OP Poisons = The Death of Small Scale PVP in Cyrodiil with DB

Dagoth_Rac

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I also still don't know if Argonians and Bosmer racial passives influence the effectiveness of incoming poisons.

Those only affect the poison damage type. So if a "poison" does 2000 poison damage/second, reduces movement speed by 50%, and increases stamina costs by 60%, the Argonian and Bosmer racial passives will mitigate the 2000 poison damage/second but I don't think they have any impact on the last 2 effects. I really think ZOS should have called these new weapon-slotted items "toxins" or something instead of poisons. It is going to create a lot of confusion between weapon-slotted "poisons" that you craft with alchemy and the "poison damage type".

InvitationNotFound

blur wrote: »

Everything they can do... You can do also.
Before poisons they still had more healing. They still had more damage. They had more skills, siege, ult, purge. FFS stop crying. So they added poisons... ok? It's still flat across the board, nothing has changed.


Zergs will always be at an advantage.

Nothing has changed.

The sky is not falling, stop crying please nothing has changed.
This doesn't affect smart gankers at all.

wtf? is this sarcasm? did you check it on pts? do you even play pvp? what kind of **** is this? Just another zergling in need of a bigger advantage?

There are so many broken things / mechanics and now they add this **** to it and you're here defending this? I mean seriously, either you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about right now or i have to congratulate you for your trolling.

RoamingRiverElk

The resource drain poisons are insanely OP. Automatic wins for people who like to zerg other people down.

Small group PvP will die if this goes to live. No, I'm not counting pure ganking builds of insta-kill + escape (and hey, aren't THOSE fun!).

60% is way too much. If there really, really, really has to be such a poison, limit it to 10%. 15% at most.

I want to keep playing this game, but these changes will make small group play impossible.

Sallington

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

And let's not forget there's already a 10% cost increase of skills in DB.

WHY?

Like just randomly for funsies? Here they are making the terrible champion system more and more mandatory.

More power creep. If only we would have predicted that the CP system would cause power creep...

It's amazing how much time they've spent balancing around a system we didn't need in the first place.

This is why the champion systems needs to provide utility (mount speed, gold gains, crafting boosts) and NOT COMBAT BUFFS (+regen, +dmg, + resistances)

Justice31st

I agree, imagine fighting a zerg of bow users with posion. LOL... Bad move by ZOS. They buffed zergs again! @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

Lava_Croft

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I also still don't know if Argonians and Bosmer racial passives influence the effectiveness of incoming poisons.

Those only affect the poison damage type. So if a "poison" does 2000 poison damage/second, reduces movement speed by 50%, and increases stamina costs by 60%, the Argonian and Bosmer racial passives will mitigate the 2000 poison damage/second but I don't think they have any impact on the last 2 effects. I really think ZOS should have called these new weapon-slotted items "toxins" or something instead of poisons. It is going to create a lot of confusion between weapon-slotted "poisons" that you craft with alchemy and the "poison damage type".

Thanks. Poison that doesn't care about poison resistance. Good job ZOS.

Paraflex

You need to have a way to deal with people who have infinite resources and can dodge roll for ever. This is a way ZOS is dealing with the CP issue that was created. Although it effects small scale pvp you will have to adjust builds and maybe add a few buddies. I don't think 60% is the right amount for resource increase costs but well see after a few months into the patch if its a good thing.

Lava_Croft

It's sad that the ZOS way of trying to solve the problems they created themselves is by introducing more problems.

Minno

Sallington wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

And let's not forget there's already a 10% cost increase of skills in DB.

WHY?

Like just randomly for funsies? Here they are making the terrible champion system more and more mandatory.

More power creep. If only we would have predicted that the CP system would cause power creep...

It's amazing how much time they've spent balancing around a system we didn't need in the first place.

This is why the champion systems needs to provide utility (mount speed, gold gains, crafting boosts) and NOT COMBAT BUFFS (+regen, +dmg, + resistances)

I've said something similar except it still dealt with combat. I'll try to link my last comment I posted in another thread, if I can find it lol)

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Lava_Croft wrote: »

It's sad that the ZOS way of trying to solve the problems they created themselves is by introducing more problems.

