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Additional Context on U23 Combat Changes

  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    @Relic_Bearer

    They didn’t touch passives this patch. Supposedly passive traits are in the next round of the ability audit coming in Q4.

    I know it’s frustrating but changing active and passive skills all at the same time wouldn’t be doable by ZOS. They are barely capable of doing it the way they approach it now...
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • Relic_Bearer
    Relic_Bearer
    Soul Shriven
    They touched a few of them; Combustion, Rebate, Advanced Species, Heavy Weapons(Bleed), Fortress, Twin Blade and Blunt(Bleed). I understand what you're saying though, it would be impossible to do so many skills at once. What I can't wrap my head around is why target "actives" or "passives"? Why not look for under performing or dead skills and ask, "Why is it under performing?","How could I adjust this in a way that makes it a viable choice?", "Do I even need this skill in my game?"
    I've always used the snakeblood argument simply because it's been a dead skill since I started playing. They had the chance when poisons were introduced, but have ignored it for some reason. Instead I get triple interrupt shrouded daggers lol.

    For me personally, this was the last straw. I sincerely hope they get it right, but man I gotta be real. 11k steam hours tells me otherwise. It's time for me to find a new game. Glhf those of you who stick it out.<3
  • ManwithBeard9
    ManwithBeard9
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    @ZOS_RichLambert

    Putting a PVPer in charge of global combat balance in a game primarily played for PVE was utterly devoid of common sense. It's especially lame when not only have you not fixed the game breaking bugs in Cyrodiil, but actually made several of them worse, and introduced more. Fix it now before you gut your player base. As it stands, I will be canceling my ESO+ sub along with many other people.

    You may wither at the derision some people have directed at you over these things, but after 5 years of not addressing the sheer brokenness, you've earned it.

    3zd9ondrdhcp.png

    It wasn't any better when Wrobel was in charge either.
  • MehrunesFlagon
    MehrunesFlagon
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    @ZOS_RichLambert

    Putting a PVPer in charge of global combat balance in a game primarily played for PVE was utterly devoid of common sense. It's especially lame when not only have you not fixed the game breaking bugs in Cyrodiil, but actually made several of them worse, and introduced more. Fix it now before you gut your player base. As it stands, I will be canceling my ESO+ sub along with many other people.

    You may wither at the derision some people have directed at you over these things, but after 5 years of not addressing the sheer brokenness, you've earned it.

    3zd9ondrdhcp.png

    It wasn't any better when Wrobel was in charge either.

    tbh I think it was.
  • code65536
    code65536
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    @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam

    In PvE, the reason for support roles to exist is for them to do the things that are impractical for the DDs to do. It's impractical to ask DDs to survive a boss whose light attack hits for 40K, so that's why we must have a tank. Can you say the same about the healer role?
    Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU

    Dungeons and Trials:
    Personal best scores:
    Dungeon trifectas:
    Media: YouTubeTwitch
  • TheNightflame
    TheNightflame
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    code65536 wrote: »
    @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam

    In PvE, the reason for support roles to exist is for them to do the things that are impractical for the DDs to do. It's impractical to ask DDs to survive a boss whose light attack hits for 40K, so that's why we must have a tank. Can you say the same about the healer role?

    inb4 " we thought tanks were holding block and taunt too often, so turned blocking into a channel that is interrupted by any damage, upon being interrupted, it has a 30 second cool-down. Similarly an enemy that was taunted can not be re-taunted for 30 seconds after the taunt has expired. This change was made under the guise of making pve more interesting, (but was really made by disgruntled pvp bois).
  • TheNightflame
    TheNightflame
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    inb4 they say "this was to encourage dps to run higher stamina recovery so they can dodge roll and block attacks for themselves when needed"
  • Jodynn
    Jodynn
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    Healing springs has always worked, healers are used to it, healers like it, why change it, it feels good.

    Orbs, if you are going to just have one orb; stop this slowly moving crap and just make it a true ground HoT/DoT so it's consistent and reliable rather than "Oh you'll get my heals sometime, maybe, but don't move, until now, mk?"

    Vigor is overpowered and compromises the role of healer, sure they do more than just heal and also buff, but if you can replace with a DD you can do more damage than 2 buffers just have one, or just make a DD where a buff set and keep going.

