Additional Context on U23 Combat Changes

John_Falstaff

SlowMetabolism wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Varana , the changes are lopsided, after a fashion - for damage dealing, homogenization is the name of the game; AoEs getting nerfed, out-of-class single target abilities buffed. For healing, though, feels like everything is going the opposite direction - out of class group healing tools are nerfed, but somehow ZOS isn't in hurry to make up for it with in-class buffs. I really hope it's just a clumsy wording on their part and they do have further plans of making good on their any class, any role promise.

You talk about homogenization as if it is a bad thing then go on to say that you hope they essentially homogenize all of the classes so that they can all play any role. I just made a discussion about this the other day. When you make it so that every class has the ability to do X Y Z you really destroy the uniqueness and foundation the classes were originally set on. giving every class a heal/tank/damage skill line really limits the number of in class abilities worth running if they play one of the three roles.

I think you're putting your words in my mouth; I wasn't advocating homogenization. Every class being able to play any role is not homogenization, as long as they have unique playstyle and own things to bring to the group, own ways to deal with problems they see in the content. How to make that - it's ZOS' task, and they'd better think hard on how to do that. Turning the course towards segregating classes into tanks, healers, damage dealers is not diversity, it's the direct opposite of it.

RogueShark

Varana wrote: »

To be honest, I don't think this remark was meant as a goodbye to playing all roles with all classes. If anything, the changes of the last patches point in the opposite direction, i.e. trying (albeit rather clumsily, and not always effectively) to homogenise the classes.

It's just that not much thinking went into that remark, and/or an obvious ignorance of what this whole discussion is really about.

But it is a goodbye to playing all roles with all classes, in regards to healing. Not based on what was said, but based on what was done. Other classes lack the class utility/healing. Period. Buffing ritual to absurdity doesn't change that.

SlowMetabolism

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I think you're putting your words in my mouth; I wasn't advocating homogenization. Every class being able to play any role is not homogenization, as long as they have unique playstyle and own things to bring to the group, own ways to deal with problems they see in the content. How to make that - it's ZOS' task, and they'd better think hard on how to do that. Turning the course towards segregating classes into tanks, healers, damage dealers is not diversity, it's the direct opposite of it.

Homogenization- the process of making things uniform or similar.

How again is forcing changes that allow every class to have the ability to tank, heal, DD not homogenization? Combine that thought process with the "standardization" they have been implementing on spammables, heals, snares etc etc and what you get are not classes with unique abilities but rather abilities that cost the same, do the same damage and function the same. That is not good game design and is unhealthy in the overall scheme of things.

MehrunesFlagon

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Put on one defensive or sustain set. Just one. I know your epic DEEPS might drop by 10k or so, but you’ll live and the boss will still die and a dead dps=0 dps. The blinders that this community wear at times are lolworthy.

This is not pvp.

pieratsos

code65536 wrote: »

And the point of coordinated group content on a MMO--trials specifically--is role specialization. Yes, you can have DDs run defensive sets and slot more self-healing while also nerfing the incoming damage. But then what does that do to the role of the healer?

This isn't a "consistency" balance. This is a "let's re-imagine the existence of certain roles" balance. Either you are not being straight with us and calling it just a "consistency" pass, or you don't realize just how radical these changes are. And I'm not sure which of those two is worse.

DDs helping in certain difficult situations with heal checks by slotting a heal or some other utility is not "re-imagine the existence of certain roles".

Suddwrath

pieratsos wrote: »

DDs helping in certain difficult situations with heal checks by slotting a heal or some other utility is not "re-imagine the existence of certain roles".

Except that’s exactly what it is. Expecting DD to help with healing or defense is reimagining their roles.

Not only that, but having the DD help with healing is going to lower the group damage which in turn (such as with vHOF HM) is going to make it even more difficult to heal.

stpdmonkey

If we are expected to put on a sustain or defensive set that will drop our dps. Add onto the dps drop they are putting in and that will drop most dps in almost half. How is that beneficial to the game. I run with many different trial groups. Some great players. But still we dont get some speed runs or anything like that. These changes hurt the game entirely. If every class is basically the same then what is the point of multiple classes. Just having a different skill design but it does the same thing. Makes no sense. My magplar dps is not a 50k dps. I aim to be beneficial to the group not just kill everything fast. These changes are bringing the end of eso. If zos is trying to push people to their other games this is the wrong way to do so. This puts me personally at where I wont ever go to another zos mmo. I don't see how basically removing all the good they did over the last 2 years and also killing more of the game will help in any way shape or form. I can count over 100 people I know that have said they are likely leaving due to what they are doing.

xeNNNNN

code65536 wrote: »

So for those classes without Cleansing Ritual...

