Weaving nerf : good or bad ?

Holycannoli

Ok so if LA and HA have a fixed damage and don't scale with stats, what does that do to sets like this?

peacenote

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

Normally, I would say "it's too early." But after AwA, my faith is SUPER low and I already have these reservations:

1- Fix the AwA fallout first! I'm against any major changes the longer I see that sticky thread be ignored. Otherwise, I doubt this will be done well or that any issues will be fixed afterwards, so in that case I would prefer what we have over badly dine changes.

2- I think that, as usual, healers -- REAL healers that buff AND heal AND do damage -- will have our roles be diminished and made more boring by this plus the buff length changes. How do I add to my damage output when I have free cycles? I light attack and weave of course! Yes, reducing LA damage will impact "high end" DPS... but it will impact high end healers too, who are really hybrids, and it will be worse for us, because our range of damage output is smaller. At what point will it become unacceptable for us to try to add damage? I don't want to be a healer when that day comes.

3- Closing the gap between the floor and the ceiling is unnecessary. Because the floor consists of folks who don't want to do group content at all. And that's ok. But the real gap is between folks who are just starting end game and experienced end gamers... and this will just make it worse. Why? Because the intermediate step between "just learning to weave" and "weaving like it's breathing" is getting better gear and stats. Getting to that intermediate stage will be harder if stats don't impact light attacks.

4- All of the U35 announcements seem like they are aimed at dumbing down and simplifying the game which just is disappointing and not necessary. Because, again, if you are just doing casual content, it's not complicated. Weaving is not needed. But if you're trying to learn how to be the best, it's no fun if there isn't much of a difference between starting and ending.

In short... I don't think this will help anything.

TaSheen

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

I don't know. For one thing my ping is so high that weaving is close to impossible, as well as bar swapping; so yes, I'm picking up Oakensoul - because even if it gets nerfed (well, make that WHEN it gets nerfed) it should still offer some functionality for me, since one bar is all I can reliably use anyway.

So - I just don't know. I guess I will eventually.

danno8

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

Holycannoli wrote: »

Ok so if LA and HA have a fixed damage and don't scale with stats, what does that do to sets like this?

They will switch them to a flat amount of damage instead. The damage from the set can still scale with stats, just not your base LA/HA that it adds on to.

Finedaible

Holycannoli wrote: »

Ok so if LA and HA have a fixed damage and don't scale with stats, what does that do to sets like this?

I'm guessing Noble Duelist (and others like it) will go back to being a static value increases. Ironic because they literally just changed these sets in March...

Holycannoli

Finedaible wrote: »

I'm guessing Noble Duelist (and others like it) will go back to being a static value increases. Ironic because they literally just changed these sets in March...

Oh I wasn't here in March.

Well it might work then. We have to wait and see.

brylars

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

It is a shame really that in order to "help" the casual player, they feel they have to nerf something this big. It will affect all types of players (tanks, dps, and heals). All sets, buffs, constellations, etc. will be affected. More effort has been put into this change than was put into High Isle.

btw. I am a casual player and I never would have asked for a game to nerf combat play for me. I accept my inability to play like the top end players. I hope that the players give the change a chance, but if they do not like it, I hope that it gets passed over again. I say again because ZOS tried to play around with APM before.

illutian

Yes, it's a great change

That point when people actually think a bug is a feature because it gives them 'God Mode' / 'Rambo Mode' (depending on what the animation canceling is being used to achieve).

Wonder how many of ya would be fine with a FPS game having insta-reload upon swapping weapons during the Reload animation. Because that's exactly what Weaving is; cancel an animation in order to reactivate an ability ahead of its animation.

Tannus15

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

illutian wrote: »

That point when people actually think a bug is a feature because it gives them 'God Mode' / 'Rambo Mode' (depending on what the animation canceling is being used to achieve).

Wonder how many of ya would be fine with a FPS game having insta-reload upon swapping weapons during the Reload animation. Because that's exactly what Weaving is; cancel an animation in order to reactivate an ability ahead of its animation.

you know that's been a thing in counter strike forever right?

watch any pro with the AWP and as soon as they fire they swap to the knife and then back to "cancel" the sniper rifle firing animation.