    I can't speak much for other classes, I main and only play magDK really, I've tried all the other classes in end game and I just don't like it and would rather just not play the game; that being said, I'm feeling really lacking in competitive power here, I still do substantial DPS but my skill is outweighed by the fact people have executes and diminish my role and stam do more damage although I'm also a melee.

    This patch makes me question if eruption is even worth the 5.5k mag, is a shame to not have any earth heart skills other than Battle Roar passive, people are concerned with identity, well, this is a good way to lose it.
    Edited by Jodynn on July 17, 2019 1:23PM
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • code65536
    code65536
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    The more I think about it, the more it's clear to me why the changes were made.

    It's a part of their standardization, where they see healing as a direct counterpart to damage.

    So if ground DoTs can't be stacked, then ground HoTs shouldn't be stackable either.

    If ground DoTs do 1K DPS, then ground HoTs should do 1K HPS.

    Simple, right? And if you're balancing for a 1v1 duel, then this would be perfect. But, well, that's not how most of the game works.

    It's a childishly naive approach to balance that eschews all nuance and consideration to how the game is actually played.

    And no, I don't believe for one second that they did it for performance. Or because they think healers should change things up for funsies. Or anything other than this child-like vision of how things should be balanced. They'd rather shoehorn everything into this model (adapting playstyles, eliminating roles, nerfing content), regardless of whether it makes sense, regardless of whether there are far-reaching and unexpected consequences. Rather than tailoring a combat model around engaging gameplay that have meaningful role distinctions.

    That's what I mean by this being childishly naive. It's the kind of balance you get from a spreadsheet than from a gameplay designer.
    Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU

    Dungeons and Trials:
    Personal best scores:
    Dungeon trifectas:
    Media: YouTubeTwitch
  • Olauron
    Olauron
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    I'd like to provide some additional context to homogenization of the classes. If all classes are played the same, if skill slots are used for nonclass skills mostly, then there is no reason to make new characters and as a result there is no reason to buy additional character slots from the Crown Store.
    The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
    One mer to rule them all,
    one mer to find them,
    One mer to bring them all
    and in the darkness bind them.
  • Jodynn
    Jodynn
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    code65536 wrote: »
    The more I think about it, the more it's clear to me why the changes were made.

    It's a part of their standardization, where they see healing as a direct counterpart to damage.

    So if ground DoTs can't be stacked, then ground HoTs shouldn't be stackable either.

    If ground DoTs do 1K DPS, then ground HoTs should do 1K HPS.

    Simple, right? And if you're balancing for a 1v1 duel, then this would be perfect. But, well, that's not how most of the game works.

    It's a childishly naive approach to balance that eschews all nuance and consideration to how the game is actually played.

    And no, I don't believe for one second that they did it for performance. Or because they think healers should change things up for funsies. Or anything other than this child-like vision of how things should be balanced. They'd rather shoehorn everything into this model (adapting playstyles, eliminating roles, nerfing content), regardless of whether it makes sense, regardless of whether there are far-reaching and unexpected consequences. Rather than tailoring a combat model around engaging gameplay that have meaningful role distinctions.

    That's what I mean by this being childishly naive. It's the kind of balance you get from a spreadsheet than from a gameplay designer.

    Agree 100% with you
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • Malada
    Malada
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    Shadow Cloak no longer benefits from the Dark Veil passives. So you want to lock the skill in place at 3 seconds so new players can benefit. Ok why not do that for all skills then? When I was a new player I understood my Shadow Cloak only lasted for like 2.5 seconds and I dealt with it. Looked forward to earning my Dark Veil ranks so I could use the Cloak proper. And with that said, you guys do realize how easy it is to decloak someone?

    It really sounds like you're trying to limit any buffs to the ability duration and then certifying by saying you're helping new players. I mean seriously, maybe this isn't the most important change however it just doesn't make sense. That's what I'm saying you're breaking continuity in the class, these types of exceptions should never be allowed. It's also insulting to those of who put the time in to level, rank up our passives, earn those skill points and then need the cloak for end game content. A new player probably isn't going to need Shadow Cloak as much as we do. Hell, the PvE side of the game, guards, enemies, all of it has been so diluted they may not even need to cloak unless running from a guard. There's nothing that hard or scary like in the old days when the struggle against the encounters on the map was real.