You are now combat prayer bots hoping and praying its enough. Sadly.

Assuming the orbs stay as they are after week 2.

"Combat Prayer (morph):
This ability no longer ranks up by 1.1% healing efficiency, but instead reduces the cost as it ranks up." Spam change.

CipherNine

SlowMetabolism wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I think you're putting your words in my mouth; I wasn't advocating homogenization. Every class being able to play any role is not homogenization, as long as they have unique playstyle and own things to bring to the group, own ways to deal with problems they see in the content. How to make that - it's ZOS' task, and they'd better think hard on how to do that. Turning the course towards segregating classes into tanks, healers, damage dealers is not diversity, it's the direct opposite of it.

Homogenization- the process of making things uniform or similar.

How again is forcing changes that allow every class to have the ability to tank, heal, DD not homogenization? Combine that thought process with the "standardization" they have been implementing on spammables, heals, snares etc etc and what you get are not classes with unique abilities but rather abilities that cost the same, do the same damage and function the same. That is not good game design and is unhealthy in the overall scheme of things.

lol You do realize that this game was marketed from the start to be able to play any class in any role, right? Which is how a Elder Scrolls game should be.

JadonSky

So basically what I got from this response was take it or leave it attitude. I guess they forgot that the players paying for this game are the reasons they have jobs.

But hey they know best right like when they added a cast time to Shields, that worked out real well... oh wait.

OtarTheMad

Thank you for the update Brian, while some changes are still head scratchers it kind of all makes some sense. I'm looking forward to testing this more.

SlowMetabolism

CipherNine wrote: »

SlowMetabolism wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I think you're putting your words in my mouth; I wasn't advocating homogenization. Every class being able to play any role is not homogenization, as long as they have unique playstyle and own things to bring to the group, own ways to deal with problems they see in the content. How to make that - it's ZOS' task, and they'd better think hard on how to do that. Turning the course towards segregating classes into tanks, healers, damage dealers is not diversity, it's the direct opposite of it.

Homogenization- the process of making things uniform or similar.

How again is forcing changes that allow every class to have the ability to tank, heal, DD not homogenization? Combine that thought process with the "standardization" they have been implementing on spammables, heals, snares etc etc and what you get are not classes with unique abilities but rather abilities that cost the same, do the same damage and function the same. That is not good game design and is unhealthy in the overall scheme of things.

lol You do realize that this game was marketed from the start to be able to play any class in any role, right? Which is how a Elder Scrolls game should be.

lol you do realize any class can play any role, right? The player who decides to turn a sorc into a tank for example, just needs to go in with the mindset that what he is doing, while it may be fun/off meta, is not as competetive a playstyle when compared to a DK tank at endgame. For someone to say that every class should be able to do every role on par with classes that were designed with their prowess in tanking/healing/DD in mind at their inception is really mind boggling.

ZarkingFrued

I like the orbs idea, I like most of the changes. Can we just have stun back on shock clench????? Take the AOE damage away, and just leave the stun! otherwise this will be a very unpopular skill and pretty much pointless. Really this is just another direct magden and magnecro nerf

Olauron

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
If your concern is too much DPS of some players you should take in mind that you can't combat it with nerfs. Those players will adapt. Others will be hit by collateral damage much harder. If your concern is too much DPS of some players then you should implement a hard cap of damage from one character to one enemy in one second (or in half a second). All extra damage should be treated as overdamage and ignored. That way you can choose a fixed number, limit DPS to it and balance all dungeons and trials with this number in mind.

pieratsos

SaltySudd wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDs helping in certain difficult situations with heal checks by slotting a heal or some other utility is not "re-imagine the existence of certain roles".

Except that’s exactly what it is. Expecting DD to help with healing or defense is reimagining their roles.

Not only that, but having the DD help with healing is going to lower the group damage which in turn (such as with vHOF HM) is going to make it even more difficult to heal.

