Can anyone from ZOS confirm why crafting node scaling was introduced?

Dubhliam

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

[snip] if you want to be able to farm the necessary mats for gear of your level while questing[snip]

Then you should invest into your questing char.
Simple.
You want something - you pay for it. There are a lot of intricate items on sale, you know.
I could level each and every one of my character to be a max crafter in about 30 minutes time (I have 8 chars, 3 of which are already maxed, 1 is only maxed in clothing).

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

[snip]be forced to run circles[snip]

Again... Nothing is required of you.
You just want everything easy...er.
It is already easy to max crafting.

Also, @NewBlacksmurf has a point, if everyone can easily farm the highest mats without leveling the appropriate craft, it will devalue the materials. Which in turn will result into materials you won't bother getting off your horse to gather while questing.

ZOS, stop catering to lazy people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTP2RUD_cL0

DaveMoeDee

Ffastyl wrote: »

...
This, however, creates more competition for nodes which will likely result in a shortage of ingots sooner or later.
...

I think you have this backwards. More people able to harvest top level mats will mean more ingots in Tamriel, not a shortage.

DaveMoeDee

KanedaSyndrome wrote: »

MSchroeder wrote: »

..stuff..

Other suggestions

Perhaps consider making nodes random, with percentages based upon craft skill level / skillpoints spent in the craft's "level skill".

Feels weird that crafting mats are the same all over the zone. Artificial.

That sounds artificial? That is how the world actually is. Certain locations have more of certain metals. Plants grow in certain climates. The zone based nodes would make the most sense if the zones across factions have parallel climates.

NeillMcAttack

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

@jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Without some kind of change to the current system, what we have is the majority of max level material locked behind a passive ability which is supposed to be optional. At which point, in order to reach endgame, crafting becomes mandatory. That is the real slippery slope. When a skill that is intended to be optional, becomes a necessity.

And no, forcing someone into a zone to run around in circles to collect materials is not a natural means of progression.

Your arguments are really not looking at the big picture for a couple of reasons. The first is that you are basically rallying to make crafting mandatory in order to compete, or even participate in end game activities. At which point crafting loses all value and you in turn actually end up with more competition for your materials, or of course, a smaller player base.

Secondly, if high level mats are only to be acquired by max level crafters, your economy literally falls apart, crafters are not only required to craft the gear, but to farm it too?!? Stuff becomes real expensive, real fast, for those without the "optional passives". This kind of standard would actually require a massive overhaul of how gold within the economy is distributed where crafters, who would have infinite amounts of it, and non-crafters, if they still exist at this point, are forced to give every bit of it to crafters.

And that's all besides the point. You never made the choice to level crafting so that you could exclusively farm the highest level mats. You did it so that you could use the refined mats to craft gear. It's simple as that. It is in fact you who is asking for something you didn't work for. Your reward is the crafting not the gathering, stop getting the two mixed up.

High end mats are not locked behind crafting tho...thats the thing you and others are overlooking.
If nothing changes or if the proposed change occurs in the ZOS comment....it doesnt change that the best way to gather high end mats are from breaking down loot. There are ppl who literally run in circles in places only picking up specific loot for breaking down or refining. Crafting levels are not required for either.

There should and has to be significant advantage to using skills and building out crafting. If you're going to get the same stuff as me with no passive skill points then why would anyone use those passives for mats?

Stuff is suppose to become real expensive as thats the whole point of crafting, guild stores and the bid process of traders.
Not attacking you personally but a lot of feedback on this forum is asking for a lot of things for the least amount of input.

In my opinion, that is detrimental to the economy as devaluing the passive skills and increasing the drop rate of materials will drastically lower the buy/sale and eventually end up where everyone has to craft their own stuff because the price will be so low that its not worth the hassle to gather mats, travel to a set crafting place, improve, travel to enchanting place, enchant and then travel to trade.....because if I have all the stuff, then what the value of the crafter?

Fine, one more, but only because you make the strongest case I have seen (sadly, that isn't a GREAT compliment but your competition is lacking).

Unfortunately though, the thinking is very much based in the now, when the proposed changes are coming with a new system.

But to your first point. In which admittedly, it's something I overlooked, deconstruction gives lots of mats but it's very difficult to say it gives more. That is relative to playstyle. For example, levelling my main I focused much more on skyshard and lorebook hunting as I moved through the zones, not fighting and questing, which meant refining yielded more. You know what I mean?

People want independence, that's natural, MMO devs know it, we know it and it's why we have unique looks, loads of different dye's, and especially Crafters. People have no problem going through content that scales with that number above their heads. But when a disparity in access as large as one group having ten times more access to mats, and thus progress, it gives players of a different playstyle a feeling of inadequacy. Especially when the game changes half way through to a system that can only feel like punishment for not doing something that was supposed to be a choice. A choice that never had any bearing on acquiring raw mats to begin with. You never want to push a player into a situation where they have to go back on independant decisions and realize they wasted so much time, and that the end game they were seeking is so far off now that they give up.

At this point I just to say straight up, that guild traders, while they can be very reliable quite often, probably should never be the only option for people. People, especially those with limited means of income (non-crafters), will always feel somewhat cheated. Especially when to some there aren't many they have access to, or they have been saving for that next pack upgrade, or whatever.

