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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

  • CatchMeTrolling
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    I’m back. You guys are having a hard time admitting that you simply want the passive of your preference. That sounds a lot better than saying zos didn’t follow lore when they did. When it comes to the races they don’t have everything that’s in the lore. The ones that actually have a case are the argonians.

    We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
  • Marginis
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    Koronach wrote: »
    Marginis wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Marginis wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Marginis wrote: »
    Marginis wrote: »
    I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

    Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

    Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

    You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

    What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

    @Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
    If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
    Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

    ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
    We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

    I'm not sure I'd agree that the lore is as trampled as you say, and I personally think that while lore is important (I lead a lore-friendly roleplay guild, afterall) I do think it takes a backseat to balance and gameplay. However, I absolutely agree that a different type of stealth bonus would be great. Sneak speed, sneak cost, maybe even something unique like brief invisibility upon activating sneak. I just think it's a boring and uninventive solution to just give the same boring bonus there was and take away the uniqueness from both Khajiit and Bosmer. Khajiit have always had their thing, but Bosmer deserve better than to just be a slightly more stamina focused Khajiit.

    Yes, I agree it takes a backseat to balance and gameplay. But I'd say it only goes that far. I wouldn't be demanding stealth for Bosmer if stealth wasn't a thing in ESO. I am not demanding chameleon like skin and invisibility near plants, even if that would be in line with the lore. Stealth is gameplay in ESO after all and ZOS limited choice - the very thing they wanted to increase.
    But if we have racial passives in this game, then they better reflect the races as they are represented in the game's lore as closely as possible within the boundaries set by gameplay and balance. That's the point of having racial passives in the first place. You are meant to not only read about the physiology of the races but experience it in action as you play. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then the race choice might as well be purely cosmetic, because the boni don't actually mean anything. And if the game requires a system to grant you buffs for balance, you can turn that into a "choose your destiny" at the start of the game where you can pick if you want to be stealthy, magical or tough. That would do players a greater favor than adding racials that are completely disconnected from the source material.

    Your suggestion of a "choose your destiny" mechanic is actually something I suggested some time ago, and I think would go a long way to alleviating some of these racial passive issues the community has. As far as the discussion there and in other posts went, however, most people seem to want abilities restricted to a specific race. Therein lies the problem of everyone wanting the limited abilities for their preferred race to be something different from what everyone else wants.

    Link for reference:
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/405774/racial-passives-a-poll/p1

    It also looks like the majority wanted them left alone looking at the poll. Well leave them alone got the most votes out of the others. Instead ZoS felt the need to change them and break some of the races lore within the game.

    A plurality for sure was for not changing anything, primarily I think for fear of a change not being to their liking (like here), but a majority did want change. They just didn't agree on what the best change would be. It's one of those things where we all see the problem, we just can't agree on how we should fix it (or how big the problem is in the first place).

    In any matter, overall, I much prefer the current racial passives. This isn't to say they can't be improved (particularly the Bosmer passives), but the system is much more fair to people overall. In some ways it's a fix one thing, break another deal.
    @Marginis on PC, Senpai Fluffy on Xbox, Founder of Magicka. Also known as Kha'jiri, The Night Mother, Ma'iq, Jane Shepard, Damia, Kintyra, Zoor Do Kest, You, and a few others.
  • CatchMeTrolling
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    If by 'preference' you mean 20 some odd years of lore, from multiple lore books and every single player game, then yes.

    Saying they followed lore when they obviously did not is a lie. The lore is that Bosmer are thieves. Always have been, just like the Khajiit (edit to add: actually, slightly more so than the Khajiit if we are to be honest). Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.

    This isn’t a single player game, it’s an mmo. They’re using whatever part of the lore they want to. I like how you ignored the parts that’s left out about the other races too. You know the things that have been in the lore for a long time as well?

    They removed lore for lore. To say it’s not lore because you don’t agree with the change is the lie.
  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
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    There's an ESO haiku thread now. I put in two Bosmer ones already.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
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    max_only wrote: »
    Zos knows this is an active thread and they are aware of its existence. As long as we are politely persistent we have a chance. Let’s not continue a conversation from a locked thread and let’s not feed trolls.

    Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go.

    Wasn't that Oscar Wilde?
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    Give me one good reason why stealth should not be restored to the passive.

