OP Poisons = The Death of Small Scale PVP in Cyrodiil with DB

Ajax_22

hrothbern wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

@Ajax_22 It is a fairly easy thing to do these days that is video capturing... ShadowPlay makes it so darn easy... with that being said, how come not a single person has shown a video demonstrating the power of poisons?

Heck, if anyone is interested in doing this... I would be more than happy to setup some duels with anyone that is interested and capture video and then post it.

Now, keep in mind, as it has been stated countless times... dueling is not indicative of true PvP in ESO... but it certainly could go a long way towards determining just how OP it really is.

There is so much unknown in terms of REAL world performance with regards to many of the changes that are coming our way from DB. Time will tell... but I gotta believe that if poisons are truly out of whack... ZOS would do something fairly quickly... especially if something is game breaking.

There are videos out there of people having poisons used against them. However, somethings you just can't show in a video; this is one of them. There is no good indication of when you've been hit by a drain poison, and most of the time the person playing doesn't even realize they had it on them until over half their resources are gone. This is just one of those changes you have to go and feel for yourself.

While dueling may not be indicative of open world PvP it does provide the best forum to show the base effectiveness of changes such as this. From the experience we've had with using poisons in duels we can determine, pretty accurately, how poisons will affect PvP as group size starts to differ.

I think you have way to much faith in ZOS. Very rarely do they fix things quickly. More often than not they apply a band aid fix, or make them worse at least once before they actually fix it. There are plenty of pretty game breaking things that have taken ZOS over half a year to fix.

hrothbern wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

@Ajax_22 It is a fairly easy thing to do these days that is video capturing... ShadowPlay makes it so darn easy... with that being said, how come not a single person has shown a video demonstrating the power of poisons?

Heck, if anyone is interested in doing this... I would be more than happy to setup some duels with anyone that is interested and capture video and then post it.

Now, keep in mind, as it has been stated countless times... dueling is not indicative of true PvP in ESO... but it certainly could go a long way towards determining just how OP it really is.

There is so much unknown in terms of REAL world performance with regards to many of the changes that are coming our way from DB. Time will tell... but I gotta believe that if poisons are truly out of whack... ZOS would do something fairly quickly... especially if something is game breaking.

What I do however miss in above posts is some more factual info of the changes on PTS.
I read all the time this 30% going up to 60% and about many effects of these poisons.
But I just made some poisons, and the more kind of effects, the shorter the duration of these effects

And having debuffs in place for Resource Sustain is in my opinion a good way to get some more root balancing in the game.
This game should imo not be an "unlimited ammo" game.
You have to make choices between more sustain or higher DPS.

Yes the more effects you add the shorter the duration, and poisons have a 10 second coolown. However, being hit with the same effect will refresh the duration, and you could have every poison effect on you at the same time. ZOS needs to get the infinite resource problem under control. You don't do that by sometimes making somethings cost 60% more for some people, compounded by group size. You get sustain under control by chaining Battle Spirit or the Champion Point system so that it affects everyone equally at all times. In their current state drain poison are just another mechanical advantage large groups will get over small groups.

@Ajax_22 ,
you say: ".....and poisons have a 10 second coolown. However, being hit with the same effect will refresh the duration, and ...."

I do not understand EXACTLY what you say there.

For the simple 1vs1 duel case and I use only LA:
Say I use a Stamina & Magicka drain poison (that has a 6.4 second duration and a 10 seconds Cooldown).....
The way I understand the tooltip of the poison is:
after 6.4 seconds my enemy is not affected anymore with the poison, and "enjoys" 3.6 seconds normal costs. And after 10 seconds, the Cooldown, I have again a 20% chance that my hits will proc the poison. So on average I need 5 hits to get a poison proc again, taking on average 5 seconds.

So "overall" every 15 seconds, I have a proc and the enemy is 6.4/15 = 43% of that time affected by drain.

Do I understand you correctly that you can refresh the duration with a proc within that 6.4 seconds ?

