OP Poisons = The Death of Small Scale PVP in Cyrodiil with DB

RinaldoGandolphi

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel

As it stands right now in PVP, myself and im sure there are others that run in small groups. Zerg surfing is fine and dandy, but that gets old after awhile. I consider a small group anywhere between 3-9 people. 3-9 people is not an uncommon group size.

The majority of my time in PVP, my small group of people are stuck fighting 12-18+ people on regular basis. As it stands right now it is "extremely difficult" for a 4 man group to beat 12-14 right now as it is.

These larger groups all have:

• more people
• more healing
• more DPS
• more skills
• more siege
• more Ultimate
• more Purging(removes snares, DOTS, etc)

Thats OK, because right now on live i still "have a chance to win" i may not win all the time or even on a reg basis, diving into zergs, thats what happens, but im ok with that because i know sometimes I have a chance...(Have wiped a few large groups recently with 2-3 people)

I think the DB will be an exciting update, until i see this:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/266069/pts-patch-notes-v2-4-3#latest

• Drain Magicka Poisons and Damage Magicka Poisons now increase the resource cost of Magicka abilities by 60%, up from 30%.
• Drain Stamina Poisons and Damage Stamina Poisons now increase the resource cost of Stamina abilities by 60%, up from 30%.

This is a typo right? This has to be. This will kill small scale combat in Cyrodiil altogether. Its bad enough were stuck fighting outnumbered with 3-4 Bombard spammers at the back of a raid making you unable to move while its 2-3 people vs 12 or more, but now your going to give them a poison that makes my stuff cost 60% more to further tip the scales in their favor to the point of there being "Zero chance" what so ever to win?

Zergs are already empowered well beyond what they should be, they don't need any more advantages. The server has trouble dealing with large zergs now as it is, this will just force what little small scale fighters are left into these zergs making performance worse, or all the small scalers just exiting the game altogether. How long you think guys like Sypher is going to stick around when he realizes solo or small scale roaming is no longer possible because 1 guy in that zerg hits you with a poison and your done...you won't be able to get away, won't be able to kite, won't be able to do anything...what am i supposed to do as a Magicka DK? im a tank, its not like i can run away...survival is hard enough now.

I am hoping slotting Purge will be an option, BUT with the increased cost to Purge and the fact it appears there won't be a cool down on how often you can be poisoned(If player A poisons me and i purge it player B can just poison me again, do a cost analysis of 2 casts of Purge vs that and I lose every time from a resource cost by an astronomical amount)

These poisons will ruin open world Cyrodiil for anyone who doesn't run in 24 man raids on a regular basis.

Introducing these poisons like this is going tip the balance far too much against outnumbered small groups. Right now on live you really have to seriously outplay your opposition to win say a 2 v 12....like you have to play out of your mind to win that fight even half the time....these poisons will make that impossible and its going to kill some of the spirit that makes Cyrodiil so great......

These poisons are going to remove "luck" from the equation, and i think thats a bad thing. If these go live as is, this will be the final boot on the neck of small group outnumbered PVP in Cyrodiil. On live we have a "small chance" to win, these poisons will leave us no chance. I sincerely hope you will reconsider, these need dialed back considerably or just left out of Cyrodiil altogether and just be PVE only.Every bombard spammer will be spamming an AOE root and snare that has a chance to poison someone for these OP numbers, its stacking the deck far too much in a direction that already has more advantages then they should have to begin with.

I sincerely hope you will reconsider this. thank you for your time.

imenace

its the final nail in the coffin for me, zos doesnt understand that not everyone wants to be a *** zerg player running around with 15 fps killing pugs, how is this even possible? how do you even begin to put something like this in the game? and these poisons arent even the worst of it, ive seen some poisons on the pts that root you in place for 10 seconds and more, and you can pretty much spam that *** with no cooldown effectively having 0% downtime on them.. they are *** ***

IcyDeadPeople

A lot of great points; however

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The majority of my time in PVP, my small group of people are stuck fighting 12-18+ people on regular basis. As it stands right now it is "extremely difficult" for a 4 man group to beat 12-14 right now as it is.

Most of the small scale pvp in Cyrodiil is small groups fighting other small groups roughly the same size. Small scale fighting is certainly not going to die anytime soon, as so many (perhaps the majority) in Cyrodiil are solo players who don't use teamspeak and are unlikely to suddenly switch to large organized groups.

Moglijuana

I wish there was a way to wake ZOS the F**K UP! They are killing their own game. Yet they probably think their changes are the best changes ever. To who though? Definitely not the people who ACTUALLY PLAY THE FU*KING GAME.

imenace

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

A lot of great points; however

Most of the small scale pvp in Cyrodiil is small groups fighting other small groups roughly the same size. Small scale fighting is certainly not going to die anytime soon, as so many (perhaps the majority) in Cyrodiil are solo players who don't use teamspeak and are unlikely to suddenly switch to large organized groups.

im sorry but you have never touched cyrodiil in ur life if you think you will run into small scale groups most of the time, in fact i can count on my fingers how many times ive fought a small scale group in cyrodiil

susmitds

And let's not forget there's already a 10% cost increase of skills in DB.

