Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

thegreatme · May 2019

Its funny because I didn't used to be able to afford Plus. Now I can.

Problem?
Most my toons are stealth bosmer, because I love bosmer and stealth. Nerfed into the ground.
Most are also Stealth Nightblades. NB stealth nerfed into the ground.

Really makes me want to hold on to my money now. If I want it just to get crafting bag or add more furnishings to my houses... I'll just save gold up and use the next Plus Trial to beat the furnishings limit for free

Now watch them uh... nerf / take away Plus Trial too

Cundu_Ertur · May 2019

After reading ProbablePaul's improbable assertion that Bosmer are still somehow a stealthy race, I started to think: what if he (assuming a gender here) actually is referring to stealth as the specialization or set of skills as was the case in Oblivion and Morrowind? That led to two trains of thought. However, before we get there, some definitions. In this post I will use the word 'sneak' exclusively to refer to the act of hiding or moving in hiding. The word 'stealth' will at all times in this post refer only to the set of skills not related to magic or combat. A 'stealthy' race will be one that has most of its bonuses to skills not in the sets of combat or magic skills. A 'sneaky' race will be one that has bonuses to sneaking. Hopefully this will remove or reduce the ambiguity of the discussion.

The first thought is the easy refutation: counter-sneak is not necessarily a stealth skill. We can't know what it would be because skill specializations do not and have not existed in ESO, and there is no comparable skill that has ever existed in any TES game before. Of the classic stealth skills, only sneak and pickpocket have any racial bonus in ESO. That's it. Bosmer now have no bonus at all to either. So the assertion that Bosmer are still a stealthy race is entirely false. As has been noted, Imperials are now better at sneaking around now, and so they are arguable the second most stealthy race at this point; Bosmer are tied for last.

Which brings me to the second thought I had: we have constantly asserted that Bosmer have always been a stealthy and sneaky race, but never have we shown this in a comprehensive data-driven way. So what I did was create a stealthiness index using the racial skill bonuses and attribute bonuses/weaknesses in Oblivion. Bonuses are always in multiples of five, so for every 5 point value I used an index value of 1.

For Skyrim, this was easy, just add up the index values for all of the racial skill bonuses for each specialization: warrior, mage, thief. The result was that Bosmer was at the top, with an index of 7 (all bonuses were for stealth skills); Khajiit second with 6; Argonian 5; and Dunmer 3. Pretty much what everyone would expect.

Full table of stealth index values in Skyrim, sorted from high to low:
Bosmer 7
Khajiit 6
Argonian 5
Dunmer 3
Breton 2
Nord 2
Redguard 1
Altmer 0
Orc 0
Imperial 0

Calculating the Oblivion index was much, much harder. Since there were attributes with racial attribute bonuses AND different attributes governed different skills AND there were different bonuses based on gender, there was a lot more to do. I abandoned the idea of making a comprehensive list for both Oblivion and Morrowind, and instead focused on a comprehensive list for just Oblivion and limited Morrowind to comparing Bosmer and Khajiit. In Oblivion Bosmer females were top dog with a stealthiness index of 16, Bosmer males 12, Khajiit of both genders 11, Argonian males 8 (Argonian females were the 3rd best mages, BTW), and Dunmer females 6. Orc females, on the other hand, are at -13 -- just one off from the theoretical minimum.

Explanation for how values were derived.
Each attribute has a bonus of +/- 5 or 10, so the index is still 1 for each 5 points. Each attribute governs 3 skills, which will be of one or two different specializations: for example speed governs combat and stealth skills. So the index for each attribute is multiplied by how many stealth skills are governed by that attribute. Negative values are possible (and very common it turns out). The racial skill bonus is still 1 point for every 5 bonus points; there are 9 points in total for each race across the 3 specializations. This data will be shown as: race, gender, total index value (attribute bonus + skill bonus).

Bosmer female 16 (+10+6)
Bosmer male 12 (+6+6)
Khajiit both 11 (+6+5)
Argonian male 8 (+6+2)
Dunmer female 6 (+4+2)
Imperial male 2 (-2+4)
Dunmer male 2 (0+2)
Redguard female 1 (0+1)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Imperial female -2 (-6+4)
Argonian female -2 (-4+2)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -10 (-10+0)
Orc male -11 (-11 +0)
Orc female -13 (-13+0)

I'm not surprised by the values for Orcs. If an Orc wants to hide from you he'll just rip your eyes out.
(2nd edit: found miscalculation for Breton and Reguard males, both lost 2 points when correctly calculated)

Using the Oblivion values as a baseline, I can analyze what happens with Khajiit and Bosmer in Morrowind. Strength and intelligence each add an additional skill (one for each) while the remaining attributes' index values are unchanged. This results in Bosmer of both genders and Khajiit females losing 2 index points. (edit to correct) Bosmer racial bonuses gain 2 index points, Khajiit racial bonuses gain 3 index points. So the final effect is Bosmer females are still on top with 16 points, Khajiit males are second with 14, Bosmer males and Khajiit females are tied for third at 12.(end edit: note that while the absolute values were off by 2, their relation to each other was unchanged.)