In a 1v1 situation you cannot refresh the poison due to the 10 second cooldown. However, in a 2v1 situation, for example, if enemy A and B are both using the exact same Stam and Magic drain poison they can refresh the duration. So enemy A hits you with poison that last 6.4 seconds at the start of the fight. When you have 1 second left on the poison debuff enemy B hits you with the same poison resetting the debuff back to 6.4 seconds. They could keep this indefinitely with minimal communication, and a simple addon, once they are made. locking you at 60% cost increase until they ultimately kill you with their new easy button.

hrothbern

Panth141 wrote: »

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

So I heard that they gave out bs explanation on why 60% Poison cost is here to stay on eso live. Someone here care to explain exactly what they said?

Here's a transcript of the related comments, make your own judgement! Key points in bold:

GB = Gina Bruno, Community Manager
JF = Jessica Folsom, Community Manager
CB = Chris Balser, Systems Engineer
EW = Eric Wrobel, Lead Combat Designer

CB: One of the things that we've noticed from players' feedback on the PTS forums is that there's a lot of concerns over specific combinations for poisons... specifically drains... specifically drain magicka and drain stamina.

EW: Yeah, they're really strong

CB: They're very strong and they're very contentious. Players have a lot of concerns about them.

...

EW: Well... I can talk a little bit about that.

JF: Specifically the 30% increased to 60%

GB: Well, I think it always was intended to be 60%, from what I understand at least.

EW: Yeah, well part of it was the up-time, right? Because when it was at 30% there was also no or a very short cooldown, so you could just keep that value up on the target all the time. Now there's a 10 second cooldown on the poisons and there's the 20% proc rate, so you're not going to have that poison on the target every single minute - and additionally you're going to be fighting targets of magicka and stamina, right, so if you want to put both on your weapon then you have the dilution effect.

CB: Right, it'll go from a maximum of 10 seconds in the case of a ravage magicka or stamina down to a maximum of roughly 6 [seconds]

EW: Yeah, so you know, if you're trying to stop both their resources at the same time then yeah it's kind of back down to that 30% basically because it's only up half the time. Also we wanted poisons to be impactful, and we wanted them to have people make interesting strategic choices, so you're picking 'do I want to have a poison or an enchantment that's going to be really good for burst damage to kill the guy really fast, or do I want one that will help me sustain and live really long, or do I want to try and drain this guy and run him out of resources in a long battle?'

i]Discussion of possible combinations and enchanting buffs[/i

GB: So, the 60% value that everyone's seeing on PTS, I assume that's what we're going live with?

EW: Yeah, and in general we wanted it to be powerful and impactful in battles, and we can always scale it down later if it seems like it's too much, but like additionally people have ways to cleanse and get debuffs off them

CB: That's worth observing - poisons are completely subject to purges.

EW: Yeah, so... we will certainly be monitoring feedback and reduce them if need be, but we wanted to make sure in 1vs1 duelling and resources in general were a factor in combat. And often times in PvP it's a very short, bursty fight, right? Because if a lot of people hit one guy at the same time he's likely to die very quickly. So in that case, having a drain isn't going to do anything because you died before you had time for your resources to even run out, right? So it may be better for you to get a more defensive poison, potentially, depending on what types of combat you're getting into.

...

CB: ... so, poisons don't have large single hits, that's solely the domain of enchanting; poisons trigger all of their damage done over time

...

EW: We didn't want you to do the whole 10 seconds of damage as soon as you hit the guy

[Live tester later dies in PvP with a 16k poison damage on his recap - I assume that this was the cumulative damage from the DoT, but this was not acknowledged/discussed]

Thanks @Panth141
For getting it transcripted. More precise than my listening twice !

hrothbern

Ajax_22 wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

@Ajax_22 It is a fairly easy thing to do these days that is video capturing... ShadowPlay makes it so darn easy... with that being said, how come not a single person has shown a video demonstrating the power of poisons?

Heck, if anyone is interested in doing this... I would be more than happy to setup some duels with anyone that is interested and capture video and then post it.

Now, keep in mind, as it has been stated countless times... dueling is not indicative of true PvP in ESO... but it certainly could go a long way towards determining just how OP it really is.

There is so much unknown in terms of REAL world performance with regards to many of the changes that are coming our way from DB. Time will tell... but I gotta believe that if poisons are truly out of whack... ZOS would do something fairly quickly... especially if something is game breaking.