    Because uniqueness. *desperately avoiding all of the not-at-all-unique aspects of the current passives across races*

    *and desperately avoiding the fact that no other race has roll-dodge shenanigans*
    NO!
    Unique unique unique! Lalalalalalalalalalala *fingers in ears* I can't hear you.


    That's why.

    I remain unconvinced, for my own part.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Jaraal
    Jaraal
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    Give me one good reason why stealth should not be restored to the passive.

    Because uniqueness. *desperately avoiding all of the not-at-all-unique aspects of the current passives across races*

    *and desperately avoiding the fact that no other race has roll-dodge shenanigans*
    NO!
    Unique unique unique! Lalalalalalalalalalala *fingers in ears* I can't hear you.


    That's why.

    I remain unconvinced, for my own part.

    Exactly. Give as many races stealth as they gave stamina buffs, and then let's talk about uniqueness. And by all means, let us continue to burn stamina rolling along if some wish it. And let people continue to imagine (giggle) they can find hidden players better, if the think it's worthwhile.

    I'm not asking for anything to be taken away. Only for them to add the one thing that defines the name Bosmer.
  • BlueRaven
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    Race-changing always seemed weird to me. I mean, I get it if you're playing a "toon", and it's just a bundle of game mechanics to you and not a person. You want to change how your toon plays, so you change it to get the best passives, fine. Whatever works for you.

    But I play immersively. My characters have back-story, and temperament, and my Bosmer isn't going to suddenly become a Khajiit because he'd like to be stealthier anymore than I'm going to become Japanese so that I can read kanji.

    (And it's even weirder that I can change my entire race but not my profession. I had a pet-centric sorc alchemist that I never played, that I would have totally changed to a Warden when Vvardenfell came out because it made good sense for his internal story and development. But they don't let you do that relatively straightforward thing -- really just changing your career -- meanwhile you can totally change race, gender, and other fundamental physical characteristics for a few crowns. But that's another gripe entirely.)

    The idea that I'd have to change my character's race -- destroy the internal story that makes him real and valuable to me -- to regain a racial skill that has traditionally been a part of his original race.... That seems nuts to me.

    Agreed, I have developed an emotional attachment to my characters as well.
  • CatchMeTrolling
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    We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
    Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.
    High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
    Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
    Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
    And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.

    So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.

    There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.

    They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.


    edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.

    Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.

    Let’s see:

    Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
    High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant

    Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.

    Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
    Resist Disease 75% – Passive

    Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%

    Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.

    And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.



  • Ratzkifal
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    TAMRIEL OUTLAW REFUGE CENSUS: Alliances and Chapters without Elsweyr
    I went through the base game zones and a selection of DLC/chapter zones and counted the number of members of each race to develop a criminal statistic. If a character there was not a criminal nor affiliated with them, they wouldn't be counted. Otherwise when in doubt, I would count them.
    To avoid overrepresentation these numbers have been taken by not counting Bretons in Breton territory, not counting Redguards in Redguard territory etc. For the purpose of the census, I decided that Bangkorai is Breton territory, because the outlaw refuge is in Evermore, which is still Breton territory.

    Overall:
    Altmer 17
    Argonian 19
    Breton 13
    Bosmer: 12
    Dunmer 12
    Imperial 2
    Khajiit 20+1
    Nord: 17
    Orc: 20
    Redguard 24+1

    I certainly did not expect so few Imperials even though I expected fewer of them than other races, but I was also having difficulties telling tanned Bretons, Imperials and Redguards apart. Usually the name would give it away, but it's possible some Bretons/Redguards were actually Imperials. Still, seeing so many more Altmer than Dunmer and Bosmer was a surprise to be sure. Orcs, not as much. Although they aren't very sneaky, they are known to be bandits.
    Here is the data broken down into alliances.
    Outlaw Refuge census part 1 DC territory + Wrothgar:
    Altmer: 4
    Argonian: 5
    Breton: 4 + 1 person pretending not to be an undercover guard
    Bosmer: 5
    Dunmer: 2
    Imperial 2
    Khajiit: 6 + 1 woman attracted to criminals and villains
    Nord: 4
    Orcs: 11
    Redguard: 11 + 1 guy who hangs out in the outlaw refuge but seems to hate criminals

    It comes as no surprise that DC races are overrepresented in DC zones, although I had expected that not to be the case with the way I am counting. That's why I decided to note the results of each alliance separately as well.