The results are clear. Bosmer and Khajiit have always been consistently the two most stealthy races since racial bonuses existed. However, it is equally clear that Bosmer have always held a slight edge between the two races. The current situation, where Khajiit are the ONLY race to have a meaningful advantage in stealthiness (keep in mind this is across all stealth skills not just sneak, though that certainly is a part) is both unique and wrong.

Cundu_Ertur · May 2019

Tasear wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/477022/what-race-did-you-choose-for-necromancer#latest

🤔 Reasons to buff bosmer

I have a Bosmer Necromancer. The stamina and regen is always nice for a stam build, but I did it because the master of positive necromancy lives in Valenwood. You can meet her, even save her during a quest. I'm RP'ing as a student of one of her acolytes.

This doesn't mean I don't think Bosmer got shafted hard in the wrathstone debacle -- of course I do.

The necromancer is Bosmer number 4. And the number of points that I have wasted in the puddle of fluidic dog crap called Hunter's Eye is still exactly 0.

edit to add: When I answered the poll yesterday, Bosmer were in the middle of the pack, but now they are tied for 2nd last. which doesn't surprise me. despite having good sustain and a decent stamina bonus, the fact is Bosmer are pretty much suffering from having a missing passive.

Kalle_Demos · May 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

After reading ProbablePaul's improbable assertion that Bosmer are still somehow a stealthy race, I started to think: what if he (assuming a gender here) actually is referring to stealth as the specialization or set of skills as was the case in Oblivion and Morrowind? That led to two trains of thought. However, before we get there, some definitions. In this post I will use the word 'sneak' exclusively to refer to the act of hiding or moving in hiding. The word 'stealth' will at all times in this post refer only to the set of skills not related to magic or combat. A 'stealthy' race will be one that has most of its bonuses to skills not in the sets of combat or magic skills. A 'sneaky' race will be one that has bonuses to sneaking. Hopefully this will remove or reduce the ambiguity of the discussion.

The first thought is the easy refutation: counter-sneak is not necessarily a stealth skill. We can't know what it would be because skill specializations do not and have not existed in ESO, and there is no comparable skill that has ever existed in any TES game before. Of the classic stealth skills, only sneak and pickpocket have any racial bonus in ESO. That's it. Bosmer now have no bonus at all to either. So the assertion that Bosmer are still a stealthy race is entirely false. As has been noted, Imperials are now better at sneaking around now, and so they are arguable the second most stealthy race at this point; Bosmer are tied for last.

Which brings me to the second thought I had: we have constantly asserted that Bosmer have always been a stealthy and sneaky race, but never have we shown this in a comprehensive data-driven way. So what I did was create a stealthiness index using the racial skill bonuses and attribute bonuses/weaknesses in Oblivion. Bonuses are always in multiples of five, so for every 5 point value I used an index value of 1.

For Skyrim, this was easy, just add up the index values for all of the racial skill bonuses for each specialization: warrior, mage, theif. The result was that Bosmer was at the top, with an index of 7 (all bonuses were for stealth skills); Khajiit second with 6; Argonian 5; and Dunmer 3. Pretty much what everyone would expect.
Full table of stealth index values in Skyrim, sorted from high to low:
Bosmer 7
Khajiit 6
Argonian 5
Dunmer 3
Breton 2
Nord 2
Redguard 1
Altmer 0
Orc 0
Imperial 0

Calculating the Oblivion index was much, much harder. Since there were attributes with racial attribute bonuses AND different attributes governed different skills AND there were different bonuses based on gender, there was a lot more to do. I abandoned the idea of making a comprehensive list for both Oblivion and Morrowind, and instead focused on a comprehensive list for just Oblivion and limited Morrowind to comparing Bosmer and Khajiit. In Oblivion Bosmer females were top dog with a stealthiness index of 16, Bosmer males 12, Khajiit of both genders 11, Argonian males 8 (Argonian females were the 3rd best mages, BTW), and Dunmer females 6. Orc females, on the other hand, are at -13 -- just one off from the theoretical minimum.
Explanation for how values were derived.
Each attribute has a bonus of +/- 5 or 10, so the index is still 1 for each 5 points. Each attribute governs 3 skills, which will be of one or two different specializations: for example speed governs combat and stealth skills. So the index for each attribute is multiplied by how many stealth skills are governed by that attribute. Negative values are possible (and very common it turns out). The racial skill bonus is still 1 point for every 5 bonus points; there are 9 points in total for each race across the 3 specializations. This data will be shown as: race, gender, total index value (attribute bonus + skill bonus).