Well, they've done that for over two years now, can't really say we're suprised anymore. All we can do really is be disappointed/angry and either hope for the best or leave the game. I've just about done the latter, game just isn't fun anymore with zenimax breaking the game more and more each and every patch they do.

InvitationNotFound

Paraflex wrote: »

You need to have a way to deal with people who have infinite resources and can dodge roll for ever. This is a way ZOS is dealing with the CP issue that was created. Although it effects small scale pvp you will have to adjust builds and maybe add a few buddies. I don't think 60% is the right amount for resource increase costs but well see after a few months into the patch if its a good thing.

maybe they solve the performance / lag issues at the same time or at least the complaints about it. the more you are and the more you spam a single button the less you suffer from the lag / performance issues and well... many of the other players that are complaining might simply leave...

it is another **** bandaid fix. there is simply no justification for "we'll see after a few months into...". even a blind man could see that it is a mess from reading patch notes, forums and pts. A few months with this **** and more players will leave, what stays are the zerglings. enjoy...

Thraben

I almost always fight with 3-12 players, is it Small Scale?

If yes, I really like the poisons. It is simply a L2P issue here, especially for healers. What is wrong with a fight that lasts for more than 10 seconds (if the first strike fails) because players have to save their ressources for healing or important skills? Ok, less AP, but so what? Better a good, challenging long fight than bomb->run, bomb->run.

Furthermore, huge zergs can´t enforce the use of poisons among their PUG players, and because it takes time and money to make them, they won´t use it consistently.

Survivability builds are hit hard by poisons, however, so I can understand the anger; but most of them are solo players or groups of gankers anyway, so it´s THEIR playstyle that ist threatened, not the playstyle of small raids.

PurifedBladez

Idk man.. we didn't need poisons. No one was really begging for them.

Just go *** yourself ZoS. You suck.

It's insane, constantly jacking up one thing or the other. Making something op and, normal abilities useless. Constant cycle of bs.

I wish XB1 had a wider mmo selection.

InvitationNotFound

Thraben wrote: »

I almost always fight with 3-12 players, is it Small Scale?

If yes, I really like the poisons. It is simply a L2P issue here, especially for healers. What is wrong with a fight that lasts for more than 10 seconds (if the first strike fails) because players have to save their ressources for healing or important skills? Ok, less AP, but so what? Better a good, challenging long fight than bomb->run, bomb->run.

you most likely will see it way differently once it hits live and you realize you're even more ****ed then before against bigger and or organized (as you say: bomb->run, bomb->run) groups. enjoy your fights with 3 ppl with those changes smh...

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

PurifedBladez wrote: »

Idk man.. we didn't need poisons. No one was really begging for them.

Just go *** yourself ZoS. You suck.

It's insane, constantly jacking up one thing or the other. Making something op and, normal abilities useless. Constant cycle of bs.

I wish XB1 had a wider mmo selection.

Just don't pay them any money at all, hurt them where it counts. Lets watch them either change things in good ways or they'll just have to come crashing down when noone pays them for their dumb decisions.

Makkir

I can't decide between the spell dmg enchant or the stamina drain poison, likely the latter. I just can't believe something like that immoveable poison is being allowed in Cyrodiil. Unbelievable.

Fruity_Ninja

Is it really going live in this state?

Feels like they want you to either build for extreme burst, or stick with zergs. Patch after patch just kills off the gloss the PVP in this game has had.

I don't think they have heard of 'incremental', everything from new released abilities/features, to buffs and nerfs, all start off at the extreme end of the spectrum.