HEIIMS

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

Surely weaving is the problem, removing it would definitely fix the game and even the playing field for everyone. Not the fact that little X_x_Tim0thy_x_X is running his shadowscale roleplay argonian with looted off-trait gear with Pierce Armor as a spammable in veteran content and wondering why every pull the big bad blue dragon keeps one shotting him.

drsalvation

Yes, it's a great change

It seems to me that the ceiling was above what the game originally intended to be and when people found out about it, it set a standard which devs aren't exactly designing the game for.
And to be honest, this game's numbers are too extreme for my taste, a tank can't get past 9k dps, while DPS are parsing over 100k dps but defense/armor has caps, crit has caps, but dmg in general doesn't.
It makes either choosing to follow mechanics an option, while the other is going full nuclear and beat a boss before a complicated mechanic.

This game needs a complete overhaul with more realistic numbers to begin with.
A tanks defense should be proportional to the damage they deal and damage they take, especially in PvP.
The fact that this game allows for such a high ceiling in numbers is what ends up giving us immortal tanks or nuclear DDs.

This change is healthy for the game and a step on the right direction but there's still a lot more work to be done.
And I understand, that those who have been working to hit that 100k are going to be upset because it's like a fall from glory, but to be fair, they never should've been so high up there to begin with.

HEIIMS

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

drsalvation wrote: »

This change is healthy for the game and a step on the right direction but there's still a lot more work to be done.
And I understand, that those who have been working to hit that 100k are going to be upset because it's like a fall from glory, but to be fair, they never should've been so high up there to begin with.

This is just so wrong, people are not mad they will no longer hit 100k (or whatever number you think is high) the proposed changes will result in such a low dps loss for people already good at the game that it won't matter one bit. They are mad because the proposed changes are objectively bad, and won't accomplish what Devs are claiming they will. This has happened numerous times before, with their promises of "evening the playing field" yet they never succeeded, and good players were always able to come out on top.

You get confused by people constantly posting 100k+ dummy parses thinking that's what endgame is, while in reality most of the sweaty dummy parsers are quite bad in actual content. Some of the best players in the game currently are quite bad at weaving, they miss a ton of light attacks while doing content, but they're still capable of breaking world records over and over. Because weaving is just a very small part of that makes the best DD players good. Some of the best players in eso play with very high ping, yet they still manage to stay on top. There are quite a few players from NA playing on eu server with massive ping, having no problems doing competitive DPS. Most people don't understand that and never will, but they will use it as a scapegoat on weaving mechanic, because they don't understand it and can't replicate it.

VDoom1

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

Weaving has always felt strange to me.

If you want to do a good amount of DPS, you have to weave. Some trials and some DPS checks are dependent on weaving. However, weaving was never really an intentional feature added to the game. It's more like something players discovered and developed on their own.

I mainly play as a tank, I have for years. However one thing that has kept me from getting a good amount of DPS, is weaving. I don't weave very well, it requires practice and skill. So I feel a bit like those players locked out of some content that require good damage, aka good weaving. The only way I can actually get into some trials is by going as a tank. However, sometimes I'd like to go as a DPS for a change....but I don't weave well. So there's a dilemma.

I'm glad ZoS is doing something about weaving, doing something with it. But if this change is good or bad, I can't say. I just hope that it will open up the door so less proficient weavers (like myself) won't have to depend on it as much to do good damage.

Gythral

Yet again -
claim to lower the ceiling
end up lowering the floor & raising the ceiling

FangOfTheTwoMoons

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Personally, I've always thought it odd that something that was it seems an unintended consequence of the way the animation of certain attacks work has become a core part of skills needed for this game. Smacking buttons faster in a certain order is an odd thing to value above learning how the mechanics work, for instance. Those are designed into the game and fully intended to be part of the challenge and yet I constantly see people with the mastered button-mashing skills ignore them in (normal) dungeons. To me at least it seems a bit like going in for a math test and being graded on your handwriting. And as the lag gets worse and worse I muse on this more and more.

