Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Cundu_Ertur

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

anadandy

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

I would give that comment a gazillion upvotes. We should have the Khajiit bonus, and stealth detection is completely useless. I wasn't sure what you are upset with until I saw the comment you were actually referring to. So, yeah, downvote that other guy.

Yeah, I wasn't really clear. I thought the original reddit post was great. I just get frustrated when I see those comments that totally miss the point.

barney2525

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Just occured to me yesterday... Better late than never... but they really, really have no idea how to balance anything. Look at that.

This is essentially the same passive racial trait, for different races. Only difference is the resist it is focused on, and the ressource it improves.

Argonians : Gain Immunity to the diseased status effect / Increases Max Health by 1000 and Disease Resistance by 2310

Bosmers : Gain immunity to the poisoned effect / Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and Poison Resistance by 2310

(note that, lore-wise, if you keep only one resist per race, argonians and bosmers should be switched)

Dunmers : Gain immunity to the burning status effect / Increases Max Health by 600 and Flame Resistance by 2310

Nords : Gain immunity to the Chilled status effect / Increases your Max Health by 1000 and Cold Resistance by 2310

So, how balanced is that ? This is the same passive, with the same amount of one resist being buffed, the same immunity effect to one type of effect being buffed, but the amount of ressource being buffed varies greatly from race to race. One gets +2000 (I suppose it's to make up for the terrible racial passive that has no use in PvE whatsoever ), one gets 600, others get 1000. And then, you have the Imperials and Redguards, which get +2000 to some ressource, but without any immunity or resist.

That's not balanced at all. And don't even start me on how the lore was *** when Bosmers became guards and Altmers began regenerating stamina with something called SPELL recharge.

Maybe they took into account the percentage of times characters will be faced with those specific situations?

And how many times will PvE Bosmer be faced with stealthed enemies?

Oooo ooo ooo math! Sweet, lemme pull up my scientific Windows calculator, grab a slide rule, and get some graph paper! Ok, let's see.... carry the one... take the integral... apply a fourier transform... let's just throw a pi in there because everything is better with pi... hit the equals button and:
ZERO.

So there's your answer.

You for got to multiply in the 4.5209 throrium schemus principal... which always, except on Tuesdays with a full moon, carries a negative 38.062945 raction factor ... and then divide one third of the result by Pi X squared.

Actual final result - 0.00

Also, I can't believe this thread is Still going on

Darkenarlol

so we are on page 72 now...

i guess at page 172 we'll be in same state as we are now.

all hail the allmighty ZO$ lore of elder$ $croll$

MartiniDaniels

barney2525 wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Just occured to me yesterday... Better late than never... but they really, really have no idea how to balance anything. Look at that.

This is essentially the same passive racial trait, for different races. Only difference is the resist it is focused on, and the ressource it improves.

Argonians : Gain Immunity to the diseased status effect / Increases Max Health by 1000 and Disease Resistance by 2310

Bosmers : Gain immunity to the poisoned effect / Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and Poison Resistance by 2310

(note that, lore-wise, if you keep only one resist per race, argonians and bosmers should be switched)

Dunmers : Gain immunity to the burning status effect / Increases Max Health by 600 and Flame Resistance by 2310

Nords : Gain immunity to the Chilled status effect / Increases your Max Health by 1000 and Cold Resistance by 2310

So, how balanced is that ? This is the same passive, with the same amount of one resist being buffed, the same immunity effect to one type of effect being buffed, but the amount of ressource being buffed varies greatly from race to race. One gets +2000 (I suppose it's to make up for the terrible racial passive that has no use in PvE whatsoever ), one gets 600, others get 1000. And then, you have the Imperials and Redguards, which get +2000 to some ressource, but without any immunity or resist.

That's not balanced at all. And don't even start me on how the lore was *** when Bosmers became guards and Altmers began regenerating stamina with something called SPELL recharge.

Maybe they took into account the percentage of times characters will be faced with those specific situations?

And how many times will PvE Bosmer be faced with stealthed enemies?

Oooo ooo ooo math! Sweet, lemme pull up my scientific Windows calculator, grab a slide rule, and get some graph paper! Ok, let's see.... carry the one... take the integral... apply a fourier transform... let's just throw a pi in there because everything is better with pi... hit the equals button and:
ZERO.