    You already took the other invisibility option out of the game, btw I tried that morph and it sucks. It's completely unnecessary. Grim Focus, Lotus Fan and the other gap closer Morph, Surprise Attack, Incap Strike, these are all useless skills now. There's no point in using them. Every single one of these abilities can be replaced with something that works. You did not improve them, they are simply 'unused' and left abandoned. Sure a few players will use them until they finally learn they are not needed and not noticeably beneficial.
    Edited by Malada on July 18, 2019 3:48PM
  • karekiz
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    code65536 wrote: »

    And no, I don't believe for one second that they did it for performance.

    Has anyone ever got a real quote from a developer about healing change to support performance? Everywhere I see that comment its from someone mentioning Cyrodil as this WILL be the patch to fix performance, but never from the developers themselves.

    Which is funny because Cyrodil could literally be why Cyrodil is having performance issues in the first place and you can't fix something designed to be broken in the first place.
  • Jagdkommando
    Jagdkommando
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    Zayoo wrote: »
    @ZOS_BrianWheeler

    You will need a LOT of compromise because really... Who did even come up with the ridiculous idea of only having one orb active at a time or making healers even less wanted? It sounds your ultimate goal was to completely wreck the game and make people scream at each other because possiblities are so limited. THIS IS A GAME ! IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN! Why do you constantly nerf and nerf, then buff again, then nerf again, then change this, then change that and then throw the whole thing overboard and start from scratch? Gonna tell you something about human beings in general... At some point there is just too much change !
    This game changes completely after EVERY patch. WHY??? Make better choices and stick to them. If I did my work like ZoS does theirs it wouldn't be long before I got fired.

    +1
  • Adernath
    Adernath
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    Aixy wrote: »
    @ZOS_BrianWheeler

    Five years later we are talking about "Orbs" and "Healing Springs stacking", when are we going to talk about:

    1 Health desync.-
    2 "in combat bug".-
    3 Players running on top of their mounts.-
    4. "Someone declined the invite".-
    5. The Future Of The Champion Point System ?????.-
    6. Server performance.-
    7. Cyrodiil Lag.-
    8. Group members in different instances.-
    9. Battleground: Premade vs solo players.-
    10. The inability to cc break.-
    11. Getting stuck in loading screens.-
    12. Blurred Terrain Textures.-
    13. Mail won't arrive unless you relog or change zones.-
    14. Light attacks randomly trap you in a heavy attack animation.-
    15. Crashing coming near to keeps with high number of player (lag again).-

    :'(

    You nailed it. These are the real big issues. Hopefully point 4 will get resolved soon and point 2 reduced.
  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
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    Heyo gang!
    In Update 23 our main focus was to ensure there was an ultimate point of reference for abilities to properly match up against one another in their respective categories. This provides us with a solid baseline, where all abilities fit within a set of standards/power levels and allows future balancing passes to be much easier and timely.

    Well, a simply question.
    How did you established what is "standard" ? Is it a certain set that was select that is the most balanced / mediocre set in your opinion and everything needs to have similar "power level" ? Or what about abilities ? May we know what was the method used to established "proper" skill ability level ?

    I ask, because I do realise that Developer of a game has a very different approach & point of view than player has. Would you share with us some of the "examples" concepts of your vision and "standards" ? You know, an example concept in certain category (Spam-ables, DOTs, Gap closers, Cast time abilities etc.) and what is their baseline ?
    Doing so would significantly improve communication & player experience, as players would more or less know what are you trying to do and would give you better feedback as a result.

    @ZOS_BrianWheeler
    @ZOS_Gilliam
    Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on July 21, 2019 9:34AM
  • Jodynn
    Jodynn
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    Heyo gang!
    In Update 23 our main focus was to ensure there was an ultimate point of reference for abilities to properly match up against one another in their respective categories. This provides us with a solid baseline, where all abilities fit within a set of standards/power levels and allows future balancing passes to be much easier and timely.

    Well, a simply question.
    How did you established what is "standard" ? Is it a certain set that was select that is the most balanced / mediocre set in your opinion and everything needs to have similar "power level" ? Or what about abilities ? May we know what was the method used to established "proper" skill ability level ?