There are videos out there of people having poisons used against them. However, somethings you just can't show in a video; this is one of them. There is no good indication of when you've been hit by a drain poison, and most of the time the person playing doesn't even realize they had it on them until over half their resources are gone. This is just one of those changes you have to go and feel for yourself.

While dueling may not be indicative of open world PvP it does provide the best forum to show the base effectiveness of changes such as this. From the experience we've had with using poisons in duels we can determine, pretty accurately, how poisons will affect PvP as group size starts to differ.

I think you have way to much faith in ZOS. Very rarely do they fix things quickly. More often than not they apply a band aid fix, or make them worse at least once before they actually fix it. There are plenty of pretty game breaking things that have taken ZOS over half a year to fix.

hrothbern wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

@Ajax_22 It is a fairly easy thing to do these days that is video capturing... ShadowPlay makes it so darn easy... with that being said, how come not a single person has shown a video demonstrating the power of poisons?

Heck, if anyone is interested in doing this... I would be more than happy to setup some duels with anyone that is interested and capture video and then post it.

Now, keep in mind, as it has been stated countless times... dueling is not indicative of true PvP in ESO... but it certainly could go a long way towards determining just how OP it really is.

There is so much unknown in terms of REAL world performance with regards to many of the changes that are coming our way from DB. Time will tell... but I gotta believe that if poisons are truly out of whack... ZOS would do something fairly quickly... especially if something is game breaking.

What I do however miss in above posts is some more factual info of the changes on PTS.
I read all the time this 30% going up to 60% and about many effects of these poisons.
But I just made some poisons, and the more kind of effects, the shorter the duration of these effects

And having debuffs in place for Resource Sustain is in my opinion a good way to get some more root balancing in the game.
This game should imo not be an "unlimited ammo" game.
You have to make choices between more sustain or higher DPS.

Yes the more effects you add the shorter the duration, and poisons have a 10 second coolown. However, being hit with the same effect will refresh the duration, and you could have every poison effect on you at the same time. ZOS needs to get the infinite resource problem under control. You don't do that by sometimes making somethings cost 60% more for some people, compounded by group size. You get sustain under control by chaining Battle Spirit or the Champion Point system so that it affects everyone equally at all times. In their current state drain poison are just another mechanical advantage large groups will get over small groups.

@Ajax_22 ,
you say: ".....and poisons have a 10 second coolown. However, being hit with the same effect will refresh the duration, and ...."

I do not understand EXACTLY what you say there.

For the simple 1vs1 duel case and I use only LA:
Say I use a Stamina & Magicka drain poison (that has a 6.4 second duration and a 10 seconds Cooldown).....
The way I understand the tooltip of the poison is:
after 6.4 seconds my enemy is not affected anymore with the poison, and "enjoys" 3.6 seconds normal costs. And after 10 seconds, the Cooldown, I have again a 20% chance that my hits will proc the poison. So on average I need 5 hits to get a poison proc again, taking on average 5 seconds.

So "overall" every 15 seconds, I have a proc and the enemy is 6.4/15 = 43% of that time affected by drain.

Do I understand you correctly that you can refresh the duration with a proc within that 6.4 seconds ?

In a 1v1 situation you cannot refresh the poison due to the 10 second cooldown. However, in a 2v1 situation, for example, if enemy A and B are both using the exact same Stam and Magic drain poison they can refresh the duration. So enemy A hits you with poison that last 6.4 seconds at the start of the fight. When you have 1 second left on the poison debuff enemy B hits you with the same poison resetting the debuff back to 6.4 seconds. They could keep this indefinitely with minimal communication, and a simple addon, once they are made. locking you at 60% cost increase until they ultimately kill you with their new easy button.

Thanks @Ajax_22 for your clarification

I assume you have actually tested this in PTS with some mates !!!

Because if so.... The Cooldown from one Poison is not like a kind of CC immunity for other Poisons
My next question is:
Can you lock your enemy yourself if you have a drain poison on both weapons bars ?

In other words:
Apparently the game mechanics remembers for the Cooldown who/what hit him.
If it is "who" it does not help to swap weapon bar.
If it is "what" weapon, it enables locking by swapping weapons.

