Official Feedback Thread for Templars

Jura23

Or just give us all free class change.

Cinbri

@Joy_Division
check my post, i tried to even add maths numbers for my suggestions. http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/248012/templar-post-2-3-2-suggestions#latest
Healing Ritual - lets give up, there is no way to fix it and zos should not waste time on fixing it, there is much more important things.
Sun Shield - Wrobel told that percentage skills and shieldstacking mechanic is problem and since Sun Shield has both of those problems it won't be fixed until Update 10, so i tried to suggest about Radiant Ward morph that remove both those problems and based on old things(like Black Rose stamina return procs), so zos wont waste tons of time on theorycrafting and mechanics.
Crescent - honestly after buff i probably will use this skill for PvP over Dawnbreaker, on pts it hits hard enough when outnumbered. And Empowering Sweep +2 sec is just what we needed. Further buffs will be unblalanced coz low ultimate cost.
Enduring Rays - i doubt they will do it simply coz they could do it for Master Ritualist, but prefered easy way and just made it more useless.
Solar Barrage could get major defile buff so risk=reward, same as Dark Flare, otherwise it too pale in compare with Spear Shards.
Spear Shards - it is pretty balanced. ZOS won't add any sort of AoE damage for 8m aoe. and price for speed is fact that it is ranged aoe, however they could improve speed indeed. Also fact that templar cant restore stamina by himself from synnergy is sad.
Rune Focus - won't be "fixed" further and so we must not waste time on requests for this skill. At least morphs are equal now.
Sweeps - it must heal through damage shields otherwise it is becoming useless when you meet shieldstacker.
Nova - it should indeed reduce cost like dk standart to 200 ult, coz it is too weak.
Rushed Ceremony - we should forget to request anything about it, won't be changed anyway.
Eclipse - how do you like my suggestions? I also like @Solariken idea regarding it.

Solariken

Great post @Joy_Division (#1337, I think it's hilarious that your post was the holy number of leet-speak). I support the majority of what you wrote, but I hope you don't mind if I offer some thoughts for you to consider adding to your mega-post:

Healing Ritual - I very much like the idea of an instant-cast HoT with pulses centered on the Templar to match the current radius. The overall healing output could even be a little lower if necessary.

Improved Restoring Aura concept:

Restoring Aura
While slotted, you gain Minor Fortitude, Minor Endurance, and Minor Intellect, increasing Health, Stamina, and Magicka Regeneration by 10%. Activate to share your blessings with nearby group members, granting Major Fortitude, Major Endurance, and Major Intellect (+20% to all regen) for 15 seconds.

Radiant Aura
While slotted, you gain Minor Fortitude, Minor Endurance, and Minor Intellect, increasing Health, Stamina, and Magicka Regeneration by 10%. Activate to become filled with righteous wrath, granting Major Sorcery (+20% spell damage) and Major Brutality (+20% weapon damage) for X seconds.

Repentance remains unchanged.

This suggestion gives three really great options for the skill that the Templar can choose from depending on his/her style of play. This also gives in-class alternatives to Entropy and Momentum, which opens up many more build options. You know how much we players love our build options!

Radial Sweep should indeed have a 7-8 meter radius, and Crescent Sweep should offer Minor Berserk (+8% damage) for the duration.

Piercing Javelin should gain execute functionality. This skill is THE reason I rolled a Templar - it looks amazing, feels amazing, and should have real impact. I'm thinking something in the neighborhood of up to 25% additional damage against targets under 20% health. It's not a huge difference, but it helps make up for the high cost and low damage it's plagued with now

I feel very strongly that Eclipse should be replaced with a defensive self-buff. I like the spirit of the current mechanics, but it's clearly too hard to balance and has been nerfed into the ground. Please consider this as you offer your own suggestion: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/240429/eclipse-morphs-suggestion/p1

[ADDITIONAL SUGGESTIONS]:

The Piercing Spear passive should also grant 5/10% additional damage versus shielded targets. I think shield stacking should remain as is, but ZOS should build in small offensive advantages against shields into other abilities. I think this passive is a perfect place to start.

And finally, I 100% believe that Templars should have Minor Expedition (+10% movement speed) granted at all times while an Aedric Spear ability is slotted. I will continue to lobby for this until the end of days. We don't need Major Expedition, but we need Minor because we have to chase enemies FAR more then Dk's who have powerhouse CC. EDIT: I think this should be added to either Burning Light or Balanced Warrior.

nagarjunna

Jura23 wrote: »

Or just give us all free class change.

With respect, I don't want a free class change! I do understand where you are coming from, tho'.

I do want them to fix things and make things right so I can play my preferred class.

Zheg

Joy can come into my Templar house, even when he plays on his filthy red. Dont mind the asbestos though joy, a twilight matriarch can heal you up if you develop any health issues.