    I ask, because I do realise that Developer of a game has a very different approach & point of view than player has. Would you share with us some of the "examples" concepts of your vision and "standards" ? You know, an example concept in certain category (Spam-ables, DOTs, Gap closers, Cast time abilities etc.) and what is their baseline ?
    Doing so would significantly improve communication & player experience, as players would more or less know what are you trying to do and would give you better feedback as a result.

    @ZOS_BrianWheeler
    @ZOS_Gilliam

    Transparency would be nice in this situation, I understand there are business secrets and some logic you wish to not share formulas and such; however, sharing with the player base simple context you have in line, perhaps a graph or spreadsheet of the abilities like single target DoT does this much, AOE DoT does this much, these are the rule-breakers and why, etc.
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • rpa
    rpa
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    On live (PCEU) overworld pve with 80ms ping, few of no other players nearby and out of prime time, I can't reliably switch bars, trigger skills, dodge, ccbreak and interrupt. I think that kind of stuff is more destructive to fun than any other nerf this far.
  • irstarkey57
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    It really feels like a lot of these “balance changes” are all made secretly to improve overall performance of the game that apparently can’t be fixed any other way. Tons of orbs not all over the screen....healing springs not being spammed....making aoe’s Undesirable (less calculation for game engine). I could be paranoid but I don’t see any other reason why so many unpopular decisions are being made at once unless to fix a bigger issue and cut your losses to save what would be an even bigger outrage; IE the game crashing. But what do I know other than what I’ve seen over 5 years.
  • Aixy
    Aixy
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    Adernath wrote: »
    Aixy wrote: »
    @ZOS_BrianWheeler

    Five years later we are talking about "Orbs" and "Healing Springs stacking", when are we going to talk about:

    1 Health desync.-
    2 "in combat bug".-
    3 Players running on top of their mounts.-
    4. "Someone declined the invite".-
    5. The Future Of The Champion Point System ?????.-
    6. Server performance.-
    7. Cyrodiil Lag.-
    8. Group members in different instances.-
    9. Battleground: Premade vs solo players.-
    10. The inability to cc break.-
    11. Getting stuck in loading screens.-
    12. Blurred Terrain Textures.-
    13. Mail won't arrive unless you relog or change zones.-
    14. Light attacks randomly trap you in a heavy attack animation.-
    15. Crashing coming near to keeps with high number of player (lag again).-

    :'(

    You nailed it. These are the real big issues. Hopefully point 4 will get resolved soon and point 2 reduced.


    Hey @Adernath thank you for your comment o:)
  • Skorro
    Skorro
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    Cool cool, context is always good ....

    But then you don't even drop in once to actually address some of the *many* concerns and questions brought up here?

    Killing it
  • Cinbri
    Cinbri
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    rpa wrote: »
    On live (PCEU) overworld pve with 80ms ping, few of no other players nearby and out of prime time, I can't reliably switch bars, trigger skills, dodge, ccbreak and interrupt. I think that kind of stuff is more destructive to fun than any other nerf this far.

    Agree. No matter how good buffs or how bad nerf - in the end perfomance ruining everything.
  • Halsif
    Halsif
    Soul Shriven
    The fact that guild and world skills are in some cases, exponentially more powerful than player class abilities is an absolute joke. There needs to be some serious focus on maintaining class identity in the upcoming patch notes now that their "baseline" has been set. The adjustment to degeneration, clench, soultrap (barf) are fine - sure - they give some classes alternative skills to compensate for dots that they may not natively have, but that's all this abilities should be; alternative's. As it stands now, every mag and Stam DD are using 2-4 class abilities and going through the same DOT rotation. There's a lot happening in this patch that is eradicating what was so attractive about the class and combat system in ESO when compared to other mmo's. Hopefully we see some good news this week.
  • ArctosCethlenn
    ArctosCethlenn
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    Malada wrote: »
    Shadow Cloak no longer benefits from the Dark Veil passives. So you want to lock the skill in place at 3 seconds so new players can benefit. Ok why not do that for all skills then? When I was a new player I understood my Shadow Cloak only lasted for like 2.5 seconds and I dealt with it. Looked forward to earning my Dark Veil ranks so I could use the Cloak proper. And with that said, you guys do realize how easy it is to decloak someone?