Rohaus

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

I see one problem in this thread. Not once have I read .."I went on PTS and tested poison". Your complaints are mere conjecture. How do you expect anyone really to take you seriously, let alone zenimax if you havent put in the work to see what is actually going on. Players have to make a choice of whether they are going to use poisons or weapon enchants they cannot use both. Weapon enchants have gotten a major buff in db to put them on par with poison. It's very hard to say where the zerg dynamic is actually going to go this next patch. I like small scall pvp and i'll probably go to IC this next coming patch due to the district changes

I must say that I completely agree with this assessment! Not even streamers have posted any videos of duels while using poisons... least non that I can find.

It's always the sky is falling the sky is falling with these people.

Certainly, on the surface, it looks like poisons will be quite powerful... but honestly, if WE the players are not willing to get on PTS and test these radical new changes and additions out, how can we complain and expect to be heard?

It's not like it is that hard to get on PTS and give your character the very best gear etc. to test these things out... PTS offers everything and then some to test out. It's actually pretty cool the fact that you can test out builds, theorycraft etc. all for free!

Ajax_22

Rohaus wrote: »

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

I see one problem in this thread. Not once have I read .."I went on PTS and tested poison". Your complaints are mere conjecture. How do you expect anyone really to take you seriously, let alone zenimax if you havent put in the work to see what is actually going on. Players have to make a choice of whether they are going to use poisons or weapon enchants they cannot use both. Weapon enchants have gotten a major buff in db to put them on par with poison. It's very hard to say where the zerg dynamic is actually going to go this next patch. I like small scall pvp and i'll probably go to IC this next coming patch due to the district changes

I must say that I completely agree with this assessment! Not even streamers have posted any videos of duels while using poisons... least non that I can find.

It's always the sky is falling the sky is falling with these people.

Certainly, on the surface, it looks like poisons will be quite powerful... but honestly, if WE the players are not willing to get on PTS and test these radical new changes and additions out, how can we complain and expect to be heard?

It's not like it is that hard to get on PTS and give your character the very best gear etc. to test these things out... PTS offers everything and then some to test out. It's actually pretty cool the fact that you can test out builds, theorycraft etc. all for free!

Just because someone doesn't start their post with "I tested poison" doesn't mean they didn't. There were plenty of people testing the poisons when the PTS first came out, back when the poisons were 30%. During that testing most of us agreed that the drain poisons were way to strong.

@rich.magab14a_ESO Weapon enchants don't even come close to matching the damage out put of a pure damage poison, and their utility is unmatched in PvP. If you're running trials for VMA for scores you won't get the top spots if you are using weapon enchants over poisons. Same thing if you're running small PvP groups. The poisons give large groups another huge mechanical advantage over you, and if you think the zergs won't come into IC you're crazy.

Rohaus

@Ajax_22 It is a fairly easy thing to do these days that is video capturing... ShadowPlay makes it so darn easy... with that being said, how come not a single person has shown a video demonstrating the power of poisons?

Heck, if anyone is interested in doing this... I would be more than happy to setup some duels with anyone that is interested and capture video and then post it.

Now, keep in mind, as it has been stated countless times... dueling is not indicative of true PvP in ESO... but it certainly could go a long way towards determining just how OP it really is.

There is so much unknown in terms of REAL world performance with regards to many of the changes that are coming our way from DB. Time will tell... but I gotta believe that if poisons are truly out of whack... ZOS would do something fairly quickly... especially if something is game breaking.

hrothbern

Rohaus wrote: »

@Ajax_22 It is a fairly easy thing to do these days that is video capturing... ShadowPlay makes it so darn easy... with that being said, how come not a single person has shown a video demonstrating the power of poisons?

Heck, if anyone is interested in doing this... I would be more than happy to setup some duels with anyone that is interested and capture video and then post it.

Now, keep in mind, as it has been stated countless times... dueling is not indicative of true PvP in ESO... but it certainly could go a long way towards determining just how OP it really is.

There is so much unknown in terms of REAL world performance with regards to many of the changes that are coming our way from DB. Time will tell... but I gotta believe that if poisons are truly out of whack... ZOS would do something fairly quickly... especially if something is game breaking.

