Can anyone from ZOS confirm why crafting node scaling was introduced?

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Previously the zones didnt scale so its really not relevant to this conversation to keep bringing up how the zones that do NOT scale work. The scaling of zones also a huge change right? Which means for those zones ONLY there had to be a change in how the materials were found. You still have access to goods in a multitude of ways. The only difference being if you want rewarded for crafting you have to spend a rather small amount of time and even small percentage of your points to farm those mats.

Saying that the in game economy is some kind of scam in also ludicrous. Come on people are allowed to sell things. If you let anyone farm the mats with no effort or any time spent then it will cause crafters who did spend that time to be useless. This change happened with orisinium its nothing new. i never see anyone complain in the game itself about how the nodes work.

NBrookus

Leiloni wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

MSchroeder wrote: »

We introduced scaled crafting resource nodes with the intent of making sure anyone could find useful crafting materials when they went to a scaled zone, such as Orsinium or Hew’s Bane.

However, since then, we’ve been monitoring feedback on scaled resources, and we’re actually looking at changing them slightly in the future. Currently, scaled nodes are based solely on your crafting passives; in the future, we’re looking at changing them to be split between your crafting passives, or your character level. We’re hoping that this helps both those characters who are leveling up naturally, and high-level characters who never craft, while still making sure that everyone can find the materials they need for both “the best you can craft” and “the best you can wear”. This seems a good opportunity to open up discussion of this potential change, and see what you all think of it.

...

Let us know what you think of this proposed change! We’re hoping to use the PTS of a major Update to test this, too, so you’ll have a chance to sound off then as well.

First, thanks for chiming in here, @MSchroeder.

First, top tier mats were stupidly hard to get (for everyone) because of the mixed drop rate and artificially inflated quantity of mats required for V16 gear. Mats were insanely expensive to buy and far too difficult to acquire. This annoyed everyone, crafters and non-crafters alike.

With the introduction of TG, we got some relief with the ruby mat node, but now we have to go farm or buy void mats for writs.

I think I'm confused in regards to your point of availability of Voidstone vs Rubedite for writs. They're both easy to get. If you want to gather Voidstone, go to the appropriate VR8+ leveling zones. They are all over those zones. If you want Rubedite, a max crafter can go to Wrothgar or Hew's Bane and get them there. You now have a guaranteed place to get every piece of ore you need. I expect the price for Rubedite to go down now that it's so easy to get. Anyone that doesn't want to put a few points into crafting passives to gather those themselves can just buy them cheaply off of a guild store. Time spent specializing in something should matter and when the item is so easy to get, it's not a burden on the player's wallet anyway. It just becomes a time vs money scenario, both of which are easy options.

I don't disagree at all. It is an annoyance that now I have to specifically set aside time to go farm lower level mats in another zone to fill top tier writs, but it's an annoyance specifically with the writs, not the node scaling. It's not difficult to get void mats at all. And it is certainly preferable to the pre-TG situation where I farmed 7 or 8 stacks of void mats in Wrothgar to every stack of ruby mats.

Leiloni

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Leiloni wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Leiloni wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

alvehyannab14_ESO wrote: »

Bob, can go to level adjusted zones for the mats he needs. Two to chose from. Leveling up to the point of being able to go to those places isn't too much of a hardship.

The problem is Bob will only get the V16 mats 50% of the time instead of getting them 100% of the time, which is how it works currently. So even though veteran ranks are finally going away very soon, and we need to gather hundreds of rubedite ingots/hide/ancestor silk etc for each individual V16 item, we would still have to go back and grind up all our crafting alts to V16.

This would discourage some of us from continuing to play until the Dark Brotherhood update boosts all these alts to max level anyways.

