Weaving nerf : good or bad ?

Finedaible

I just hope they don't go and increase skill costs across the board with the duration increases. Running into sustain issues is the primary thing that sucks all the fun out of combat in this game, especially for new players trying to figure out how to progress.

Aardappelboom

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

The only impact I see is how the lowered dot damage and increased duration in PVP will make it even less viable, it depends, however, on how they will tackle the HOT in contrast tot these DOTS

Honestly, for PVE, we'll just do bit less damage, people will still be able to complete each dungeon both on vet and normal and we'll still have an advantage of about 6 to 11% by weaving.

Look at it this way, if it was like this from the start, we would have just accepted it, it's because it's a nerf people are upset.

That said, I do agree that I don't think that the gap will be efficiently closed, the gap between content difficulty is just to big, people who enjoy questing and want to do dungeons will always be frustrated the first couple of times because the gap in difficulty is just too big.

Magio_

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

Finedaible wrote: »

I just hope they don't go and increase skill costs across the board with the duration increases. Running into sustain issues is the primary thing that sucks all the fun out of combat in this game, especially for new players trying to figure out how to progress.

Guess what those new ppl do when they run out of resources? Yep... spam light attacks LOL

r3turn2s3nd3r

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

Speculation but I think this will hurt the mid-range endgame players the most. The players that have no interest in end game aren't going to weave anymore than they already do, so their damage is not going to go up. Highest of the endgame will still clear content like gods. It's the mid-range groups that are going to suffer the most.

Groups that have people hitting say 80k right now (not the best at weaving / rotation but trying). These groups are also probably not the best at tracking dot timers and durations either. Nerfing any damage to groups in this range could very likely push them back out of content they were just now able to access / attempt given current power creep.

I just don't see this making end game accessibility any better for players that are trying to get into it.

neferpitou73

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

I'm looking forward to seeing the posts in a couple months from new/intermediate players wondering why their DPS has dropped substantially.

ZOS realizes that most new players just spam light attacks right? This isn't helping anyone.

FangOfTheTwoMoons

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

Its a start. But I doubt it will adress the gap between normal players doing 30k and HighEnd-Players doing 80k. Which means balancing of PvEcontent will still be impossible for Zenimax, resulting in those ridiculous Dungeons they had to do over the last couple of years.

80k isnt high end...

See this is the problem... people who think 80k is good are deciding what the game should be...

80k is fine DPS and better than a majority of the playerbase. I wouldn't call it high-end DPS either but you're coming off rather rude. This is why casual players find experienced players so toxic. Lose that mindset.

Azyle1

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

r3turn2s3nd3r wrote: »

Speculation but I think this will hurt the mid-range endgame players the most. The players that have no interest in end game aren't going to weave anymore than they already do, so their damage is not going to go up. Highest of the endgame will still clear content like gods. It's the mid-range groups that are going to suffer the most.

Groups that have people hitting say 80k right now (not the best at weaving / rotation but trying). These groups are also probably not the best at tracking dot timers and durations either. Nerfing any damage to groups in this range could very likely push them back out of content they were just now able to access / attempt given current power creep.

I just don't see this making end game accessibility any better for players that are trying to get into it.

Of course not, but as people in this post have shown, anything to bother the actually skilled/even medium skilled crowd.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Khami

Dragkiris wrote: »

Dumbest change int he year and half i've been playing... ZOS has formally just acknowledged that the majority of players suck, and instead of offering a tutorial on how to get better, they just hardcap the good players

Year and half, laughs in been here since beta and people have been complaining about this "feature" that turned into a mechanic since beta. This is long overdue.

imno007b14_ESO

I think weaving need change, but not like this

Skinny Cheeks put out a good video on all this, which I think does a good job of presenting a fair and balanced take on all this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peHkXwfOkk0

Cadbury

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

LeBrenn wrote: »

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

I'm all for it, [snip]

That's the problem. Most people cheering for the announcement seem to do it out of envy of those who master the game.

As an average player, not only I do not envy those who are better than I am, but I'm also afraid this change will lower even more the dps for us who do not master the game. [snip]

Schadenfreude

On topic, I'm less concerned about the weaving, but more about the DOT changes.