Thal

Solariken wrote: »

And finally, I 100% believe that Templars should have Minor Expedition (+10% movement speed) granted at all times while an Aedric Spear ability is slotted. I will continue to lobby for this until the end of days. We don't need Major Expedition, but we need Minor because we have to chase enemies FAR more then Dk's who have powerhouse CC.

Love that idea. Sometimes I feel like I'm stuck in mud after I switch back from Sorc

AfkNinja

Joy_Division wrote: »

What I believe are still the major problems with Templars. @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KNowak @ZOS_RichLambert @ZoS anyone.

@Soris @bikerangelo @Hymzir @timidobserver @tinythinker @david.haypreub18_ESO @dodgehopper_ESO @BalticBlues @eliisra @Zinaroth @AfkNinja @Zheg @booksmcread @nagarjunna @Cinbri @DHale @Husan @MissBizz @Chelos @Deltia @puffy99 @Essiaga @AriBoh @Sallington @Kaliki @SeptimusDova @technohic @Faulgor @Islyn @Alcast @lots of people I missed. I do not and will not claim to speak for you as these are my assessments. If I missed something point it out please. If I write something that makes sense to you, let the Devs know what is here is not a lonely voice in the wilderness.

The purpose of this post is to identify the major problems with templars, not to fix them. Put the spotlight on them and hopefully provide and impetus for ZoS to do their thing and make the class a versatile, compelling, interesting, distinctive, and fun play. I am historian, not a game designer so I am not going to pretend I have the training and experience to go beyond that and do something competently that's not my job. I am pretty good at analyzing, comparing stuff, and considering perspectives that are not my own. So, I'll just point out the stuff that isn't quite working and just a general idea where I think it needs to go.

Needs Immediate Attention

This tier represents those skills that templars are actually less effective for using and potentially damages their chances of winning.

Healing Ritual - the split second reduction in cast time does not reconcile the fundamental problem Eric Wrobel identified with this skill on ESO Live: "Cause in general the burst damage happens really quickly, like you die really fast, right? ... I hit the ability and I'm like waiting, and I'm waiting, and then they die before it goes off." This on top of the lack of mobility, the potential for interruption, and the short range.
Fix: NO time between casting and healing. Period. End of Story. Make it a HoT. (Add a stamina variant for Stamplar ) Make it a channel. I don't care. Do NOT have me wait for that heal.

Radiant Aura - No spell in the game should duplicate the common and widely used tri-stat potion. I will never use one of my ten slots and my magicka to provide a redundant buff the people who need stamina are going to have in any case. Note: The Repentance morph is just fine.
Fix: Make it like function like the original spell pre 1.6, i.e, what we get is independent the already present mundane buffs we will have active. Tweak the numbers. Thematically templars providing stamina for their group is very useful function that helps distinguish us.

Sun Shield - It is totally unfair for ZoS to scale our primarily defensive ability of an attribute that its lead combat designer has admitted everyone tries to run as low as possible. This indicates ZoS is aware of the fundamental problem but is content to do nothing to address it. That it is designed to be cast in combat is also a huge disadvantage compared to other shields. It has got to be good. It's not. Unacceptable. Here are some pictures what I have to deal with when trying to defend my "house"


That's my shield. 3204. (Pathetic and unfair.)

And what exactly is that 3204 shield going to do when I have to deal with damage like this?

[

I blocked that! The shield is a woeful. And, take a look at my alleged OP breath of life. Keep telling me Templars are spamming too much healing while ignoring the damage flying around Cyrodiil. EXACTLY, we only get big heals when people are in execute range.

Here's what happens when I don't block



This is a single global cooldown:



Fix: - Do not ask me to run a high health builds because the PvE content ZoS's dungeon team designed thinks I run a high magicka build. Scale the shield to magicka/stamina and increase the damage until the whole health is undesirable thing is fixed.

Bad, but not game-breakingly terrible

This tier represents those skills that are lacking with respect to other stuff in the game, but won't actually impede your chances of success.

Radial Sweep - If you are a level 45 max CP expert PvPer terrorizing Backwater Blade, this skill can serve as an excellent means of damage mitigation. Now can we please get an ultimate that has a bit more applicability? This has a range of 6 meters while lava whip and wrecking blow have 7 meters. This often misses targets in its radius (perhaps an elevation issue).
Fix: More range, reliably hitting targets. One of these morphs should do physical damage. YES YES YES The "tank" empowering morph should also put some sort of 8 second debuff enemies. The "damage" crescent morph looks like it may have been addressed (I'll still have to test) but it still should grant some sort of 8 second offensive buff. I will still use Dawnbreaker over the ability because the Fighter's Guild ultimate has comparable damage even to non daedra-undead.

Balanced Warrior (passive). A misnomer if there has ever been one. 1.6 made this passive obsolete. Spell damage please.

Sun Fire - The Vampire Bane morph is a good DPS skill. Everything about this ability needs work. Reflective Light did not get same duration increase. The major prophecy buff is way too short to be practical alternative to mage light.
Fix: - Please Major Prophecy to standard buff duration (20 seconds). Increase Reflective Light's duration.