IcyDeadPeople

imenace wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

A lot of great points; however

Most of the small scale pvp in Cyrodiil is small groups fighting other small groups roughly the same size. Small scale fighting is certainly not going to die anytime soon, as so many (perhaps the majority) in Cyrodiil are solo players who don't use teamspeak and are unlikely to suddenly switch to large organized groups.

im sorry but you have never touched cyrodiil in ur life if you think you will run into small scale groups most of the time, in fact i can count on my fingers how many times ive fought a small scale group in cyrodiil

I have been playing in Cyrodiil on NA PC since psijic beta in 2013. I can't play around zergs because my PC simply can't handle it.

Certainly there are lots of zerg battles and I did not claim anyone would "run into small scale groups most of the time" - my comment above was that most of the small scale pvp is small groups fighting other small groups around the same size. Battle between 5 or 10 players vs 5 or 10 players is still going to be fun poisons or no.

I am always in Cyrodiil solo and often encounter roughly equal groups fighting in 1v1, 2v2, 5v5, 10v10 etc on Trueflame campaign. Numbers may be a little higher on one side or another. Sometimes they are extremely lopsided, obviously.

Anything larger than 10v10 or so, my frame rate drops to around 5fps and I get killed instantly. I try to avoid keeps because of the low frame rate and do more fighting at resources, ganking in between keeps, etc. If I'm near a keep under siege I try to move some distance away from the keep to improve frame rate.

I know there are many others also playing solo, if not the majority. In my case at least, there is not any possible change to the game that would make me suddenly start playing in large guild groups all the time. Small scale fights are always going to be a lot more fun. (plus my PC can't handle those huge battles)

PainfulFAFA

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

A lot of great points; however

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The majority of my time in PVP, my small group of people are stuck fighting 12-18+ people on regular basis. As it stands right now it is "extremely difficult" for a 4 man group to beat 12-14 right now as it is.

Most of the small scale pvp in Cyrodiil is small groups fighting other small groups roughly the same size. Small scale fighting is certainly not going to die anytime soon, as so many (perhaps the majority) in Cyrodiil are solo players who don't use teamspeak and are unlikely to suddenly switch to large organized groups.

lol what???
Seriously just sit and think about it... a 60% cost increase to abilities? That can be refreshed by anyone else? Doesnt take rocket science to figure out that the group with the most poisons is going to win. No contest. All you need is some potato(s) at the back of the zerg spamming it and the other 20 are good to go for the kill.

With that in mind, can u try to think of a way to counter this style of cheese where you dont end up with 0% resources or dead?

Lava_Croft

I think ZOS' intent with what they want PvP to be has been made very, very clear the past 24 months. Go zerging or go bust. These ridiculous poisons just further solidify their intent.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

susmitds wrote: »

And let's not forget there's already a 10% cost increase of skills in DB.

WHY?

Like just randomly for funsies? Here they are making the terrible champion system more and more mandatory.

More power creep. If only we would have predicted that the CP system would cause power creep...

Ajax_22

These poisons also destroy dueling. With these poisons in the game the only duel build you can run is a 1 CC burst build. Trying to run a sustain build against poisons is like trying to empty an ocean with a colander.

Maybe this all part of ZOS' no zergling left behind plan. Destroy every other type of PvP play style to force as my hardcore PvPers out of the game as possible, because the casual PvPer wont come on the forums to complain about lag or class imbalance.

Vaoh

I'm a solo PvPer, and a very strong one at that.

With this said, a 60% resource cost increase will absolutely ruin me when fighting more than one other decently-good player.

One big incentive for me to PvP is to work my way toward Legate alone (no joke, I really want the black/white PvP dyes). Still looked forward to this until I saw that 60% resource increase poison. Everyone will run this or other equally unbalanced poisons.

If poisons make their way into ESO with the same potency as stated in the patch notes, 1vX AND small group will become even more disincentivized than they are now.

Minno

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

And let's not forget there's already a 10% cost increase of skills in DB.

WHY?

Like just randomly for funsies? Here they are making the terrible champion system more and more mandatory.

More power creep. If only we would have predicted that the CP system would cause power creep...

I did say CP equated to a drug addiction.
It appears the supplier is hooked by their own product.

Silver_Strider

Small scale PvP was killed by Vicious Death as far as I'm concerned.
This just makes the grave all the deeper as now, in a group of 6 vs a group of 24, that group of 6 will be totally resource drained within seconds due to being bombarded by a larger variety of poisons that put more and more strain on your character until you just end up losing.

Pretty much, PvP will be all zergs and gankers only now.

Lucius_Aelius

Quite apart from group size being considered, I think these poisons are way too OP and should absolutely not go Live as are. If anything I thought 30% was too much, now they've doubled down on 60%... I don't even know what to say to that. I didn't think they'd stick with it, figured they'd see for themselves they needed to be nerfed, but they just made Poisons even stronger...