[edited to remove quote]

W0lf_z13

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

such a horrible idea....feels like a slap to the face for those who have worked on it for hours a day for months to get rotation and weaving down as tight as possible...... this is just literally lowering the ceiling and catering to those who don't want to put the time and effort into getting better at it.... my magcro has gone from 130k dps down to 122-123k with this last patch and now will go down to what... roughly 111/112k.... granted still good numbers.... but i have put the time and effort into learning to get things as tight as possible

starkerealm

I think weaving need change, but not like this

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Has any of zos's nerfs to any base game abilities/mechanics been good? No never and I don't think this will be any different. Maybe not initially but if it ever does become balanced, it will take a long time.

The % Attribute buffs from Racials. It made racial picks way less important, and meant that you weren't screwed if you didn't want to roll up a specific race.

But, yeah, that's kinda the exception that proves the rule.

DagenHawk

Yes, it's a great change

Honestly they didn't go far enough...but I hope in time they will nerf it further.

PrimusTiberius

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

Whatever ends up happening, its still going to be a another nerf..............

Squeaky_Clean

After 20+ combat changes .. it's just change for the sake of change. Keeps the players busy ..

Lumsdenml

Yes, it's a great change

EnerG wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

EnerG wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

So this is just lowering the ceiling because other players cannot do something? Is that it?

No its lowering overall dmg of weaving, the skill of weaving is still there, players will still find a way to do 100k+

This change nerfs top tier dmg, and buffs low tier. People still need to put in the work to clear content if they wish and master weaving.

I see Nothing wrong with this the game changes, the meta changes and meta chasers will find the golden spot for a legendary parse

How does this help players that can't weave? If they can't weave before then they won't now either, it isn't like its magically easier to do now. It is just that now the gap is closer. Unless I am missing something.

Most players who "cant" weave have simply just not been taught or don't know it exists, it was about a year of playing before i understood what players ment by it. And yes thats a fault of zos for not really acknowledging this mechanic of their games in any real in game capacity, but all it takes it one helpful person to take a little time ans help the community once they ask what it is 💜

To be fair, ZOS doesn't set up your rotations for you, either. I don't think it's the fault of the devs to tell you how to do more dps.

DorianDragonRaze

Yes, it's a great change

Yes, I'd love to have more time in combat to look at the scene and visually follow what's going on and enjoy how the game looks.

DagenHawk

Yes, it's a great change

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

such a horrible idea....feels like a slap to the face for those who have worked on it for hours a day for months to get rotation and weaving down as tight as possible...... this is just literally lowering the ceiling and catering to those who don't want to put the time and effort into getting better at it.... my magcro has gone from 130k dps down to 122-123k with this last patch and now will go down to what... roughly 111/112k.... granted still good numbers.... but i have put the time and effort into learning to get things as tight as possible

Hours to get your rotation...

Honestly it doesn't sound like you had much fun doing it...

I guess people don't want to put hours into a video game unless they are having fun...not working so they can have fun someday....

To be honest most folks laugh these days when someone say "Yeah you have to earn it!!!" I mean it sounds like a Dad that is angry that his kid won't get a Part time summer job...and again it's a silly video game.

All of this is taking combat back where it was three years ago full stop.

People survived no uber raider was shamed...it's just isn't as dire as you make it sound.

Yasha

Yes, it's a great change

Its very hard to weave and animation cancel effectively when you have ping of around 300ms so I think this change will be beneficial for players who live a long way from the servers. Also, I hope it eliminates the cheesy "one-shot" heavy attack builds from pvp.

DagenHawk

Yes, it's a great change

Yasha wrote: »

Its very hard to weave and animation cancel effectively when you have ping of around 300ms so I think this change will be beneficial for players who live a long way from the servers. Also, I hope it eliminates the cheesy "one-shot" heavy attack builds from pvp.

Actually my hope is that they come for Animation canceling next....with a giant chainsaw.

ArcVelarian

I think weaving need change, but not like this

Azyle1 wrote: »

So this is just lowering the ceiling because other players cannot do something? Is that it?

It would help if they could decide what number the dps ceiling should even be. That way they could balance around it as opposed to chucking around random changes to the base game.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

How am I supposed to make decent cloth armor if they nerf weaving?!??



(Seriously, though - leaping to conclusions without enough detail. Also, I've been through multiple rounds of combat mechanics being altered/nerfed/etc in multiple MMOs. It happens. And frequently for the purpose of crushing the absurdly-out-of-control top end of damage. When no content in the game requires 100k DPS, why do people so vehemently defend their need/ability to do that 100k DPS? Personally, I think that DPS being so over the top to be a sign of problems with a game's combat model.)