Anyway, yes, you are right, if every V16 right now could farm an abundance of V16 mats they become VERY cheap. But you undermine the plans from an MMO dev perspective. Vet 16 gear is supposed to be the most accessible its ever been, right now (it will come back down when those crafting passives, with the current system or the proposed one, get another point). This is the natural development cycle of an MMO. And you haven't considered that the system is changing quite drastically around the same time this change will happen. It will once again be easier to control progression without changing the original formula when Champion Rank is what determines character strength. Not material acquirement, which ONLY (<emphasis on 'only') rewards the PLAYSTYLE of people who level multiple crafters.

And finally, the reward for leveling those (this feels like my tenth time saying this) passives and skills is the ability to craft gear. NOT farm raw materials which you actually DO have more access to, writs and blehbu..blabblabluy........

NeillMcAttack

Dubhliam wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

[snip] if you want to be able to farm the necessary mats for gear of your level while questing[snip]

Then you should invest into your questing char.
Simple.
You want something - you pay for it. There are a lot of intricate items on sale, you know.
I could level each and every one of my character to be a max crafter in about 30 minutes time (I have 8 chars, 3 of which are already maxed, 1 is only maxed in clothing).

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

[snip]be forced to run circles[snip]

Again... Nothing is required of you.
You just want everything easy...er.
It is already easy to max crafting.

Also, @NewBlacksmurf has a point, if everyone can easily farm the highest mats without leveling the appropriate craft, it will devalue the materials. Which in turn will result into materials you won't bother getting off your horse to gather while questing.

ZOS, stop catering to lazy people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTP2RUD_cL0

Dude, Why do you think I should care how many crafters you have? I mean, if you can do it in 30 minutes why should I care. Why bring it up? And let me remind you that players with muliple maxed crafters are the tiniest of minorities in this discussion.

Fair enough, you got me. It's a trick question. You see, you feel that that particular playstyle should be vastly more rewarding than people who see ZERO logical sense in having multiple crafters of the same crafts. But why dude?

And another question? Were you playing when V14 was max? I bet towards the end people found it tough getting off their horses for some nightwood!! Except maybe in the hopes of nirncrux, but that is a different story.

Myxril

Want crafting materials based on character level?
Go to the zone appropriate for your level.

Want crafting materials based on crafting level?
Go to the scaled zones.

If you think scaled zones should base nodes off of your character level, then you should *gasp* go to the leveled zones that already have nodes based on character/zone level.

Nodes scaled to current crafting level alleviates farm traffic in zones that are a specific level range. This also brings traffic to the (two) scaled zones we have.
If a v16 picks up crafting, they're better off going into Wrothgar or Hew's Bane to get their materials than they are at running around in newbie zones to (and I can see the rage now) "ruin the game by stealing farm nodes from noobs".
If a L10 has been doing nothing but crafting and their material needs exceed their leveled zone qualifications, they can go to the scaled areas to actively farm the materials they need while being able to more-or-less survive the zone.


It's perfectly fine how it is now.


Clarification: When I say 'craft level', I refer to the passive associated with any given crafting skill that determines the material you can craft with, not the actual level of said craft.

Ffastyl

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

...
This, however, creates more competition for nodes which will likely result in a shortage of ingots sooner or later.
...

I think you have this backwards. More people able to harvest top level mats will mean more ingots in Tamriel, not a shortage.

I spoke in terms of personal dis/advantages. The more people harvesting nodes, the less there are for myself to harvest. With less to harvest, I refine less materials than I use and run out. The entire post was from the perspective of a selfish player, not a world or market view.

ADarklore

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

If you want to craft then the passive is not optional. You must put points into it if you want to craft. How you can say its somehow optional is mind boggling. You arent forced to farm anything. Too lazy to work crafting yourself you can buy from me. You can go to cyrodill. Tons of options for you. If you want to gather yourself in the new zones then ya you have to put 10 whole points into the skill. Nothing has changed for you you can still farm mats in cyrodill without putitng any effort into crafting.

I think the above bold italic shows the TRUE reason for his disagreement... he is worried about his cash flow pure and simple, not about making the game better for players. Also, his argument that it's "only 10 SPs" but that's 10 SPs PER CRAFTED MATERIAL... so my main who has leveled his crafting skills but does not craft and instead wants to supply mats for a much lower level alt who is maxed at crafting but doesn't have enough SPs for combat skills to venture into areas to farm... with the current system I'm screwed. While my main has blacksmithing, clothing and woodworking maxed, I don't have enough SPs to put into crafting passives. My character has three weapons lines, Werewolf line, Fighters Guild, and working on Legerdemain passives... and even then I don't have enough SPs for all those passives yet either. So while @jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wants to act like it's all about people not wanting to invest SPs into crafting passives, it has more to do with many of us need those SPs for our character's combat development yet would also like the ability to collect mats while we are adventuring on our quests. Why should I go out with my alt when I can simply collect as I'm adventuring?!? That is the point I think many of us are trying to make.

Callous2208

ADarklore wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

If you want to craft then the passive is not optional. You must put points into it if you want to craft. How you can say its somehow optional is mind boggling. You arent forced to farm anything. Too lazy to work crafting yourself you can buy from me. You can go to cyrodill. Tons of options for you. If you want to gather yourself in the new zones then ya you have to put 10 whole points into the skill. Nothing has changed for you you can still farm mats in cyrodill without putitng any effort into crafting.