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I honestly feel like weaving turns off many potential dedicated players. They buy the base game, reach max level, queue for dungeons, then get told they aren’t good enough. Some decide to limit their focus to other aspects of the game that don’t require weaving - e.g. RP, furnishing, or even tanking / healing. Most probably just quit.

These players have experience with tracking cooldowns from other games, which is far less stressful and allows them to focus more on learning dungeon mechanics.

I think the game will benefit greatly from this change.

I became a healer, turns out I like it more than DPS, but the reason I did it was because I knew that I could never hit anything like an "acceptable" parse.

LA weaving improves damage but the most important thing is what you called "smacking buttons faster in a certain order," which is just a proper DPS rotation. That's far from "button mashing," and it has nothing to do with causing lag either.

I dont mean to offend anyone but a lot of players are in for a shock when they realize these damage nerfs aren't going to raise the floor at all. The biggest thing holding players back is the lack of a disciplined rotation.

Lapin_Logic

Yes, it's a great change

godspeedfxb14_ESO wrote: »

How is lowering EVERYONE's damage going to help my lower end group be more successful?

Once every group is capped at 30k DPS they can rebalance Every mob just like when they rebalanced in One Tamriel.

peacenote

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

I've been thinking about this and it's ironic... ZOS's post mentions "squeezing multiple actions into a single global cooldown window," essentially blaming animation cancelling for the delta between ceiling and floor.

But the proposal on the table doesn't address the root cause at all, as they are explaining it. We can still animation cancel. So... all this will do is hurt the middle tier players who use light attacks in between abilities but don't cancel the animations consistently or at all. LOTS of people sneak in light attacks that are not animation canceling.

In reality, this may change the ceiling a little (in that overall accepted best parse numbers might go down a bit), but it won't change the delta between the ceiling and the floor. That gap will still be wide. What it will really do is widen the gap between people stepping their toes into end game and learning that there is such a thing as a rotation, and those who have mastered their rotations.

This is just horrible for prog groups as it will penalize them for taking on people who are still learning, and it will disincentivize people from sticking with end game content, since it will take so much more effort to see progress. All this will do is widen the gap between the "godslayer" trial groups and the rest of us.

It will have no effect anywhere else in game, but will make end game content less accessible to many, because the best players will be pulling in less DPS, and the learning players will be pulling in significantly less DPS, so overall groups will struggle with any end game content made, say, after the Craglorn years. Because the difference between clearing content and not in a prog is often whether you can maintain enough damage in certain stages while recovering from deaths and whatnot... and groups will be less likely to do so. And actually all you need is one DPS check in the trial to be able to not clear it! "Parsing" or "weaving" perfectly doesn't matter in real content until you're truly truly top tier.. and that's such a small percentage of the end game players. Especially now when so many have left the game over other changes. But also, if you've got one or two team members able to weave perfectly and bring those big numbers, it can significantly help with the group making progress while the learners are learning.

All this will do is frustrate people with end game content more... unless ALL content is also re-balanced in U35 to need less damage or ALL abilities and buffs are buffed so they can make up the damage loss, so the ceiling of damage output stays the same, overall (just from different sources).

I've never understood the hate for the people that can weave well. I'm not great at it but I'm always happy when there's someone in my group who can do it. It helps make up for other player flaws in the group so we can clear content. Including my own, haha.

But if ZOS wants weaving to go away, they should get rid of it. (Not advocating for this btw.) Reducing light attack damage will have unintended consequences and not bring the outcome they claim they want.

Agenericname

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

VDoom1 wrote: »

Weaving has always felt strange to me.

If you want to do a good amount of DPS, you have to weave. Some trials and some DPS checks are dependent on weaving. However, weaving was never really an intentional feature added to the game. It's more like something players discovered and developed on their own.

I mainly play as a tank, I have for years. However one thing that has kept me from getting a good amount of DPS, is weaving. I don't weave very well, it requires practice and skill. So I feel a bit like those players locked out of some content that require good damage, aka good weaving. The only way I can actually get into some trials is by going as a tank. However, sometimes I'd like to go as a DPS for a change....but I don't weave well. So there's a dilemma.

I'm glad ZoS is doing something about weaving, doing something with it. But if this change is good or bad, I can't say. I just hope that it will open up the door so less proficient weavers (like myself) won't have to depend on it as much to do good damage.