Bosmer female 16 (+10+6)
Bosmer male 12 (+6+6)
Khajiit both 11 (+6+5)
Argonian male 8 (+6+2)
Dunmer female 6 (+4+2)
Imperial male 2 (-2+4)
Dunmer male 2 (0+2)
Redguard female 1 (0+1)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard male -1 (-2+1)
Imperial female -2 (-6+4)
Argonian female -2 (-4+2)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc male -11 (-11 +0)
Orc female -13 (-13+0)

I'm not surprised by the values for Orcs. If an Orc wants to hide from you he'll just rip your eyes out.

Using the Oblivion values as a baseline, I can analyze what happens with Khajiit and Bosmer in Morrowind. Strength and intelligence each add an additional skill (one for each) while the remaining attributes' index values are unchanged. This results in Bosmer of both genders and Khajiit females losing 2 index points. Khajiit racial bonuses gain 1 index point. So the final effect is Bosmer females are still on top with 14 points, Khajiit males are second with 12, Bosmer males and Khajiit females are tied for third at 10.

The results are clear. Bosmer and Khajiit have always been consistently the two most stealthy races since racial bonuses existed. However, it is equally clear that Bosmer have always held a slight edge between the two races. The current situation, where Khajiit are the ONLY race to have a meaningful advantage in stealthiness (keep in mind this is across all stealth skills not just sneak, though that certainly is a part) is both unique and wrong.

An excellent breakdown and presentation of data that highlights the absurdity of this situation. Anyone that claims that the Bosmer were never the stealthy race or that they are still stealthy are objectively wrong on multiple fronts. With the implementation of these racials and the negative affect they have had on Bosmer players, ZOS continues to display the fact that they are not serious when it comes Lore and communication despite claiming so.

Their goals for the racials included Lore accuracy, uniqueness, equalization and universal applicability. In regards to Bosmer and I would argue a few other races this endeavor was an absolute failure. Bosmer lost their place as race skilled in stealth gameplay and this was replaced with nothing. Stealth detect has very limited applications and usefulness in PVP and in completely null in PVE while in comparison other races received and maintained bonuses that are applicable to every style of play. This leaves the Bosmer at a disadvantage and the Lore aspect speaks for itself.

Give Bosmer their stealth back.

Sylvermynx · May 2019

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

After reading ProbablePaul's improbable assertion that Bosmer are still somehow a stealthy race, I started to think: what if he (assuming a gender here) actually is referring to stealth as the specialization or set of skills as was the case in Oblivion and Morrowind? That led to two trains of thought. However, before we get there, some definitions. In this post I will use the word 'sneak' exclusively to refer to the act of hiding or moving in hiding. The word 'stealth' will at all times in this post refer only to the set of skills not related to magic or combat. A 'stealthy' race will be one that has most of its bonuses to skills not in the sets of combat or magic skills. A 'sneaky' race will be one that has bonuses to sneaking. Hopefully this will remove or reduce the ambiguity of the discussion.

The first thought is the easy refutation: counter-sneak is not necessarily a stealth skill. We can't know what it would be because skill specializations do not and have not existed in ESO, and there is no comparable skill that has ever existed in any TES game before. Of the classic stealth skills, only sneak and pickpocket have any racial bonus in ESO. That's it. Bosmer now have no bonus at all to either. So the assertion that Bosmer are still a stealthy race is entirely false. As has been noted, Imperials are now better at sneaking around now, and so they are arguable the second most stealthy race at this point; Bosmer are tied for last.

Which brings me to the second thought I had: we have constantly asserted that Bosmer have always been a stealthy and sneaky race, but never have we shown this in a comprehensive data-driven way. So what I did was create a stealthiness index using the racial skill bonuses and attribute bonuses/weaknesses in Oblivion. Bonuses are always in multiples of five, so for every 5 point value I used an index value of 1.