I think the above bold italic shows the TRUE reason for his disagreement... he is worried about his cash flow pure and simple, not about making the game better for players. Also, his argument that it's "only 10 SPs" but that's 10 SPs PER CRAFTED MATERIAL... so my main who has leveled his crafting skills but does not craft and instead wants to supply mats for a much lower level alt who is maxed at crafting but doesn't have enough SPs for combat skills to venture into areas to farm... with the current system I'm screwed. While my main has blacksmithing, clothing and woodworking maxed, I don't have enough SPs to put into crafting passives. My character has three weapons lines, Werewolf line, Fighters Guild, and working on Legerdemain passives... and even then I don't have enough SPs for all those passives yet either. So while @jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wants to act like it's all about people not wanting to invest SPs into crafting passives, it has more to do with many of us need those SPs for our character's combat development yet would also like the ability to collect mats while we are adventuring on our quests. Why should I go out with my alt when I can simply collect as I'm adventuring?!? That is the point I think many of us are trying to make.

If your main does not have enough sp's at this point, you've purposely gimped yourself by not completing the content and getting the shards/sp's. I can see your point with the alt thing though. A convenience issue at best. But even if this is his intention, is it wrong for him to want to keep his crafting revenue as is, at the expense of you having to get a few readily available sp's? In essence you are implying that he is wrong for utilizing and enjoying what the game currently offers, because it infringes on your ability to voluntarily not level/get sp's without consequence.

Myxril

ADarklore wrote: »

so my main who has leveled his crafting skills but does not craft and instead wants to supply mats for a much lower level alt who is maxed at crafting but doesn't have enough SPs for combat skills to venture into areas to farm...

That's when you take the alt into the current scaled areas. That toon will scale up to v15, be able to survive the zone, and farm mats according to their craft progress. No need for your higher level non-crafter to farm mats for them.

with the current system I'm screwed.

No, you aren't. The current system is best for you, as explained above.

ADarklore

Myxril wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

so my main who has leveled his crafting skills but does not craft and instead wants to supply mats for a much lower level alt who is maxed at crafting but doesn't have enough SPs for combat skills to venture into areas to farm...

That's when you take the alt into the current scaled areas. That toon will scale up to v15, be able to survive the zone, and farm mats according to their craft progress. No need for your higher level non-crafter to farm mats for them.

with the current system I'm screwed.

No, you aren't. The current system is best for you, as explained above.

Actually, this would be a problem because I don't have enough SPs on my crafter for any combat skills... all my SPs are into crafting... which means if I respec'd to get SPs for combat skills, I'd lose the ability to have crafting skills passives maxed to receive the highest level mats.

ADarklore

Callous2208 wrote: »

If your main does not have enough sp's at this point, you've purposely gimped yourself by not completing the content and getting the shards/sp's. I can see your point with the alt thing though. A convenience issue at best. But even if this is his intention, is it wrong for him to want to keep his crafting revenue as is, at the expense of you having to get a few readily available sp's? In essence you are implying that he is wrong for utilizing and enjoying what the game currently offers, because it infringes on your ability to voluntarily not level/get sp's without consequence.

My main is only VR4 and I haven't even been through Cadwell's, so no, I don't have enough SPs yet... perhaps by VR16 after venturing through Cadwell's, but not now. However, this precludes me from farming Orsinium or other DLCs with restrictive nodes because, while I have the skills maxed, I don't have the SPs for passives. Considering the awful drop rate of Rubedo leather (I heard that rate improved recently but not sure) and the mat requirement to craft VR16 gear... it would be nice to be able to farm now so I'll have enough by the time I reach VR16.

So with that being said, it kind of makes your 'readily available sp's' into perspective; not so readily at VR4. And yes, I do think it's wrong for him to want to maintain an exclusionistic point of view simply to maintain his income while arguing at that because he's decided to invest so heavily in crafting that should be rewarded while other players who opt to focus on character development should be punished. This game was meant to be able to be played how you want, and right now the current system punishes players who invest in character development and want to maintain a lower level alt for their crafting.

Callous2208

ADarklore wrote: »

Myxril wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

so my main who has leveled his crafting skills but does not craft and instead wants to supply mats for a much lower level alt who is maxed at crafting but doesn't have enough SPs for combat skills to venture into areas to farm...

That's when you take the alt into the current scaled areas. That toon will scale up to v15, be able to survive the zone, and farm mats according to their craft progress. No need for your higher level non-crafter to farm mats for them.

with the current system I'm screwed.

No, you aren't. The current system is best for you, as explained above.

Actually, this would be a problem because I don't have enough SPs on my crafter for any combat skills... all my SPs are into crafting... which means if I respec'd to get SPs for combat skills, I'd lose the ability to have crafting skills passives maxed to receive the highest level mats.

Right, but as I said earlier, this is your choice not to grab a few skill points. You are implying the current system, and those who support it, are selfish and wrong because you may have to take the time to grab these skill points you voluntarily opted out of?

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

ADarklore wrote: »

Myxril wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

so my main who has leveled his crafting skills but does not craft and instead wants to supply mats for a much lower level alt who is maxed at crafting but doesn't have enough SPs for combat skills to venture into areas to farm...