There is so much unknown in terms of REAL world performance with regards to many of the changes that are coming our way from DB. Time will tell... but I gotta believe that if poisons are truly out of whack... ZOS would do something fairly quickly... especially if something is game breaking

Is my guess as well.

Some things you can only really test out on live and be ready to respond fast.

What I do however miss in above posts is some more factual info of the changes on PTS.
I read all the time this 30% going up to 60% and about many effects of these poisons.
But I just made some poisons, and the more kind of effects, the shorter the duration of these effects

And having debuffs in place for Resource Sustain is in my opinion a good way to get some more root balancing in the game.
This game should imo not be an "unlimited ammo" game.
You have to make choices between more sustain or higher DPS.

Justice31st

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

It's sad that the ZOS way of trying to solve the problems they created themselves is by introducing more problems.

Well, they've done that for over two years now, can't really say we're suprised anymore. All we can do really is be disappointed/angry and either hope for the best or leave the game. I've just about done the latter, game just isn't fun anymore with zenimax breaking the game more and more each and every patch they do.

I agree. If these poisons go live, this will be the final nail in the coffin for me. They forced us to run destro/resto staff for magicka regen due to the resource drain from poisons. I have never seen this kind of resource management issues in an MMO before, this is a really idiotic concept. @ZOS_GinaBruno @Zos_Finn @Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

PurifedBladez

I just wanna smack someone at ZoS. They deserve it.

Ajax_22

Rohaus wrote: »

@Ajax_22 It is a fairly easy thing to do these days that is video capturing... ShadowPlay makes it so darn easy... with that being said, how come not a single person has shown a video demonstrating the power of poisons?

Heck, if anyone is interested in doing this... I would be more than happy to setup some duels with anyone that is interested and capture video and then post it.

Now, keep in mind, as it has been stated countless times... dueling is not indicative of true PvP in ESO... but it certainly could go a long way towards determining just how OP it really is.

There is so much unknown in terms of REAL world performance with regards to many of the changes that are coming our way from DB. Time will tell... but I gotta believe that if poisons are truly out of whack... ZOS would do something fairly quickly... especially if something is game breaking.

There are videos out there of people having poisons used against them. However, somethings you just can't show in a video; this is one of them. There is no good indication of when you've been hit by a drain poison, and most of the time the person playing doesn't even realize they had it on them until over half their resources are gone. This is just one of those changes you have to go and feel for yourself.

While dueling may not be indicative of open world PvP it does provide the best forum to show the base effectiveness of changes such as this. From the experience we've had with using poisons in duels we can determine, pretty accurately, how poisons will affect PvP as group size starts to differ.

I think you have way to much faith in ZOS. Very rarely do they fix things quickly. More often than not they apply a band aid fix, or make them worse at least once before they actually fix it. There are plenty of pretty game breaking things that have taken ZOS over half a year to fix.

hrothbern wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

@Ajax_22 It is a fairly easy thing to do these days that is video capturing... ShadowPlay makes it so darn easy... with that being said, how come not a single person has shown a video demonstrating the power of poisons?

Heck, if anyone is interested in doing this... I would be more than happy to setup some duels with anyone that is interested and capture video and then post it.

Now, keep in mind, as it has been stated countless times... dueling is not indicative of true PvP in ESO... but it certainly could go a long way towards determining just how OP it really is.

There is so much unknown in terms of REAL world performance with regards to many of the changes that are coming our way from DB. Time will tell... but I gotta believe that if poisons are truly out of whack... ZOS would do something fairly quickly... especially if something is game breaking.

What I do however miss in above posts is some more factual info of the changes on PTS.
I read all the time this 30% going up to 60% and about many effects of these poisons.
But I just made some poisons, and the more kind of effects, the shorter the duration of these effects

And having debuffs in place for Resource Sustain is in my opinion a good way to get some more root balancing in the game.
This game should imo not be an "unlimited ammo" game.
You have to make choices between more sustain or higher DPS.

