OP Poisons = The Death of Small Scale PVP in Cyrodiil with DB

PainfulFAFA

Leovolao wrote: »

That third streak is gonna cost a *** ton of magicka

9950 magicka..

Ra'Shtar

Wasn't cyro made for big scale pvp, because i have seen thousands of threads complaining how big scale pvp is impossible because of performance?

Ankael07

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

Wasn't cyro made for big scale pvp, because i have seen thousands of threads complaining how big scale pvp is impossible because of performance?

Made for big scale pvp yes but theres a difference between zerg fest and big scale pvp

RinaldoGandolphi

Still silence? Not even a response? They can't be really going to put these in the game PVP like this....are they?

Ashnunn

meanwhile, in the balancing department

olsborg

Poisons are too strong, 60% is a joke, 30% even feels too much already

Robbmrp

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Here is what I want to know.

Why is there such a long cool down on potion beneficial effects before you can chug another, but not on poisons when they can be chain applied almost permanently?

Where is the 'cure poison' potion effect?

Ingenious . You mean to tell me they added all this in and never considered poisons can have antidotes ? Say it isn't so . I just assumed that was some where in this DLC . This is what I get for not having enough room for pts . Seriously no antidotes ?

From a lot of posts that I've been reading about the DB DLC changes, it looks like what ZOS murdered the most will be the game itself.....

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I think ZOS' intent with what they want PvP to be has been made very, very clear the past 24 months. Go zerging or go bust. These ridiculous poisons just further solidify their intent.

Well, as you say in a lot of other threads, deal with it and learn to play. I think it'll be nice to see these smug PvPers that have no concideration for the PvE side of things to get roflstomped into the ground for a change.

Wollust

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I think ZOS' intent with what they want PvP to be has been made very, very clear the past 24 months. Go zerging or go bust. These ridiculous poisons just further solidify their intent.

Well, as you say in a lot of other threads, deal with it and learn to play. I think it'll be nice to see these smug PvPers that have no concideration for the PvE side of things to get roflstomped into the ground for a change.

How about you just stay in your "omg sorc is dead fml class change" threads?

jcasini222ub17_ESO

Reading this thread reminded me exactly how I felt when they changed rapids. I loved to go around and pug heal, not ap farm, but genuine healing. I always thought when I ported into cyrodiil I was already part of a group, but that change really borked things up for me from both a playstyle perspective and the spirit of the game. I havent been in cyro or the game since the change to rapids. Threads like this dont inspire the confidence in me to come back and be a punching bag of a healer, needing to counter more offense without the corresponding increase to defense.

I've checked the pts notes and the screenshots of some of these poisions and its jaw dropping from a heal centric, low mobility (by nature of heals) player- jaw dropping.

Lava_Croft

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I think ZOS' intent with what they want PvP to be has been made very, very clear the past 24 months. Go zerging or go bust. These ridiculous poisons just further solidify their intent.

Well, as you say in a lot of other threads, deal with it and learn to play. I think it'll be nice to see these smug PvPers that have no concideration for the PvE side of things to get roflstomped into the ground for a change.

I don't think you really know what you are talking about, but somehow I don't think that really matters to you.

Rune_Relic

Well we know they wont stack.
So that rules out gang poisoned.
But ..they can be refreshed instead.

So we have the same problem as stun/snare lock.
No immunity period between hits.

I still don't know if;
there are antidotes to poisons (potions) ?
do poisons only negate potions (ie a buff negate at the same mechanic level only) ?
is purgeing the only way to remove them ?

Considering the way both CS buffs and poisons stack in this way,
the only way I see to fix it is have the systems work in isolation.
ie CS debuffs only effect CS buffs and do not work outside the boundaries of CS
ie Alchemy debuffs only effect alchemy buffs and do not work outside the boundaries of alchemy.