That's when you take the alt into the current scaled areas. That toon will scale up to v15, be able to survive the zone, and farm mats according to their craft progress. No need for your higher level non-crafter to farm mats for them.

with the current system I'm screwed.

No, you aren't. The current system is best for you, as explained above.

Actually, this would be a problem because I don't have enough SPs on my crafter for any combat skills... all my SPs are into crafting... which means if I respec'd to get SPs for combat skills, I'd lose the ability to have crafting skills passives maxed to receive the highest level mats.

Go out earn more points. I dont understand what you want. I have a VR10 crafter I have combat skills maxxed and crafting skills maxxed. There is no reason why you cant do it too.

Myxril

ADarklore wrote: »

Myxril wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

so my main who has leveled his crafting skills but does not craft and instead wants to supply mats for a much lower level alt who is maxed at crafting but doesn't have enough SPs for combat skills to venture into areas to farm...

That's when you take the alt into the current scaled areas. That toon will scale up to v15, be able to survive the zone, and farm mats according to their craft progress. No need for your higher level non-crafter to farm mats for them.

with the current system I'm screwed.

No, you aren't. The current system is best for you, as explained above.

Actually, this would be a problem because I don't have enough SPs on my crafter for any combat skills... all my SPs are into crafting... which means if I respec'd to get SPs for combat skills, I'd lose the ability to have crafting skills passives maxed to receive the highest level mats.

It would be -your- problem, not one that the devs would need to cater to. Go run around in Silver/Gold and pick up all of the skyshards. Problem solved.

Also, just because your toon doesn't have combat skills doesn't mean they'd fall over dead. It just means you'd suck at grinding the mobs in the scaled zone. Since you're not there to fight, your whole "b-b-b-buuuuut" about SPs is entirely irrelevant.
You could still effectively run around and farm nodes scaled appropriately to your crafting progress without worrying about getting 1-shot all the time.

Callous2208

ADarklore wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

If your main does not have enough sp's at this point, you've purposely gimped yourself by not completing the content and getting the shards/sp's. I can see your point with the alt thing though. A convenience issue at best. But even if this is his intention, is it wrong for him to want to keep his crafting revenue as is, at the expense of you having to get a few readily available sp's? In essence you are implying that he is wrong for utilizing and enjoying what the game currently offers, because it infringes on your ability to voluntarily not level/get sp's without consequence.

My main is only VR4 and I haven't even been through Cadwell's, so no, I don't have enough SPs yet... perhaps by VR16 after venturing through Cadwell's, but not now. However, this precludes me from farming Orsinium or other DLCs with restrictive nodes because, while I have the skills maxed, I don't have the SPs for passives. Considering the awful drop rate of Rubedo leather (I heard that rate improved recently but not sure) and the mat requirement to craft VR16 gear... it would be nice to be able to farm now so I'll have enough by the time I reach VR16.

So with that being said, it kind of makes your 'readily available sp's' into perspective; not so readily at VR4. And yes, I do think it's wrong for him to want to maintain an exclusionistic point of view simply to maintain his income while arguing at that because he's decided to invest so heavily in crafting that should be rewarded while other players who opt to focus on character development should be punished. This game was meant to be able to be played how you want, and right now the current system punishes players who invest in character development and want to maintain a lower level alt for their crafting.

You are ignoring the fact that it's not an either/or option. You too may focus character development and skills as the amount of sp's in pve alone, allow for this. You have chosen not to set foot in Silver and Gold. Other's made the choice to do so, and retrieve again, readily available sp's. Your entire argument here is that it is wrong for him to be, or think he should be rewarded for his time and energy spent focusing his crafting. While it is okay and righteous for you to be rewarded and on equal keel, while opting out of such things. No one has been "punished." You are not benefiting from skills you never put in the time to get, and he had to spend more time getting extra skills to make up for the ones he put in crafting. Everyone had a choice, with equal and appropriate consequences.

ADarklore

Callous2208 wrote: »

Right, but as I said earlier, this is your choice not to grab a few skill points. You are implying the current system, and those who support it, are selfish and wrong because you may have to take the time to grab these skill points you voluntarily opted out of?

Um, my crafter is level 23... he is a DK, my very first character, who I stopped playing because I didn't want to continue with that class. However, prior to the node scaling, I invested heavily in this character to make him my crafter... including buying motifs, research, etc. Now, in order for me to farm with him now to get the highest level mats, I'd have to go back and level him up- again- I have no desire to play a DK... and until ZOS allows me to change classes, this character is not going any further. It is for this reason that I want my main to be able to collect mats while adventuring so I can provide them to my crafter who is so fully invested into crafting.

Myxril

ADarklore wrote: »

Now, in order for me to farm with him now to get the highest level mats, I'd have to go into one of the scaled areas to farm nodes scaled to his crafting progress while maintaining survivability against the mobs in said scaled zone

Fixed that for you.

Callous2208

ADarklore wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

Right, but as I said earlier, this is your choice not to grab a few skill points. You are implying the current system, and those who support it, are selfish and wrong because you may have to take the time to grab these skill points you voluntarily opted out of?