For Skyrim, this was easy, just add up the index values for all of the racial skill bonuses for each specialization: warrior, mage, theif. The result was that Bosmer was at the top, with an index of 7 (all bonuses were for stealth skills); Khajiit second with 6; Argonian 5; and Dunmer 3. Pretty much what everyone would expect.
Full table of stealth index values in Skyrim, sorted from high to low:
Bosmer 7
Khajiit 6
Argonian 5
Dunmer 3
Breton 2
Nord 2
Redguard 1
Altmer 0
Orc 0
Imperial 0

Calculating the Oblivion index was much, much harder. Since there were attributes with racial attribute bonuses AND different attributes governed different skills AND there were different bonuses based on gender, there was a lot more to do. I abandoned the idea of making a comprehensive list for both Oblivion and Morrowind, and instead focused on a comprehensive list for just Oblivion and limited Morrowind to comparing Bosmer and Khajiit. In Oblivion Bosmer females were top dog with a stealthiness index of 16, Bosmer males 12, Khajiit of both genders 11, Argonian males 8 (Argonian females were the 3rd best mages, BTW), and Dunmer females 6. Orc females, on the other hand, are at -13 -- just one off from the theoretical minimum.
Explanation for how values were derived.
Each attribute has a bonus of +/- 5 or 10, so the index is still 1 for each 5 points. Each attribute governs 3 skills, which will be of one or two different specializations: for example speed governs combat and stealth skills. So the index for each attribute is multiplied by how many stealth skills are governed by that attribute. Negative values are possible (and very common it turns out). The racial skill bonus is still 1 point for every 5 bonus points; there are 9 points in total for each race across the 3 specializations. This data will be shown as: race, gender, total index value (attribute bonus + skill bonus).

Bosmer female 16 (+10+6)
Bosmer male 12 (+6+6)
Khajiit both 11 (+6+5)
Argonian male 8 (+6+2)
Dunmer female 6 (+4+2)
Imperial male 2 (-2+4)
Dunmer male 2 (0+2)
Redguard female 1 (0+1)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard male -1 (-2+1)
Imperial female -2 (-6+4)
Argonian female -2 (-4+2)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc male -11 (-11 +0)
Orc female -13 (-13+0)

I'm not surprised by the values for Orcs. If an Orc wants to hide from you he'll just rip your eyes out.

Using the Oblivion values as a baseline, I can analyze what happens with Khajiit and Bosmer in Morrowind. Strength and intelligence each add an additional skill (one for each) while the remaining attributes' index values are unchanged. This results in Bosmer of both genders and Khajiit females losing 2 index points. Khajiit racial bonuses gain 1 index point. So the final effect is Bosmer females are still on top with 14 points, Khajiit males are second with 12, Bosmer males and Khajiit females are tied for third at 10.

The results are clear. Bosmer and Khajiit have always been consistently the two most stealthy races since racial bonuses existed. However, it is equally clear that Bosmer have always held a slight edge between the two races. The current situation, where Khajiit are the ONLY race to have a meaningful advantage in stealthiness (keep in mind this is across all stealth skills not just sneak, though that certainly is a part) is both unique and wrong.

An excellent breakdown and presentation of data that highlights the absurdity of this situation. Anyone that claims that the Bosmer were never the stealthy race or that they are still stealthy are objectively wrong on multiple fronts. With the implementation of these racials and the negative affect they have had on Bosmer players, ZOS continues to display the fact that they are not serious when it comes Lore and communication despite claiming so.

Their goals for the racials included Lore accuracy, uniqueness, equalization and universal applicability. In regards to Bosmer and I would argue a few other races this endeavor was an absolute failure. Bosmer lost their place as race skilled in stealth gameplay and this was replaced with nothing. Stealth detect has very limited applications and usefulness in PVP and in completely null in PVE while in comparison other races received and maintained bonuses that are applicable to every style of play. This leaves the Bosmer at a disadvantage and the Lore aspect speaks for itself.

Give Bosmer their stealth back.

Agree. Even though as many know I never played my Bosmeri as stealth.

The point is, ZOS screwed the pooch and bought the farm on Bosmer stealth.

Cundu_Ertur · May 2019

Full disclosure: I got part of the Morrowind analysis wrong. It doesn't affect the ranking at all, but did affect the absolute index value. Corrected values are in place now. I had left out 2 additional skill point bonuses for Bosmer and Khajiit, so their values all went up by 2. This is because in Morrowind Khajiit and Bosmer both have 8 of 9 skill bonuses in stealth skills, while in Oblivion they have 5 and 6 respectively. I had remembered that Khajiit had a net gain of one additional skill, but forgot the actual numbers.

There's a reason I didn't calculate all of the Morrowind values.

Koronach · May 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Problem is none of this matters when you have PvP devs crunching raw numbers and coming up with formlae to counter whine inducing 1v1 strategy.

Does anyone really believe they looked at the stuff you guys are talking about before they came up with these new passives? They themselves stated that they were modeling the new racials on armor sets already in game. Unfortunately, they seem to have waited until the last minute and scraped the bottom of the barrel and gave Bosmer a passive based on one of the least desirable sets available.

Debating lore is good, but it's barking up the wrong tree. If even their own loremaster rubber stamped these crazy changes, then it's not likely they will be swayed by reason of what lore is right or wrong.