Yes the more effects you add the shorter the duration, and poisons have a 10 second coolown. However, being hit with the same effect will refresh the duration, and you could have every poison effect on you at the same time. ZOS needs to get the infinite resource problem under control. You don't do that by sometimes making somethings cost 60% more for some people, compounded by group size. You get sustain under control by chaining Battle Spirit or the Champion Point system so that it affects everyone equally at all times. In their current state drain poison are just another mechanical advantage large groups will get over small groups.

Rohamad_Ali

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Still silence? Not even a response? They can't be really going to put these in the game PVP like this....are they?

This still surprises you ?

This is why I don't bother writing long detailed posts anymore . My energy is better wasted on prepping for Armageddon . I'm still short a hepa air filter and a ham radio . Just in case that's laying around your place .

Gamerscape2007

So I heard that they gave out bs explanation on why 60% Poison cost is here to stay on eso live. Someone here care to explain exactly what they said?

Fruity_Ninja

Looks like they are happy with the state of poisons, going by ESO Live comments.

Wrobel said "we can always tone them down".

hrothbern

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

@Ajax_22 It is a fairly easy thing to do these days that is video capturing... ShadowPlay makes it so darn easy... with that being said, how come not a single person has shown a video demonstrating the power of poisons?

Heck, if anyone is interested in doing this... I would be more than happy to setup some duels with anyone that is interested and capture video and then post it.

Now, keep in mind, as it has been stated countless times... dueling is not indicative of true PvP in ESO... but it certainly could go a long way towards determining just how OP it really is.

There is so much unknown in terms of REAL world performance with regards to many of the changes that are coming our way from DB. Time will tell... but I gotta believe that if poisons are truly out of whack... ZOS would do something fairly quickly... especially if something is game breaking.

There are videos out there of people having poisons used against them. However, somethings you just can't show in a video; this is one of them. There is no good indication of when you've been hit by a drain poison, and most of the time the person playing doesn't even realize they had it on them until over half their resources are gone. This is just one of those changes you have to go and feel for yourself.

While dueling may not be indicative of open world PvP it does provide the best forum to show the base effectiveness of changes such as this. From the experience we've had with using poisons in duels we can determine, pretty accurately, how poisons will affect PvP as group size starts to differ.

I think you have way to much faith in ZOS. Very rarely do they fix things quickly. More often than not they apply a band aid fix, or make them worse at least once before they actually fix it. There are plenty of pretty game breaking things that have taken ZOS over half a year to fix.

hrothbern wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

@Ajax_22 It is a fairly easy thing to do these days that is video capturing... ShadowPlay makes it so darn easy... with that being said, how come not a single person has shown a video demonstrating the power of poisons?

Heck, if anyone is interested in doing this... I would be more than happy to setup some duels with anyone that is interested and capture video and then post it.

Now, keep in mind, as it has been stated countless times... dueling is not indicative of true PvP in ESO... but it certainly could go a long way towards determining just how OP it really is.

There is so much unknown in terms of REAL world performance with regards to many of the changes that are coming our way from DB. Time will tell... but I gotta believe that if poisons are truly out of whack... ZOS would do something fairly quickly... especially if something is game breaking.

What I do however miss in above posts is some more factual info of the changes on PTS.
I read all the time this 30% going up to 60% and about many effects of these poisons.
But I just made some poisons, and the more kind of effects, the shorter the duration of these effects

And having debuffs in place for Resource Sustain is in my opinion a good way to get some more root balancing in the game.
This game should imo not be an "unlimited ammo" game.
You have to make choices between more sustain or higher DPS.

Yes the more effects you add the shorter the duration, and poisons have a 10 second coolown. However, being hit with the same effect will refresh the duration, and you could have every poison effect on you at the same time. ZOS needs to get the infinite resource problem under control. You don't do that by sometimes making somethings cost 60% more for some people, compounded by group size. You get sustain under control by chaining Battle Spirit or the Champion Point system so that it affects everyone equally at all times. In their current state drain poison are just another mechanical advantage large groups will get over small groups.