The next logical question would be:
If you would have a completely other poison on your other weapon bar, could that proc during the Cooldown of your first Poison when you swap weapons ?

Ajax_22

hrothbern wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

@Ajax_22 It is a fairly easy thing to do these days that is video capturing... ShadowPlay makes it so darn easy... with that being said, how come not a single person has shown a video demonstrating the power of poisons?

Heck, if anyone is interested in doing this... I would be more than happy to setup some duels with anyone that is interested and capture video and then post it.

Now, keep in mind, as it has been stated countless times... dueling is not indicative of true PvP in ESO... but it certainly could go a long way towards determining just how OP it really is.

There is so much unknown in terms of REAL world performance with regards to many of the changes that are coming our way from DB. Time will tell... but I gotta believe that if poisons are truly out of whack... ZOS would do something fairly quickly... especially if something is game breaking.

There are videos out there of people having poisons used against them. However, somethings you just can't show in a video; this is one of them. There is no good indication of when you've been hit by a drain poison, and most of the time the person playing doesn't even realize they had it on them until over half their resources are gone. This is just one of those changes you have to go and feel for yourself.

While dueling may not be indicative of open world PvP it does provide the best forum to show the base effectiveness of changes such as this. From the experience we've had with using poisons in duels we can determine, pretty accurately, how poisons will affect PvP as group size starts to differ.

I think you have way to much faith in ZOS. Very rarely do they fix things quickly. More often than not they apply a band aid fix, or make them worse at least once before they actually fix it. There are plenty of pretty game breaking things that have taken ZOS over half a year to fix.

hrothbern wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

@Ajax_22 It is a fairly easy thing to do these days that is video capturing... ShadowPlay makes it so darn easy... with that being said, how come not a single person has shown a video demonstrating the power of poisons?

Heck, if anyone is interested in doing this... I would be more than happy to setup some duels with anyone that is interested and capture video and then post it.

Now, keep in mind, as it has been stated countless times... dueling is not indicative of true PvP in ESO... but it certainly could go a long way towards determining just how OP it really is.

There is so much unknown in terms of REAL world performance with regards to many of the changes that are coming our way from DB. Time will tell... but I gotta believe that if poisons are truly out of whack... ZOS would do something fairly quickly... especially if something is game breaking.

What I do however miss in above posts is some more factual info of the changes on PTS.
I read all the time this 30% going up to 60% and about many effects of these poisons.
But I just made some poisons, and the more kind of effects, the shorter the duration of these effects

And having debuffs in place for Resource Sustain is in my opinion a good way to get some more root balancing in the game.
This game should imo not be an "unlimited ammo" game.
You have to make choices between more sustain or higher DPS.

Yes the more effects you add the shorter the duration, and poisons have a 10 second coolown. However, being hit with the same effect will refresh the duration, and you could have every poison effect on you at the same time. ZOS needs to get the infinite resource problem under control. You don't do that by sometimes making somethings cost 60% more for some people, compounded by group size. You get sustain under control by chaining Battle Spirit or the Champion Point system so that it affects everyone equally at all times. In their current state drain poison are just another mechanical advantage large groups will get over small groups.

@Ajax_22 ,
you say: ".....and poisons have a 10 second coolown. However, being hit with the same effect will refresh the duration, and ...."

I do not understand EXACTLY what you say there.

For the simple 1vs1 duel case and I use only LA:
Say I use a Stamina & Magicka drain poison (that has a 6.4 second duration and a 10 seconds Cooldown).....
The way I understand the tooltip of the poison is:
after 6.4 seconds my enemy is not affected anymore with the poison, and "enjoys" 3.6 seconds normal costs. And after 10 seconds, the Cooldown, I have again a 20% chance that my hits will proc the poison. So on average I need 5 hits to get a poison proc again, taking on average 5 seconds.

So "overall" every 15 seconds, I have a proc and the enemy is 6.4/15 = 43% of that time affected by drain.

Do I understand you correctly that you can refresh the duration with a proc within that 6.4 seconds ?