    It really sounds like you're trying to limit any buffs to the ability duration and then certifying by saying you're helping new players. I mean seriously, maybe this isn't the most important change however it just doesn't make sense. That's what I'm saying you're breaking continuity in the class, these types of exceptions should never be allowed. It's also insulting to those of who put the time in to level, rank up our passives, earn those skill points and then need the cloak for end game content. A new player probably isn't going to need Shadow Cloak as much as we do. Hell, the PvE side of the game, guards, enemies, all of it has been so diluted they may not even need to cloak unless running from a guard. There's nothing that hard or scary like in the old days when the struggle against the encounters on the map was real.

    You're forgetting that when Dark Veil was revamped to a static 2 second duration increase at rank 2, Shadow Cloak had its base duration reduced from 2.5s to 1s. Which caused a lot of issues in the low level cyrodiil campaigns, as well as with new players, because one second of invisibility was... special.
  • CambionDaemon
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    Just put soft caps on attributes and make us hybrids.

    Give all skills three morphs (Magicka/Stamina/Health).

    Admit that you are wrong and cannot balance PvE and PvP without separating them (no game company ever has).

    And finally redesign the original four class with the design aspect of the new two.
  • Jodynn
    Jodynn
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    my22y6oa8oh8.png

    Searing heat changes feel nice
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    my22y6oa8oh8.png

    Searing heat changes feel nice

    Have you tried using Soul Trap on top of all the other DoTs?

    It’s a nice parse and I like how distributed the damage is overall, yet the 20% DPS just by light attacking makes me sad.
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • BennyButton
    BennyButton
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    hello
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    my22y6oa8oh8.png

    Searing heat changes feel nice

    Have you tried using Soul Trap on top of all the other DoTs?

    It’s a nice parse and I like how distributed the damage is overall, yet the 20% DPS just by light attacking makes me sad.

    Are you not good at light attack weaving?
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    hello
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    my22y6oa8oh8.png

    Searing heat changes feel nice

    Have you tried using Soul Trap on top of all the other DoTs?

    It’s a nice parse and I like how distributed the damage is overall, yet the 20% DPS just by light attacking makes me sad.

    Are you not good at light attack weaving?

    It has nothing to do with being good or bad at it.

    On console light attack weaving (or should we call it animation canceling because that’s what it boils down to) is anything but reliable and you often cannot light attack weave in between skills.

    It’s a major design flaw that light attacks (!) make such a big part of your DPS Repertoire whereas other skills barely touch 10% or more than that.

    Well and then there’s still the thing that it’s a combat flaw ZOS couldn’t get rid of and then has been turned into a “feature“ because they had no idea of how to get rid of it (they try in U23 with adding cast times to Ultimates though so it’s still not working as intended and I’m sure ZOS would remove it if they’d knew how). But this thread isn’t about animation canceling so no need to further discuss this topic here.
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • BennyButton
    BennyButton
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    hello
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    my22y6oa8oh8.png

    Searing heat changes feel nice

    Have you tried using Soul Trap on top of all the other DoTs?

    It’s a nice parse and I like how distributed the damage is overall, yet the 20% DPS just by light attacking makes me sad.

    Are you not good at light attack weaving?

    It has nothing to do with being good or bad at it.

    On console light attack weaving (or should we call it animation canceling because that’s what it boils down to) is anything but reliable and you often cannot light attack weave in between skills.

    It’s a major design flaw that light attacks (!) make such a big part of your DPS Repertoire whereas other skills barely touch 10% or more than that.

    Well and then there’s still the thing that it’s a combat flaw ZOS couldn’t get rid of and then has been turned into a “feature“ because they had no idea of how to get rid of it (they try in U23 with adding cast times to Ultimates though so it’s still not working as intended and I’m sure ZOS would remove it if they’d knew how). But this thread isn’t about animation canceling so no need to further discuss this topic here.

    let's break it down, shall we?

    Light attacking is there for a reason. It is one of the two attacks that do NOT cost magicka/stamina. Weaving is important so you do not run out of resources.

    100% dps:

    5 skills on each bar, let's say 4 skills total out of 10 don't actually provide damage, but are for you to survive and increase dps output (shield, channelled acceleration/trap, sustain tool such as rune, netch, dark deal etc, and a self heal). That leaves 6 skills that do damage (not considering ults). do you really thing 6 skills should add up to 100% dps??

    insane.

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