Cadwell Silver in a VR4 area so she's getting VR4 mats. But she's VR11 and needs VR11 mats to get geared. Guess what ? I sell the mats I get and buy the mats I need ! Wow I'm such a genius. Also I'd like to mention that since I usually do every side quest in an area I'm overlevelled since a long time and thus trading mats this way works pretty well.

So you have just agreed with a point that I have givin counter arguments to numerous times in this same thread so I'm not going to repeat myself again on it.

And to your point, a point I have ALSO givin a rebutle to a number of times in this very thread. You feel that it is fine to force players into different zones to run around in circles to pick up mats instead of doing it naturally the way many always have.

So if you would like to argue WHY it is you think it's an ok change that people should be forced into your particular playstyle, or WHY you feel that only crafting characters should have a much easier access to farmable end level mats in the new zones (which is a complete change from how things always were), or WHY you feel it acceptable to have players that want to play non crafting alts dis-incentiveized to do so, then make the argument, instead of making me repeat myself over and over again.

I'll also say to anyone else that I am NOT repeating myself again. Please just read over the thread. It's actually an excellent thread as it turns out and touches on many different players experiences with the recent change. Thanks.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Its been explained numerous times you just dont like the answer. Fact is if you want to farm top tier mats in the new zones you have to level up your crafting. They arent going to change it I pray because of a couple of whining people on the forums who feel entitled to mats they didnt earn through game play. The game cannot be about handing you everything with no effort. That makes it boring and makes people quit the game.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

If they do change it I want to be able to do vet dungeons solo. Its not fair im being forced to do something I dont want to do. I want all end game gear but Im not going to put a single point into any combat skills. Why again should I be forced into your playstyle? I shouldnt have to actually do the quests to get the stuff. I dont want to fight I want to just get stuff handed to me. Its not fair if you dont.

Smileybones

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

nonsense

What if YOU read what I wrote ? I'm not running in circles in different zones at all: I pick up the mats in the zone I'm by following my player and quest progression and I SELL them. With the gold I BUY what I need.

Is that rocket science to you ?

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Smileybones wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

nonsense

What if YOU read what I wrote ? I'm not running in circles in different zones at all: I pick up the mats in the zone I'm by following my player and quest progression and I SELL them. With the gold I BUY what I need.

Is that rocket science to you ?

Sad part is they can already farm top tier mats in Cyrodill. They want to be able to not only not put any effort into crafting on the character they want to farm with but also want to farm with complete safety. It doesnt work like that. I certainly hope with all the issues facing this game they dont code this change. Its not needed. Its not wanted by the majority and it will cause the market for mats to tank.

NewBlacksmurf

Dagonthir wrote: »

It appears there are basically two groups of players posting here:

• Those that benefit from the current system. These are the more hard-core crafters that have dedicated crafters that they they like to use to farm materials and sell either the mats or gear created from the mats for presumably higher than pre-scaling prices. Some even have mutliple master crafters so they can switch characters.
• Those that are hurt by the current system. These are the more casual crafters that have maxed out crafting either all on one character or across multiple characters but don't want to have to do it again on their alts. Most of these players just want to enjoy playing the game and get resource nodes while they're out questing, and they don't enjoy farming nodes.

Neither group is going to convince the other group of that they're right, so the decision of what to do is really up to ZOS to determine what type of game they want ESO to be and what crowds they are catering to. In my opinion, they should consider:

• What problem was the node scaling trying to solve?
• How effectively has the solution solved the problem?
• Have there been any unexpected side effects from the solution, and are they good or bad?

We know the answer to the first one, but we'll all have different opinions on the second two. ZOS has the data and analysis to look at the bigger picture rather than just considering input from a handful of people posting in a forum thread. This is just what I think ZOS should consider.

That said, I realize that the proposed solution would enable non-crafters to be able to farm max level crafting nodes as well, although no one in this thread falls into that category. Personally, I think that's valid for people to do because they could do it before the scaling was introduced, but I know there are many people here that have a problem with that. I also want to say that I don't have any problem with scaling crafting nodes to crafting passive in principle, and if ZOS could find a way to enable people to only have to do it once then I'd have no problem with it. The idea of scaling the nodes off of account wide highest passives has been thrown out before, but that idea has been bashed around and even had it suggested that it was somehow the same thing as sharing skill progression across all characters, for all skills (which would be a ridiculous idea). Maybe another new idea would be to allow players to choose which of their characters they want each craft to scale off of. In that sense, it would be as if that character was acting as a sort of player hireling for the crafting character in each profession. I'd have no problem with something like that.

Well let's go ahead and put it out there.
NONE of this would be an issue if ZOS would remove VR levels and align the 1-50 with the current materials. Then, everyone could grab nodes in vanilla ESO or in DLC. Then the node scaling could align with char level and the Passives should then provide increased amounts harvested. Prob solved.