Um, my crafter is level 23... he is a DK, my very first character, who I stopped playing because I didn't want to continue with that class. However, prior to the node scaling, I invested heavily in this character to make him my crafter... including buying motifs, research, etc. Now, in order for me to farm with him now to get the highest level mats, I'd have to go back and level him up- again- I have no desire to play a DK... and until ZOS allows me to change classes, this character is not going any further. It is for this reason that I want my main to be able to collect mats while adventuring so I can provide them to my crafter who is so fully invested into crafting.

You can explain the "why" you feel this way all day. Your issue still boils down to a personal choice not to play and level this character. Why you don't want to play him is not important. You're campaigning for a change so that it makes things more convenient for the playstyle you chose, to hell with those who chose differently.

Taleof2Cities

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Dude, Why do you think I should care how many crafters you have? I mean, if you can do it in 30 minutes why should I care. Why bring it up? And let me remind you that players with muliple maxed crafters are the tiniest of minorities in this discussion.

@NeillMcAttack , you seem vocal about this issue ... which is great. Definitely want to encourage more discussion and debate where needed.

I've linked the 15-page discussion in PTS on craft node scaling:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/222451/official-feedback-thread-for-crafting-node-scaling/p1

Main question is why weren't you posting more in this discussion before the current node scaling system went Live? If it wasn't an issue back at the beginning of March when Thieves Guild came out, why is it an issue now?

NewBlacksmurf

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

@jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Without some kind of change to the current system, what we have is the majority of max level material locked behind a passive ability which is supposed to be optional. At which point, in order to reach endgame, crafting becomes mandatory. That is the real slippery slope. When a skill that is intended to be optional, becomes a necessity.

And no, forcing someone into a zone to run around in circles to collect materials is not a natural means of progression.

Your arguments are really not looking at the big picture for a couple of reasons. The first is that you are basically rallying to make crafting mandatory in order to compete, or even participate in end game activities. At which point crafting loses all value and you in turn actually end up with more competition for your materials, or of course, a smaller player base.

Secondly, if high level mats are only to be acquired by max level crafters, your economy literally falls apart, crafters are not only required to craft the gear, but to farm it too?!? Stuff becomes real expensive, real fast, for those without the "optional passives". This kind of standard would actually require a massive overhaul of how gold within the economy is distributed where crafters, who would have infinite amounts of it, and non-crafters, if they still exist at this point, are forced to give every bit of it to crafters.

And that's all besides the point. You never made the choice to level crafting so that you could exclusively farm the highest level mats. You did it so that you could use the refined mats to craft gear. It's simple as that. It is in fact you who is asking for something you didn't work for. Your reward is the crafting not the gathering, stop getting the two mixed up.

High end mats are not locked behind crafting tho...thats the thing you and others are overlooking.
If nothing changes or if the proposed change occurs in the ZOS comment....it doesnt change that the best way to gather high end mats are from breaking down loot. There are ppl who literally run in circles in places only picking up specific loot for breaking down or refining. Crafting levels are not required for either.

There should and has to be significant advantage to using skills and building out crafting. If you're going to get the same stuff as me with no passive skill points then why would anyone use those passives for mats?

Stuff is suppose to become real expensive as thats the whole point of crafting, guild stores and the bid process of traders.
Not attacking you personally but a lot of feedback on this forum is asking for a lot of things for the least amount of input.

In my opinion, that is detrimental to the economy as devaluing the passive skills and increasing the drop rate of materials will drastically lower the buy/sale and eventually end up where everyone has to craft their own stuff because the price will be so low that its not worth the hassle to gather mats, travel to a set crafting place, improve, travel to enchanting place, enchant and then travel to trade.....because if I have all the stuff, then what the value of the crafter?

Fine, one more, but only because you make the strongest case I have seen (sadly, that isn't a GREAT compliment but your competition is lacking).

Unfortunately though, the thinking is very much based in the now, when the proposed changes are coming with a new system.

But to your first point. In which admittedly, it's something I overlooked, deconstruction gives lots of mats but it's very difficult to say it gives more. That is relative to playstyle. For example, levelling my main I focused much more on skyshard and lorebook hunting as I moved through the zones, not fighting and questing, which meant refining yielded more. You know what I mean?

People want independence, that's natural, MMO devs know it, we know it and it's why we have unique looks, loads of different dye's, and especially Crafters. People have no problem going through content that scales with that number above their heads. But when a disparity in access as large as one group having ten times more access to mats, and thus progress, it gives players of a different playstyle a feeling of inadequacy. Especially when the game changes half way through to a system that can only feel like punishment for not doing something that was supposed to be a choice. A choice that never had any bearing on acquiring raw mats to begin with. You never want to push a player into a situation where they have to go back on independant decisions and realize they wasted so much time, and that the end game they were seeking is so far off now that they give up.

At this point I just to say straight up, that guild traders, while they can be very reliable quite often, probably should never be the only option for people. People, especially those with limited means of income (non-crafters), will always feel somewhat cheated. Especially when to some there aren't many they have access to, or they have been saving for that next pack upgrade, or whatever.