In a 1v1 situation you cannot refresh the poison due to the 10 second cooldown. However, in a 2v1 situation, for example, if enemy A and B are both using the exact same Stam and Magic drain poison they can refresh the duration. So enemy A hits you with poison that last 6.4 seconds at the start of the fight. When you have 1 second left on the poison debuff enemy B hits you with the same poison resetting the debuff back to 6.4 seconds. They could keep this indefinitely with minimal communication, and a simple addon, once they are made. locking you at 60% cost increase until they ultimately kill you with their new easy button.

Thanks @Ajax_22 for your clarification

I assume you have actually tested this in PTS with some mates !!!

Because if so.... The Cooldown from one Poison is not like a kind of CC immunity for other Poisons
My next question is:
Can you lock your enemy yourself if you have a drain poison on both weapons bars ?

In other words:
Apparently the game mechanics remembers for the Cooldown who/what hit him.
If it is "who" it does not help to swap weapon bar.
If it is "what" weapon, it enables locking by swapping weapons.

That's a good question, and something I hadn't thought of. While we didn't test if having the poisons on both bars would allow you to refresh the duration to keep near 100% uptime on your poison of choice. I assume it can, because each bar has a separate cooldown for poisons. During the duels on the PTS the most popular poison usage was a targeted drain for whatever class you were fighting, and either ult increase or damage on the front bar, and Immovable/stun with random other effects that complement your build on back. This allowed people to have maximum uptime on resource increase, and a more situational poison to use on demand on their back bar.

NBrookus

Panth141 wrote: »

EW: Yeah, and in general we wanted it to be powerful and impactful in battles, and we can always scale it down later if it seems like it's too much, but like additionally people have ways to cleanse and get debuffs off them

CB: That's worth observing - poisons are completely subject to purges.

I get the feeling they have no idea how many debuffs are already hitting players in Cyrodiil if they think we're going to be able to just purge them. At least we got the one templar morph back to 5 effects.

ThePonzzz

Stuff like this I just don't understand. We did all these pushes to remove big groups and blob zergs. And now we're back to needing a big group to help with attrition and purging. What do you guys want out of Cyrodiil? Seemed like last major update was small scaled groups. Now we're back to 12+.

ColoursYouHave

Back when the potions were at a 30% cost increase, the only thing I heard from people who had played in the PTS is that they were too strong... so ZOS went and doubled the cost increase. These poisons will be destructive to the PVP environment, especially in the no-CP campaigns where people don't have the extra resources and regeneration to begin with. However, the biggest issue IMO is that since these poisons are a consumable which depletes fairly quickly, it will widen the power gap between the rich and poor players. With everybody using poisons, the playing field stays somewhat even, but there will be people who simply cannot afford/don't have the time to farm the materials to consistently be using these poisons, and will be at a massive disadvantage because of it. This wouldn't be a such a huge deal if poisons weren't so strong, maybe at a 10-15% resource cost increase, but with how powerful they are they will be absolutely essential to competitive PVP.

RinaldoGandolphi

But hey you can just buy them from the crown store.

It doesn't matter if they are slightly weaker then player crafted ones, if you don't have the in-game gold to buy them or the time to farm the matts or invest in alchemy you will be forced to buy them out of the crown store, since you will need some type of poison to be competitive, welcome to P2W

Lava_Croft

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

But hey you can just buy them from the crown store.

It doesn't matter if they are slightly weaker then player crafted ones, if you don't have the in-game gold to buy them or the time to farm the matts or invest in alchemy you will be forced to buy them out of the crown store, since you will need some type of poison to be competitive, welcome to P2W

No different than potions and buff food/drinks in that regard. The more ZOS makes the game lean on consumables, the bigger the chance of more Crown Store sales.

STEVIL

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

I see one problem in this thread. Not once have I read .."I went on PTS and tested poison". Your complaints are mere conjecture. How do you expect anyone really to take you seriously, let alone zenimax if you havent put in the work to see what is actually going on. Players have to make a choice of whether they are going to use poisons or weapon enchants they cannot use both. Weapon enchants have gotten a major buff in db to put them on par with poison. It's very hard to say where the zerg dynamic is actually going to go this next patch. I like small scall pvp and i'll probably go to IC this next coming patch due to the district changes

I must say that I completely agree with this assessment! Not even streamers have posted any videos of duels while using poisons... least non that I can find.