Except once VR ranks are removed, we'll have to level all of our crafting alts to level 50 in order for them to be max. From how I understand it, CP will be the new VR levels in terms of gear acquisition. So sure you'll be "max level" at 50, but you won't be able to wear V16 gear until you get 160 CP. But before 50, you'll be wearing gear for whatever level you are. The removal of VR doesn't mean my level 22 Blacksmithing alt will suddenly be able to wear and gather V16 mats. It means once she's level 50, she'll be able to gather those V16 mats since my main has so many CP.

You wont need to level your alts. The new zones scale your level. Where do you guys get this info? You need to level up your crafting level not your actual level. In the new zones if your say blacksmith passive is at 10 you will see only top tier nodes in the scaled areas. The non scaled areas there are no V16 non scaled areas. So thats pointless to even discuss.

You need to catch up on the discussion. ZOS posted a suggestion that they may change the way this works in the future for scaled nodes. Their idea is that it would be 50/50. Half the time you'd see nodes scaled to crafting level and half the time you'd see it scaled to player level. I think it's a terrible idea and I posted a few posts up why. But the post you quoted was saying, IF they went through with this change to 50/50, that's how it would work in the future once VR ranks are removed.

Here's the dev post:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2815064#Comment_2815064

Ive been involved since the very first post. That quote is from THIS thread. Their idea is what we are debating and its flawed. So we are asking them not to do it. He very clearly says these changes would only apply to scaled areas and NOT anywhere else. So I dont know what exactly you want me to catch up on here.

Yes but all V16 nodes are in scaled areas, so the only way to get them would be to deal with the 50/50 split. That's a huge issue.

Taleof2Cities

Leiloni wrote: »

Yes but all V16 nodes are in scaled areas, so the only way to get them would be to deal with the 50/50 split. That's a huge issue.

Not entirely true.

Scaled areas only have V16 nodes, yes, provided you're proficient in that crafting skill passive.

However, you can still get raw or refined V16 mats through deconstruction of V16 equipment, killing V16 mobs, purchasing through the Imperial City Tel Var vendor, or trading/purchasing through other players and guildstores.

With the variety of other outlets out there, my opinion is that the current node scaling is fine ... same as yours.

Leiloni

Spearshard wrote: »

So here's the thing. We have james, who if I am correct, you use crafting as a means to do daily writs on all your toons, and as a way to farm high level mats and sell mats and armor. You, and many others I would wager who support the system as it is now probably had maxed your crafters on your toon's for specifically that purpose. When the scaling change went live, happy day, high level mats, and as many people leveled one crafter and only see worthless jute and iron, pass it by leaving high amounts of valuable goods. As each of those in favor of the current system have stated being able to collect mats of a certain level is a "reward" for leveling said craft. However, if you read your tool tip, nowhere does it say in any of the crafts, magically transmutes materials in world. Your reward for training in crafting has always been improving your ability to shape and work a material into better arms and armor. This has nothing to do with ability to gather. Shaping metal has nothing to do with gathering material. The idea, as zos has stated was to solve the issue of what mats should appear, and was one they hoped would solve the problem.
Previously the system they designed served a multitude of purposes and styles. They did not implement this mechanic previously for the very reason that many players are upset with it currently. They wished players to have access to goods and armor in a multitude of ways. The reward for leveling say, blacksmithing was not a magical ability to find new mats, it was, go figure, better skill in forging weapons and armor. Could everyone level it, sure we all know it takes about a week, (and for the record I have leveled mine specifically to gain access to laurels) but it's a change away from a core mechanic of the way the game has functioned, and functioned that way for good reason, which takes gold (you decon lots of stuff that could be sold -it does add up,) and is basically a change that just pads "gameplay." I'm not saying anything against you guys farming mats to use for writs or simply just selling them in your guild, however, just because you can use rubidite to make a sword doesn't make you more entitled to find it than someone else who will find it and either sell it to fund something else, or save it and pay a crafter to make him something with it.

That's a nice wall of text except you missed the part where 3 of the 6 crafting passives DO in fact give us a "magical ability to find new mats". We can see crafting nodes 40m closer, we have hirelings send us free mats every day, and we gain extra free mats from extracting and refining as well. So yes, fully maxing out a craft and all it's passives does indeed give us the ability to find better mats in new and easier ways. Half of the passives are dedicated to this.