ZoS left themselves open to this line of attack by repeatedly claiming a lore basis for these changes and patting themselves on the back for the most lore-friendly changes in the history of ever, so we have every right to call them on their … uhmmmm, I'm supposed to keep this civil so how can I say "BS" without actually saying "BS?" … um, let's go with inaccuracies. So we can call them on their inaccuracies.

However, by all means that doesn't mean we should ignore the practical aspects and you are correct, too, to note that what we have instead is uselessness scraped from the bottom of the barrel labelled "crap."

The whole stealth/counter-stealth gameplay thing could be interesting IF WE WEREN'T IN THE SAME ALLIANCE. Putting the stealth and counter-stealth races in the same alliance was just … ugh damn to the depths whatever mutton-head came up with civility! … I have no words available to me to describe the foolishness of it.

"Civility" is going to give me an aneurysm.

I think it's safe to say ZoS just lies and doesn't care about lore at all when this exists in Elsweyr.

I honestly can't believe they are happy with this level of incompetence.

anadandy · May 2019

Today on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bv56fz/the_smallest_race_in_the_game_doesnt_get_a/

Bosmer. The smallest race in the game. Known for their stealthiness. For some reason gets a stealth detection bonus and not the Khajit bonus of a smaller stealth radius.

Stealth detection is also useless in PVE. Why not just give Khajit and Bosmer the same bonus!

It kills me that people are still using that "Meh, stealth radius is useless too" argument in response to the uselessness of Stealth Detection. *headdesk*

Edit: I had to comment. Prepping for downvotes.

Cundu_Ertur · May 2019

anadandy wrote: »

Today on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bv56fz/the_smallest_race_in_the_game_doesnt_get_a/

Bosmer. The smallest race in the game. Known for their stealthiness. For some reason gets a stealth detection bonus and not the Khajit bonus of a smaller stealth radius.

Stealth detection is also useless in PVE. Why not just give Khajit and Bosmer the same bonus!

It kills me that people are still using that "Meh, stealth radius is useless too" argument in response to the uselessness of Stealth Detection. *headdesk*

Edit: I had to comment. Prepping for downvotes.

I would give that comment a gazillion upvotes. We should have the Khajiit bonus, and stealth detection is completely useless. I wasn't sure what you are upset with until I saw the comment you were actually referring to. So, yeah, downvote that other guy.

Cundu_Ertur · May 2019

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

anadandy · May 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

I would give that comment a gazillion upvotes. We should have the Khajiit bonus, and stealth detection is completely useless. I wasn't sure what you are upset with until I saw the comment you were actually referring to. So, yeah, downvote that other guy.

Yeah, I wasn't really clear. I thought the original reddit post was great. I just get frustrated when I see those comments that totally miss the point.

barney2525 · May 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Just occured to me yesterday... Better late than never... but they really, really have no idea how to balance anything. Look at that.

This is essentially the same passive racial trait, for different races. Only difference is the resist it is focused on, and the ressource it improves.

Argonians : Gain Immunity to the diseased status effect / Increases Max Health by 1000 and Disease Resistance by 2310

Bosmers : Gain immunity to the poisoned effect / Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and Poison Resistance by 2310

(note that, lore-wise, if you keep only one resist per race, argonians and bosmers should be switched)

Dunmers : Gain immunity to the burning status effect / Increases Max Health by 600 and Flame Resistance by 2310

Nords : Gain immunity to the Chilled status effect / Increases your Max Health by 1000 and Cold Resistance by 2310

So, how balanced is that ? This is the same passive, with the same amount of one resist being buffed, the same immunity effect to one type of effect being buffed, but the amount of ressource being buffed varies greatly from race to race. One gets +2000 (I suppose it's to make up for the terrible racial passive that has no use in PvE whatsoever ), one gets 600, others get 1000. And then, you have the Imperials and Redguards, which get +2000 to some ressource, but without any immunity or resist.

That's not balanced at all. And don't even start me on how the lore was *** when Bosmers became guards and Altmers began regenerating stamina with something called SPELL recharge.

Maybe they took into account the percentage of times characters will be faced with those specific situations?

And how many times will PvE Bosmer be faced with stealthed enemies?

Oooo ooo ooo math! Sweet, lemme pull up my scientific Windows calculator, grab a slide rule, and get some graph paper! Ok, let's see.... carry the one... take the integral... apply a fourier transform... let's just throw a pi in there because everything is better with pi... hit the equals button and:
ZERO.

So there's your answer.

You for got to multiply in the 4.5209 throrium schemus principal... which always, except on Tuesdays with a full moon, carries a negative 38.062945 raction factor ... and then divide one third of the result by Pi X squared.