It's always the sky is falling the sky is falling with these people.

Certainly, on the surface, it looks like poisons will be quite powerful... but honestly, if WE the players are not willing to get on PTS and test these radical new changes and additions out, how can we complain and expect to be heard?

It's not like it is that hard to get on PTS and give your character the very best gear etc. to test these things out... PTS offers everything and then some to test out. It's actually pretty cool the fact that you can test out builds, theorycraft etc. all for free!

Just because someone doesn't start their post with "I tested poison" doesn't mean they didn't. There were plenty of people testing the poisons when the PTS first came out, back when the poisons were 30%. During that testing most of us agreed that the drain poisons were way to strong.

@rich.magab14a_ESO Weapon enchants don't even come close to matching the damage out put of a pure damage poison, and their utility is unmatched in PvP. If you're running trials for VMA for scores you won't get the top spots if you are using weapon enchants over poisons. Same thing if you're running small PvP groups. The poisons give large groups another huge mechanical advantage over you, and if you think the zergs won't come into IC you're crazy.

At the first pass you reference the DILUTION MECHANICS were not in effect, so you had 30% multi effect applied for long periods. Also iirc the cooldown was less.

Since then cooldown to 10sec and dilution drops duration a lot.

60% for 2s with 10s cooldown sounds much more tactically manageable esp since it doesnt apply to block or dodge.

staracino_ESO

I think that they need to make dilution apply to magnitude as well as duration for all poisons. By and large, the duration makes very little difference with the way poisons are currently working.

Or perhaps they should try ONLY diluting the magnitude and not the duration. Both of these options should be considered/tested before launch.

Wycks

Hey guys I have this awesome idea, all those hard to test and program abilities we work so hard on, try to balance around, make fun for the playerbase, you know the ones that are already hard to manage resource wise.... ya..let's take them out of the game.

If ZOS made a FPS they would take the bullets out of the game and call it strategy.

Jar_Ek

Couldn't zos add an antidote potion that purges poisons for x seconds.

hrothbern

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Couldn't zos add an antidote potion that purges poisons for x seconds.

Did somebody already test in PTS whether all abilities, sets and the CP star, that purge or reduce "negative effects" work on Poisons ?
for example:
The Templar and Alliance purge
Curse Eater (20% less duration)
Lords Mail (remove 1 negative effect per ability casted)
The CP star

Cinbri

hrothbern wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Couldn't zos add an antidote potion that purges poisons for x seconds.

Did somebody already test in PTS whether all abilities, sets and the CP star, that purge or reduce "negative effects" work on Poisons ?
for example:
The Templar and Alliance purge
Curse Eater (20% less duration)
Lords Mail (remove 1 negative effect per ability casted)
The CP star

Well, we got this:

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Extended Ritual is now the more defensive and efficiency-focused morph, great for removing all those enemy debuffs in PvP (like poisons!) or healing allies in PvE without having to recast it as frequently.

So poisons will be just a debuff that can be purged and should be affected by everything that reduce debuffs.

Masstershake

Seriously am I the only one super excited about these changes?

The 60% cost increase is goin to make soloing so much more fun.

Go ahead and whine about it, while I come up stab you from stealth, you waste all your resources putting up your defensive abilities and cry when you can only basic attack now and can't hurt me as a glass cannon.

And small groups vs big groups will be fine too. See that healer in back endlessly spamming heals...not anymore lol

Seriously people will complain about any change instead of thinking how great this will be.

I do wonder if the poison affects how much Stam it takes to block.

Joy_Division

Reading Live's transcript, I hate to say this but it looks like we maybe to blame.for that 60% figure. How often do we casually refer to the PvP meta as infinite sustain? Indeed, every time the subject of Azura's comes up, people always like to tout that campaign has actually skill involved because everyone doesn't walk around with infinite resources.

ZoS believed to make the choice of resource-sustain poison impactful - "I want to try and drain this guy and run him out of resources in a long battle" - it would have to be a high percentage because high burst builds already exist.