@Ajax_22 ,
you say: ".....and poisons have a 10 second coolown. However, being hit with the same effect will refresh the duration, and ...."

I do not understand EXACTLY what you say there.

For the simple 1vs1 duel case and I use only LA:
Say I use a Stamina & Magicka drain poison (that has a 6.4 second duration and a 10 seconds Cooldown).....
The way I understand the tooltip of the poison is:
after 6.4 seconds my enemy is not affected anymore with the poison, and "enjoys" 3.6 seconds normal costs. And after 10 seconds, the Cooldown, I have again a 20% chance that my hits will proc the poison. So on average I need 5 hits to get a poison proc again, taking on average 5 seconds.

So "overall" every 15 seconds, I have a proc and the enemy is 6.4/15 = 43% of that time affected by drain.

Do I understand you correctly that you can refresh the duration with a proc within that 6.4 seconds ?

Panth141

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

So I heard that they gave out bs explanation on why 60% Poison cost is here to stay on eso live. Someone here care to explain exactly what they said?

Here's a transcript of the related comments, make your own judgement! Key points in bold:

GB = Gina Bruno, Community Manager
JF = Jessica Folsom, Community Manager
CB = Chris Balser, Systems Engineer
EW = Eric Wrobel, Lead Combat Designer

CB: One of the things that we've noticed from players' feedback on the PTS forums is that there's a lot of concerns over specific combinations for poisons... specifically drains... specifically drain magicka and drain stamina.

EW: Yeah, they're really strong

CB: They're very strong and they're very contentious. Players have a lot of concerns about them.

...

EW: Well... I can talk a little bit about that.

JF: Specifically the 30% increased to 60%

GB: Well, I think it always was intended to be 60%, from what I understand at least.

EW: Yeah, well part of it was the up-time, right? Because when it was at 30% there was also no or a very short cooldown, so you could just keep that value up on the target all the time. Now there's a 10 second cooldown on the poisons and there's the 20% proc rate, so you're not going to have that poison on the target every single minute - and additionally you're going to be fighting targets of magicka and stamina, right, so if you want to put both on your weapon then you have the dilution effect.

CB: Right, it'll go from a maximum of 10 seconds in the case of a ravage magicka or stamina down to a maximum of roughly 6 [seconds]

EW: Yeah, so you know, if you're trying to stop both their resources at the same time then yeah it's kind of back down to that 30% basically because it's only up half the time. Also we wanted poisons to be impactful, and we wanted them to have people make interesting strategic choices, so you're picking 'do I want to have a poison or an enchantment that's going to be really good for burst damage to kill the guy really fast, or do I want one that will help me sustain and live really long, or do I want to try and drain this guy and run him out of resources in a long battle?'

i]Discussion of possible combinations and enchanting buffs[/i

GB: So, the 60% value that everyone's seeing on PTS, I assume that's what we're going live with?

EW: Yeah, and in general we wanted it to be powerful and impactful in battles, and we can always scale it down later if it seems like it's too much, but like additionally people have ways to cleanse and get debuffs off them

CB: That's worth observing - poisons are completely subject to purges.

EW: Yeah, so... we will certainly be monitoring feedback and reduce them if need be, but we wanted to make sure in 1vs1 duelling and resources in general were a factor in combat. And often times in PvP it's a very short, bursty fight, right? Because if a lot of people hit one guy at the same time he's likely to die very quickly. So in that case, having a drain isn't going to do anything because you died before you had time for your resources to even run out, right? So it may be better for you to get a more defensive poison, potentially, depending on what types of combat you're getting into.

...

CB: ... so, poisons don't have large single hits, that's solely the domain of enchanting; poisons trigger all of their damage done over time

...

EW: We didn't want you to do the whole 10 seconds of damage as soon as you hit the guy

[Live tester later dies in PvP with a 16k poison damage on his recap - I assume that this was the cumulative damage from the DoT, but this was not acknowledged/discussed]

RoamingRiverElk

Panth141 wrote: »

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

So I heard that they gave out bs explanation on why 60% Poison cost is here to stay on eso live. Someone here care to explain exactly what they said?