Overall Im sonewhere in between the "wait and see" and the "meh" categories. Weaving is here, and I use it, but Im not overly excited about it either way.

I dont think that the reduction in damage from light attacks is going to open the doors that people think it will. If light attacks are the only issue holding you back, then you already have access to all but a small selection of content now. Those being some of the trial DLC achievements. You may not have access to the groups running the content, but you would have enough to clear the content. Thats the real issue for many players and it isnt going to change because of this. That number or threshold people ask for, sometimes arbitrarily, will simply change.

In a lot of dungeon fights it isnt necessary. In most trials it is necessary. I run regularly run dungeon trifectas and in some cases have a weaving average of .17 LA/s. Thats about 1 every 6 seconds. Its still enough to burn through mechanics.

There's more to damage than just weaving light attacks.

Light attack weaving is already deep into diminishing returns. I cant think of a less efficient combat action in terms of mechanical input. 50% of a parse will be spent on an action that results in 15-18% of the total damage. Reducing them more wont be impactful, not to the extent that some seem to think. That said, I also dont think its the end of the world either.

I think there are 2 possibilites here. Either ZOS legitimately thinks that LAs are the culprit, in which case I do think thats a possibility simply because they gave them the power they have, in part by introducing sets like relequin and kinras, or, this is a precusor to other changes coming. Its the other changes that concern me more.

Holycannoli

Tannus15 wrote: »

you know that's been a thing in counter strike forever right?

watch any pro with the AWP and as soon as they fire they swap to the knife and then back to "cancel" the sniper rifle firing animation.

and is that a feature or a bug they can't fix?

I'm wondering why, 9 years in, they're deciding to simplify the need to weave, simplify the need to constantly bar swap to keep buffs up, add duration to DoTs so you don't have to reapply them so often, add Oakensoul so you don't even have to if you don't want to...

Is there some metric they're seeing that says casual players are turned away by ESO's "complicated' combat or something and if they simplify things the player numbers will rise?

Tannus15

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

Holycannoli wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

you know that's been a thing in counter strike forever right?

watch any pro with the AWP and as soon as they fire they swap to the knife and then back to "cancel" the sniper rifle firing animation.

and is that a feature or a bug they can't fix?

I'm wondering why, 9 years in, they're deciding to simplify the need to weave, simplify the need to constantly bar swap to keep buffs up, add duration to DoTs so you don't have to reapply them so often, add Oakensoul so you don't even have to if you don't want to...

Is there some metric they're seeing that says casual players are turned away by ESO's "complicated' combat or something and if they simplify things the player numbers will rise?

no, they just really want more people to be capable of doing "harder" content like the 4 dungeons they put out every year, while at the same time trying to find a way to keep the game interesting for anyone who is actually good at it.

that's why the vast majority of people who are constructively reading the combat proposal are saying don't nerf the game systems, but instead put in a bloody tutorial. Explain the game system. Teach players how to play the game properly.
I don't know how many times we have to keep saying it, there is no combat tutorial!

tweaking the numbers will not ever help people improve if they don't understand the basic things like putting all your attributes into 1 stat or how much changing to damage enchants matter or any of the 100 things you need to understand to get the most out of the game system.

eso has one group of people playing chess and the other group is tic-tac-toe. increasing or decreasing light attack damage is going to do NOTHING for people who either only use light attacks or never use light attacks or have 20 attributes in mag, and 20 in stam and 24 in health because that's balanced and logical.
Do you know why i think they hybridised all the skills? because people who don't understand the games systems just use all the skills because they look pretty.

zos are making weird game balance decisions all to avoid Explaining Their Game Systems In The Game

Look at the undaunted introduction into dungeons and pledges.
it's literally WALK INTO A DUNGEON AND THEN LEAVE.
That's the intro to dungeons.

This is why people are so angry about this. It's because it makes NO SENSE. it's NOT going to help anyone.
It's not going to "close the delta" because the delta is People who understand the game and People who do not!

starkerealm

I think weaving need change, but not like this

If the goal is to close the delta, then what really needs to happen is, weaving needs to be made easier.