I'm not saying that I agree with 60% because I don't. I am saying we are the ones that planted the notion in ZoS's mind that sustain was trivial and I'd bet money that's why the opted for such a high percentage. People might think I'm a windbag with my posts, but I do so precisely to avoid sending the wrong message to the devs that comes from flippant short posts full of hyperbole.

jcasini222ub17_ESO

Hey all, because if I come back it'll probably be in the no cp or bwb setting has anyone taken the time to test poisons in a setting that matches those types of servers.

Also @Joy_Division you might very well correct. I wouldnt say I had sustain issues in bwb when I played but the concept of v16 max cp infinite sustain wasn't there. In large, medium size battles I certainly took advantage of dps who were out of place in their battle line so I could heavy attack/heal/heal/heal/heavy attack. There was no indefinite bol'ing that's for sure, and I mean bol was never my primary heal anyway thats always been for emergency, mut/springs/combatp all very useful.

Thats what makes bwb so cool to me, and really the 10-35 levels, your forced to play outside whats thought to be the traditional box.

Ajax_22

STEVIL wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

I see one problem in this thread. Not once have I read .."I went on PTS and tested poison". Your complaints are mere conjecture. How do you expect anyone really to take you seriously, let alone zenimax if you havent put in the work to see what is actually going on. Players have to make a choice of whether they are going to use poisons or weapon enchants they cannot use both. Weapon enchants have gotten a major buff in db to put them on par with poison. It's very hard to say where the zerg dynamic is actually going to go this next patch. I like small scall pvp and i'll probably go to IC this next coming patch due to the district changes

I must say that I completely agree with this assessment! Not even streamers have posted any videos of duels while using poisons... least non that I can find.

It's always the sky is falling the sky is falling with these people.

Certainly, on the surface, it looks like poisons will be quite powerful... but honestly, if WE the players are not willing to get on PTS and test these radical new changes and additions out, how can we complain and expect to be heard?

It's not like it is that hard to get on PTS and give your character the very best gear etc. to test these things out... PTS offers everything and then some to test out. It's actually pretty cool the fact that you can test out builds, theorycraft etc. all for free!

Just because someone doesn't start their post with "I tested poison" doesn't mean they didn't. There were plenty of people testing the poisons when the PTS first came out, back when the poisons were 30%. During that testing most of us agreed that the drain poisons were way to strong.

@rich.magab14a_ESO Weapon enchants don't even come close to matching the damage out put of a pure damage poison, and their utility is unmatched in PvP. If you're running trials for VMA for scores you won't get the top spots if you are using weapon enchants over poisons. Same thing if you're running small PvP groups. The poisons give large groups another huge mechanical advantage over you, and if you think the zergs won't come into IC you're crazy.

At the first pass you reference the DILUTION MECHANICS were not in effect, so you had 30% multi effect applied for long periods. Also iirc the cooldown was less.

Since then cooldown to 10sec and dilution drops duration a lot.

60% for 2s with 10s cooldown sounds much more tactically manageable esp since it doesnt apply to block or dodge.

You are mistakenly assuming people will be using poisons like the Drain Health Poison IX. The go to poisons for PvP are going to be the last Damage Health IX and Damage Stamian IX types of poisons. Dilution doesn't matter at that point and with the single resource poison neither does the cooldown.


Source of picture.

ToRelax

Joy_Division wrote: »

Reading Live's transcript, I hate to say this but it looks like we maybe to blame.for that 60% figure. How often do we casually refer to the PvP meta as infinite sustain? Indeed, every time the subject of Azura's comes up, people always like to tout that campaign has actually skill involved because everyone doesn't walk around with infinite resources.

ZoS believed to make the choice of resource-sustain poison impactful - "I want to try and drain this guy and run him out of resources in a long battle" - it would have to be a high percentage because high burst builds already exist.

I'm not saying that I agree with 60% because I don't. I am saying we are the ones that planted the notion in ZoS's mind that sustain was trivial and I'd bet money that's why the opted for such a high percentage. People might think I'm a windbag with my posts, but I do so precisely to avoid sending the wrong message to the devs that comes from flippant short posts full of hyperbole.