Anyway, yes, you are right, if every V16 right now could farm an abundance of V16 mats they become VERY cheap. But you undermine the plans from an MMO dev perspective. Vet 16 gear is supposed to be the most accessible its ever been, right now (it will come back down when those crafting passives, with the current system or the proposed one, get another point). This is the natural development cycle of an MMO. And you haven't considered that the system is changing quite drastically around the same time this change will happen. It will once again be easier to control progression without changing the original formula when Champion Rank is what determines character strength. Not material acquirement, which ONLY (<emphasis on 'only') rewards the PLAYSTYLE of people who level multiple crafters.

And finally, the reward for leveling those (this feels like my tenth time saying this) passives and skills is the ability to craft gear. NOT farm raw materials which you actually DO have more access to, writs and blehbu..blabblabluy........

Just commenting on deconstruction giving more.
If you play the game and are questing, running dungeons, doing dailies, doing grinds, etc. these will always provide more materials once deconstructed especially if you only pick up things worth deconstructing compared to running around grabbing nodes.

Nodes require at least 10 to refine into materials and in most cases, you have odd amounts.
What I teach and suggest to non-crafters is if you want high end mats....go run circles in Orsinium public dungeons and loot only the enchants and items that can be decon to produce mats. With 1 pt in the passive you'll have far more materials than anyone farming nodes simply because you can pull 4-10 mobs at a time and do so non-stop for hours literally solo or grouped while farming nodes is a one person thing with long respawn timers that require us to share nodes.

There is a reason ZOS keeps nerfing grind spots and loot tables in grinding areas.


Now on the independence topic....I completely agree that many players want more freedom but because we are all required to play online via a mega server all together, removing the requirement to rely on guild traders, and crafters who use Passives to gather stuff, and make stuff then will make it 100% pointless to have a crafting line. Honestly, if they make it so anyone can farm any material, then why have those Passives. Just refund the skill points because then only the tier passive matters. See it's not just the crafting tiers, but also the other Passives for tempers, improvement, refining, decon and mailed mats.

It may sound selfish even, but doing the suggested change will have a large impact and it's the equivalent to how ZOS reduced the effectiveness of Templar healing. When you make everything so that anyone can do anything as good as another, there is no point in working for anything so people begin to care less, become rude, short and unwilling to help others. The long term impact is an MMORPG like game that's just solo play online.....basically pointless

Ffastyl

Having completed Cadwell's Gold and acquired all skyshards, completed all group challenges and all group dungeons in the base game, I have almost 300 skill points. I have all 6 crafts maxed out, all 3 class lines, 2 weapon lines, 2 armor lines, 1 guild line and a couple dozen more dispersed amongst other lines. So please drop any "skill point shortage" arguments. As stated over and over again, the skill points are there - it falls on you to claim them.

As to the "play how you want" argument brought up so many times in any debate regarding playstyles, it is a malleable statement that can be suited to anyone's needs. In other words, useless. "Play how you want" generally means allowing the greatest number of playstyles to be viable, but the degree to which each playstyle should be dis/advantaged varies from person to person. Often times the ones bringing up the "play how you want" argument do so in the name of reducing effort required to succeed at the game, whether they realize this is their request or not. By the very same "play how you want" argument, I should be able to achieve 30,000 Magicka, 30,000 Stamina, 35,000 Health, 4,000 Weapon and Spell Damage and 3,000 Recovery in all stats while wearing full platemail, meaning at least 20,000 Armor as well.

In a competitive multiplayer game, there needs to be balance. Variety takes backseat. Balance entails tradeoffs and it is the Devs' decision to decide those tradeoffs and the players' position to determine if the tradeoffs are appropriate. Heavy Armor trades resource management and offensive power for defensive power. I may have a base of 20,000 Armor, but my Weapon/Spell Damage is at or under 2,000 and I have 11,000 Magicka, 19,000 Stamina and 22,000 Health. Through use of equipment sets I can reach 2,000 Health and Stamina Recovery and 1,100 Magicka Recovery. But my cost reduction and offense are still null.

The tradeoff debated here is whether players who do not acquire the skill points to invest in crafting or decide not to invest in crafting should be disadvantaged in finding resources useable to said players.

Keep that in mind.

Myxril

Ffastyl wrote: »

The tradeoff debated here is whether players who do not acquire the skill points to invest in crafting or decide not to invest in crafting should be disadvantaged in finding resources useable to said players.

Keep that in mind.

There wouldn't be any disadvantage in finding resources usable by said players; the nodes already exist within their level-appropriate zones.

Given that SP is readily available to a large extent, this literally boils down to:

Reward players for actively leveling a craft (and its passive) by scaling nodes for them to farm outside of normal zones.
Reward players for wanting to farm material for their current level by scaling nodes for them to farm outside of normal zones.

Promote crafting while removing shifting craft mat farming from normal zones.
Facilitate farming & selling while craft mat farming can easily be done in level equivalent normal zones.
-- If the intent isn't to sell materials, as stated plentifully already, level-appropriate zones already exist with level-corresponding material nodes.

I'll go with the first option, what we currently have in place.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

I have to wonder also with everything going on with the game this is really what they plan on spending time developing? Assign this guy to bug fixing instead ZOS.

Pseudolo

MSchroeder wrote: »

Let us know what you think of this proposed change! We’re hoping to use the PTS of a major Update to test this, too, so you’ll have a chance to sound off then as well.