Enduring Rays (passive). It still the only passive in the game that makes class abilities worse (in this case the Unstable Core morph for Eclipse). Just include the passive's benefits into the standard duration the Dawn's Wrath abilities we want to last longer and replace this with something we need: passive resource management. Because templars need to endure. Every time you cast a dawn's wrath ability, templars get X magicka and stamina. Sound familiar? It should. It was an old passive that never needed to be removed and would really help the heavy armor paladin archetype that so many who rolled this class would like to play ...

Rite of Passage . I know there are people out there that will argue with me and claim this is good or useful ultimate. All I will say is that there was once a time I was near the top of the Trials leaderboards and all my raid leaders rejected the premise that this skill was a viable alternative to healing springs + some other more useful ultimate. Also when the group I run with in PvP loses a fight, it is not because our opponents were using this skill to mitigate our damage. Until I see Hodor run both morphs of this ultimate, I will maintain my position that this is a suboptimal choice for any player looking to maximize their chance of winning.
Fix:. Again we can't move. Fine. Increase the range a bit. Roll the Remembrance morph into the base spell so the immobile Templar is actually doing something constructive for those people not getting heals (i.e. HALF a PVE raid and even more in PvP). The Practiced Incarnation morph extending the duration for this effect would be fine. Make the other morph cleanse negative effects. I also dislike the new animation as it does not as clearly define the beneficial range and effects of this ultimate. Without these changes, I will always spam healing springs when a large amount of stationary healing is required and slot Nova instead.

Light Weaver Perhaps the worst passive in the game. It does nothing to our good abilities and gives marginal increases to only our terrible ones. I don't even spend my skill points here.
Fix: Increase the Templar's armor and spell resistance while within any of her runes or auras. Let's start building that house, huh?

Uninspiring and Mediocre, but occasionally useful

Nothing about the performance of effect of these abilities gets me excited to log into Elder Scrolls and play a Templar even if they perform their function adequately.

Piercing Javelin -Appreciate the range increase, but it's just a generic CC that opponents will simply break. Fix: Debuff enemy somehow.

Spear Wall (passive) Increases block Vs. melee attacks. Historically spear walls were used as a defense against missile attacks. Just saying. Would love -15% dmg for 4s on blocked attacks, 50% chance to proc? 25%?

Restoring Spirit (passive) - No templar has ever forgotten the nerf to what was the class's only means of passive resource regeneration. ZoS removed what was an interesting and different means of sustain and gave templars a boring cost reduction that is inadequate compared to the other classes. So now we have not means to defend our house and no passive resource management. Buff please.

Solar Barrage (specific morph) - It's a little better than Impulse ... maybe ... but Impulse has been nerfed so it is also uninspiringly insipid. I will take Dark Flare morph every time.
Fix: Skill needs to do more than just damage.

Cleansing Ritual - Used to be a great ability that gave templars the very distinctiveness Zos seeks. Then ZoS "fixed" this. Thanks ZoS always fixes the beneficial "bugs" to our class (without compensating the loss in effectiveness) but has trouble with the ones the undermine it. I know I have to use it because of a passive, but the skill's actual functionality is now the same as the generic Alliance War Purge skill. Yawn. Boring. Meh.
Fix: It wasn't cool to just take away the defensive capability of this spell without replacing it with something else.

Has potential but is undermined

Toppling Charge - What more can I say that hasn't been said? The most annoying bug associated with this ability is when it starts and you hear the sound effect of the spell but then cancels. I believe this is a NEW bug that did not happen when our main complaints were limited to the cooldown and getting stuck in the charge animation. For what it's worth, I dont get stuck in charges much anymore (thank you very much, I will acknowledge the improvement here), but this happens every single night I play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_a9gKVP3UE

Spear Shards - Does not do enough damage considering the long aim and travel time. We still remember the double nerf to this ability during the IC incremental patches. An AoE that places only 1 debuff is a puzzling mechanic ... especially when 3 seems to be the common number out there (cf. talons, fear).
Fix: Slow speed needs to be strong damage. Make CC component to 3 targets for consistency.

Dark Flare - I don't mind and accept the long travel time because I think it is now the hardest hitting spell in the game. I know that first cast is longer than the 1.1 second tooltip time and that will get a templar killed in PvP. We are mad because stuff like this never gets fixed but when dodge-roller complains about getting hit by toppling charge, that just has to get priority. Fix: 1.1 second cast time.

Backlash - This skill is good in theory but does not scale with spell damage (only max magicka), which turns it into a DPS loss for players who get a lot of spellpower bonuses (such as from spell power cure, major sorcery, Molag Kena, etc). Also the recent changes to the patch makes it noticeably more difficult for a single player to reach the damage cap, particularly in Cyrodiil where there is already a 50% reduction.
Fix: Either the secondary utility function (heal, armor debuff) needs to be more potent or this needs to scale with spell damage.