Actual final result - 0.00

Also, I can't believe this thread is Still going on

Darkenarlol · May 2019

so we are on page 72 now...

i guess at page 172 we'll be in same state as we are now.

all hail the allmighty ZO$ lore of elder$ $croll$

MartiniDaniels · May 2019

barney2525 wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Just occured to me yesterday... Better late than never... but they really, really have no idea how to balance anything. Look at that.

This is essentially the same passive racial trait, for different races. Only difference is the resist it is focused on, and the ressource it improves.

Argonians : Gain Immunity to the diseased status effect / Increases Max Health by 1000 and Disease Resistance by 2310

Bosmers : Gain immunity to the poisoned effect / Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and Poison Resistance by 2310

(note that, lore-wise, if you keep only one resist per race, argonians and bosmers should be switched)

Dunmers : Gain immunity to the burning status effect / Increases Max Health by 600 and Flame Resistance by 2310

Nords : Gain immunity to the Chilled status effect / Increases your Max Health by 1000 and Cold Resistance by 2310

So, how balanced is that ? This is the same passive, with the same amount of one resist being buffed, the same immunity effect to one type of effect being buffed, but the amount of ressource being buffed varies greatly from race to race. One gets +2000 (I suppose it's to make up for the terrible racial passive that has no use in PvE whatsoever ), one gets 600, others get 1000. And then, you have the Imperials and Redguards, which get +2000 to some ressource, but without any immunity or resist.

That's not balanced at all. And don't even start me on how the lore was *** when Bosmers became guards and Altmers began regenerating stamina with something called SPELL recharge.

Maybe they took into account the percentage of times characters will be faced with those specific situations?

And how many times will PvE Bosmer be faced with stealthed enemies?

Oooo ooo ooo math! Sweet, lemme pull up my scientific Windows calculator, grab a slide rule, and get some graph paper! Ok, let's see.... carry the one... take the integral... apply a fourier transform... let's just throw a pi in there because everything is better with pi... hit the equals button and:
ZERO.

So there's your answer.

You for got to multiply in the 4.5209 throrium schemus principal... which always, except on Tuesdays with a full moon, carries a negative 38.062945 raction factor ... and then divide one third of the result by Pi X squared.

Actual final result - 0.00

Also, I can't believe this thread is Still going on

Bro, I see you write same thing in many threads where players give feedback to ZOS and propose something. "Ugh, this is pointless, ZOS will do nothing, your thread is in vain, nobody needs this" etc... you know, we all have such periods of life when you think that nothing can be changed.. but final result =0.00 is guaranteed when you are not trying and quite the opposite any efforts bring you something, maybe not exact final result you wanted, but new experience etc. For example I learned how critically minimize damage from giants with positioning, in thread about (optional) increased overland difficulty.. and what you learned? nothing
In this thread we learned a ton of new lore about bosmers, tested Hunter's eye passive and sneak detect mechanics, nuances of roll-dodge and received relatively unanimous public opinion that bosmers should have their stealth back. Many class representatives agree with this thread and mention it to ZOS. One forum member even talked personally with one of ZOS chiefs about this issue.
And what you learned? "Ugh, i can't believe"

MLGProPlayer · May 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

ZOS threw lore out the window as soon as Lawrence left.

Ogou · May 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

ZOS threw lore out the window as soon as Lawrence left.

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Jaraal · May 2019

Ogou wrote: »

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Could be why he left.

I'd be mad too, if the beautiful tale your storytellers had crafted over two decades of time was all unceremoniously flushed and replaced with something totally contrary to universal knowledge and conjured out of a trash decon armor set.

Would you want to be the guy who had to tell his people all those quest dialogues they worked overtime to perfect would from here on out read as nonsense for years to come? Me either.

I'd quit, too!

Ogou · June 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Could be why he left.

I'd be mad too, if the beautiful tale your storytellers had crafted over two decades of time was all unceremoniously flushed and replaced with something totally contrary to universal knowledge and conjured out of a trash decon armor set.

Would you want to be the guy who had to tell his people all those quest dialogues they worked overtime to perfect would from here on out read as nonsense for years to come? Me either.

I'd quit, too!

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

ZOS threw lore out the window as soon as Lawrence left.

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

[snip]

The news that Lawrence was leaving came weeks into the PTS. ZOS knew about the changes way before that. If that was the reason he left he would have left earlier.

Besides, we know the reason he left was a family member moving away. You guys trying to spin this for your own agenda is absolutely disgusting.

[edited to remove quote]

Koronach · June 2019

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Could be why he left.

I'd be mad too, if the beautiful tale your storytellers had crafted over two decades of time was all unceremoniously flushed and replaced with something totally contrary to universal knowledge and conjured out of a trash decon armor set.