I'm favorable to this change. I have only one vet 16 character but many crafters, and I usually explore higher areas only with mi higher level character. Since I see hew's bane and orsinium as endgame, I'll never go there with my crafting low level characters, and I'm sick to death to find jute, raw hide and maple in a vet 16 area with my vet 16 character only because he has chosen a different profession.
The system, as it currently is, is penalizing everyone who chose cooking and alchemy, because they'll never find mats for their level.
What if you needed a vet 16 set piece crafted for you? Your only solution would be to buy the mats because you don't have the skills to craft it.
I don't like it one bit.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

It doesnt penalize you. You can have more crafting skills. You only need level it up and put 10 points into it. Whats stopping you from leveling up say blacksmith and putting 10 points into it? I did it on my cook. What it penalizes is people who want to get the benefits of having max level crafting skills without leveling them up.

Dubhliam

Why am I under the impression that everyone thinks they NEED to craft?

It is a personal choice to become a crafter.

NeillMcAttack

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Dude, Why do you think I should care how many crafters you have? I mean, if you can do it in 30 minutes why should I care. Why bring it up? And let me remind you that players with muliple maxed crafters are the tiniest of minorities in this discussion.

@NeillMcAttack , you seem vocal about this issue ... which is great. Definitely want to encourage more discussion and debate where needed.

I've linked the 15-page discussion in PTS on craft node scaling:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/222451/official-feedback-thread-for-crafting-node-scaling/p1

Main question is why weren't you posting more in this discussion before the current node scaling system went Live? If it wasn't an issue back at the beginning of March when Thieves Guild came out, why is it an issue now?

Because I don't have access to the PTS, and I simply didn't see this change having this great an effect on my enjoyment of playing new content. It genuinely caught me off-guard. I was honestly really looking forward to playing and progressing my Stam DK in this new content, but now when i play him I feel as if I may as well just wait a few months when the proposed change occurs and he will be able to progress more naturally the same way I've always enjoyed the game.

snorlockb16_ESO

ADarklore wrote: »

Um, my crafter is level 23... he is a DK, my very first character, who I stopped playing because I didn't want to continue with that class. However, prior to the node scaling, I invested heavily in this character to make him my crafter... including buying motifs, research, etc. Now, in order for me to farm with him now to get the highest level mats, I'd have to go back and level him up- again- I have no desire to play a DK... and until ZOS allows me to change classes, this character is not going any further. It is for this reason that I want my main to be able to collect mats while adventuring so I can provide them to my crafter who is so fully invested into crafting.

If your level 23 crafter is only being used for crafting, you don't need mats at that level, you don't need to craft gear for him. Your main CAN gather mats at their own level while adventuring. You don't have a problem.

Don't have enough skill points? Play the game and get some.

Don't like spending money paying guild crafters? Then you are going to have to spend money respecting your skill points ONCE IN A WHILE when you need new gear. If you are v16 you don't need to make new gear every day. If you are leveling you can grind wearing loot. You can get sets from loot. There are plenty of options.

Every complaint you have comes down to not wanting to put any effort into crafting. You don't want to seek out the skill points and you want to just gather mats as you go. No cost, no effort.

The game is designed so that crafting either takes effort on your part, or takes gold to pay someone.

NeillMcAttack

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

@jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Without some kind of change to the current system, what we have is the majority of max level material locked behind a passive ability which is supposed to be optional. At which point, in order to reach endgame, crafting becomes mandatory. That is the real slippery slope. When a skill that is intended to be optional, becomes a necessity.

And no, forcing someone into a zone to run around in circles to collect materials is not a natural means of progression.

Your arguments are really not looking at the big picture for a couple of reasons. The first is that you are basically rallying to make crafting mandatory in order to compete, or even participate in end game activities. At which point crafting loses all value and you in turn actually end up with more competition for your materials, or of course, a smaller player base.

Secondly, if high level mats are only to be acquired by max level crafters, your economy literally falls apart, crafters are not only required to craft the gear, but to farm it too?!? Stuff becomes real expensive, real fast, for those without the "optional passives". This kind of standard would actually require a massive overhaul of how gold within the economy is distributed where crafters, who would have infinite amounts of it, and non-crafters, if they still exist at this point, are forced to give every bit of it to crafters.

And that's all besides the point. You never made the choice to level crafting so that you could exclusively farm the highest level mats. You did it so that you could use the refined mats to craft gear. It's simple as that. It is in fact you who is asking for something you didn't work for. Your reward is the crafting not the gathering, stop getting the two mixed up.

High end mats are not locked behind crafting tho...thats the thing you and others are overlooking.
If nothing changes or if the proposed change occurs in the ZOS comment....it doesnt change that the best way to gather high end mats are from breaking down loot. There are ppl who literally run in circles in places only picking up specific loot for breaking down or refining. Crafting levels are not required for either.

There should and has to be significant advantage to using skills and building out crafting. If you're going to get the same stuff as me with no passive skill points then why would anyone use those passives for mats?

Stuff is suppose to become real expensive as thats the whole point of crafting, guild stores and the bid process of traders.
Not attacking you personally but a lot of feedback on this forum is asking for a lot of things for the least amount of input.