Yeah I dont think that is true if you are referring to a 100k DPS parse on a trial dummy. If that is not in your wheelhouse, likely neither are things like Godslayer and any more recent trial trifectas. I think that is a good thing, but certainly not everyone is gonig to agree.

In todays meta, 100k DPS is pretty good but its not cutting edge, not even close. You take 8 DPS that are all right at 100k on a trial dummy, and you are going to struggle for a lot of trifectas and even some untimed trial HMs. Simply put, If you cap out at 100k on a trial dummy in todays meta, there are soft DPS checks you will struggle with.

I think the more pressing issue with the combat model is how much variation there is. I am all for trying to lower the ceiling and raise the floor as long as they find a way to still reward effort and skill. I certainly do not believe a 120 APM rotation should pull the same as a 40 APM rotation.

You take somebody brand new to ESO and give them a PTS account (min/maxed gear and CP), most are going to be sub 30k out of the gate. Teach them how combat works on a basic level, most gamers can get that number to climb in a hurry.

Everyone will eventually hit their ceiling, but I 100% believe that the vast majority of players in ESO can get to the mid to high 80s if they are willing to put in the work, and more than you think would be 100+. The problem is we have people with all the knowledge, skill, and practice time in the world, competing with people that have none of those things and it results in a huge chasm in between which makes balancing content a nightmare.

ArcVelarian

I think weaving need change, but not like this

DagenHawk wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

Its very hard to weave and animation cancel effectively when you have ping of around 300ms so I think this change will be beneficial for players who live a long way from the servers. Also, I hope it eliminates the cheesy "one-shot" heavy attack builds from pvp.

Actually my hope is that they come for Animation canceling next....with a giant chainsaw.

There need to be better tutorials and better animation/visual aids/telegraphs for combat in this game in general. It's a huge problem that character animations are not syncing up with actions made in combat. It makes it so that there's no real way, aside from big numbers, to know that you're even weaving correctly. Right now combat in this game mostly looks like player characters are having seizures and randomly farting out effects.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

imno007b14_ESO wrote: »

Ittrix wrote: »

imno007b14_ESO wrote: »

Ittrix wrote: »

imno007b14_ESO wrote: »

Ittrix wrote: »

imno007b14_ESO wrote: »

Ittrix wrote: »

I posted this on the change thread itself, but here's a parse of someone using just one skill (no light attacks whatsoever) to pull 60k from last year.

Unless we're gonna start arguing that pressing a button once every second is a skillful thing not everyone can do, skill clearly has nothing to do with getting a decent parse that can do most content.

Nerfing light attack weaving and buffing other stuff isn't gonna help anyone get into a group they couldn't get in before.

It obviously IS a thing that not everyone can do, because if everyone could do it then everyone would be parsing over a 100k. Also, that's a parse using what might be the only skill in the game you could do that with. In any case, if 60-80k is what you consider ideal, just expect a lot of content to take a long time. Hope you have at least a few hours set aside for that vet trial you might have in mind.

I believe that most players, we'll say... 90-95%, could pull 60k if I gave them this exact set up.
What I think the problem is is that most players have no idea how to make a set up like this because ZoS hasn't taught anyone how to play their game, which buffs and nerfs are not going to help at all. Messing with weaving completely misses the issue.

I seriously doubt that to be true. But also, what is the "exact" setup used in the parse? If it requires vet trial sets, then chances are most people wouldn't qualify to get in the trials to acquire the sets in the first place. They might not even qualify for normals. But even if it were true that just anyone could slap on the same exact build and parse at least that much, you can't expect that most dedicated trial groups will be happy with those numbers. Especially for hard mode.

You doubt it to be true? It's pressing the same button repeatedly. You think 90-95% of players couldn't press the same button at least once a second? I don't think he even drank potions.

The exact set up is unoptimized, but here you are.

He's wearing kilt (could sub in for fete in a real situation), Deadly (buyable), and five pieces of relequen. Relequen is extremely bad for this parse, though. As I said, he literally did not light attack at all. The fifth set piece of rele contributed 800 DPS. Any other DPS set would likely work better. For ease, we'll say just use Hundings which is craftable.