No its not. Its called team play. Your DD is still ur DD. He is still the one doing the dmg. He isnt going to turn into a healer because he is going to use a heal every now and then or a defensive ult. He is just helping his group in a difficult situation when tanks and healers need some help. And thats assuming they even get to that point. Cause right now we are talking about refusing to even use actual healing/defensive ults in the most difficult situations by ur healers and tanks which supposedly is their primary job to keep the group alive.

sevomd69

I guess I'm doing the Harborage quests on all my toons...

Nifty2g

sevomd69 wrote: »

I guess I'm doing the Harborage quests on all my toons...

Pretty sure that skill is unlocked from the start of the game

Minno

Nifty2g wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

I guess I'm doing the Harborage quests on all my toons...

Pretty sure that skill is unlocked from the start of the game

And that DMG only possible with Oblivion for set. So it's going to be fun pressuring with cc that build and causing them to look for a new build after a week lol

Betty_Booms

Hi,

I'm having trouble understanding the context how the addition of a stamina based heal is going to assist with the reduction of a magicka based ability...

In your wisdom is it best to drop the resto line and run a stamina heals build with Vigor and ring of preservation? Is that what you mean? Or do I become a hybrid healer?

Or do I bench my sorcerer and turn my templar into a healer since they will clearly be by far the best/only choice considered for trials after these changes?

I feel that they will skew the defining factors of the healing role and their responsibility.
Its a healers role to heal.. its a DDs role to optimise damage output.

And its fine for organised groups to work out and synergise to deal with is...
But....Hows group finder gonna be affected?
DD: "Hey dude wheres my heals I died"
Healer: "Well why aren't you wearing fortified brass and slotting vigor"?
DD: "Because I'm not a tank or a healer"
Healer: "We all are now..."
Just imagine how toxic vet DLC dungeons will be. may as well remove them from the GF list...

On a different note can you revisit the change to twilight tormentor?
After the the massive damage reduction to all things sorc, who will slot this since it will be only effective for 50% of the fight?
Maybe consider taking the 50% health requirement away. Not sure how someone can factor this into a rotation anyway when they stop using it half way through the fight and it becomes a dead skill on your bar....fun stuff.

Also,, maybe buffing the healing mundus....This may help bridge the canyon...

Stealth4665

Wait wait wait were we just told to use more defensive ults when last patch they took away a fantastic defensive ult from the Templar for a bad offensive one? (aka empowering sweeps' major protection removal.) If you want us to use more defensive ults why take one of the best templar ones away? This doesn't make much sense to me, first you want us to use more offensive ults by changing empowering sweeps then you want us to use defensive morphs for ults. Which is it? And if you want use to use more defensive setups give us back the old empowering sweep, with major protection. I am all for not just using offensive sets/skills, but please give Templars the option to be defensive with the old morph.

Steel-256

"This is something we will be watching closely, however we are not averse to the idea that players might need to adjust their current builds such as running more defensive Ultimates rather than offensive ones, or running more survival enhancing sets, rather than pure damage or buff oriented ones. "

This right here tells me that instead of the way the game was once said to be, " play the way and style you want to play" well this is thrown right out the window. SUSTAIN is hit again, healing hit again, damage hit again, we just thought morrowind was bad and now we get a random patch that does just as bad. What gets me is the patch doesnt address the big elephant in the room and that is BUGS! We need things fixed not nerfed or changed. PVP is a crap storm, IN-COMBAT is ridiculous right now. Not going to go off on everything but come on fix some things and worry about combat changes later. GEEZ

Jodynn

Steel-256 wrote: »

"This is something we will be watching closely, however we are not averse to the idea that players might need to adjust their current builds such as running more defensive Ultimates rather than offensive ones, or running more survival enhancing sets, rather than pure damage or buff oriented ones. "

This right here tells me that instead of the way the game was once said to be, " play the way and style you want to play" well this is thrown right out the window. SUSTAIN is hit again, healing hit again, damage hit again, we just thought morrowind was bad and now we get a random patch that does just as bad. What gets me is the patch doesnt address the big elephant in the room and that is BUGS! We need things fixed not nerfed or changed. PVP is a crap storm, IN-COMBAT is ridiculous right now. Not going to go off on everything but come on fix some things and worry about combat changes later. GEEZ

Steel-256 wrote: »

"This is something we will be watching closely, however we are not averse to the idea that players might need to adjust their current builds such as running more defensive Ultimates rather than offensive ones, or running more survival enhancing sets, rather than pure damage or buff oriented ones. "

This right here tells me that instead of the way the game was once said to be, " play the way and style you want to play" well this is thrown right out the window. SUSTAIN is hit again, healing hit again, damage hit again, we just thought morrowind was bad and now we get a random patch that does just as bad. What gets me is the patch doesnt address the big elephant in the room and that is BUGS! We need things fixed not nerfed or changed. PVP is a crap storm, IN-COMBAT is ridiculous right now. Not going to go off on everything but come on fix some things and worry about combat changes later. GEEZ

Different teams, Different skill set

Also, my sustain is better this patch, magDK, and so should anyone using degen.