Rune Focus - A net nerf. On Live, if I put this down and leave, I get the resistance buffs for 8 seconds and the magicka regen for like 20. What ZoS wants to do is make it so both of these last 8 seconds after I leave. Here is the other problem with the skill. ZoS is against homogenization right? OK...why is it that the templar's buff is the same as the sorcerer and NB buff when the templar's is so much more restrictive? This ability does not create a "house" that is somehow sturdier, more resilient, or more advantageous than the sorcerer's "house" (which can move) or the NB's house (which they get while doing damage).
Fix: No idea. ESO requires mobility and ZoS wants templars to stand in one spot. For a start, I would NOT penalize a templar for leaving the Rune. All classes keep their buffs no matter where they go and the same should be for Templars. Instead, incentivize us to stay in that Rune by offering more than generic bonuses and maybe debuff the enemies trying to break in and enter it?

Note: one-third of our class abilities fall into this category!

Abilities worthy of comparison with other classes

Puncturing strikes - It's good but still flawed. Appreciate the snare change but that's still a nerf; this stopped wrecking blow spammers and it won't do that anymore which can be potentially significant. The snare should be on the first hit since the ability locks us into place, not on the last. @Nifty2g says this still can't crit heal and I trust his testing. I still hate the 5% healing nerf and I am piqued to be told it's not a nerf. Magicka templars who charge follow up with this skill and will be getting healed for less. It's another indication to me that ZoS's combat team does not fully grasp how templars try to compete in a PvP environment. Sorry if that sounds mean, but I don't know how else I could interpret ZoS's response to the healing nerf.
Fix: Heals for 40% of damage done; heal can crit; Snare applied on first hit; ability interrupts casters/channels.

Nova - Our only good ultimate. I still don't know why an ally has to be within 3.5 meters of the center to activate the synergy. If a Nova is not crushed, it's a waste of 250 ultimate. It's too expensive.
Fix: Synergy is given priority and can be activate by an ally standing anywhere in Nova. Reduce cost (and DK standard).

Radiant Destruction - Appreciate the recognition that channels should not be dodged. I still dislike ZoS's practice of making its customers play with broken abilities for 6 months. Fix: Upon entering Cyrodiil for the first time, please force new players to go through a "here is how you counter RD" tutorial that demonstrates how bashing, using interrupt skills, cleansing, cloaking, healing, shielding, harness magickaing, moving out of range/LOS, out DPSing the attacking templar, CCing the templar, and other various means can defeat a templar using RD.

Rushed Ceremony - I'm sorry but this skill is overrated. I get it, other classes hate it. But everything a NB says about Cloak, everything sorcerers say about Hardened Ward/streak, and everything DKs says about Reflective Scales applies to Rushed Ceremony when considering how strong it is. Since their signature skills also got nerfed, I will bite my tongue with regards to the blanket and unnecessary nerf to Breath of Life. And it left a sour taste in my mouth that our signature skill was just nerfed without any other consideration/adjustment to other apsects of the spell such as cost/adding non-healing functionality/etc. I still think is it beholden upon ZoS to provide us with these other viable healing options we are suppose to use in class. This means rethinking the get-your-allies-killed Healing Ritual spell and making Rite of Passage feel like I'm doing something more worthy of an ultimate than giving 6 people a HoT.

That's every Templar ability except one that deserves its own special tier

I know ZoS is trying, but it gets worse with every patch

Eclipse - This ability deserves an entire thread of its own. I'll write something pithy tomorrow after class. The short of it is that this spell is objectively worse now that it was before the IC update, a time when it was already uninspiring since many Templars preferred the sword & shield reflect to their own class skill. Yet it has gotten nerfed and worse. Inexplicable.

**********************

Where do Templars stand in the grand scheme of things?

There are some things that are better. As much as we have critiqued and complained, a templar's DPS is unquestionably better and easier to put on target. The more offensively minded templars in PvP are probably going to prefer the Thieves' Guild update than what's on Live. And I know the mending change will make things better for Stamplars (that's all they getting though). I have talked with some templars that are legitimately excited. This should not be ignored. Some good work here ZoS.

However, it is difficult to feel that Templars are on the whole better or more versatile or more interesting to play in the next update. THIS!!!

I think it's 100% clear the class's ability to sustain/mitigate/defend its "house" is absolutely weaker. ZoS can claim the capacity to purify meteors was a "bugfix," that still does not change the fact that a key defensive aspect templars use on Live is being removed without compensation. ZoS can claim the major mending makes up for the healing nerfs, but as someone who doesn't rely on a resto staff to heal in PvP and who uses puncturing sweeps after charging opponents, this isn't lemonade ZoS is selling, it's a 5% healing reduction lemon. More wasted time and mana laying down Runes just to match what we have on Live right now. Eclipse is still somehow restricted to a single target and the defensive capabilities of it on the PTS is an unquestionably a net loss. As it was, a huge critique of the 1.6 change was that templars could not stand their ground adequately to justify the class's lack of mobility. I know about the minor protection addition to Rune, but most templars opt for the magicka recovery because ZoS gives us no resource management. Don't get me started on the 1% increase to my woeful shield to the morph I don't even use. None of this even considers the breath of life nerf.