We also have nearly 6 months now where we've been able to gather in Wrothgar based on our crafting level. Had ZOS not intended this to be a benefit to crafters of any level, they would not have left it in the game for six months and then also added that mechanic into Thieve's Guild. Instead what they did with TG, was make it easier to gather V16 mats, because they were unnecessarily hard to get before.

The system we have now is perfect for everybody. Crafters hard work is worth it, and anyone who doesn't want to put in a bit of effort to level the passives, can now buy the mats for newly cheap prices thanks to the new V16 node fix.

And yes because I can use Rubedite to make a Sword that does make me more entitled to find it. I have chosen to spend time specializing in a certain aspect of the game. You've leveled to VR16 and can farm high level mobs, dungeons, and quests for money. I can't do that yet since I'm not VR16. I have my various crafts and that should be worth something.

Leiloni

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Leiloni wrote: »

Yes but all V16 nodes are in scaled areas, so the only way to get them would be to deal with the 50/50 split. That's a huge issue.

Not entirely true.

Scaled areas only have V16 nodes, yes, provided you're proficient in that crafting skill passive.

However, you can still get raw or refined V16 mats through deconstruction of V16 equipment, killing V16 mobs, purchasing through the Imperial City Tel Var vendor, or trading/purchasing through other players and guildstores.

With the variety of other outlets out there, my opinion is that the current node scaling is fine ... and not a huge issue.

But we're talking about crafters that may not be VR16. Crafters shouldn't have to level to gather from crafting nodes that they've spent time and points putting into passives in order to be able to gather from. The existence of V16 gear you can deconstruct, or killing V16 mobs, or going into IC, etc. is for the V16 players that have not leveled crafting.

That's why the current system is perfect and should not be changed. Crafters of any level can farm their goods in Wrothgar and Hew's Bane. V16 players without crafting leveled (who have effectively made themselves combat specialists and not crafting specialists) can use the above combat-centric methods you mentioned , or they can buy the goods cheaply from a guild store, now that crafter's have an easier time of gathering them.

Taleof2Cities

Got it ... don't want to penalize master crafters who are not max vet level by giving them a 50/50 chance. Current system is fine.

Beardimus

Hmm, dont get the problem here, scaling is perfect as it is. You get the mats you are scaled to, its ideal. If i want stuff for my alts crafting level I take him, done. Likewise you don't HAVE to farm in DLC....just go back to your relevant alliance zone. Odd complaint....

Spearshard

Leiloni wrote: »

Spearshard wrote: »

So here's the thing. We have james, who if I am correct, you use crafting as a means to do daily writs on all your toons, and as a way to farm high level mats and sell mats and armor. You, and many others I would wager who support the system as it is now probably had maxed your crafters on your toon's for specifically that purpose. When the scaling change went live, happy day, high level mats, and as many people leveled one crafter and only see worthless jute and iron, pass it by leaving high amounts of valuable goods. As each of those in favor of the current system have stated being able to collect mats of a certain level is a "reward" for leveling said craft. However, if you read your tool tip, nowhere does it say in any of the crafts, magically transmutes materials in world. Your reward for training in crafting has always been improving your ability to shape and work a material into better arms and armor. This has nothing to do with ability to gather. Shaping metal has nothing to do with gathering material. The idea, as zos has stated was to solve the issue of what mats should appear, and was one they hoped would solve the problem.
Previously the system they designed served a multitude of purposes and styles. They did not implement this mechanic previously for the very reason that many players are upset with it currently. They wished players to have access to goods and armor in a multitude of ways. The reward for leveling say, blacksmithing was not a magical ability to find new mats, it was, go figure, better skill in forging weapons and armor. Could everyone level it, sure we all know it takes about a week, (and for the record I have leveled mine specifically to gain access to laurels) but it's a change away from a core mechanic of the way the game has functioned, and functioned that way for good reason, which takes gold (you decon lots of stuff that could be sold -it does add up,) and is basically a change that just pads "gameplay." I'm not saying anything against you guys farming mats to use for writs or simply just selling them in your guild, however, just because you can use rubidite to make a sword doesn't make you more entitled to find it than someone else who will find it and either sell it to fund something else, or save it and pay a crafter to make him something with it.

