Zos knows this is an active thread and they are aware of its existence. As long as we are politely persistent we have a chance. Let’s not continue a conversation from a locked thread and let’s not feed trolls.

Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go.

I've got to say that I wanted to have a single character to play through DB & TG as a thief/assassin. At the time the stealth passive on the Bosmer made that race the logical choice.

I have no intention of changing race but I will have to put up with the fact that this character isn't going to be as stealthy as they were when I started. I suppose some armor choices might help in that regard but they won't ever be as stealthy as they could have been.

A haiku:

On this summer day
pretended not to have seen
a Bosmer sneak away.


Yes, the last line has six syllables. That's on purpose. Artistic freedom 'n all.

max_only wrote: »

Zos knows this is an active thread and they are aware of its existence. As long as we are politely persistent we have a chance. Let’s not continue a conversation from a locked thread and let’s not feed trolls.

Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go.

Wasn't that Oscar Wilde?

I had a thread on this that just got taken down because this one exists, its far to long for me to try to seek answers, i just presume that a dev never actually gave a comment as to why the Bosmer have been stripped of their sneek passive.
To me this is a complete lore breaking decision and has ruined my Bosmer for me.
I don't like playing beast races, i don't enjoy the Khajiit and i don't like feeling forced into race-changing into being one.

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

I had a thread on this that just got taken down because this one exists, its far to long for me to try to seek answers, i just presume that a dev never actually gave a comment as to why the Bosmer have been stripped of their sneek passive.
To me this is a complete lore breaking decision and has ruined my Bosmer for me.
I don't like playing beast races, i don't enjoy the Khajiit and i don't like feeling forced into race-changing into being one.

You are correct in your presumption.

The only notice ZOS took of this thread was to chide us for not playing nice with trolls.

Race-changing always seemed weird to me. I mean, I get it if you're playing a "toon", and it's just a bundle of game mechanics to you and not a person. You want to change how your toon plays, so you change it to get the best passives, fine. Whatever works for you.

But I play immersively. My characters have back-story, and temperament, and my Bosmer isn't going to suddenly become a Khajiit because he'd like to be stealthier anymore than I'm going to become Japanese so that I can read kanji.

(And it's even weirder that I can change my entire race but not my profession. I had a pet-centric sorc alchemist that I never played, that I would have totally changed to a Warden when Vvardenfell came out because it made good sense for his internal story and development. But they don't let you do that relatively straightforward thing -- really just changing your career -- meanwhile you can totally change race, gender, and other fundamental physical characteristics for a few crowns. But that's another gripe entirely.)

The idea that I'd have to change my character's race -- destroy the internal story that makes him real and valuable to me -- to regain a racial skill that has traditionally been a part of his original race.... That seems nuts to me.

HowTaoBrownCow wrote: »

Race-changing always seemed weird to me. I mean, I get it if you're playing a "toon", and it's just a bundle of game mechanics to you and not a person. You want to change how your toon plays, so you change it to get the best passives, fine. Whatever works for you.

But I play immersively. My characters have back-story, and temperament, and my Bosmer isn't going to suddenly become a Khajiit because he'd like to be stealthier anymore than I'm going to become Japanese so that I can read kanji.

(And it's even weirder that I can change my entire race but not my profession. I had a pet-centric sorc alchemist that I never played, that I would have totally changed to a Warden when Vvardenfell came out because it made good sense for his internal story and development. But they don't let you do that relatively straightforward thing -- really just changing your career -- meanwhile you can totally change race, gender, and other fundamental physical characteristics for a few crowns. But that's another gripe entirely.)

The idea that I'd have to change my character's race -- destroy the internal story that makes him real and valuable to me -- to regain a racial skill that has traditionally been a part of his original race.... That seems nuts to me.

Agreed, I have developed an emotional attachment to my characters as well.

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.

Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.
High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.

So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.

There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.

They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.


edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.

Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.

Let’s see:

Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant

Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.

Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
Resist Disease 75% – Passive

Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%

Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.

And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.

NO, you're ignoring it because it completely negates your position.

What has never changed from game to game is the central role of the race.

Orcs have NEVER been particularly magical.
Bretons have NEVER been particularly warrior like.

And this can be done for each and every race.

So, answer or acknowledge that you are wrong: to what thief ability do Bosmeri have a bonus now?

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.

Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.
High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.

So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.

There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.

They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.


edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.

Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.

Let’s see:

Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant

Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.

Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
Resist Disease 75% – Passive

Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%

Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.

And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.