Would you want to be the guy who had to tell his people all those quest dialogues they worked overtime to perfect would from here on out read as nonsense for years to come? Me either.

I'd quit, too!

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

ZOS threw lore out the window as soon as Lawrence left.

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

[snip]

The news that Lawrence was leaving came weeks into the PTS. ZOS knew about the changes way before that. If that was the reason he left he would have left earlier.

Besides, we know the reason he left was a family member moving away. You guys trying to spin this for your own agenda is absolutely disgusting.

Or they didn't know and you're blowing it out of proportion.

[edited to remove quote]

Ogou · June 2019

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Could be why he left.

I'd be mad too, if the beautiful tale your storytellers had crafted over two decades of time was all unceremoniously flushed and replaced with something totally contrary to universal knowledge and conjured out of a trash decon armor set.

Would you want to be the guy who had to tell his people all those quest dialogues they worked overtime to perfect would from here on out read as nonsense for years to come? Me either.

I'd quit, too!

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

ZOS threw lore out the window as soon as Lawrence left.

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

[snip]

The news that Lawrence was leaving came weeks into the PTS. ZOS knew about the changes way before that. If that was the reason he left he would have left earlier.

Besides, we know the reason he left was a family member moving away. You guys trying to spin this for your own agenda is absolutely disgusting.

Or they didn't know and you're blowing it out of proportion.

I know for a fact that @MLGProPlayer knew.

[edited to remove quote]

MLGProPlayer · June 2019

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Could be why he left.

I'd be mad too, if the beautiful tale your storytellers had crafted over two decades of time was all unceremoniously flushed and replaced with something totally contrary to universal knowledge and conjured out of a trash decon armor set.

Would you want to be the guy who had to tell his people all those quest dialogues they worked overtime to perfect would from here on out read as nonsense for years to come? Me either.

I'd quit, too!

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

ZOS threw lore out the window as soon as Lawrence left.

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

[snip]

The news that Lawrence was leaving came weeks into the PTS. ZOS knew about the changes way before that. If that was the reason he left he would have left earlier.

Besides, we know the reason he left was a family member moving away. You guys trying to spin this for your own agenda is absolutely disgusting.

The only reason we found out about Lawrence leaving early is because someone who was in the same guild as someone who knew Lawrence leaked the information on the forums. ZOS then came out with a formal statement.

He very likely could have let them know much earlier than that.

[edited to remove quote]

Ogou · June 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Could be why he left.

I'd be mad too, if the beautiful tale your storytellers had crafted over two decades of time was all unceremoniously flushed and replaced with something totally contrary to universal knowledge and conjured out of a trash decon armor set.

Would you want to be the guy who had to tell his people all those quest dialogues they worked overtime to perfect would from here on out read as nonsense for years to come? Me either.

I'd quit, too!

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

ZOS threw lore out the window as soon as Lawrence left.

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

[snip]

The news that Lawrence was leaving came weeks into the PTS. ZOS knew about the changes way before that. If that was the reason he left he would have left earlier.

Besides, we know the reason he left was a family member moving away. You guys trying to spin this for your own agenda is absolutely disgusting.

The only reason we found out about Lawrence leaving early is because someone who was in the same guild as someone who knew Lawrence leaked the information on the forums. ZOS then came out with a formal statement.

He very likely could have let them know much earlier than that.

The "leak" came out more than a week into the PTS cycle. ZOS had been working on these changes for months.
What about the fact that both the leak and the official announcement both explicitly stated that Lawrence left for family reasons?
Give it up, your claim is baseless.

[edited to remove quote]

Cundu_Ertur · June 2019

It's not outside the realm of possibility that the lore team passed the change without realizing that the new Bosmer passive was a detect bonus instead of a hide bonus, it took several days for that to be clear when the changes were first introduced if I recall correctly. The wording was awfully ambiguous in my opinion. "Stealth detection radius" being used for two different concepts is not exactly crystal clear communication.

Jaraal · June 2019

Ogou wrote: »

The "leak" came out more than a week into the PTS cycle. ZOS had been working on these changes for months.
What about the fact that both the leak and the official announcement both explicitly stated that Lawrence left for family reasons?
Give it up, your claim is baseless.

In the current climate of non-disclosure agreements and employment termination contracts, who can really say for certain what happened behind the scenes. Official statements can be negotiated, or be required to be written a certain way. All we know for certain is that the letter posted on ZOS's website was approved by management, or it wouldn't be there. Interestingly, the main theme of Mr Schick's departure letter is that lore is decided by the player, and how it should fit into his or her own playstyle is up to them, and them alone.