This then allows unlimited progression, future proofing and expansions.
Where the balancing of each system can be treated independently rather than cause chaos on a unified system.
Like each build is a many layered onion basically.
It should also make switching switching systems on/off a painless affair in different areas


TBH even such a system is by default unbalancable as its left to opponets to create balance rather than the balance automated within the design itself.
ie. +stamina regen buff = - magicka regen & - health regen
There was a reason the earliest systems automated the pros/cons

Those negative traits within alchemy was supposed to accomplish this.
What happened ?

Lava_Croft

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Well we know they wont stack.
So that rules out gang poisoned.
But ..they can be refreshed instead.

So we have the same problem as stun/snare lock.
No immunity period between hits.

I still don't know if;
there are antidotes to poisons (potions) ?
do poisons only negate potions (ie a buff negate at the same mechanic level only) ?
is purgeing the only way to remove them ?

Considering the way both CS buffs and poisons stack in this way,
the only way I see to fix it is have the systems work in isolation.
ie CS debuffs only effect CS buffs and do not work outside the boundaries of CS
ie Alchemy debuffs only effect alchemy buffs and do not work outside the boundaries of alchemy.

This then allows unlimited progression, future proofing and expansions.
Where the balancing of each system can be treated independently rather than cause chaos on a unified system.
Like each build is a many layered onion basically.
It should also make switching switching systems on/off a painless affair in different areas

I also still don't know if Argonians and Bosmer racial passives influence the effectiveness of incoming poisons.

rich.magab14a_ESO

I see one problem in this thread. Not once have I read .."I went on PTS and tested poison". Your complaints are mere conjecture. How do you expect anyone really to take you seriously, let alone zenimax if you havent put in the work to see what is actually going on. Players have to make a choice of whether they are going to use poisons or weapon enchants they cannot use both. Weapon enchants have gotten a major buff in db to put them on par with poison. It's very hard to say where the zerg dynamic is actually going to go this next patch. I like small scall pvp and i'll probably go to IC this next coming patch due to the district changes

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Lava_Croft wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I think ZOS' intent with what they want PvP to be has been made very, very clear the past 24 months. Go zerging or go bust. These ridiculous poisons just further solidify their intent.

Well, as you say in a lot of other threads, deal with it and learn to play. I think it'll be nice to see these smug PvPers that have no concideration for the PvE side of things to get roflstomped into the ground for a change.

I don't think you really know what you are talking about, but somehow I don't think that really matters to you.

Just as how you've been going into PvE threads spewing nonsense about something you know nothing about?

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Wollust wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I think ZOS' intent with what they want PvP to be has been made very, very clear the past 24 months. Go zerging or go bust. These ridiculous poisons just further solidify their intent.

Well, as you say in a lot of other threads, deal with it and learn to play. I think it'll be nice to see these smug PvPers that have no concideration for the PvE side of things to get roflstomped into the ground for a change.

How about you just stay in your "omg sorc is dead fml class change" threads?

How about you try to L2P with the poisons in PvP instead?

Wollust

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I think ZOS' intent with what they want PvP to be has been made very, very clear the past 24 months. Go zerging or go bust. These ridiculous poisons just further solidify their intent.

Well, as you say in a lot of other threads, deal with it and learn to play. I think it'll be nice to see these smug PvPers that have no concideration for the PvE side of things to get roflstomped into the ground for a change.

How about you just stay in your "omg sorc is dead fml class change" threads?

How about you try to L2P with the poisons in PvP instead?

Oh no worries, I'll adapt to those poisons with ease. But doesn't change the fact that there is an urgent need to discuss the effectiveness of poisons.
Shouldn't you be leveling a new character instead of derailing a PvP focused thread? Now that sorc is (allegedly) dead?

Glory

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @wrobel Can we get some information as to why a 60% increase in costs with essentially no cooldown was considered to be a balanced and reasonable change to PvP?