So there's your answer.

You for got to multiply in the 4.5209 throrium schemus principal... which always, except on Tuesdays with a full moon, carries a negative 38.062945 raction factor ... and then divide one third of the result by Pi X squared.

Actual final result - 0.00

Also, I can't believe this thread is Still going on

Bro, I see you write same thing in many threads where players give feedback to ZOS and propose something. "Ugh, this is pointless, ZOS will do nothing, your thread is in vain, nobody needs this" etc... you know, we all have such periods of life when you think that nothing can be changed.. but final result =0.00 is guaranteed when you are not trying and quite the opposite any efforts bring you something, maybe not exact final result you wanted, but new experience etc. For example I learned how critically minimize damage from giants with positioning, in thread about (optional) increased overland difficulty.. and what you learned? nothing
In this thread we learned a ton of new lore about bosmers, tested Hunter's eye passive and sneak detect mechanics, nuances of roll-dodge and received relatively unanimous public opinion that bosmers should have their stealth back. Many class representatives agree with this thread and mention it to ZOS. One forum member even talked personally with one of ZOS chiefs about this issue.
And what you learned? "Ugh, i can't believe"

MLGProPlayer

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

ZOS threw lore out the window as soon as Lawrence left.

Ogou

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

ZOS threw lore out the window as soon as Lawrence left.

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Jaraal

Ogou wrote: »

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Could be why he left.


I'd be mad too, if the beautiful tale your storytellers had crafted over two decades of time was all unceremoniously flushed and replaced with something totally contrary to universal knowledge and conjured out of a trash decon armor set.

Would you want to be the guy who had to tell his people all those quest dialogues they worked overtime to perfect would from here on out read as nonsense for years to come? Me either.

I'd quit, too!

MLGProPlayer

Ogou wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

ZOS threw lore out the window as soon as Lawrence left.

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Sure, with one foot out the door. Nobody gives a *** about their job anymore after they tender their resignation.

Ogou

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Could be why he left.


I'd be mad too, if the beautiful tale your storytellers had crafted over two decades of time was all unceremoniously flushed and replaced with something totally contrary to universal knowledge and conjured out of a trash decon armor set.

Would you want to be the guy who had to tell his people all those quest dialogues they worked overtime to perfect would from here on out read as nonsense for years to come? Me either.

I'd quit, too!

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

ZOS threw lore out the window as soon as Lawrence left.

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Sure, with one foot out the door. Nobody gives a *** about their job anymore after they tender their resignation.

The news that Lawrence was leaving came weeks into the PTS. ZOS knew about the changes way before that. If that was the reason he left he would have left earlier.

Besides, we know the reason he left was a family member moving away. You guys trying to spin this for your own agenda is absolutely disgusting.

Koronach

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Could be why he left.


I'd be mad too, if the beautiful tale your storytellers had crafted over two decades of time was all unceremoniously flushed and replaced with something totally contrary to universal knowledge and conjured out of a trash decon armor set.

Would you want to be the guy who had to tell his people all those quest dialogues they worked overtime to perfect would from here on out read as nonsense for years to come? Me either.

I'd quit, too!

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

ZOS threw lore out the window as soon as Lawrence left.

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Sure, with one foot out the door. Nobody gives a *** about their job anymore after they tender their resignation.

The news that Lawrence was leaving came weeks into the PTS. ZOS knew about the changes way before that. If that was the reason he left he would have left earlier.

Besides, we know the reason he left was a family member moving away. You guys trying to spin this for your own agenda is absolutely disgusting.

Or they didn't know and you're blowing it out of proportion.

Ogou

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Could be why he left.


I'd be mad too, if the beautiful tale your storytellers had crafted over two decades of time was all unceremoniously flushed and replaced with something totally contrary to universal knowledge and conjured out of a trash decon armor set.

Would you want to be the guy who had to tell his people all those quest dialogues they worked overtime to perfect would from here on out read as nonsense for years to come? Me either.

I'd quit, too!

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

ZOS threw lore out the window as soon as Lawrence left.

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Sure, with one foot out the door. Nobody gives a *** about their job anymore after they tender their resignation.

