Weaving nerf : good or bad ?

Tannus15

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

Its a start. But I doubt it will adress the gap between normal players doing 30k and HighEnd-Players doing 80k. Which means balancing of PvEcontent will still be impossible for Zenimax, resulting in those ridiculous Dungeons they had to do over the last couple of years.

normal players will now do 28k and high end players will do 75k. What a win. What a great change. See how that gap was "closed"

LeBrenn

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

xgoku1 wrote: »

Any change is appreciated, but ZOS is again doubling down on animation canceling being a "feature" and totally not an unintended exploit.

we hope to reduce the difference of damage potential in a way that retains the satisfaction of learning to weave, where the impact is still felt, but to a much less degree than before.

... which allows for a much smaller and healthier gap while still retaining the sense of mastery and expression of that mastery with weaving.

The #1 feedback for why people think ESO's combat is bad is the awkward animation canceling, this does nothing to solve that.

This is a farce. You aren't fooling anybody.

Been playing since 2017 and I have NEVER heard anyone say eso's combat is bad.
Before this thread, I also never heard anybody complain about weaving.

Tharonil

I think weaving need change, but not like this

Why fixing damage and not get rid of animation cancelling?

I love light attack builds.

Sorcerer class with the "Bound Armaments" skill
= +10% more light attack damage

+ Molag kena
+ Relequen or similar LA set
+ Champion points in LA


The question is, if light attack sets will be useless after this change (like Undaunted Infiltrator).

xgoku1

Yes, it's a great change

LeBrenn wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

Any change is appreciated, but ZOS is again doubling down on animation canceling being a "feature" and totally not an unintended exploit.

we hope to reduce the difference of damage potential in a way that retains the satisfaction of learning to weave, where the impact is still felt, but to a much less degree than before.

... which allows for a much smaller and healthier gap while still retaining the sense of mastery and expression of that mastery with weaving.

The #1 feedback for why people think ESO's combat is bad is the awkward animation canceling, this does nothing to solve that.

This is a farce. You aren't fooling anybody.

Been playing since 2017 and I have NEVER heard anyone say eso's combat is bad.
Before this thread, I also never heard anybody complain about weaving.

See discourse here

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/588075/why-is-it-the-general-impression-of-people-who-dont-play-eso-is-that-the-combat-is-bad/

https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/vsru67/eso_update_35_combat_changes_an_attempt_to_fix/

TLDR outside the hugboxes, ESO combat is called it's weakest link. Obviously people who like it are going to be vocal against any change, but ZOS probably sees it as a new player/player retention issue where people try the game and don't stay because the combat seems bad.

I mean, if everyone liked weaving, why would they try to change it? This isn't the first time they've tried, in the past they've even tried to make a Heavy Attack meta but got shut down instantly within a week of PTS.

tomfant

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

EnerG wrote: »

This change nerfs top tier dmg, and buffs low tier. People still need to put in the work to clear content if they wish and master weaving.

That's totally wrong, it will not raise the floor at all. It will lower it instead. Those who don't use weaving (for whatever reason) and just spam LA or HA will do even less dmg than before.

the1andonlyskwex

I think weaving need change, but not like this

tomfant wrote: »

EnerG wrote: »

This change nerfs top tier dmg, and buffs low tier. People still need to put in the work to clear content if they wish and master weaving.

That's totally wrong, it will not raise the floor at all. It will lower it instead. Those who don't use weaving (for whatever reason) and just spam LA or HA will do even less dmg than before.

A flat LA/HA damage level that's half of current high-end DPS is going to be a buff for tanks, healers, and DPS in leveling or otherwise low-end gear.

Sure, this change is a nerf for anyone in high-end DPS gear, but a big part of the disparity between people with low and high DPS is optimized gear (particularly traits and enchantments), not mechanical skill.

XxCaLxX

EnerG wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

EnerG wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

So this is just lowering the ceiling because other players cannot do something? Is that it?

No its lowering overall dmg of weaving, the skill of weaving is still there, players will still find a way to do 100k+

This change nerfs top tier dmg, and buffs low tier. People still need to put in the work to clear content if they wish and master weaving.

I see Nothing wrong with this the game changes, the meta changes and meta chasers will find the golden spot for a legendary parse

How does this help players that can't weave? If they can't weave before then they won't now either, it isn't like its magically easier to do now. It is just that now the gap is closer. Unless I am missing something.

Most players who "cant" weave have simply just not been taught or don't know it exists, it was about a year of playing before i understood what players ment by it. And yes thats a fault of zos for not really acknowledging this mechanic of their games in any real in game capacity, but all it takes it one helpful person to take a little time ans help the community once they ask what it is 💜

Too bad they don't give a tip about it on loadscreens........

jtm1018

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

"Waving?"