What the series hasn't been doing is mess with race defining skills and attributes. The only thing that comes even remotely close is removing Acrobatics from Oblivion to Skyrim, which put Khajiit in an identity crisis and ended with them getting more points in sneak than Bosmer and a bonus to unarmed so they were still special.
Acrobatics is a thing in ESO because dodgerolling is a thing here, so now ZOS could give them their acrobatics and reduce sneak or return acrobatics but stick to the sneak OR stick to the sneak but ignore acrobatics and change the lore to support it. And if ZOS decided to change the lore (which btw, they don't have free reign on since the franchise is owned by Bethesda Game Studios and not ZOS, even if they both belong to Bethesda Softworks), then they better start making some books and rewriting some older text to back up their changes. Heck, they even gave an in-lore explanation for the stamina regen on Altmers. It was a very stupid one admittedly, but they did nothing of the sort for Bosmer.
ZOS should come out of hiding already and communicate. If not to the fans about important issues, then at least to communicate the changes to the lore of their own game.
We all know racial passives have changed in the past. But none of them were messing with the core identity of the race. Khajiit remained sneaky martial artist monks and pickpockets. Bosmer were always stealthy archers, Bretons were always human mages with magic resistance. Altmer were always purely magical. None of that ever changed until now, after 25 years!
There are plenty of instances were racial passives got changed for balance reasons and other reasons. Skyrim got rid of weaknesses, which was a design decision that ESO picked up. Some of these changes make sense! But this one just doesn't! There are things you can remove without hurting the core identity of a race, like the poison resistance on Redguards. They are still the weapon masters without it. Argonians are defined by their resistances, as are Bretons, Nords and Dunmer. It's not as clear to me personally with Bosmer resistances, but others here would say yes and I definitely agree that their ties to nature make the poison resistance far more important to them than to Redguards.
I also advocated for Altmer getting a weakness to the elements and bonus to magicka/magicka recovery/spell damage in return instead of the spell recharge passive, because that would be closer to the lore, be an interesting passive and allow for the choice to go glass canon or be safer, without hurting the Breton = sustain / Altmer = power thing ZOS came up with, even though Altmer were known for their superior magicka recovery. But I understand why adding weaknesses to races would upset some people and that's why you don't see me or anyone else complaining about it.
But detection is a bad concept and a bad execution and a bad replacement and has no lore behind it at all! It's an insult, because stealth has been at the core of their identity for 25 years along with archery/marksman skill. If they are removing stealth, what is left of them? The archery is hardly represented at all. Redguards have great sustain too and they are better at using weapons than Bosmer. Is their new identity supposed to be guard duty? That's what detection at the cost of stealth does. That's a 180° turn and that's unprecedented. Keep bringing up all these examples that we are leaving out please, but none of them even compare.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

ZOS finally answered!

They locked the other thread.

Sooooooooooo… that's your outcome.

Of course they did. They need more space for universal auction house threads, and why (Insert Class) needs to be nerfed for PvP reasons.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

ZOS finally answered!

They locked the other thread.

Sooooooooooo… that's your outcome.

Of course they did. They need more space for universal auction house threads, and why (Insert Class) needs to be nerfed for PvP reasons.

They closed it because this is already a thread on the topic and there was no new nuance to that other thread. Although I agree, it's a much more important topic than another dead horse beating, it's still better to have it all collected in one place rather. But it's good to see that other people have not forgotten this issue and care as much as we do.
@Starlight_Knight Welcome on board! Don't worry, you don't have to read all 81 pages to join the discussion. There has been nothing official other than a non-official talk at a convention that didn't answer any of our concerns but hinted at the intention of opening up stealth to more races. Let's hope they didn't mean "nerf Bosmer so everyone is equal".

Yeah. I know, I was being sarcastic.

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.

Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.
High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.

So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.

There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.

They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.


edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.

Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.

Let’s see:

Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant

Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.

Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
Resist Disease 75% – Passive

Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%

Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.

And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.

I see you have not mastered the art of google-fu.

First let me repost what I wrote to you in the other thread.

OK Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.

(Hopefully I got the order correct.)

Elder Scrolls 1 Arena



Thieves...hmmm.

Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall



Thieves again...

Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind



Skill Bonuses

Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5


Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion



Skill Bonuses

Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10


Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim



Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)

Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)

And I should just as well mention;

Elder Scrolls Online (original description)



Full manuals can be found here;

https://manuals.bethsoft.com

Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth.

Now your weird scattershot point is what exactly? That some secondary stats change from game to game? Yes, because each game tried to get the overall theme of the race as best they could with the systems they created for the game. But the themes stayed consistent even if the systems to recreate them changed. Now unlike you who just picked skills at random and pretended to make a point. Let's choose two non-wood elf races and see how their skills progressed from Morrowind through Skyrim.

Morrowind;

Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor

High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion

Oblivion;

Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor

High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10

Skyrim;

Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)

High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting

Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.

Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere. And Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).

I don’t think you get the point of —> the devs can do whatever they want with the lore, if you’re going to get mad or annoyed about lore changing then eso and elder scrolls isn’t for you. This isn’t exclusive to this game or dev, Bethesda has done it and done it with Fallout. All they do is change lore and make up something to justify it.

I never said they aren’t thieves either. I only gave their description. You guys are the ones dismissing my points, I never dismissed a single point, I said you guys are leaving out lore. Sure stealth is a defining trait but so is speed, one got sacrificed for the other.

Even if we are counting both stealth and speed as defining traits, stealth detect has nothing to do with either of those.