Flat damage on light and heavy attacks isn't going to do much of anything.

How can you make weaving easier? Action queuing. A single slot action/LA queue, with automatic canceling at a fixed point during the animations, would go a long way towards making the system more accessible without (significantly) impairing the game.

So, use an active ability, then trigger an LA, at that point, as soon as the game is ready to cancel the animation, the LA fires, once you've triggered the LA, but before the LA actually fires, you can queue your next active ability to fire. Once the LA has started, and the active ability is queued, you can queue up another LA.

Importantly, you can never queue past the next second, and can always cancel the current queue by blocking, dodging or (probably) by bar swapping.

If you take the bulk of the timing out of the weave, you could make things a lot more accessible.

Simply fixing damage to a static amount is not going to make things better. This literally only benefits players who either don't have the gear they need at all, or have a completely scuffed build. Which is something that can be addressed by adjusting the low end of the damage scaling for abilities and LAs.

Amottica

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

tomfant wrote: »

EnerG wrote: »

This change nerfs top tier dmg, and buffs low tier. People still need to put in the work to clear content if they wish and master weaving.

That's totally wrong, it will not raise the floor at all. It will lower it instead. Those who don't use weaving (for whatever reason) and just spam LA or HA will do even less dmg than before.

A flat LA/HA damage level that's half of current high-end DPS is going to be a buff for tanks, healers, and DPS in leveling or otherwise low-end gear.

Sure, this change is a nerf for anyone in high-end DPS gear, but a big part of the disparity between people with low and high DPS is optimized gear (particularly traits and enchantments), not mechanical skill.

The largest part of the disparity between top dps and the lower end is split between bad builds and poor timing in delivering skills.

As a result, this will only even slightly even out players with high DPS and do little to help the lower to middle players.

This also ignores the learnings and statement Zenimax made after an off-cycle PTS test Zenimax did a few years ago when they stated they realized that the current action-based combat design is a big part of what sets ESO apart from other MMORPGs and is a big part of the game's success. This change technically does not eliminate it but it will possibly make it less important and brings the game a step closer to FF14-style combat.

However, all of us are just speculating until this goes live on the PTS where some of us will actually test it.

BretonMage

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

Agenericname wrote: »

There's more to damage than just weaving light attacks.

I think there are 2 possibilites here. Either ZOS legitimately thinks that LAs are the culprit, in which case I do think thats a possibility simply because they gave them the power they have, in part by introducing sets like relequin and kinras, or, this is a precusor to other changes coming.

That's interesting. I've been practising my LAW, and while it's not great, it doesn't completely suck. My DPS is still extremely mediocre though, I suspect because I don't have the "correct" sets. So are stacking sets like Relequen and Kinras the reason why DPS went through the roof? Should they nerf stacking instead of weaving - or is this what they're doing when they said LAs will be a flat damage instead of scaling?

MudcrabAttack

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

imno007b14_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

You can absolutely break 100k in todays meta without weaving at all.

If you show me the parse, I'll believe it.

@imno007b14_ESO

It can absolutely be done. @MudcrabAttack posted several in a thread a few months ago. LA damage is roughly 10-12% of DPS on paper in isolation, probably a touch more in reality. Not counting weird stam sorc overload builds, look at any high end parse, and you will see that if you remove the LAs, you are still north of 100k.

Yes it can contribute in other ways with sets like Relequen, but you dont need to run those at all. Plenty of viable replacements within a few percent of meta that arent based on a LA weave. The only small thing is that you need to build ultimate with LA/HAs, but all that takes is a is a weapon attack every handful of skills. No reason it needs to be a weave.

These are some of Mudcrabs Parses, hope its okay I share them. First is no weave or LA sets, second is basically a meta parse with weaving and Relquen:






He added roughly 16.5k DPS by going from off meta sets and no weave, to meta sets and a perfect weave. I wont say its nothing, but its not earth shattering. Certainly a lot less then some would have you believe.