Here's a transcript of the related comments, make your own judgement! Key points in bold:

GB = Gina Bruno, Community Manager
JF = Jessica Folsom, Community Manager
CB = Chris Balser, Systems Engineer
EW = Eric Wrobel, Lead Combat Designer

CB: One of the things that we've noticed from players' feedback on the PTS forums is that there's a lot of concerns over specific combinations for poisons... specifically drains... specifically drain magicka and drain stamina.

EW: Yeah, they're really strong

CB: They're very strong and they're very contentious. Players have a lot of concerns about them.

...

EW: Well... I can talk a little bit about that.

JF: Specifically the 30% increased to 60%

GB: Well, I think it always was intended to be 60%, from what I understand at least.

EW: Yeah, well part of it was the up-time, right? Because when it was at 30% there was also no or a very short cooldown, so you could just keep that value up on the target all the time. Now there's a 10 second cooldown on the poisons and there's the 20% proc rate, so you're not going to have that poison on the target every single minute - and additionally you're going to be fighting targets of magicka and stamina, right, so if you want to put both on your weapon then you have the dilution effect.

CB: Right, it'll go from a maximum of 10 seconds in the case of a ravage magicka or stamina down to a maximum of roughly 6 [seconds]

EW: Yeah, so you know, if you're trying to stop both their resources at the same time then yeah it's kind of back down to that 30% basically because it's only up half the time. Also we wanted poisons to be impactful, and we wanted them to have people make interesting strategic choices, so you're picking 'do I want to have a poison or an enchantment that's going to be really good for burst damage to kill the guy really fast, or do I want one that will help me sustain and live really long, or do I want to try and drain this guy and run him out of resources in a long battle?'

i]Discussion of possible combinations and enchanting buffs[/i

GB: So, the 60% value that everyone's seeing on PTS, I assume that's what we're going live with?

EW: Yeah, and in general we wanted it to be powerful and impactful in battles, and we can always scale it down later if it seems like it's too much, but like additionally people have ways to cleanse and get debuffs off them

CB: That's worth observing - poisons are completely subject to purges.

EW: Yeah, so... we will certainly be monitoring feedback and reduce them if need be, but we wanted to make sure in 1vs1 duelling and resources in general were a factor in combat. And often times in PvP it's a very short, bursty fight, right? Because if a lot of people hit one guy at the same time he's likely to die very quickly. So in that case, having a drain isn't going to do anything because you died before you had time for your resources to even run out, right? So it may be better for you to get a more defensive poison, potentially, depending on what types of combat you're getting into.

...

CB: ... so, poisons don't have large single hits, that's solely the domain of enchanting; poisons trigger all of their damage done over time

...

EW: We didn't want you to do the whole 10 seconds of damage as soon as you hit the guy

[Live tester later dies in PvP with a 16k poison damage on his recap - I assume that this was the cumulative damage from the DoT, but this was not acknowledged/discussed]

"EW: Yeah, so... we will certainly be monitoring feedback and reduce them if need be, but we wanted to make sure in 1vs1 duelling and resources in general were a factor in combat. And often times in PvP it's a very short, bursty fight, right? Because if a lot of people hit one guy at the same time he's likely to die very quickly. So in that case, having a drain isn't going to do anything because you died before you had time for your resources to even run out, right? So it may be better for you to get a more defensive poison, potentially, depending on what types of combat you're getting into."

So in other words, we don't care that you're going to be having even less of a chance to survive now, because hey, most people already die very quickly when they're hit by multiple people. We have no problem with that, numbers should matter. We care strictly about 1v1, 5v5, 24v24, 48v48. You can spec to one specific burst build if you want to fight outnumbered - it's called vicious death max damage build for nightblades. Just run with a big group already, it's FUN! I'm telling you it is!

How silly of us to have thought skill should have a place in Cyrodiil beyond whether we choose poison A or poison B.