This patch will introduce one of the strongest and most significant changes to Cyrodiil by far. It will heavily skew the atmosphere of PvP to dodging attacks and ganking builds, because trying to outlast your opponents (especially if outnumbered but even in a previously "fair" fight) will become a joke. Classes that excel at evasion and kiting (stamina builds such as stamina sorcerer or magicka NB) will be heavily favored simply for the fact that playing a "stand your ground" class like templar or magicka DK will suffer tremendously.

I have heard a lot of concern from serious PvP players who simply haven't the motivation anymore to ask these kinds of questions, so I speak on their behalf when I voice my serious concern as to the future health of Cyrodiil due to poisons.

My suggestions (pick any or all, or something different): 1) add a significant cooldown to being poisoned (can only be poisoned once per minute etc.); 2) revert the cost increases back to 30% (which I still find insanely high...); 3) significantly reduce the duration of poisons ; 4)don't let poisons enter Cyrodiil (I know this won't happen).

Brutusmax1mus

Wow, a 10k cost on purge...

The percentage should be inversely related to cost. Cheaper skills should be hit harder then already resource heavy skills.

Wolfchild07

These poisons shouldn't even make it into live. You're only empowering min/maxers and punishing the more casual players. Resource management is going to be impossible.

Lava_Croft

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I think ZOS' intent with what they want PvP to be has been made very, very clear the past 24 months. Go zerging or go bust. These ridiculous poisons just further solidify their intent.

Well, as you say in a lot of other threads, deal with it and learn to play. I think it'll be nice to see these smug PvPers that have no concideration for the PvE side of things to get roflstomped into the ground for a change.

I don't think you really know what you are talking about, but somehow I don't think that really matters to you.

Just as how you've been going into PvE threads spewing nonsense about something you know nothing about?

The threads about Sorcerers are not 'PvE threads'. Now scurry off.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Lava_Croft wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I think ZOS' intent with what they want PvP to be has been made very, very clear the past 24 months. Go zerging or go bust. These ridiculous poisons just further solidify their intent.

Well, as you say in a lot of other threads, deal with it and learn to play. I think it'll be nice to see these smug PvPers that have no concideration for the PvE side of things to get roflstomped into the ground for a change.

I don't think you really know what you are talking about, but somehow I don't think that really matters to you.

Just as how you've been going into PvE threads spewing nonsense about something you know nothing about?

The threads about Sorcerers are not 'PvE threads'. Now scurry off.

You argue they're fine in PvP while most other say that they're useless in PvE, so yeah. You're arguing about the completely wrong thing when 99% of the sorcs are complaining about PvE. I don't think you'd be so happy if they fixed sorcs for PvE and made sorcs completely useless in PvP.

Sunburnt_Penguin

@cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO & @Lava_Croft

Take it to DM, guys. You're completely derailing the thread by bickering.

Sugaroverdose

totally agree, new enchants and poisons are completely overpowered they must be nerfed by 3x before release, or ZOS should make no enchants/poison campaign or people will rage quit since group of potato can outplay you just because of horrific number of overpowered negative effects

RinaldoGandolphi

If this goes live PVP is done for anyone who doesn't want to run in a 24 man zerg....

the majority of their population don't even mess with the PTS. If those goes live as it i can Cyrodiil becoming empty in hurry. This kind of change is ridiculous, its completely game breaking.

sirrmattus

Where is the chivalry!?!?

mr_wazzabi

sirrmattus wrote: »

Where is the chivalry!?!?

Chivalry died hundreds of years ago. It's all about winning now. Not giving the other side a fair chance.

blur

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel

As it stands right now in PVP, myself and im sure there are others that run in small groups. Zerg surfing is fine and dandy, but that gets old after awhile. I consider a small group anywhere between 3-9 people. 3-9 people is not an uncommon group size.

The majority of my time in PVP, my small group of people are stuck fighting 12-18+ people on regular basis. As it stands right now it is "extremely difficult" for a 4 man group to beat 12-14 right now as it is.