While you may be right, I'd definitely not say the players are to blame. We told them how trivial resource management was and provided tons of feedback including suggestions on how to handle it. Now if the person in charge of solving something is unsure about how bad the actual problem is, and how to solve it - if not use the given ideas, I would imagine there would at the very least be communication on their ideas. But no, even after implementing them into the next update on PTS, they now once again do not seem to believe how bad poisons in their current state will be for PvP. It rather sounds as if they don't even take outnumbered situations - which the whole damn discussion is about - into account, beyond "he'll die fast anyway".

RoamingRiverElk

The problem is that they're only trying to fix things now with sets and poisons, instead of fixing the whole system.

Players want hybrid builds? Here's a hybrid set that still won't be enough to make hybrids viable.
Players want faster dynamic ultimate generation? Here's a set for that (well, sort of).
Want to debuff healing? Here's a set.
Want to fight outnumbered? Here's vicious death set.

The problem with this is precisely that you are required to wear a specific set instead of having that mechanic in the game in the first place. You need to choose one or two of these sets, but at the same time you will have to give up something else too much.

The resource issue needs to be addressed system-wide so that the cost is equal to everyone. Now poisons will affect outnumbered PvP situations way more than they should. Outnumbered players are already at a disadvantage due to many reasons that are obvious (and that's fine), but now there will be this additional layer on top of it all. But this time, it'll be the final straw.

How can they not see that in order to have a healthy PvP environment, skill should matter, and not just numbers? Everyone will just need to run in bigger and bigger groups. But that's not fun. Nor is it fun to get mowed down and have no chance against such big groups.

RinaldoGandolphi

The real issue always has been that:

1.disable CP in Cyrodiil.
2. Battle spirit gives 8k health instead of 5
3. Soft cap diminishing return system needs to come back.
4. Hard caps on damage and mitigation.
5. Removal of battle spirit healing, damage, and shield debuffs.
6. Health enchants and points worth 50% more then Stam or magic

With this in place the CP is no longer there to min-max and literally remove all the weakness in your build. Trade offs will matter, you invest too much in one area you will be weaker in another. The CP system and no caps allows you to cover all these weakness completely which removes a lot of the skill based gameplay and poisons are not the answer to infinite resources.

The CP system is impossible to balance around, it needs to go when it comes to Cyrodiil and way past the 501 cap. It allows people to min max to extremes where their builds have no real weakness and that's just poor for the game overall.

Right now every fight comes down to who can burst the highest during a CC. That's it, gone are the days where fights were decided by someone who manage their resources, gone are the days where a mistake dodging or recasting a buff can lose you a fight.

The CP system promotes a very casual friendly system. In 1.5 one mis timed dodge roll would get you killed, knowing when to roll out of talons and when not too made the difference between life and death.

Today the only way to kill a Stam build is to outburst his health during a hard cc

The only way to kill a magic build is to burst down his shields and Health with a hard cc

This is not skillful, burst is actually less skillful and promotes the min max no weakness builds guys such as sypher and others have spoken to great lengths about.

Poisons are like VD a band-aid solution that won't work as these poison will like VD and proxy det always benefit the Zerg and the smaller groups as always will be punished by it

CP5

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

The problem is that they're only trying to fix things now with sets and poisons, instead of fixing the whole system.

Players want hybrid builds? Here's a hybrid set that still won't be enough to make hybrids viable.
Players want faster dynamic ultimate generation? Here's a set for that (well, sort of).
Want to debuff healing? Here's a set.
Want to fight outnumbered? Here's vicious death set.

The problem with this is precisely that you are required to wear a specific set instead of having that mechanic in the game in the first place. You need to choose one or two of these sets, but at the same time you will have to give up something else too much.

The resource issue needs to be addressed system-wide so that the cost is equal to everyone. Now poisons will affect outnumbered PvP situations way more than they should. Outnumbered players are already at a disadvantage due to many reasons that are obvious (and that's fine), but now there will be this additional layer on top of it all. But this time, it'll be the final straw.

How can they not see that in order to have a healthy PvP environment, skill should matter, and not just numbers? Everyone will just need to run in bigger and bigger groups. But that's not fun. Nor is it fun to get mowed down and have no chance against such big groups.

Quoting this first since it is exactly the problem, and second that this method zos has been using for a while. Remember their tri stat glyph, the reasoning for it? I really hope they realize that every one of these 'solutions' they introduce only makes the game that much more convoluted to work with.