That's a nice wall of text except you missed the part where 3 of the 6 crafting passives DO in fact give us a "magical ability to find new mats". We can see crafting nodes 40m closer, we have hirelings send us free mats every day, and we gain extra free mats from extracting and refining as well. So yes, fully maxing out a craft and all it's passives does indeed give us the ability to find better mats in new and easier ways. Half of the passives are dedicated to this.

We also have nearly 6 months now where we've been able to gather in Wrothgar based on our crafting level. Had ZOS not intended this to be a benefit to crafters of any level, they would not have left it in the game for six months and then also added that mechanic into Thieve's Guild. Instead what they did with TG, was make it easier to gather V16 mats, because they were unnecessarily hard to get before.

The system we have now is perfect for everybody. Crafters hard work is worth it, and anyone who doesn't want to put in a bit of effort to level the passives, can now buy the mats for newly cheap prices thanks to the new V16 node fix.

And yes because I can use Rubedite to make a Sword that does make me more entitled to find it. I have chosen to spend time specializing in a certain aspect of the game. You've leveled to VR16 and can farm high level mobs, dungeons, and quests for money. I can't do that yet since I'm not VR16. I have my various crafts and that should be worth something.

Perhaps you need to go back and read the passives? They specifically state, you can SEE mats at x distance (not change mat type), when refining a mat you gain a chance to extract tempers and traits (not change mat type), and you gain a hireling that gathers materials for you once per day (definitely not changing mat type). So I'm not really sure what you were trying to go for but, no not a single passive has anything to do with mats you find in the world. With the exception of seeing mats from farther away. The importance of getting the system back to how it originally worked, as has been stated in previous posts, with the upcoming DB, it is highly likely that every zone past lvl 50 will be scaled. And given ZOS reasoning for how scaling worked previously, and they're statement currently they don't agree with you. Again, your "reward" for crafting is the ability to craft. Not find different material.

Dagonthir

@MSchroeder, I just wanted to say that I wouldn't recommend making any changes that make things worse for some people. Having 2 kinds of nodes will cause people who have low level master crafters that they use to farm materials to only get max level nodes part of the time instead of all the time, as they do now.

I kind of like @NewBlacksmurf 's suggestion to have crafting passives increase the amount of materials harvested. So you could scale to character level or crafting passive level, whichever is higher and give increased harvested materials to crafters. Maybe the amount of materials harvested could be associated with the passive that gives additional tempers when deconning gear since it's already kind of related to extraction. The first point spent could give 1 additional mat, second point gives 2, and third point gives 3. So people with the points spent would get 9 materials instead of 3 for each harvest. That would allow people to keep playing the way they were playing before the scaling was introduced, and give a bonus to crafters. I think that's fair to everyone.

TheVindelator

This would help me a lot.

Between all my characters, I've got at least one Alice, Bob, Charlie, Debroah, Mac, Dennis and Frank.

Long story short, I've split crafting skills over my whole account like many players.

Myxril

Dagonthir wrote: »

The first point spent could give 1 additional mat, second point gives 2, and third point gives 3. So people with the points spent would get 9 materials instead of 3 for each harvest. That would allow people to keep playing the way they were playing before the scaling was introduced, and give a bonus to crafters. I think that's fair to everyone.

+1/+2/+3 (+6) would be waaaay too much, especially if my Plentiful Harvest kicked in and +12'd that on top of doubling the original yield.