Best weaving ever!!!

HatchetHaro

Yes, it's a great change

I can weave just fine. However, I'm down for those changes if they do lower the skill/DPS gap as promised (and also adjust content/abilities to match).

ApoAlaia

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

I'm going to wait until the changes are rolled out in the PTS.

I have read the announcement 7 or 8 times and I am still thoroughly confused.

NupidStoob

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

Went on a break from the game a while ago, but it's not my first break and probably won't be my last.

One of the mainreasons to even go on a break was that ZoS completely lacks direction in the balance department and that they are constantly making changes just to make changes. It feels like every three to six months ZoS has the need to fundamentally change something and then the next big patch cycle they turn around and overthrow what they did before. Like them saying they don't like how high DPS has gotten so they nerf CP and then introduce sets the very next patch that pump DPS to numbers as high and higher than during the Thrassian era.

These changes feel the same and I doubt they will accomplish much. Weaving isn't hard. It's one well timed click a second. Whats hard about it is to be consistent throughout an entire fight where a lot of other things are going on. However being perfect at weaving is never required unless you go for actual world record times. If people just weave even if poorly the gap would already be lowered a lot. Many people just don't like the extra effort, they just want to mash their buttons and not go out of their way to do more than that. That's completely fine, but the harsh reality is that even if weaving were to be completely removed these people would still perform worse than people who want to actually improve and do well. This is the same in any game even much simpler ones than ESO.

HEIIMS

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

NPCs complaining about weaving again.
These changes will change nothing, like the post above me states, changes for the sake of changes, nothing more.
People who do not want to invest time to improve themselves will not have it any easier, no matter how much they water down the game or it's core mechanics.

EF321

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

I don't care if it is better or not. Can I just use any of my existing setups for more than two months? These complete revamps of game systems every DLC patch is out of control.

DairyCat

I think weaving need change, but not like this

Been playing since 2017 and I have NEVER heard anyone say eso's combat is bad.
Before this thread, I also never heard anybody complain about weaving.[/quote]
I've heard people not like ESO's combat, but it was more around the lack of cooldowns for abilities so they said the gameplay felt spammy whether you were using daggers or a giant great axe. You don't really have a playstyle that is based on higher cooldown but more impactful abilities, it's just everyone spam your abilities as fast as you can.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Yes, it's a great change

I'm really looking forward to seeing the change because of the number of great forum posts it will generate

Vaoh

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

xgoku1 wrote: »

Any change is appreciated, but ZOS is again doubling down on animation canceling being a "feature" and totally not an unintended exploit.

we hope to reduce the difference of damage potential in a way that retains the satisfaction of learning to weave, where the impact is still felt, but to a much less degree than before.

... which allows for a much smaller and healthier gap while still retaining the sense of mastery and expression of that mastery with weaving.

The #1 feedback for why people think ESO's combat is bad is the awkward animation canceling, this does nothing to solve that.

This is a farce. You aren't fooling anybody.

#1 Feedback from who? People who already quit? Sure, 8 years ago many players quit because ESO wasn’t co-op Skyrim.

Players who are still here remain because they enjoy ESO for what it is. You fail to understand how drastic controversial changes to core gameplay causes players to quit without being replaced.

Go ahead. Put player abilities, synergies, block, dodge roll, and light/heavy attacks on the same global cooldown. Just expect a much emptier game.

tomfant

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

#1 feedback?? Really??

Combat feedback on this forums focusses around game performance (lag, desyncs, skills not workint, etc), on balancing of classes and skills and the never ending introduction of new broken sets.

There is only a very small group of people blaiming LA weaving, but this group very loud on this forum. They feel so entitled that they never let a chance pass to rant about weaving.

Azyle1

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

Again. This does nothing to help the lower skilled/people who are bad/people who don't care about weaving.

This JUST lowers the ceiling according to how it was worded. The only people happy seemingly are ones who are just mad that people can do high DPS and think weaving is a bad glitch or something. But at the end of the day, ZOS will cater to the casuals that just wanna roleplay as an Elf or Lizard person and would never step foot in harder content.

Kiralyn2000

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

How am I supposed to make decent cloth armor if they nerf weaving?!??



(Seriously, though - leaping to conclusions without enough detail. Also, I've been through multiple rounds of combat mechanics being altered/nerfed/etc in multiple MMOs. It happens. And frequently for the purpose of crushing the absurdly-out-of-control top end of damage. When no content in the game requires 100k DPS, why do people so vehemently defend their need/ability to do that 100k DPS? Personally, I think that DPS being so over the top to be a sign of problems with a game's combat model.)