These changes seem to be pushing templars into a more offensive, glass-cannon approach which is ... puzzling given that probably is not the reason why many players decided to role a templar. I understand that lack of templar DPS has been source of templar agitation (mostly from before 1.6), but I don't think what templars wanted was to be a re-skinned nightblade without mobility or cloak. I mean ZoS took away our best defensive tool in blinding flashes and gave us our best DPS tool in Radiant Destruction. I love RD as it allows me as a healer to better contribute to my dungeon-delving team with some actual and meaningful DPS, but why couldn't this have replaced Sun Fire or Healing Ritual?

There is also a loss of distinctiveness which, again, is puzzling given Eric's recent stated desire to ensure classes were different and has their own identities. People claimed we heal and we had a class tree solely devoted to that. Then some people complained that we healed too much and we rez too fast. Now that got nerfed, sorcerers have pets that heal more than our signature skill and yet somehow we are still stuck we a tree that is devoted to healing even though two of the skills are terrible and its ultimate not used. OK, I guess the anti-healers are happy ... but where does that leave us? What is our place? Why does stuff just get taken away without any recompense? Maybe sorcerers didn't like I could purify their crystal frags. But it was something that made us special and they still were a stronger class than us. Are we now just supposed to be excited for being generic DPS with one less ability tree than the other classes? I still have no mobility, still overly restrictive resource management, still lack the tools to defend my "house," now can't heal as well as I used to. I guess I am supposed to just Jesus Beam all of you.

Most of all, the 40+ pages of disappointment stem from unfulfilled expectations and changes that are just baffling to those of us who play this class everyday. I don't know why I was under the impression this patch was devoted to address balance. I think I heard it on ESO Live at some point. Or maybe because it's been a year since I've been stuck with so many clumsy and inefficient skills and I just assumed it's been long enough. We did our part. We have told ZoS time and time again, with a bizarre and atypical degree of consensus I have never seen in over 30 years of playing RPGs, just how counterproductive many of the templar mechanics are. To see so many of these clear and insightful explanations not heeded or given token adjustments is a huge let down.

What bothers me most about these patch notes is perception of apathy that went behind them. No doubt this is a false impression. But perception trumps reality. Look at the 5% reduction to the healing for puncturing sweeps. It apparently would be inconceivable, inexplicable, incredulous, incredible, implausible, and impossible for Zos to say: "You know what, templars are kind of hurting with their overall tankiness and it's been a common complaint about the class. The change to the major mending passive could potentially increase those sweep heals by a bit under certain conditions. It might make sense to leave that value at 40% to reward templars who are trying to defend their 'house' and besides, we still can't figure out how to get those heals to crit." Just had to put that nerf in there! Or with Healing Ritual. How can I possibly come to a different conclusion that Zos places so little value in our feedback when with a unanimous voice we have said the cast-time kills the spell and yet in the patch notes we see it that the cast time is still there?

I really really really want to believe that Zos's combat team loves templars and that ZoS listens to the templar community and to be perfectly clear I am sure ZoS does, but ... wow we've been stuck with that awful Radiant Aura spell and an inadequate shield for so long, trust me it's not easy. I am tired of seeing our sole remaining only sometimes useful defensive spell eclipse get nerfed every single update. Tired of seeing only beneficial bugs to our class get fixed without the only that plagued it or undermine it not get fixed. Tired of having so many wonky or useless skills diluting our build choices. The constant and persistent nerfs and "fixes" to the little things my class can do that others cannot is driving me nuts. This thread would be just 10 pages long if it were easy for templar players to believe that the other classes were not somehow loved more equally than their own.

I know Zos is trying. I know ZoS cares. I know what is on ZoS's plate and what they would like to do exceeds its manpower/resources. I'm not expecting perfection. I can accept nerfs for the betterment of the game as a whole. But for the love of the Eight Divines, let us help you. Most of this feedback and the stuff we have suggested does have the game's best interest at heart. I know we get hysterical at times, too easily allow our frustrations to overdramatize things we say, and our passions for the class make us overly defensive and sensitive to nerfs and negative adjustments. Besides, you got to admit some of it is rather amusing We wouldn't be templars if we just sat down quietly and meekly said, "OK" when our most defining skill gets nerfed. Trust us when we say we don't use certain skills. Throw us a bone once in a while when you announce on the patch notes that one of our defining features is getting "fixed" or "adjusted." Give us a reason to be excited to do something other than a few more DPS.