These larger groups all have:

• more people
• more healing
• more DPS
• more skills
• more siege
• more Ultimate
• more Purging(removes snares, DOTS, etc)

Thats OK, because right now on live i still "have a chance to win" i may not win all the time or even on a reg basis, diving into zergs, thats what happens, but im ok with that because i know sometimes I have a chance...(Have wiped a few large groups recently with 2-3 people)

I think the DB will be an exciting update, until i see this:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/266069/pts-patch-notes-v2-4-3#latest

• Drain Magicka Poisons and Damage Magicka Poisons now increase the resource cost of Magicka abilities by 60%, up from 30%.
• Drain Stamina Poisons and Damage Stamina Poisons now increase the resource cost of Stamina abilities by 60%, up from 30%.

This is a typo right? This has to be. This will kill small scale combat in Cyrodiil altogether. Its bad enough were stuck fighting outnumbered with 3-4 Bombard spammers at the back of a raid making you unable to move while its 2-3 people vs 12 or more, but now your going to give them a poison that makes my stuff cost 60% more to further tip the scales in their favor to the point of there being "Zero chance" what so ever to win?

Zergs are already empowered well beyond what they should be, they don't need any more advantages. The server has trouble dealing with large zergs now as it is, this will just force what little small scale fighters are left into these zergs making performance worse, or all the small scalers just exiting the game altogether. How long you think guys like Sypher is going to stick around when he realizes solo or small scale roaming is no longer possible because 1 guy in that zerg hits you with a poison and your done...you won't be able to get away, won't be able to kite, won't be able to do anything...what am i supposed to do as a Magicka DK? im a tank, its not like i can run away...survival is hard enough now.

I am hoping slotting Purge will be an option, BUT with the increased cost to Purge and the fact it appears there won't be a cool down on how often you can be poisoned(If player A poisons me and i purge it player B can just poison me again, do a cost analysis of 2 casts of Purge vs that and I lose every time from a resource cost by an astronomical amount)

These poisons will ruin open world Cyrodiil for anyone who doesn't run in 24 man raids on a regular basis.

Introducing these poisons like this is going tip the balance far too much against outnumbered small groups. Right now on live you really have to seriously outplay your opposition to win say a 2 v 12....like you have to play out of your mind to win that fight even half the time....these poisons will make that impossible and its going to kill some of the spirit that makes Cyrodiil so great......

These poisons are going to remove "luck" from the equation, and i think thats a bad thing. If these go live as is, this will be the final boot on the neck of small group outnumbered PVP in Cyrodiil. On live we have a "small chance" to win, these poisons will leave us no chance. I sincerely hope you will reconsider, these need dialed back considerably or just left out of Cyrodiil altogether and just be PVE only.Every bombard spammer will be spamming an AOE root and snare that has a chance to poison someone for these OP numbers, its stacking the deck far too much in a direction that already has more advantages then they should have to begin with.

I sincerely hope you will reconsider this. thank you for your time.

Everything they can do... You can do also.
Before poisons they still had more healing. They still had more damage. They had more skills, siege, ult, purge. FFS stop crying. So they added poisons... ok? It's still flat across the board, nothing has changed.


Zergs will always be at an advantage.

Nothing has changed.

The sky is not falling, stop crying please nothing has changed.
This doesn't affect smart gankers at all.

Ajax_22

blur wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel

As it stands right now in PVP, myself and im sure there are others that run in small groups. Zerg surfing is fine and dandy, but that gets old after awhile. I consider a small group anywhere between 3-9 people. 3-9 people is not an uncommon group size.

The majority of my time in PVP, my small group of people are stuck fighting 12-18+ people on regular basis. As it stands right now it is "extremely difficult" for a 4 man group to beat 12-14 right now as it is.