CynicK

Some of the thiefs' teeth fell off maybe it is for lying, are you sure you are not nerfing my builds because the programer escaped and you did not get more games? It is always the same with the resentful and vengeful people that got the games but to others I had not given them a coin what I now regret deeply. The programer is happy now that is what matters well he says the game is his but I doubt he wants your money, well maybe their teeth fell off for spiting and the kicking lol. The problem for me is always the same maybe i should try to stop playing mmorpgs alltogether.

karekiz

Meanwhile the bank is waiting on previous request.

Aixy

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Five years later we are talking about "Orbs" and "Healing Springs stacking", when are we going to talk about:

1 Health desync.-
2 "in combat bug".-
3 Players running on top of their mounts.-
4. "Someone declined the invite".-
5. The Future Of The Champion Point System ?????.-
6. Server performance.-
7. Cyrodiil Lag.-
8. Group members in different instances.-
9. Battleground: Premade vs solo players.-
10. The inability to cc break.-
11. Getting stuck in loading screens.-
12. Blurred Terrain Textures.-
13. Mail won't arrive unless you relog or change zones.-
14. Light attacks randomly trap you in a heavy attack animation.-
15. Crashing coming near to keeps with high number of player (lag again).-

Jodynn

Different teams, Different skill set

ArenGesus

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Different teams, Different skill set

Presumably you're responding to the comment above yours, in which case this is such a stupid answer. Nobody here cares what the teams are who do different things. The point stands that zos can choose to spend its resources in different ways and the way that they are currently doing so is not to resolve long-standing issues that severely detract from the game for a huge number of players. If they're different teams, great - change the size and makeup of those teams.

That being said, it will never happen so it's not worth discussing.

Sandman929

Aixy wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Five years later we are talking about "Orbs" and "Healing Springs stacking", when are we going to talk about:

1 Health desync.-
2 "in combat bug".-
3 Players running on top of their mounts.-
4. "Someone declined the invite".-
5. The Future Of The Champion Point System ?????.-
6. Server performance.-
7. Cyrodiil Lag.-
8. Group members in different instances.-
9. Battleground: Premade vs solo players.-
10. The inability to cc break.-
11. Getting stuck in loading screens.-
12. Blurred Terrain Textures.-
13. Mail won't arrive unless you relog or change zones.-
14. Light attacks randomly trap you in a heavy attack animation.-
15. Crashing coming near to keeps with high number of player (lag again).-

No ETA

Zayoo

master_vanargand wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

bulcke10 wrote: »

I'm happy with this patch 👌 why are there so many haters in this game without testing and theorycrafting 🤔 I'm happy because this game is far from death with this mutch effort they put on the game for 5 years 👍 hope they continue until they have a new elders scrolls online game 👏

So if u hate en put negative things on this forum why do you play this game?

this looks really balanced

This is using a cheap trick.
He uses Minor + Major Mending and other many passive skills.

Well so what? Use that + Ring of Preservation on two people and your healer can go **** himself... Just did dungeons on the PTS. Healer was completely useless. Now expand that from 4 people to 12. 10 Orc Stamina Necros + 2 tanks and you are done with your raid group.

Jodynn

ArenGesus wrote: »

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Different teams, Different skill set

Presumably you're responding to the comment above yours, in which case this is such a stupid answer. Nobody here cares what the teams are who do different things. The point stands that zos can choose to spend its resources in different ways and the way that they are currently doing so is not to resolve long-standing issues that severely detract from the game for a huge number of players. If they're different teams, great - change the size and makeup of those teams.

That being said, it will never happen so it's not worth discussing.

But using the correct forums and discussions will get you to the right people rather than posting on a forum rather than them writing it off because it's not their problem or job.