The news that Lawrence was leaving came weeks into the PTS. ZOS knew about the changes way before that. If that was the reason he left he would have left earlier.

Besides, we know the reason he left was a family member moving away. You guys trying to spin this for your own agenda is absolutely disgusting.

Or they didn't know and you're blowing it out of proportion.

I know for a fact that @MLGProPlayer knew.

MLGProPlayer

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Could be why he left.


I'd be mad too, if the beautiful tale your storytellers had crafted over two decades of time was all unceremoniously flushed and replaced with something totally contrary to universal knowledge and conjured out of a trash decon armor set.

Would you want to be the guy who had to tell his people all those quest dialogues they worked overtime to perfect would from here on out read as nonsense for years to come? Me either.

I'd quit, too!

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

ZOS threw lore out the window as soon as Lawrence left.

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Sure, with one foot out the door. Nobody gives a *** about their job anymore after they tender their resignation.

The news that Lawrence was leaving came weeks into the PTS. ZOS knew about the changes way before that. If that was the reason he left he would have left earlier.

Besides, we know the reason he left was a family member moving away. You guys trying to spin this for your own agenda is absolutely disgusting.

The only reason we found out about Lawrence leaving early is because someone who was in the same guild as someone who knew Lawrence leaked the information on the forums. ZOS then came out with a formal statement.

He very likely could have let them know much earlier than that.

Ogou

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Could be why he left.


I'd be mad too, if the beautiful tale your storytellers had crafted over two decades of time was all unceremoniously flushed and replaced with something totally contrary to universal knowledge and conjured out of a trash decon armor set.

Would you want to be the guy who had to tell his people all those quest dialogues they worked overtime to perfect would from here on out read as nonsense for years to come? Me either.

I'd quit, too!

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

ZOS threw lore out the window as soon as Lawrence left.

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Sure, with one foot out the door. Nobody gives a *** about their job anymore after they tender their resignation.

The news that Lawrence was leaving came weeks into the PTS. ZOS knew about the changes way before that. If that was the reason he left he would have left earlier.

Besides, we know the reason he left was a family member moving away. You guys trying to spin this for your own agenda is absolutely disgusting.

The only reason we found out about Lawrence leaving early is because someone who was in the same guild as someone who knew Lawrence leaked the information on the forums. ZOS then came out with a formal statement.

He very likely could have let them know much earlier than that.

The "leak" came out more than a week into the PTS cycle. ZOS had been working on these changes for months.
What about the fact that both the leak and the official announcement both explicitly stated that Lawrence left for family reasons?
Give it up, your claim is baseless.

Cundu_Ertur

It's not outside the realm of possibility that the lore team passed the change without realizing that the new Bosmer passive was a detect bonus instead of a hide bonus, it took several days for that to be clear when the changes were first introduced if I recall correctly. The wording was awfully ambiguous in my opinion. "Stealth detection radius" being used for two different concepts is not exactly crystal clear communication.

Jaraal

Ogou wrote: »

The "leak" came out more than a week into the PTS cycle. ZOS had been working on these changes for months.
What about the fact that both the leak and the official announcement both explicitly stated that Lawrence left for family reasons?
Give it up, your claim is baseless.

In the current climate of non-disclosure agreements and employment termination contracts, who can really say for certain what happened behind the scenes. Official statements can be negotiated, or be required to be written a certain way. All we know for certain is that the letter posted on ZOS's website was approved by management, or it wouldn't be there. Interestingly, the main theme of Mr Schick's departure letter is that lore is decided by the player, and how it should fit into his or her own playstyle is up to them, and them alone.

However, we are not allowed to play our characters as we created them, to be the stealthy Bosmeri we are used to from the previous Elder Scrolls games. Somebody decided that after almost five years of playing as we wanted to, that none of that mattered, and instead it's become "Here's how you'll be playing your beloved characters from now on, so get used to it," even though the new changes have nothing to do with being stealthy, and aren't even of any use to most players.

thegreatme

If they really wanted a "lore friendly" stealth related change, they should've done literally anything else.

What about something like a percentage chance to not be "detected" stealing something even when "detected"? Bosmer are supposed to be really good at theft. They even have widely accepted traditions around being a better thief than others (The Rite of Theft), so it makes sense that if they're taking away sneak detection and wanting to make "unique lore-friendly changes", this is a whole lot better than a skill literally no one puts points into because it doesn't even have a legitimate, used purpose.