I really think it would be a good idea for ZoS to throw some of its more promising ideas for the changes that are supposed to be coming for the Dark Brotherhood on incremental patches. Let us actually see how ZoS's vision shapes up and let us help guide you to a better product. I know Zos says that approach is not as efficient, but efficiency is a really tough selling point when Healing Ritual, Radiant Aura, Rite of Passage, etc., have been so bad for so long. We're just looking for inspiration here. Something tangible to grasp on and say to ourselves, "Looks like ZoS has a legit plan for templars." If you just threw one change to one of our meh skills that a non DPS glass cannon templar would be genuinely excited to try out, it would go a long way. And if our class is so distinctive with channels and staying "home," a few gear options that recognized that vision would really help us do just that. Heck, there are 5 piece crafted bonuses going to waste because nobody even considers using them (like Ashen Grip, Torug's Pact, etc.).

I think a lot of us just want to be excited and inspired to play a templar and do templar things, ideally in some different and new ways than what we have been doing for the past year. DPS is all well and good, but many templars want to be something more than a damage dealing class.

I think you have done an amazing job of summing up how we feel at the moment and I agree with all of your suggested changes. My own additions are in bold.

AriBoh

These long well thought out time consuming posts are beginning to depress me. Because somewhere @Wrobel is doing his hardest to ignore them and succeeding.

Cinbri

When your templar stuck without stamina and then that feeling when you pick up Shards of some other templar. Anyone who tried know that it unforgettable feeling and 2nd thought after it - "why de [snip] i can't pick my own Shards, so my templar will become sustainable ".
Or that feeling when you activate Scales on your DK... it makes you think that something really wrong with templars

SeptimusDova

Or as you equip your scant shield to protect your house and you see the neighborhood sorc streaking down the street with his Hardened Ward

Ffastyl

@Joy_Division I can resonate with most of what you say, especially Templars lacking defense.

I get the sense you play primarily a Magicka Templar as no Stamina morphs were mentioned in detail and one suggestion would actually shaft Stamina Templars: Sun Shield to Magicka.

Stamina has no access to Rushed Ceremony and Healing Ritual is actually strong enough to function as a heal for Stamina - but is unusable with a cast time, like everyone has said; Biting Jabs has no healing, nor does Power of the Light. Templar has no defense and Stamina cannot even use healing to make up for it.

Having Sun Shield as Health based would give Stamina a defense if buffed. Converting it to Magicka will make the Magicka/Stamina parity for Templar very similar to the parity for Sorcerers. Instead of taking an option away from Stamina Templars, double the base and bonus percentages for Sun Shield, 60% and 10% respectively. It may make it overpowered for PvE but such a buff will restore it to the usable shape we had for PvP prior to 1.6.

WalkingLegacy

Joy Division has a great post.

One thing that stood out is spear wall historically used to block missles when it is historically used to block cavalry charges

Shield wall is for missle blocking

Would love to see some thought from ZoS on the great feedback so far.

AfkNinja

Solariken wrote: »

Improved Restoring Aura concept:
Restoring Aura
While slotted, you gain Minor Fortitude, Minor Endurance, and Minor Intellect, increasing Health, Stamina, and Magicka Regeneration by 10%. Activate to share your blessings with nearby group members, granting Major Fortitude, Major Endurance, and Major Intellect (+20% to all regen) for 15 seconds.

Radiant Aura
While slotted, you gain Minor Fortitude, Minor Endurance, and Minor Intellect, increasing Health, Stamina, and Magicka Regeneration by 10%. Activate to become filled with righteous wrath, granting Major Sorcery (+20% spell damage) and Major Brutality (+20% weapon damage) for X seconds.

Repentance remains unchanged.

This suggestion gives three really great options for the skill that the Templar can choose from depending on his/her style of play. This also gives in-class alternatives to Entropy and Momentum, which opens up many more build options. You know how much we players love our build options!

Oh hell yes.

AOECAPS

When was the last time a ZOS employee posted in this thread? TBH all of us wanting this class to work are SOL our "house" is a homeless persons cardboard box Wrobel basically said you're not getting an aoe cc back and we still have high cost abilities with no passives for sustain. I think the Bol nerf is okay and the good healers will keep doing their thing the bad Templars that spam Bol (I've seen them on twitch and they give all of us a bad name TBH ) will struggle. The class imbalance is still ridiculous and saying we will see something with Dark Brotherhoid isn't enough. My stamplar will roll through dailies but that's it sadly He can not enjoy pvp like my NB or DKs can it's crazy how much more difficult it is playing the stamplar than anything else

Kaliki

Ffastyl wrote: »

Having Sun Shield as Health based would give Stamina a defense if buffed. Converting it to Magicka will make the Magicka/Stamina parity for Templar very similar to the parity for Sorcerers. Instead of taking an option away from Stamina Templars, double the base and bonus percentages for Sun Shield, 60% and 10% respectively. It may make it overpowered for PvE but such a buff will restore it to the usable shape we had for PvP prior to 1.6.

I agree that Sun Shield should stay equally useful for Stamina and Magicka Templars.

In my beady eyes Sun Shield is a defensive spell. I believe the reason it is so underpowered now lies with its damage component scaling with shield strength, you cannot buff it without risking the damage becoming too much.