These larger groups all have:

• more people
• more healing
• more DPS
• more skills
• more siege
• more Ultimate
• more Purging(removes snares, DOTS, etc)

Thats OK, because right now on live i still "have a chance to win" i may not win all the time or even on a reg basis, diving into zergs, thats what happens, but im ok with that because i know sometimes I have a chance...(Have wiped a few large groups recently with 2-3 people)

I think the DB will be an exciting update, until i see this:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/266069/pts-patch-notes-v2-4-3#latest

• Drain Magicka Poisons and Damage Magicka Poisons now increase the resource cost of Magicka abilities by 60%, up from 30%.
• Drain Stamina Poisons and Damage Stamina Poisons now increase the resource cost of Stamina abilities by 60%, up from 30%.

This is a typo right? This has to be. This will kill small scale combat in Cyrodiil altogether. Its bad enough were stuck fighting outnumbered with 3-4 Bombard spammers at the back of a raid making you unable to move while its 2-3 people vs 12 or more, but now your going to give them a poison that makes my stuff cost 60% more to further tip the scales in their favor to the point of there being "Zero chance" what so ever to win?

Zergs are already empowered well beyond what they should be, they don't need any more advantages. The server has trouble dealing with large zergs now as it is, this will just force what little small scale fighters are left into these zergs making performance worse, or all the small scalers just exiting the game altogether. How long you think guys like Sypher is going to stick around when he realizes solo or small scale roaming is no longer possible because 1 guy in that zerg hits you with a poison and your done...you won't be able to get away, won't be able to kite, won't be able to do anything...what am i supposed to do as a Magicka DK? im a tank, its not like i can run away...survival is hard enough now.

I am hoping slotting Purge will be an option, BUT with the increased cost to Purge and the fact it appears there won't be a cool down on how often you can be poisoned(If player A poisons me and i purge it player B can just poison me again, do a cost analysis of 2 casts of Purge vs that and I lose every time from a resource cost by an astronomical amount)

These poisons will ruin open world Cyrodiil for anyone who doesn't run in 24 man raids on a regular basis.

Introducing these poisons like this is going tip the balance far too much against outnumbered small groups. Right now on live you really have to seriously outplay your opposition to win say a 2 v 12....like you have to play out of your mind to win that fight even half the time....these poisons will make that impossible and its going to kill some of the spirit that makes Cyrodiil so great......

These poisons are going to remove "luck" from the equation, and i think thats a bad thing. If these go live as is, this will be the final boot on the neck of small group outnumbered PVP in Cyrodiil. On live we have a "small chance" to win, these poisons will leave us no chance. I sincerely hope you will reconsider, these need dialed back considerably or just left out of Cyrodiil altogether and just be PVE only.Every bombard spammer will be spamming an AOE root and snare that has a chance to poison someone for these OP numbers, its stacking the deck far too much in a direction that already has more advantages then they should have to begin with.

I sincerely hope you will reconsider this. thank you for your time.

Everything they can do... You can do also.
Before poisons they still had more healing. They still had more damage. They had more skills, siege, ult, purge. FFS stop crying. So they added poisons... ok? It's still flat across the board, nothing has changed.


Zergs will always be at an advantage.

Nothing has changed.

The sky is not falling, stop crying please nothing has changed.
This doesn't affect smart gankers at all.

This is just plain wrong, unlike a zerg I can't hide in a ball and receive 50% less damage for a majority of my group.

Zergs should have the advantage of more damage and heals due to larger numbers. However, zergs should not be given a mechanical advantage that makes them stronger just because they have more numbers. AOE caps are just about the same thing as giving zergs a passive that gives them 25 or 50% damage mitigation.

Most solo and small group players are not gankers, and this will affect them tremendously. Poisons destroy dueling, small group, and solo PvP, but ultimately is just another thing we get to add to a long list.

Lava_Croft

It's good to see that the play style that has the biggest negative impact on Cyrodiil performance and requires the least player skill is the play style gets another big fat buff.