Yes, I doubt it to be true. You have more faith in the player base than I do. And beside the point, because you're not going to get a lot of people playing templars exclusively just to achieve this, and you can't extrapolate from one example of one class and ability to claim this is something easily achievable across the board. And again, if you can't add at least 40,000 to that damage, it's not evidence that weaving doesn't matter, or whatever exactly your point is. If weaving didn't make a real difference, they wouldn't be messing with it.

The point of the weaving nerf seems to be that they want to bring the inexperienced player floor up. They should be able to do more content with less effort, right?
We have here a parse that could let them do really anything outside of hardmodes that requires no weaving, no potions, buyable and craftable armor sets, and one skill. The skill required to do this is to literally press one button repeatedly. Inexperienced players can parse *very* high and do plenty of content.

You seem to think the reason we don't see this is because this parse is too hard for your average player to do.
My point is we don't see new players doing this sort of thing because they'd have no idea how to do it; not because they can't. If ZoS wants these players to get better, they need to invest some in teaching them how to do things rather than dropping nerfs on things they already can't do.

No, my only real point is that in general you can't just slap some good sets on bad players and expect them to do 60k parses right off the bat. But I think I got to misunderstanding you a bit because of your comment about weaving being a non-issue. I interpreted it to be an argument in the same vein as a couple posts in this thread asserting that people could do 100k parses with zero weaving, which starts to sound crazy. In retrospect, I realize such posts might have been meant as arguments for why Zos needs to leave weaving alone, because even bad players can do amazing damage without it, but when I read such comments all I think is that if a bad player could do that, then with proper weaving a good player should be able to easily do something like a 140k+ - which Zos clearly doesn't want to see.

So let's do a reset. Yes, I agree that with proper gear and the right setup (although maybe not one built well for survivability, in this case), even an average player should be able to parse enough to qualify for the majority of higher end content in the game, at least with many guilds. If they can't, it's not just the fault of Zos for not doing a better job of teaching the player, but also the fault of the players themselves. Those players would probably argue that they only have limited time to play the game, that they're older and don't have the dexterity of younger players, etc., whatever, but most of us who have played the game long enough know that it often boils down to those players just not wanting to make the effort. You can gather this from a lot of the comments you see them making over the years, like when you see them making blanket statements about not using any addons because they want to experience the game as it's "meant to be" or some such nonsense when you suggest they install Combat Metrics to help with parsing. Or just look at some of the comments in this thread, claiming unfair advantage on the part of players who can properly weave, which in a nutshell means they just never put a lot of effort into doing better.

Which brings me to the point which I think the majority of long-time players agree with: a person who does 1000+ hours on a parse dummy, who puts in that much effort, SHOULD be better than the player who has made no effort, and the game should reward him or her for that effort. I believe Zos is going in the wrong direction here, alienating a lot of it's long-time player base. I'm not sure what's going on internally, if they're seeing falling player numbers and are desperate to get more people onboard, or the player base is as strong as ever but they just want more money, but whichever is the case, I've personally gone from being pretty sure that I would be sticking with the game for at least a few more years to thinking that it might be about time to go back to GW2 or another MMO until something like Ashes of Creation finally comes around - something that doesn't feel like it's being tailored for my ailing grandma to play.

To be 100% clear, you can absolutely do 100K DPS without weaving. That doesn't mean anyone can. It takes a lot of skill to break 100k without weaving. It takes less skill to break 100k with weaving.

My point is that there is a misconception that most of the DPS on a high end parse comes from weaving, which just isn't the case. Its about 15% on the extreme end, for most people its less.

It has become the biggest scapegoat in ESO. Someone struggles to break 60k, gets excluded from a group, and they blame weaving. I see it all the time. I look at their parses, you do the math and even if their weave was perfect, they would be at like 65k. The real issue is they are casting skills at a pace of about .6-.7 per second, and their DOT/Buff uptimes are lousy.

What I am really trying to get at is that nerfing or even eliminating weaving completely isnt going to magically close the skill gap, because the most skillful part of a DPS rotation is NOT weaving. It's maintaining pace as close to the 1 second GCD as possible, and its dynamically managing your DOTs to perfecting.

If you were to completely remove weaving tomorrow, anyone north of about 115K is still going to be around 95-100k. someone at 80 might go to 70. Someone at 50 might go to 45. It technically closes the gap, but It doesn't make anyone better. It certainly doesn't raise the floor. Even bad DPS use LAs/HAs and animation cancel whether they realize they are doing it or not. Every player in ESO animation cancels in combat every time the block, roll dodge or bar swap, whether they realize they are doing it or not.