Rohamad_Ali

Are they done adjusting everything ?

FireCowCommando

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Are they done adjusting everything ?

No, they will ruin a few more things before the live version hits.

Jhunn

Poisons are absolutely insane and the moment they announced it was supposed to be a 60% cost increase, I said it would be a death blow to small scale.

Please reconsider poisons before it's too late @Wrobel.

Sublime

Some people keep forgetting this:

'We’re not really a traditional MMO, we are much more of a hybrid, kind of like an ‘online RPG’.

- Matt Firor

http://metro.co.uk/2016/03/03/the-elder-scrolls-online-interview-making-games-of-this-type-is-really-really-hard-5730186/#ixzz48rNMau8a

This basically means that the game is supposed to be immersive (i.e. feel like the real world) and made for individual friends to play with each other. It is not a e-sports centered game that seeks to promote skilled players. I.e. small scale (in the sense of outnumbered) is not supposed to exist and ZOS actually want to get rid of it, since it is in no way immersive gameplay.

Minno

Sublime wrote: »

Some people keep forgetting this:

We’re not really a traditional MMO, we are much more of a hybrid, kind of like an ‘online RPG’.

- Matt Firor

http://metro.co.uk/2016/03/03/the-elder-scrolls-online-interview-making-games-of-this-type-is-really-really-hard-5730186/#ixzz48rNMau8a

This basically means that the game is supposed to be immersive (i.e. feel like the real world) and made for individual friends to play with each other. It is not a e-sports centered game that seeks to promote skilled players. I.e. small scale (in the sense of outnumbered) is not supposed to exist and ZOS actually want to get rid of it, since it is in no way immersive gameplay.

Rohamad_Ali

FireCowCommando wrote: »

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Are they done adjusting everything ?

No, they will ruin a few more things before the live version hits.

OH good . For a minute there I was concerned ... There's not nearly enough outcry yet to launch a new DLC .

Rohamad_Ali

How about , just don't add these in PvP at all ? Make them like siege in PvE . Any objections ?

Minalan

Here is what I want to know.

Why is there such a long cool down on potion beneficial effects before you can chug another, but not on poisons when they can be chain applied almost permanently?

Where is the 'cure poison' potion effect?

Rohamad_Ali

Minalan wrote: »

Here is what I want to know.

Why is there such a long cool down on potion beneficial effects before you can chug another, but not on poisons when they can be chain applied almost permanently?

Where is the 'cure poison' potion effect?

Ingenious . You mean to tell me they added all this in and never considered poisons can have antidotes ? Say it isn't so . I just assumed that was some where in this DLC . This is what I get for not having enough room for pts . Seriously no antidotes ?

Tholian1

I'm trying to understand how the poisons will work. If I am fighting someone that is using poisons against me, does that mean I have to use poisons on them too or I am automatically dead?

Most_Awesome

Just imagine these poisons on the No CP Campaigns lol lets all Light and Heavy each other to death

Sublime

Minno wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

Some people keep forgetting this:

We’re not really a traditional MMO, we are much more of a hybrid, kind of like an ‘online RPG’.

- Matt Firor

http://metro.co.uk/2016/03/03/the-elder-scrolls-online-interview-making-games-of-this-type-is-really-really-hard-5730186/#ixzz48rNMau8a

This basically means that the game is supposed to be immersive (i.e. feel like the real world) and made for individual friends to play with each other. It is not a e-sports centered game that seeks to promote skilled players. I.e. small scale (in the sense of outnumbered) is not supposed to exist and ZOS actually want to get rid of it, since it is in no way immersive gameplay.

I do aswell, but ESO isn't the game for it.

Birdovic

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

.... If only we would have predicted that the CP system would cause power creep...

If only...
Oh right, we did

Xsorus

Thing about poisons is i'm thinking they'll be cost prohibitive...

Depends on how often they proc, i know they were proccing like crazy though on PTS....and got used up super quick

Leovolao

That third streak is gonna cost a *** ton of magicka

Jhunn

Sublime wrote: »

Some people keep forgetting this:

We’re not really a traditional MMO, we are much more of a hybrid, kind of like an ‘online RPG’.

- Matt Firor

http://metro.co.uk/2016/03/03/the-elder-scrolls-online-interview-making-games-of-this-type-is-really-really-hard-5730186/#ixzz48rNMau8a

This basically means that the game is supposed to be immersive (i.e. feel like the real world) and made for individual friends to play with each other. It is not a e-sports centered game that seeks to promote skilled players. I.e. small scale (in the sense of outnumbered) is not supposed to exist and ZOS actually want to get rid of it, since it is in no way immersive gameplay.

Sad but true.

With every change they make to kill smallscale, the game will become an even bigger zergfest, the perfomance will become even worse and more people will quit.

It's called digging your own grave.