However, we are not allowed to play our characters as we created them, to be the stealthy Bosmeri we are used to from the previous Elder Scrolls games. Somebody decided that after almost five years of playing as we wanted to, that none of that mattered, and instead it's become "Here's how you'll be playing your beloved characters from now on, so get used to it," even though the new changes have nothing to do with being stealthy, and aren't even of any use to most players.

thegreatme · June 2019

If they really wanted a "lore friendly" stealth related change, they should've done literally anything else.

What about something like a percentage chance to not be "detected" stealing something even when "detected"? Bosmer are supposed to be really good at theft. They even have widely accepted traditions around being a better thief than others (The Rite of Theft), so it makes sense that if they're taking away sneak detection and wanting to make "unique lore-friendly changes", this is a whole lot better than a skill literally no one puts points into because it doesn't even have a legitimate, used purpose.

Tigerseye · June 2019

So, everything either is, or was, bugged...

Main questline now turns out to be bugged for me.

Even if it wasn't, how is taking 2 or 3 hours to solo kill a dragon, which is no real threat at all until it tries to electrocute you (and you don't receive the warning to stand in the middle), fun?

Sick to death of killing the other dragons, for very, very little, too.

...and I can't even go back to stealing properly due to this.

Did they hire the "suck all the fun out of it" guy from WoW, for this chapter, or something?

Tigerseye · June 2019

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Could be why he left.

I'd be mad too, if the beautiful tale your storytellers had crafted over two decades of time was all unceremoniously flushed and replaced with something totally contrary to universal knowledge and conjured out of a trash decon armor set.

Would you want to be the guy who had to tell his people all those quest dialogues they worked overtime to perfect would from here on out read as nonsense for years to come? Me either.

I'd quit, too!

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

ZOS threw lore out the window as soon as Lawrence left.

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

[snip]

The news that Lawrence was leaving came weeks into the PTS. ZOS knew about the changes way before that. If that was the reason he left he would have left earlier.

Besides, we know the reason he left was a family member moving away. You guys trying to spin this for your own agenda is absolutely disgusting.

It's pretty obvious he was just guessing about the possible reason and (at least) semi-joking.

Neither of those things are "disgusting" things to do.

You are severely overreacting, here.

[edited to remove quote]

Tigerseye · June 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Let's be careful to keep the tone of the discussion civil. Granted, it was a callous blow to lore and immersion.... but nothing constructive can come from insults.

It doesn't matter what tone you keep because ZOS isn't reading this thread.

They will be.

Ogou · June 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

The "leak" came out more than a week into the PTS cycle. ZOS had been working on these changes for months.
What about the fact that both the leak and the official announcement both explicitly stated that Lawrence left for family reasons?
Give it up, your claim is baseless.

In the current climate of non-disclosure agreements and employment termination contracts, who can really say for certain what happened behind the scenes. Official statements can be negotiated, or be required to be written a certain way. All we know for certain is that the letter posted on ZOS's website was approved by management, or it wouldn't be there. Interestingly, the main theme of Mr Schick's departure letter is that lore is decided by the player, and how it should fit into his or her own playstyle is up to them, and them alone.

However, we are not allowed to play our characters as we created them, to be the stealthy Bosmeri we are used to from the previous Elder Scrolls games. Somebody decided that after almost five years of playing as we wanted to, that none of that mattered, and instead it's become "Here's how you'll be playing your beloved characters from now on, so get used to it," even though the new changes have nothing to do with being stealthy, and aren't even of any use to most players.

"We can't know for sure so let's just assume the most convenient possibility for us. Even if there's literally nothing to support it."
Got it.

Ogou · June 2019

Tigerseye wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Could be why he left.

I'd be mad too, if the beautiful tale your storytellers had crafted over two decades of time was all unceremoniously flushed and replaced with something totally contrary to universal knowledge and conjured out of a trash decon armor set.

Would you want to be the guy who had to tell his people all those quest dialogues they worked overtime to perfect would from here on out read as nonsense for years to come? Me either.

I'd quit, too!

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

ZOS threw lore out the window as soon as Lawrence left.

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

[snip]

The news that Lawrence was leaving came weeks into the PTS. ZOS knew about the changes way before that. If that was the reason he left he would have left earlier.

Besides, we know the reason he left was a family member moving away. You guys trying to spin this for your own agenda is absolutely disgusting.

It's pretty obvious he was just guessing about the possible reason and (at least) semi-joking.

Neither of those things are "disgusting" things to do.

You are severely overreacting, here.

Oh please. And his only possible guess was this ridiculous idea?
Implying that the previous loremaster left because of the racial passive changes is disgusting. That claim is not based on any facts and only serves to give the racial passive complaints more validity.
There are many other, much more valid, ways to keep this thread going. Spinning up rumors about former ZOS employees is not the way to go.

[edited to remove quote]