I like the idea, but I'd personally say +1/+0/+1 would be ideal, if anything. Maybe even 0/0/+1. 20 nodes farmed would get 60-80 +20 (not to mention additional from Plentiful Harvest proc'ing).

I only state this as an "If this were to happen" thing; I'm not actively advocating this to be implimented, for the record. X)

Dagonthir

Myxril wrote: »

I like the idea, but I'd personally say +1/+0/+1 would be ideal, if anything. Maybe even 0/0/+1. 20 nodes farmed would get 60-80 +20 (not to mention additional from Plentiful Harvest proc'ing).

That sounds good. I wasn't sure what a good split would be.

Asha_11_ESO

The proposed node split would be awesome. It's silly getting a character to V16, running around the max level zones not able to harvest materials to craft myself some gear. Instead I have to switch over to my low level max crafter whom I might not feel like playing, and run around for countless hours farming. I made it a master crafter though, so at least it can pick every node and get max mats.

Katahdin

In the time this thread has been going on, you could have leveled blacksmith, clothing and woodworking on at least one character.

I will say it again. The system is fine the way it is. I love that Wrothgar, Hews Bane and Cyro now have all V16 mats so that when I am questing on my lower level alts with max crafting in those lines, they can get the V16 mats. I have tons of the lower level mats because I gather in every zone I am in. I have so much I have to sell it occasionally. I rarely make a dedicated farming run now because I dont have to. I did before the TG change. I have tons of mats from gathering as I play.

I have one master crafter. When Wrothgar came out, I reluctantly started leveling my alts in crafting blacksmith, wood and cloth. I now have 5 done and a 6th almost done. It wasnt hard at all, really it was quite easy. Just decon stuff they collect along the way and pass down the higher level stuff to the lower level crafters to level them up. Park the one you are currently working on at a crafting station, put stuff from the character you are currently playing in the bank, switch, decon, etc etc. It literally takes 2 minutes every day to do this on whatever character you are working on. You do not need to do any research at all. It really is that easy.

None of these characters are gimped whatsoever because of 30 skill points. In fact, my master crafter, with all crafts maxed, 3 weapons lines maxed, a fourth half way done, werewolf maxed, class passives maxed, etc, has around 40 extra skill points waiting for me to use on TG and some of the ledgerman stuff. Not gimped at all.

Again, the system is fine the way it is and I implore ZoS to please not complicate it and make it a huge clusterf*** with this change.

IcyDeadPeople

Leiloni wrote: »

But we're talking about crafters that may not be VR16. Crafters shouldn't have to level to gather from crafting nodes that they've spent time and points putting into passives in order to be able to gather from.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Got it ... don't want to penalize master crafters who are not max vet level by giving them a 50/50 chance. Current system is fine.

Yes, I'd imagine the primary intent for most of us getting a character to master any crafting skill is to be able to craft max level items with that character. Considering how many V16 mats are required to craft a full set of gear, this is the only kind of mat I'm interested in. Anything else, I can easily get in a static low level zone or buy from guild trader.

Asha_11_ESO wrote: »

The proposed node split would be awesome. It's silly getting a character to V16, running around the max level zones not able to harvest materials to craft myself some gear. Instead I have to switch over to my low level max crafter whom I might not feel like playing, and run around for countless hours farming. I made it a master crafter though, so at least it can pick every node and get max mats.

It's quite a lot faster and easier to get any or all your characters to max out a particular crafting skill than it is to grind up your low level expert crafter all the way to V16.

Certainly wouldn't mind occasionally running across additional V16 nodes on my V16 that lacks the crafting passives, but it would be annoying if my V10 master blacksmith has to spend twice as long gathering rubedite in Cyrodiil because suddenly it only drops 50% of the time.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

There is absolutely no need whatsoever to change the current system. It benefits everyone except people who want to craft but dont want to put points into crafting. Its pointless and a waste of time/money. I just wonder are all the bugs fixed? Why are we "fixing" stuff that isnt broke?