W0lf_z13 wrote: »

such a horrible idea....feels like a slap to the face for those who have worked on it for hours a day for months to get rotation and weaving down as tight as possible...... this is just literally lowering the ceiling and catering to those who don't want to put the time and effort into getting better at it.... my magcro has gone from 130k dps down to 122-123k with this last patch and now will go down to what... roughly 111/112k.... granted still good numbers.... but i have put the time and effort into learning to get things as tight as possible

Yasha wrote: »

Its very hard to weave and animation cancel effectively when you have ping of around 300ms so I think this change will be beneficial for players who live a long way from the servers. Also, I hope it eliminates the cheesy "one-shot" heavy attack builds from pvp.

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

How am I supposed to make decent cloth armor if they nerf weaving?!??



(Seriously, though - leaping to conclusions without enough detail. Also, I've been through multiple rounds of combat mechanics being altered/nerfed/etc in multiple MMOs. It happens. And frequently for the purpose of crushing the absurdly-out-of-control top end of damage. When no content in the game requires 100k DPS, why do people so vehemently defend their need/ability to do that 100k DPS? Personally, I think that DPS being so over the top to be a sign of problems with a game's combat model.)

imno007b14_ESO wrote: »

Ittrix wrote: »

imno007b14_ESO wrote: »

Ittrix wrote: »

imno007b14_ESO wrote: »

Ittrix wrote: »

imno007b14_ESO wrote: »

Ittrix wrote: »

I posted this on the change thread itself, but here's a parse of someone using just one skill (no light attacks whatsoever) to pull 60k from last year.

Unless we're gonna start arguing that pressing a button once every second is a skillful thing not everyone can do, skill clearly has nothing to do with getting a decent parse that can do most content.

Nerfing light attack weaving and buffing other stuff isn't gonna help anyone get into a group they couldn't get in before.

It obviously IS a thing that not everyone can do, because if everyone could do it then everyone would be parsing over a 100k. Also, that's a parse using what might be the only skill in the game you could do that with. In any case, if 60-80k is what you consider ideal, just expect a lot of content to take a long time. Hope you have at least a few hours set aside for that vet trial you might have in mind.

I believe that most players, we'll say... 90-95%, could pull 60k if I gave them this exact set up.
What I think the problem is is that most players have no idea how to make a set up like this because ZoS hasn't taught anyone how to play their game, which buffs and nerfs are not going to help at all. Messing with weaving completely misses the issue.

I seriously doubt that to be true. But also, what is the "exact" setup used in the parse? If it requires vet trial sets, then chances are most people wouldn't qualify to get in the trials to acquire the sets in the first place. They might not even qualify for normals. But even if it were true that just anyone could slap on the same exact build and parse at least that much, you can't expect that most dedicated trial groups will be happy with those numbers. Especially for hard mode.

You doubt it to be true? It's pressing the same button repeatedly. You think 90-95% of players couldn't press the same button at least once a second? I don't think he even drank potions.

The exact set up is unoptimized, but here you are.

He's wearing kilt (could sub in for fete in a real situation), Deadly (buyable), and five pieces of relequen. Relequen is extremely bad for this parse, though. As I said, he literally did not light attack at all. The fifth set piece of rele contributed 800 DPS. Any other DPS set would likely work better. For ease, we'll say just use Hundings which is craftable.

Yes, I doubt it to be true. You have more faith in the player base than I do. And beside the point, because you're not going to get a lot of people playing templars exclusively just to achieve this, and you can't extrapolate from one example of one class and ability to claim this is something easily achievable across the board. And again, if you can't add at least 40,000 to that damage, it's not evidence that weaving doesn't matter, or whatever exactly your point is. If weaving didn't make a real difference, they wouldn't be messing with it.

The point of the weaving nerf seems to be that they want to bring the inexperienced player floor up. They should be able to do more content with less effort, right?
We have here a parse that could let them do really anything outside of hardmodes that requires no weaving, no potions, buyable and craftable armor sets, and one skill. The skill required to do this is to literally press one button repeatedly. Inexperienced players can parse *very* high and do plenty of content.

You seem to think the reason we don't see this is because this parse is too hard for your average player to do.
My point is we don't see new players doing this sort of thing because they'd have no idea how to do it; not because they can't. If ZoS wants these players to get better, they need to invest some in teaching them how to do things rather than dropping nerfs on things they already can't do.

No, my only real point is that in general you can't just slap some good sets on bad players and expect them to do 60k parses right off the bat. But I think I got to misunderstanding you a bit because of your comment about weaving being a non-issue. I interpreted it to be an argument in the same vein as a couple posts in this thread asserting that people could do 100k parses with zero weaving, which starts to sound crazy. In retrospect, I realize such posts might have been meant as arguments for why Zos needs to leave weaving alone, because even bad players can do amazing damage without it, but when I read such comments all I think is that if a bad player could do that, then with proper weaving a good player should be able to easily do something like a 140k+ - which Zos clearly doesn't want to see.

So let's do a reset. Yes, I agree that with proper gear and the right setup (although maybe not one built well for survivability, in this case), even an average player should be able to parse enough to qualify for the majority of higher end content in the game, at least with many guilds. If they can't, it's not just the fault of Zos for not doing a better job of teaching the player, but also the fault of the players themselves. Those players would probably argue that they only have limited time to play the game, that they're older and don't have the dexterity of younger players, etc., whatever, but most of us who have played the game long enough know that it often boils down to those players just not wanting to make the effort. You can gather this from a lot of the comments you see them making over the years, like when you see them making blanket statements about not using any addons because they want to experience the game as it's "meant to be" or some such nonsense when you suggest they install Combat Metrics to help with parsing. Or just look at some of the comments in this thread, claiming unfair advantage on the part of players who can properly weave, which in a nutshell means they just never put a lot of effort into doing better.

Which brings me to the point which I think the majority of long-time players agree with: a person who does 1000+ hours on a parse dummy, who puts in that much effort, SHOULD be better than the player who has made no effort, and the game should reward him or her for that effort. I believe Zos is going in the wrong direction here, alienating a lot of it's long-time player base. I'm not sure what's going on internally, if they're seeing falling player numbers and are desperate to get more people onboard, or the player base is as strong as ever but they just want more money, but whichever is the case, I've personally gone from being pretty sure that I would be sticking with the game for at least a few more years to thinking that it might be about time to go back to GW2 or another MMO until something like Ashes of Creation finally comes around - something that doesn't feel like it's being tailored for my ailing grandma to play.

DagenHawk wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

Its very hard to weave and animation cancel effectively when you have ping of around 300ms so I think this change will be beneficial for players who live a long way from the servers. Also, I hope it eliminates the cheesy "one-shot" heavy attack builds from pvp.

Actually my hope is that they come for Animation canceling next....with a giant chainsaw.