Faltasë

Yes, it's a great change

Idk, I think the change is good because weaving is a terrible combat mechanic in the first place. But it's also not good because of the same reason. They shouldn't have built combat around weaving and animation cancelling.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

'It's going to happen anyway, no matter if we like it or not'

*sits on the bench and puts out his cigarette*

Holycannoli

Tharonil wrote: »

Why fixing damage and not get rid of animation cancelling?

They either can't figure out how to or are unable to no matter what they do.

That's why that animation cancelling bug soon became a feature.

Foxhearted

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

I don't even understand why it's so frowned upon?
It's more understandable in pvp, but why would you want to nerf it for pve?

alanmatillab16_ESO

Yes, it's a great change

I'm all for it, [snip]

[edited for baiting]

LeBrenn

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

I'm all for it, [snip]

That's the problem. Most people cheering for the announcement seem to do it out of envy of those who master the game.

As an average player, not only I do not envy those who are better than I am, but I'm also afraid this change will lower even more the dps for us who do not master the game. [snip]

[edited to remove quote]

Agenericname

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

LeBrenn wrote: »

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

I'm all for it, [snip]

That's the problem. Most people cheering for the announcement seem to do it out of envy of those who master the game.

As an average player, not only I do not envy those who are better than I am, but I'm also afraid this change will lower even more the dps for us who do not master the game. [snip]

I agree with the spirit of your post, but "DPS meter crowd" and good player arent always synonymous.

[edited to remove quote]

Nomadic_Atmoran

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

ZOS has never successfully lowered the ceiling. This wont impact top end players, only those at the lower end that dont have the benefit of ball groups or organized trial groups. Any changes to weaving will have a minimal impact on those already at the ceiling.

godspeedfxb14_ESO

Speaking as someone who is part of a high end group who completes HM trials AS WELL AS helping a lower end group who progs regular veteran trials, this change simply doesn't make sense to me.

In my lower end group, they sometimes struggle to hit DPS checks. This change will hurt their DPS even further and make it even harder for them.

How is lowering EVERYONE's damage going to help my lower end group be more successful? Sure, it might hurt the mid-tier and high end groups *slightly* more, but they are already hitting such massive numbers that it doesn't matter. They will adjust like they always do. The low-end and mid-tier groups don't care what the high-end groups are doing--they only care about what THEY are doing, and this change will hurt their DPS, so it's going to make things harder for them.

ZoS should put a little time into teaching people to weave and how to put together an optimal skill setup / rotation from the beginning of the game.. that would have a much greater impact on this problem. The low-end and mid-tier groups are STILL going to have to learn to weave better even after this change.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Zama666

Yes, it's a great change

EnerG wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

EnerG wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

So this is just lowering the ceiling because other players cannot do something? Is that it?

No its lowering overall dmg of weaving, the skill of weaving is still there, players will still find a way to do 100k+

This change nerfs top tier dmg, and buffs low tier. People still need to put in the work to clear content if they wish and master weaving.

I see Nothing wrong with this the game changes, the meta changes and meta chasers will find the golden spot for a legendary parse

How does this help players that can't weave? If they can't weave before then they won't now either, it isn't like its magically easier to do now. It is just that now the gap is closer. Unless I am missing something.

Most players who "cant" weave have simply just not been taught or don't know it exists, it was about a year of playing before i understood what players ment by it. And yes thats a fault of zos for not really acknowledging this mechanic of their games in any real in game capacity, but all it takes it one helpful person to take a little time ans help the community once they ask what it is 💜

Agreed.
I had no idea about weaving for a long time. Lag ruins it for me and I am likely still not doing it correct?

I still don't know the difference between 'weaving' and 'animation cancelling' - I thought they were the same....right?

If ZOS wants another revenue stream - add 'playing ESO 101' on some paid platform. Can I pay in crowns?

Zanks!

imno007b14_ESO

I think weaving need change, but not like this

Ittrix wrote: »

imno007b14_ESO wrote: »

Ittrix wrote: »

imno007b14_ESO wrote: »

Ittrix wrote: »

imno007b14_ESO wrote: »

Ittrix wrote: »

I posted this on the change thread itself, but here's a parse of someone using just one skill (no light attacks whatsoever) to pull 60k from last year.

Unless we're gonna start arguing that pressing a button once every second is a skillful thing not everyone can do, skill clearly has nothing to do with getting a decent parse that can do most content.

Nerfing light attack weaving and buffing other stuff isn't gonna help anyone get into a group they couldn't get in before.