Tigerseye

So, everything either is, or was, bugged...

Main questline now turns out to be bugged for me.

Even if it wasn't, how is taking 2 or 3 hours to solo kill a dragon, which is no real threat at all until it tries to electrocute you (and you don't receive the warning to stand in the middle), fun?

Sick to death of killing the other dragons, for very, very little, too.

...and I can't even go back to stealing properly due to this.

Did they hire the "suck all the fun out of it" guy from WoW, for this chapter, or something?

Tigerseye

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Could be why he left.


I'd be mad too, if the beautiful tale your storytellers had crafted over two decades of time was all unceremoniously flushed and replaced with something totally contrary to universal knowledge and conjured out of a trash decon armor set.

Would you want to be the guy who had to tell his people all those quest dialogues they worked overtime to perfect would from here on out read as nonsense for years to come? Me either.

I'd quit, too!

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

ZOS threw lore out the window as soon as Lawrence left.

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Sure, with one foot out the door. Nobody gives a *** about their job anymore after they tender their resignation.

The news that Lawrence was leaving came weeks into the PTS. ZOS knew about the changes way before that. If that was the reason he left he would have left earlier.

Besides, we know the reason he left was a family member moving away. You guys trying to spin this for your own agenda is absolutely disgusting.

It's pretty obvious he was just guessing about the possible reason and (at least) semi-joking.

Neither of those things are "disgusting" things to do.

You are severely overreacting, here.

Tigerseye

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Let's be careful to keep the tone of the discussion civil. Granted, it was a callous blow to lore and immersion.... but nothing constructive can come from insults.

It doesn't matter what tone you keep because ZOS isn't reading this thread.

They will be.

Ogou

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

The "leak" came out more than a week into the PTS cycle. ZOS had been working on these changes for months.
What about the fact that both the leak and the official announcement both explicitly stated that Lawrence left for family reasons?
Give it up, your claim is baseless.

In the current climate of non-disclosure agreements and employment termination contracts, who can really say for certain what happened behind the scenes. Official statements can be negotiated, or be required to be written a certain way. All we know for certain is that the letter posted on ZOS's website was approved by management, or it wouldn't be there. Interestingly, the main theme of Mr Schick's departure letter is that lore is decided by the player, and how it should fit into his or her own playstyle is up to them, and them alone.

However, we are not allowed to play our characters as we created them, to be the stealthy Bosmeri we are used to from the previous Elder Scrolls games. Somebody decided that after almost five years of playing as we wanted to, that none of that mattered, and instead it's become "Here's how you'll be playing your beloved characters from now on, so get used to it," even though the new changes have nothing to do with being stealthy, and aren't even of any use to most players.

"We can't know for sure so let's just assume the most convenient possibility for us. Even if there's literally nothing to support it."
Got it.

Ogou

Tigerseye wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Could be why he left.


I'd be mad too, if the beautiful tale your storytellers had crafted over two decades of time was all unceremoniously flushed and replaced with something totally contrary to universal knowledge and conjured out of a trash decon armor set.

Would you want to be the guy who had to tell his people all those quest dialogues they worked overtime to perfect would from here on out read as nonsense for years to come? Me either.

I'd quit, too!

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

My highly intermittent OCD kicked in, and I couldn't leave my number crunching incomplete. So here's some more numbers:

Morrowind stealth index (see my comment above in the Oblivion spoiler for how it was calculated):
Bosmer female 16 (+8+8)
Khajiit male 14 (+6+8)
Bosmer male 12 (+4+8)
Khajiit female 12 (+4+8)
Dunmer female 8 (+4+4)
Argonian male 6 (+6+0)
Imperial male 4 (-2+6)
Dunmer male 4 (0+4)
Imperial female 0 (-6+6)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard female -1 (-2+1)
Argonian female -2 (-2+0)
Redguard male -3 (-4+1)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc both -12 (-12 +0)

Each race gender averaged (Morrowind):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 13
Dunmer 6
Argonian 2
Imperial 2
Altmer -2
Redguard -2
Nord -4
Breton -7
Orc -12

Each race gender averaged (Oblivion):
Bosmer 14
Khajiit 11
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 0
Redguard -1
Altmer -2
Nord -4
Breton -8
Orc -12

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Full disclosure: Bosmer was exactly 11.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666... which rounds to 12.