Weaving is important if you want to be at the bleeding edge of DPS, but there is a misconception that its required to pull very high damage. What is much more important are maintaining a 1 sec GCD pace and casting buffs/DOTs right as they expire. That's were the real skill lies. Make LAs do zero damage, and the Mudcrabs of the world are still going to pull more DPS than most of us, because most of us arent human metronomes. Only way you close that gap is to increase the GCD, which I dont see them doing for a lot of good reasons.

Hey there
@Oreyn_Bearclaw

It’s no problem. The dps without light attacks always seemed a tad higher than expected, and it usually happens that way since the pace between skills speeds up for me. I’m not sure if it’s like that for everyone, but if they reduce light attacks to something around 5% of the total, it might make sense for me to skip all but one or two light attacks per rotation since, in my case, they add around .05 seconds between skills. They would push into the territory of more work = less payout

insignismemoria

Yes, it's a great change

EnerG wrote: »

The thing about this, is...it's not a mechanic. Not an intended one anyway. It never has been. It's a bug that ZOS has never been able to fix, so they just stopped acknowledging it, and the players took it and ran with it.

Louder for the people in the back.

It's a bug that the players turned into a feature.

They've been tackling legacy code this year and maybe they've finally found a way to safely remove weaving entirely. My greatest hope is that this is just to soften the blow when it comes.

illutian

Yes, it's a great change

Tannus15 wrote: »

illutian wrote: »

That point when people actually think a bug is a feature because it gives them 'God Mode' / 'Rambo Mode' (depending on what the animation canceling is being used to achieve).

Wonder how many of ya would be fine with a FPS game having insta-reload upon swapping weapons during the Reload animation. Because that's exactly what Weaving is; cancel an animation in order to reactivate an ability ahead of its animation.

you know that's been a thing in counter strike forever right?

watch any pro with the AWP and as soon as they fire they swap to the knife and then back to "cancel" the sniper rifle firing animation.

You mean...this?
https://spawnterror.com/reload-cancel-quick-switch-is-slower/

The section on the AWP seems to indicate it doesn't reload faster. By the way it reads. It looks like Quickswitch is cancelling the 'to hip' animation after exiting ADS.

I'm referring to cancelling the reload animation so you insta-reload the weapon and fire it.

---

If they really want to lower the skill ceiling they created. They should just make it so Light, Medium, and Heavy attacks give a 'combo point' like build up that makes abilities hit harder / heal for more. ...maybe like 3 combo points max, then dump them into an ability.

---

All Weaving did was turn a really fun MMO into a Korean Starcraft tournament; who has the highest APM!

xgoku1

Yes, it's a great change

insignismemoria wrote: »

EnerG wrote: »

The thing about this, is...it's not a mechanic. Not an intended one anyway. It never has been. It's a bug that ZOS has never been able to fix, so they just stopped acknowledging it, and the players took it and ran with it.

Louder for the people in the back.

It's a bug that the players turned into a feature.

They've been tackling legacy code this year and maybe they've finally found a way to safely remove weaving entirely. My greatest hope is that this is just to soften the blow when it comes.

I suspect this is the real reason too. Just like Accountwide achievements was a long requested thing that only happened because ZOS figured it would improve performance significantly over per character tracking.

Their wording is peculiar, "squeezing multiple actions into the global cooldown window". This makes me think of the performance impact of animation canceling on the server, more calculations.

In March 2020 (the year they said they'd focus on performance) they tried Version 1 of this with a 78% reduction to LA damage but with a weird slow heavy attack oriented playstyle. Similar situation happened then where major content creators and vet players made enough noise to get it scrapped.

The fact that they're trying the same thing again seems like they aren't asking, they're telling. The increased DoT durations are also probably part of this plan to reduce the overall APM and server calculations.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

imno007b14_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

You can absolutely break 100k in todays meta without weaving at all.

If you show me the parse, I'll believe it.

@imno007b14_ESO

It can absolutely be done. @MudcrabAttack posted several in a thread a few months ago. LA damage is roughly 10-12% of DPS on paper in isolation, probably a touch more in reality. Not counting weird stam sorc overload builds, look at any high end parse, and you will see that if you remove the LAs, you are still north of 100k.