It obviously IS a thing that not everyone can do, because if everyone could do it then everyone would be parsing over a 100k. Also, that's a parse using what might be the only skill in the game you could do that with. In any case, if 60-80k is what you consider ideal, just expect a lot of content to take a long time. Hope you have at least a few hours set aside for that vet trial you might have in mind.

I believe that most players, we'll say... 90-95%, could pull 60k if I gave them this exact set up.
What I think the problem is is that most players have no idea how to make a set up like this because ZoS hasn't taught anyone how to play their game, which buffs and nerfs are not going to help at all. Messing with weaving completely misses the issue.

I seriously doubt that to be true. But also, what is the "exact" setup used in the parse? If it requires vet trial sets, then chances are most people wouldn't qualify to get in the trials to acquire the sets in the first place. They might not even qualify for normals. But even if it were true that just anyone could slap on the same exact build and parse at least that much, you can't expect that most dedicated trial groups will be happy with those numbers. Especially for hard mode.

You doubt it to be true? It's pressing the same button repeatedly. You think 90-95% of players couldn't press the same button at least once a second? I don't think he even drank potions.

The exact set up is unoptimized, but here you are.

He's wearing kilt (could sub in for fete in a real situation), Deadly (buyable), and five pieces of relequen. Relequen is extremely bad for this parse, though. As I said, he literally did not light attack at all. The fifth set piece of rele contributed 800 DPS. Any other DPS set would likely work better. For ease, we'll say just use Hundings which is craftable.

Yes, I doubt it to be true. You have more faith in the player base than I do. And beside the point, because you're not going to get a lot of people playing templars exclusively just to achieve this, and you can't extrapolate from one example of one class and ability to claim this is something easily achievable across the board. And again, if you can't add at least 40,000 to that damage, it's not evidence that weaving doesn't matter, or whatever exactly your point is. If weaving didn't make a real difference, they wouldn't be messing with it.

The point of the weaving nerf seems to be that they want to bring the inexperienced player floor up. They should be able to do more content with less effort, right?
We have here a parse that could let them do really anything outside of hardmodes that requires no weaving, no potions, buyable and craftable armor sets, and one skill. The skill required to do this is to literally press one button repeatedly. Inexperienced players can parse *very* high and do plenty of content.

You seem to think the reason we don't see this is because this parse is too hard for your average player to do.
My point is we don't see new players doing this sort of thing because they'd have no idea how to do it; not because they can't. If ZoS wants these players to get better, they need to invest some in teaching them how to do things rather than dropping nerfs on things they already can't do.

No, my only real point is that in general you can't just slap some good sets on bad players and expect them to do 60k parses right off the bat. But I think I got to misunderstanding you a bit because of your comment about weaving being a non-issue. I interpreted it to be an argument in the same vein as a couple posts in this thread asserting that people could do 100k parses with zero weaving, which starts to sound crazy. In retrospect, I realize such posts might have been meant as arguments for why Zos needs to leave weaving alone, because even bad players can do amazing damage without it, but when I read such comments all I think is that if a bad player could do that, then with proper weaving a good player should be able to easily do something like a 140k+ - which Zos clearly doesn't want to see.

So let's do a reset. Yes, I agree that with proper gear and the right setup (although maybe not one built well for survivability, in this case), even an average player should be able to parse enough to qualify for the majority of higher end content in the game, at least with many guilds. If they can't, it's not just the fault of Zos for not doing a better job of teaching the player, but also the fault of the players themselves. Those players would probably argue that they only have limited time to play the game, that they're older and don't have the dexterity of younger players, etc., whatever, but most of us who have played the game long enough know that it often boils down to those players just not wanting to make the effort. You can gather this from a lot of the comments you see them making over the years, like when you see them making blanket statements about not using any addons because they want to experience the game as it's "meant to be" or some such nonsense when you suggest they install Combat Metrics to help with parsing. Or just look at some of the comments in this thread, claiming unfair advantage on the part of players who can properly weave, which in a nutshell means they just never put a lot of effort into doing better.

Which brings me to the point which I think the majority of long-time players agree with: a person who does 1000+ hours on a parse dummy, who puts in that much effort, SHOULD be better than the player who has made no effort, and the game should reward him or her for that effort. I believe Zos is going in the wrong direction here, alienating a lot of it's long-time player base. I'm not sure what's going on internally, if they're seeing falling player numbers and are desperate to get more people onboard, or the player base is as strong as ever but they just want more money, but whichever is the case, I've personally gone from being pretty sure that I would be sticking with the game for at least a few more years to thinking that it might be about time to go back to GW2 or another MMO until something like Ashes of Creation finally comes around - something that doesn't feel like it's being tailored for my ailing grandma to play.