I certainly agree with the last paragraph. The key is finding the balance. I dont think this is it. I can raise the floor in an instant. Make every skill have a duration of either instant cast, 10 seconds. That way anyone can build a simple static 10 second rotation, all their skills would line up. Now that might be overly simplified and boring, but it would work.

Rungar

interesting changes but its not a nerf to top players. While you might do less damage from light attacks you wont have to cast buffs as often as before so that means more damaging effects can be cast instead to fill those gaps.

minimal negative change really if you think about it. Just shifting some damage from light attack to spammable skills. The numbers will look better for zos but it doesn't actually change anything.

Still the same junk system.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

DagenHawk wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

Its very hard to weave and animation cancel effectively when you have ping of around 300ms so I think this change will be beneficial for players who live a long way from the servers. Also, I hope it eliminates the cheesy "one-shot" heavy attack builds from pvp.

Actually my hope is that they come for Animation canceling next....with a giant chainsaw.

That would destroy combat in this game. I have said it so many times. I 100% wish they would remove animation canceling completely for a week, then players would realize how crucial it is to the game. Every single time you bar swap, roll dodge, block, break free, basically any time you react to damage, you are animation cancelling.

Want to know what it would feel like to remove AC from DPS standpoint? Get on your sorc. Put frags on your front bar and your shield on your back bar. Try to cast frags then swap to your shield and see how clunky it feels. Or maybe jump into cyro and unbind Roll dodge or Block. That will give you a good idea of what the game would be like.

PileggiPileggi

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

I can get on board with making the game easier for new players to pick up and generally be more accessible. A new player before would be at a massive disadvantage because they can't weave effectively and also missing 3 CP nodes which each gave roughly 10% dmg...when I was new people were doing 300% my damage at 160CP. With CP nerf, Oaken Soul and LA nerf it will bring the numbers much closer, which is not a bad thing at all in my opinion. I personally really enjoyed learning to weave and the the CP grind but not everybody does..

I am curious how they will change HA/LA sets, what about empower do we get to keep that at least? Seems it wont be that good anymore if LA is stuck at base dmg which is pretty low so I suppose it doesn't matter. I think it wont make such a huge difference as people think; kind of like how stat merge didn't really change much it just let people run what they prefer, it will be the same here. The game is pretty robust.

MidniteOwl1913

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

Personally, I've always thought it odd that something that was it seems an unintended consequence of the way the animation of certain attacks work has become a core part of skills needed for this game. Smacking buttons faster in a certain order is an odd thing to value above learning how the mechanics work, for instance. Those are designed into the game and fully intended to be part of the challenge and yet I constantly see people with the mastered button-mashing skills ignore them in (normal) dungeons. To me at least it seems a bit like going in for a math test and being graded on your handwriting. And as the lag gets worse and worse I muse on this more and more.

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I honestly feel like weaving turns off many potential dedicated players. They buy the base game, reach max level, queue for dungeons, then get told they aren’t good enough. Some decide to limit their focus to other aspects of the game that don’t require weaving - e.g. RP, furnishing, or even tanking / healing. Most probably just quit.

These players have experience with tracking cooldowns from other games, which is far less stressful and allows them to focus more on learning dungeon mechanics.

I think the game will benefit greatly from this change.

I became a healer, turns out I like it more than DPS, but the reason I did it was because I knew that I could never hit anything like an "acceptable" parse.

Yasha

Yes, it's a great change

DagenHawk wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

Its very hard to weave and animation cancel effectively when you have ping of around 300ms so I think this change will be beneficial for players who live a long way from the servers. Also, I hope it eliminates the cheesy "one-shot" heavy attack builds from pvp.

Actually my hope is that they come for Animation canceling next....with a giant chainsaw.

I think this is a step in that direction. Many years ago I remember reading that they looked at the issue of animation cancelling and said that although they hadn't intended combat to work that way there was basically nothing they could do about it. Reducing the damage of la and ha should at least mitigate the impact of animation cancelling, as would implementing slight casting delays to some skills, like they did to dawnbreaker.

etchedpixels

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

The game meta now becomes "hold block permanently, use sword and board, spam skill bar"

My permablock templar is delighted, but I don't think it's a good idea.