Yes it can contribute in other ways with sets like Relequen, but you dont need to run those at all. Plenty of viable replacements within a few percent of meta that arent based on a LA weave. The only small thing is that you need to build ultimate with LA/HAs, but all that takes is a is a weapon attack every handful of skills. No reason it needs to be a weave.

These are some of Mudcrabs Parses, hope its okay I share them. First is no weave or LA sets, second is basically a meta parse with weaving and Relquen:






He added roughly 16.5k DPS by going from off meta sets and no weave, to meta sets and a perfect weave. I wont say its nothing, but its not earth shattering. Certainly a lot less then some would have you believe.

Weaving is important if you want to be at the bleeding edge of DPS, but there is a misconception that its required to pull very high damage. What is much more important are maintaining a 1 sec GCD pace and casting buffs/DOTs right as they expire. That's were the real skill lies. Make LAs do zero damage, and the Mudcrabs of the world are still going to pull more DPS than most of us, because most of us arent human metronomes. Only way you close that gap is to increase the GCD, which I dont see them doing for a lot of good reasons.

Hey there
@Oreyn_Bearclaw

It’s no problem. The dps without light attacks always seemed a tad higher than expected, and it usually happens that way since the pace between skills speeds up for me. I’m not sure if it’s like that for everyone, but if they reduce light attacks to something around 5% of the total, it might make sense for me to skip all but one or two light attacks per rotation since, in my case, they add around .05 seconds between skills. They would push into the territory of more work = less payout

That is kind of my fear. I like light attack weaving. I like having my index finger being my metronome. Its always the same button on the same count. When I tried going with no LAs for experimental purposes, my pace becomes a bit erratic. Sure I would get used to it, but it would take some adjustments.

I think the biggest thing right now is this misconception about how much damage they add. 90% of players would do better when learning to ignore light attacks until they get their rotation under control. If people viewed them as more of a bonus or a bit of icing on the cake (which is exactly what they are), instead of a requirement to do high DPS (which they arent), we wouldnt be in this mess.

Pro tip: If you cant do a basic rotation with decent uptime on skills and pace of about .9 skills per second, dont weave. Figure that part out first. Weaving might keep a lot of people from breaking 100k, but it is 100% NOT the reason you can't break about 85k.

insignismemoria wrote: »

EnerG wrote: »

The thing about this, is...it's not a mechanic. Not an intended one anyway. It never has been. It's a bug that ZOS has never been able to fix, so they just stopped acknowledging it, and the players took it and ran with it.

Louder for the people in the back.

It's a bug that the players turned into a feature.

They've been tackling legacy code this year and maybe they've finally found a way to safely remove weaving entirely. My greatest hope is that this is just to soften the blow when it comes.

Nonsense. Unintended does not equal bug. People started weaving in BETA and the devs doubled down on it because they realized that it allowed for fluid fast paced combat. They have doubled down on it 20 times since then with sets and skills. They could remove the ability to weave tomorrow by putting LAs on the same GCD as skills. Acting like they couldn't change it if they wanted to is absurd. ZOS isnt perfect, but that would be simple from a coding standpoint. Dont weave if you dont want to. Its not necessary as has been proven countless times. But why someone would want to remove a layer of action and skill that is unique to this wonderful game is beyond me.

pklemming

The main problem, as I see it, is the trust in Zos to actually get patch right, right now, is at an all times low.

Recent decisions have not panned out as expected and we are tired of saying please don't do this and then being ignored. AwA, for me, was hideous. It reduced my playtime vastly, by leaving me with precious little to do in game.

Their habit of hyping and nerfing mythics depending on which expansions.

Implementing changes to limit dps, whilst actually increasing dps.

If the track record was better, then I would be happier with a sweeping change, but right now, I half expect to be wielding two bunnies when I log in on patch day and be wearing my weapons on my head.

Do the numbers. Listen to the PTS crowd. Don't push stuff live even if we have warned there are issues.

What the game really needs right now is the trust of the community, beyond just the new players.

It may be an idea to implement so sort of ... say... role where people who regularly play the class give feedback on the changes. Just an idea...

Lapin_Logic

Yes, it's a great change

Accessibility ♿️ Feature for "Muh Light weaving"

Add an option "Auto Light attack after skill/bar swap while in Combat" bosh, Job done