    Part 2 AD + Summerset (Outlaw Refuge and Mother's Den)
    Altmer: 10
    Argonian: 4
    Breton: 4
    Bosmer: 5 + one guy studying criminals with a very controversial theory
    Dunmer:4
    Imperial: 0
    Khajiit: 10
    Nord: 5
    Orc: 5
    Redguard: 7

    I am very surprised that even when not counting the Bosmer in their home zones, there weren't a whole lot of them around. I am also surprised how many Redguards are criminals. So far they seem disproportionally criminal.
    On the character I did the census on, I hadn't completed the quest of Velyn Harbor. It's possible that a lot of NPCs are missing there, because it felt rather empty.

    Part 3 EP + Vvardenfell

    Altmer: 3
    Argonian: 10
    Breton: 5
    Bosmer: 2
    Dunmer: 6
    Imperial: 0
    Khajiit: 4
    Nord: 8
    Orc: 4
    Redguard: 6

    As I suspected, Redguards are still quite criminal even outside their home territories. Curious.

    As it turns out, overrepresentation still happens, but it is tied to alliances more than each race individually.
    The census probably needs to be redone, but for now what can be done with the data is take out the races belonging to the alliance and check out those results.

    Corrected:
    Altmer 7
    Argonian 9
    Breton 9
    Bosmer 7
    Dunmer 6
    Imperial 2
    Khajiit: 10
    Nord 9
    Orc 9
    Redguard 13

    As we can see, Redguards are still strangely many, but this time Bosmer, while still behind, are closer to the rest than before. This data suggests that ZOS is probably trying to present a more well-mixed selection of characters to the player than sticking to stereotypes. Having almost or more than twice as many Redguards be criminals than 4 of the 9 other races have is a bit weird though, considering they aren't known to be faced with predjudice or notoriously criminal. Who would have thought?
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • HowTaoBrownCow
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    And I think that’s where the disconnect is. They see the game as a job, a bunch of numbers on a screen, a print out of statistics, deadlines, quotas, bosses, marketing, profit, etc..... whereas we see digital extensions of ourselves, a virtual family, shared with friends and guildmates. A chance to accomplish things and be people we couldn’t be in our day to day lives. And when those virtual realities that we mold and control and cultivate over several years are suddenly stripped or changed in a way that renders them no longer useful to us, then we are rightfully upset.... some more than others.

    I wonder if there aren't simply entirely different groups of devs with different mindsets working on the combat mechanics part of the game and the questing part of the game. If the racial passives are under the purview of the combat mechanics people, then they're thinking entirely about what things mean to trials and PvP and such, and the idea that a passive like sneaking would be important to the Bosmer character and lore and to the immersive players wouldn't really occur to them. Meanwhile, all the the lore people are busily writing great storylines like Murkmire, and books, and meaningful, moving characters, and not paying attention to what's going on with racial passives because that's not story related. And no one is in the middle saying, hey, there's overlap here. What you've done to this passive is meaningful to players in the same way that story-lore is meaningful.

    I've always been impressed with how ZOS has managed to create a game that, to a surprising extent, manages to meet the needs of immersive questers *and* trial/PVPers. Not without the occasional gap or compromise, but still... what I hear from other MMO players suggests they're doing a much better job of that than most games do. They've just fallen down here. I hope that they realize it, sooner rather than later.
    Censored
  • CatchMeTrolling
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    We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
    Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.
    High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
    Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
    Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
    And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.

    So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.

    There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.

    They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.


    edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.

    Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.

    Let’s see:

    Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
    High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant

    Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.

    Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
    Resist Disease 75% – Passive

    Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%

    Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.

    And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.



    NO, you're ignoring it because it completely negates your position.

    What has never changed from game to game is the central role of the race.

    Orcs have NEVER been particularly magical.
    Bretons have NEVER been particularly warrior like.

    And this can be done for each and every race.

    So, answer or acknowledge that you are wrong: to what thief ability do Bosmeri have a bonus now?

    Thanks for showing your bias. Zos should rightfully ignore you guys.
This discussion has been closed.