If damage would be a fixed value or if it got replaced/coupled with a knockback or disorient it could become a powerful shield again and no matter how high you scale the shield value with magicka/health/stamina, you wouldn't have Templars kill people with a shield like it used to be possible for an awefully short while long, long ago.

nagarjunna

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Would love to see some thought from ZoS on the great feedback so far.

I suspect ZOS have no thoughts on this... Immanuel Kant sums that one up quite well:

Thoughts without content are empty, intuitions without concepts are blind.

Ffastyl

@Kaliki I see the damage of Blazing Shield as a unique aspect for Templars. Where Dragonknights have their Reflective Scales to reflect projectiles, Templars have Blazing Shield to reflect melee.

Sallington

Ffastyl wrote: »

@Kaliki I see the damage of Blazing Shield as a unique aspect for Templars. Where Dragonknights have their Reflective Scales to reflect projectiles, Templars have Blazing Shield to reflect melee.

If by reflect you mean "turn enemy attacks into a bowl of spaghetti and dump it on their head". The shield strength is negligible and the damage returned to the attacker is weaker, and much less delicious, than dumping a bowl of spaghetti on their heads.

Whenever I see a Templar spamming Blazing Shield on my nightblade, I giggle while continuing to spam surprise attack while my Rally HoT takes care of the damage from Blazing Shield.

Animal_Mother

@Joy_Division, Great post.

I think Backlash would be more usable if it was just an outright damage multiplier with a debuff - no more storing up damage and releasing at some point; just apply the multiplier when damage is done. It would certainly make the skill more understandable and would eliminate the "double-dipping" damage tax we suffer when using it in Cyrodiil.

As @Ffastyl alluded to, stamplars have no reliable instant self heal. Everything they can cast is a HOT. It would be nice to find this option somewhere in our healing tree. Of course, someone who isn't a Templar will quickly snip "what about Repentance" - one of those special Templar moments, I guess.

dodgehopper_ESO

AriBoh wrote: »

These long well thought out time consuming posts are beginning to depress me. Because somewhere @Wrobel is doing his hardest to ignore them and succeeding.

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around does it make a sound? :P

Ffastyl

Sallington wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

@Kaliki I see the damage of Blazing Shield as a unique aspect for Templars. Where Dragonknights have their Reflective Scales to reflect projectiles, Templars have Blazing Shield to reflect melee.

If by reflect you mean "turn enemy attacks into a bowl of spaghetti and dump it on their head". The shield strength is negligible and the damage returned to the attacker is weaker, and much less delicious, than dumping a bowl of spaghetti on their heads.

Whenever I see a Templar spamming Blazing Shield on my nightblade, I giggle while continuing to spam surprise attack while my Rally HoT takes care of the damage from Blazing Shield.

In its current state, yes. What Kaliki and I are referring to is if we buffed the shield component, which would indirectly buff the damage component.

dodgehopper_ESO

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Joy Division has a great post.

One thing that stood out is spear wall historically used to block missles when it is historically used to block cavalry charges

Shield wall is for missle blocking

Would love to see some thought from ZoS on the great feedback so far.

Shield walls are also for fighting the front line of your enemy. Heavy Cavalry is actually meant to break up shield walls among other things. Then again certain pikes are meant to break up shield walls, or breach them entirely. None of real life mechanics really fit in the game unfortunately, but it would be cool if they did.

Sallington

Ffastyl wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

@Kaliki I see the damage of Blazing Shield as a unique aspect for Templars. Where Dragonknights have their Reflective Scales to reflect projectiles, Templars have Blazing Shield to reflect melee.

If by reflect you mean "turn enemy attacks into a bowl of spaghetti and dump it on their head". The shield strength is negligible and the damage returned to the attacker is weaker, and much less delicious, than dumping a bowl of spaghetti on their heads.

Whenever I see a Templar spamming Blazing Shield on my nightblade, I giggle while continuing to spam surprise attack while my Rally HoT takes care of the damage from Blazing Shield.

In its current state, yes. What Kaliki and I are referring to is if we buffed the shield component, which would indirectly buff the damage component.

Oh, absolutely agree with that.

I miss the days when I would dive a group while spamming Blazing Shield, and saw the people who new what they were doing get the hell out of there while everyone else killed themselves. nostalgia tears

dodgehopper_ESO

Kaliki wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

Having Sun Shield as Health based would give Stamina a defense if buffed. Converting it to Magicka will make the Magicka/Stamina parity for Templar very similar to the parity for Sorcerers. Instead of taking an option away from Stamina Templars, double the base and bonus percentages for Sun Shield, 60% and 10% respectively. It may make it overpowered for PvE but such a buff will restore it to the usable shape we had for PvP prior to 1.6.

I agree that Sun Shield should stay equally useful for Stamina and Magicka Templars.

In my beady eyes Sun Shield is a defensive spell. I believe the reason it is so underpowered now lies with its damage component scaling with shield strength, you cannot buff it without risking the damage becoming too much.