ZOS threw lore out the window as soon as Lawrence left.

The change was made while he was still the loremaster.

Sure, with one foot out the door. Nobody gives a *** about their job anymore after they tender their resignation.

The news that Lawrence was leaving came weeks into the PTS. ZOS knew about the changes way before that. If that was the reason he left he would have left earlier.

Besides, we know the reason he left was a family member moving away. You guys trying to spin this for your own agenda is absolutely disgusting.

It's pretty obvious he was just guessing about the possible reason and (at least) semi-joking.

Neither of those things are "disgusting" things to do.

You are severely overreacting, here.

Oh please. And his only possible guess was this ridiculous idea?
Implying that the previous loremaster left because of the racial passive changes is disgusting. That claim is not based on any facts and only serves to give the racial passive complaints more validity.
There are many other, much more valid, ways to keep this thread going. Spinning up rumors about former ZOS employees is not the way to go.

ryzen_gamer_gal

could you please put one of those option icons on this thread so i can choose to block even seeing this thread in my list. thank you.

Koronach

ryzen_gamer_gal wrote: »

could you please put one of those option icons on this thread so i can choose to block even seeing this thread in my list. thank you.

Just don't open the thread.

Jaraal

Ogou wrote: »

Implying that the previous loremaster left because of the racial passive changes is disgusting.

And implying that you know more about the situation than anyone else is arrogant. They have had every opportunity to have a discourse with us, but they choose to let us discuss and speculate on our own, so that's all we can really do.


But thanks for helping keep this thread alive! New people are seeing it every day and voicing their opinions as well.

Ogou

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Implying that the previous loremaster left because of the racial passive changes is disgusting.

And implying that you know more about the situation than anyone else is arrogant. They have had every opportunity to have a discourse with us, but they choose to let us discuss and speculate on our own, so that's all we can really do.


But thanks for helping keep this thread alive! New people are seeing it every day and voicing their opinions as well.

I never implied anything of the sort. All I said was that your claim was baseless. Feel free to prove me wrong if you want.
Funnily enough, you did not have to speculate on this specific case. There was a totally valid official response as to why the previous loremaster left but you decided to ignore it on the basis that "we can't know for sure" because ZOS could have lied. Guess that shows how much of an actual discussion you're willing to have.

You're welcome? Though I doubt you need my help.

ryzen_gamer_gal

could you please put one of those option icons on this thread so i can choose to block even seeing this thread in my list. thank you.

BlueRaven

ryzen_gamer_gal wrote: »

could you please put one of those option icons on this thread so i can choose to block even seeing this thread in my list. thank you.

You could just not open the thread. I know you are new to the forums only being here a few months, but reading every thread is not obligatory.

BlueRaven

Bethesda's E3 is in a few days hopefully they will show off what is coming next, and we see if there will finally be any changes to the Bosmer situation.

Ratzkifal

@Jaraal @Ogou
Guys, seriously, the speculation about the loremaster doesn't belong in this thread and throwing insults at each other isn't helping us get stealth back either. It only undermines our quest for stealth as a whole and makes us seem petty. Let's not give them any reason to discount us as conspiracy theorists, no matter how tempting it may be or how many arrows point into the direction.
If you want to settle this, do it in DMs, because the rest is just derailing.
The only nuance of this speculation that is important to our thread is that the loremaster left around the same time and that it is possible he wasn't involved in the process of racial rebalance. As to why that was or what the circumstances are doesn't concern us now because there is no evidence we can reference. Besides, it's also equally possible he personally approved of them, in which case this whole tangent is completely pointless.

In case you need something to do, we had the idea of making a census in Tamriel's outlaw refuges to count the number of Bosmer outlaws compared to other races. I propose we don't count NPCs of the race belonging to the respective zone we are looking at to avoid skewing the results in one direction. After all you can expect with Redguards having 3 zones and Orcs just one, that Redguards would outnumber them greatly if we didn't take that into account.