In my opinion, that is detrimental to the economy as devaluing the passive skills and increasing the drop rate of materials will drastically lower the buy/sale and eventually end up where everyone has to craft their own stuff because the price will be so low that its not worth the hassle to gather mats, travel to a set crafting place, improve, travel to enchanting place, enchant and then travel to trade.....because if I have all the stuff, then what the value of the crafter?

Fine, one more, but only because you make the strongest case I have seen (sadly, that isn't a GREAT compliment but your competition is lacking).

Unfortunately though, the thinking is very much based in the now, when the proposed changes are coming with a new system.

But to your first point. In which admittedly, it's something I overlooked, deconstruction gives lots of mats but it's very difficult to say it gives more. That is relative to playstyle. For example, levelling my main I focused much more on skyshard and lorebook hunting as I moved through the zones, not fighting and questing, which meant refining yielded more. You know what I mean?

People want independence, that's natural, MMO devs know it, we know it and it's why we have unique looks, loads of different dye's, and especially Crafters. People have no problem going through content that scales with that number above their heads. But when a disparity in access as large as one group having ten times more access to mats, and thus progress, it gives players of a different playstyle a feeling of inadequacy. Especially when the game changes half way through to a system that can only feel like punishment for not doing something that was supposed to be a choice. A choice that never had any bearing on acquiring raw mats to begin with. You never want to push a player into a situation where they have to go back on independant decisions and realize they wasted so much time, and that the end game they were seeking is so far off now that they give up.

At this point I just to say straight up, that guild traders, while they can be very reliable quite often, probably should never be the only option for people. People, especially those with limited means of income (non-crafters), will always feel somewhat cheated. Especially when to some there aren't many they have access to, or they have been saving for that next pack upgrade, or whatever.

Anyway, yes, you are right, if every V16 right now could farm an abundance of V16 mats they become VERY cheap. But you undermine the plans from an MMO dev perspective. Vet 16 gear is supposed to be the most accessible its ever been, right now (it will come back down when those crafting passives, with the current system or the proposed one, get another point). This is the natural development cycle of an MMO. And you haven't considered that the system is changing quite drastically around the same time this change will happen. It will once again be easier to control progression without changing the original formula when Champion Rank is what determines character strength. Not material acquirement, which ONLY (<emphasis on 'only') rewards the PLAYSTYLE of people who level multiple crafters.

And finally, the reward for leveling those (this feels like my tenth time saying this) passives and skills is the ability to craft gear. NOT farm raw materials which you actually DO have more access to, writs and blehbu..blabblabluy........

Just commenting on deconstruction giving more.
If you play the game and are questing, running dungeons, doing dailies, doing grinds, etc. these will always provide more materials once deconstructed especially if you only pick up things worth deconstructing compared to running around grabbing nodes.

Nodes require at least 10 to refine into materials and in most cases, you have odd amounts.
What I teach and suggest to non-crafters is if you want high end mats....go run circles in Orsinium public dungeons and loot only the enchants and items that can be decon to produce mats. With 1 pt in the passive you'll have far more materials than anyone farming nodes simply because you can pull 4-10 mobs at a time and do so non-stop for hours literally solo or grouped while farming nodes is a one person thing with long respawn timers that require us to share nodes.

There is a reason ZOS keeps nerfing grind spots and loot tables in grinding areas.


Now on the independence topic....I completely agree that many players want more freedom but because we are all required to play online via a mega server all together, removing the requirement to rely on guild traders, and crafters who use Passives to gather stuff, and make stuff then will make it 100% pointless to have a crafting line. Honestly, if they make it so anyone can farm any material, then why have those Passives. Just refund the skill points because then only the tier passive matters. See it's not just the crafting tiers, but also the other Passives for tempers, improvement, refining, decon and mailed mats.

It may sound selfish even, but doing the suggested change will have a large impact and it's the equivalent to how ZOS reduced the effectiveness of Templar healing. When you make everything so that anyone can do anything as good as another, there is no point in working for anything so people begin to care less, become rude, short and unwilling to help others. The long term impact is an MMORPG like game that's just solo play online.....basically pointless

Again you are arguing that people having the same natural access to the mats of their level makes crafting less valuable. Sure, with the current scaling from passives it does make it more valuable, but crafting and the ability to harvest relative mats was NEVER a part of the equation until now. Your argument is basically, since this change suits me and players with multiple crafters then happy days. And your only thought to players wanting to enjoy the game the same way they always did is, oh well, they should have to go and RUN AROUND IN CIRCLES deconstructing stuff for the game to feel the same way it always did.

I'm not accepting that. It is not gameplay, it is not natural progression, it is a painful, mind numbing practice for most. And just because some people do it, doesn't mean everyone should need to just for the game to remain consistent in how it always felt.

The bold txt is total nonsense, I'm sorry to have to say. Relying on guild traders was NEVER a requirement as people could farm the required mats. Perhaps If the discussion was "Should non-crafters have to rely more heavily on players with crafting passives more?" then we could talk but it's nothing to do with it. And "why have those passives?", what a silly question. Why did you level them before? For the increased chance. That is all. For the ump-teenth time. Those passives NEVER had anything to do with the ability to gather stuff. In the current scaled system they do, but that changes the sense of natural progression that was present since the release of the game. That is what I have issue with. Why should the system change at this point? When did players not wish to be able to farm level relative nodes? Why did they let players do it in the first place?