If damage would be a fixed value or if it got replaced/coupled with a knockback or disorient it could become a powerful shield again and no matter how high you scale the shield value with magicka/health/stamina, you wouldn't have Templars kill people with a shield like it used to be possible for an awefully short while long, long ago.

This is a fair point, and one I've thought as well.

dodgehopper_ESO

Sallington wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

@Kaliki I see the damage of Blazing Shield as a unique aspect for Templars. Where Dragonknights have their Reflective Scales to reflect projectiles, Templars have Blazing Shield to reflect melee.

If by reflect you mean "turn enemy attacks into a bowl of spaghetti and dump it on their head". The shield strength is negligible and the damage returned to the attacker is weaker, and much less delicious, than dumping a bowl of spaghetti on their heads.

Whenever I see a Templar spamming Blazing Shield on my nightblade, I giggle while continuing to spam surprise attack while my Rally HoT takes care of the damage from Blazing Shield.

True but he's speaking to intent of the design.

dodgehopper_ESO

Sallington wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

@Kaliki I see the damage of Blazing Shield as a unique aspect for Templars. Where Dragonknights have their Reflective Scales to reflect projectiles, Templars have Blazing Shield to reflect melee.

If by reflect you mean "turn enemy attacks into a bowl of spaghetti and dump it on their head". The shield strength is negligible and the damage returned to the attacker is weaker, and much less delicious, than dumping a bowl of spaghetti on their heads.

Whenever I see a Templar spamming Blazing Shield on my nightblade, I giggle while continuing to spam surprise attack while my Rally HoT takes care of the damage from Blazing Shield.

In its current state, yes. What Kaliki and I are referring to is if we buffed the shield component, which would indirectly buff the damage component.

Oh, absolutely agree with that.

I miss the days when I would dive a group while spamming Blazing Shield, and saw the people who new what they were doing get the hell out of there while everyone else killed themselves. nostalgia tears

It destroyed my build when they nerfed this, and then they got rid of blinding flashes, and then they nerfed blocking, and now they're nerfing shield bash. There are more things than this which have damaged my build directly, and very little has actually benefited the play-style despite it never having been overpowered to begin with. Everything about my original Templar's concept has been destroyed. I can't think of one ability where I look at it and think 'Oh yes, that's better than when I started the game.'

wayfarerx

That was a very thorough and insightful post @Joy_Division, well done. You've summed up years of frustration with the Templar class in a concise and direct assessment and your suggested fixes seem like they would bring some nice utility to the class without being over powered.

@Wrobel, your customers are doing your job for you and paying for the privilege no less. The least you could do would be to pop in here and thank them for their efforts, even if you have every intention of ignoring them.

timidobserver

@Joy_Division
Your post looks good to me. The only thing you missed is the devaluing of the Master Ritualist and Battle Resurrection passives. For me, it isn't about losing the ress speed. It is about value being removed but no value being added. I don't really care about the gear set because gear is easily exchanged, but it is kind of disappointing to have the value of passives reduced for only our class. Congratulations, you made a Templar, so you get less out of this extremely time consuming passive than everyone else. To fix it, I'd like to see some sort of buff added to Master Ritualist to compensate for the nerf or make only Kagrenacs multiplicative and leave Master Ritualist additive.

CP5

Sallington wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

@Kaliki I see the damage of Blazing Shield as a unique aspect for Templars. Where Dragonknights have their Reflective Scales to reflect projectiles, Templars have Blazing Shield to reflect melee.

If by reflect you mean "turn enemy attacks into a bowl of spaghetti and dump it on their head". The shield strength is negligible and the damage returned to the attacker is weaker, and much less delicious, than dumping a bowl of spaghetti on their heads.

Whenever I see a Templar spamming Blazing Shield on my nightblade, I giggle while continuing to spam surprise attack while my Rally HoT takes care of the damage from Blazing Shield.

In its current state, yes. What Kaliki and I are referring to is if we buffed the shield component, which would indirectly buff the damage component.

Oh, absolutely agree with that.

I miss the days when I would dive a group while spamming Blazing Shield, and saw the people who new what they were doing get the hell out of there while everyone else killed themselves. nostalgia tears

Back when templars had this I made it a goal to stay away from them. Templars were a threat. To be fair part of that was from how the shield was storing excess damage, but the idea is what mattered, I haven't felt the threat of being near an enemy templar in a long time.

david.haypreub18_ESO

FENGRUSH wrote:

You want to see FENGRUSH slay it on a templar? EZ - Ill show off stam and magicka templar play soon! Ive played both with topend builds - just not on stream.

FENGRUSH, you could go from one of the most hated men in the Templar community to a folk hero to Templars everywhere if you did that. Simply play a Templar in competitive PvP and stream about some of your experiences. I think we'd all support you; at least someone would be talking about Templars.

Are you up for the challenge @FENGRUSH ?