Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.
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Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The "leak" came out more than a week into the PTS cycle. ZOS had been working on these changes for months.
What about the fact that both the leak and the official announcement both explicitly stated that Lawrence left for family reasons?
Give it up, your claim is baseless.
In the current climate of non-disclosure agreements and employment termination contracts, who can really say for certain what happened behind the scenes. Official statements can be negotiated, or be required to be written a certain way. All we know for certain is that the letter posted on ZOS's website was approved by management, or it wouldn't be there. Interestingly, the main theme of Mr Schick's departure letter is that lore is decided by the player, and how it should fit into his or her own playstyle is up to them, and them alone.
However, we are not allowed to play our characters as we created them, to be the stealthy Bosmeri we are used to from the previous Elder Scrolls games. Somebody decided that after almost five years of playing as we wanted to, that none of that mattered, and instead it's become "Here's how you'll be playing your beloved characters from now on, so get used to it," even though the new changes have nothing to do with being stealthy, and aren't even of any use to most players.
Edited by Jaraal on June 1, 2019 4:17AM10 -
thegreatme✭✭✭✭✭If they really wanted a "lore friendly" stealth related change, they should've done literally anything else.
What about something like a percentage chance to not be "detected" stealing something even when "detected"? Bosmer are supposed to be really good at theft. They even have widely accepted traditions around being a better thief than others (The Rite of Theft), so it makes sense that if they're taking away sneak detection and wanting to make "unique lore-friendly changes", this is a whole lot better than a skill literally no one puts points into because it doesn't even have a legitimate, used purpose.Thank You ZoS!:
◙ Blackfeather Court banker/merchant
◙ Gloam Indrik
◙ Re-release Gloam Wolf Mount
◙ Evergloam house
Let's See It Happen ZoS:
◙ /honorloop emote
◙ cross-legged sitting emote
◙ Hagraven Polymorph
◙ Hagraven Houseguest6 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So, everything either is, or was, bugged...
Main questline now turns out to be bugged for me.
Even if it wasn't, how is taking 2 or 3 hours to solo kill a dragon, which is no real threat at all until it tries to electrocute you (and you don't receive the warning to stand in the middle), fun?
Sick to death of killing the other dragons, for very, very little, too.
...and I can't even go back to stealing properly due to this.
Did they hire the "suck all the fun out of it" guy from WoW, for this chapter, or something?Edited by Tigerseye on June 1, 2019 8:03AM5 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
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The news that Lawrence was leaving came weeks into the PTS. ZOS knew about the changes way before that. If that was the reason he left he would have left earlier.
Besides, we know the reason he left was a family member moving away. You guys trying to spin this for your own agenda is absolutely disgusting.
It's pretty obvious he was just guessing about the possible reason and (at least) semi-joking.
Neither of those things are "disgusting" things to do.
You are severely overreacting, here.6 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »
It doesn't matter what tone you keep because ZOS isn't reading this thread.
They will be.4 -
Ogou✭✭✭✭✭
In the current climate of non-disclosure agreements and employment termination contracts, who can really say for certain what happened behind the scenes. Official statements can be negotiated, or be required to be written a certain way. All we know for certain is that the letter posted on ZOS's website was approved by management, or it wouldn't be there. Interestingly, the main theme of Mr Schick's departure letter is that lore is decided by the player, and how it should fit into his or her own playstyle is up to them, and them alone.
However, we are not allowed to play our characters as we created them, to be the stealthy Bosmeri we are used to from the previous Elder Scrolls games. Somebody decided that after almost five years of playing as we wanted to, that none of that mattered, and instead it's become "Here's how you'll be playing your beloved characters from now on, so get used to it," even though the new changes have nothing to do with being stealthy, and aren't even of any use to most players.
"We can't know for sure so let's just assume the most convenient possibility for us. Even if there's literally nothing to support it."
Got it.2 -
Ogou✭✭✭✭✭
It's pretty obvious he was just guessing about the possible reason and (at least) semi-joking.
Neither of those things are "disgusting" things to do.
You are severely overreacting, here.
Oh please. And his only possible guess was this ridiculous idea?
Implying that the previous loremaster left because of the racial passive changes is disgusting. That claim is not based on any facts and only serves to give the racial passive complaints more validity.
There are many other, much more valid, ways to keep this thread going. Spinning up rumors about former ZOS employees is not the way to go.2 -
ryzen_gamer_gal✭✭✭✭could you please put one of those option icons on this thread so i can choose to block even seeing this thread in my list. thank you.0
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Koronach✭✭✭✭✭ryzen_gamer_gal wrote: »could you please put one of those option icons on this thread so i can choose to block even seeing this thread in my list. thank you.
Just don't open the thread.Edited by Koronach on June 1, 2019 3:24PM10 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Implying that the previous loremaster left because of the racial passive changes is disgusting.
And implying that you know more about the situation than anyone else is arrogant. They have had every opportunity to have a discourse with us, but they choose to let us discuss and speculate on our own, so that's all we can really do.
But thanks for helping keep this thread alive! New people are seeing it every day and voicing their opinions as well.
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Ogou✭✭✭✭✭
And implying that you know more about the situation than anyone else is arrogant. They have had every opportunity to have a discourse with us, but they choose to let us discuss and speculate on our own, so that's all we can really do.
But thanks for helping keep this thread alive! New people are seeing it every day and voicing their opinions as well.
I never implied anything of the sort. All I said was that your claim was baseless. Feel free to prove me wrong if you want.
Funnily enough, you did not have to speculate on this specific case. There was a totally valid official response as to why the previous loremaster left but you decided to ignore it on the basis that "we can't know for sure" because ZOS could have lied. Guess that shows how much of an actual discussion you're willing to have.
You're welcome? Though I doubt you need my help.1 -
ryzen_gamer_gal✭✭✭✭could you please put one of those option icons on this thread so i can choose to block even seeing this thread in my list. thank you.0
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BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ryzen_gamer_gal wrote: »could you please put one of those option icons on this thread so i can choose to block even seeing this thread in my list. thank you.
You could just not open the thread. I know you are new to the forums only being here a few months, but reading every thread is not obligatory.
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BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bethesda's E3 is in a few days hopefully they will show off what is coming next, and we see if there will finally be any changes to the Bosmer situation.5 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Jaraal @Ogou
Guys, seriously, the speculation about the loremaster doesn't belong in this thread and throwing insults at each other isn't helping us get stealth back either. It only undermines our quest for stealth as a whole and makes us seem petty. Let's not give them any reason to discount us as conspiracy theorists, no matter how tempting it may be or how many arrows point into the direction.
If you want to settle this, do it in DMs, because the rest is just derailing.
The only nuance of this speculation that is important to our thread is that the loremaster left around the same time and that it is possible he wasn't involved in the process of racial rebalance. As to why that was or what the circumstances are doesn't concern us now because there is no evidence we can reference. Besides, it's also equally possible he personally approved of them, in which case this whole tangent is completely pointless.
In case you need something to do, we had the idea of making a census in Tamriel's outlaw refuges to count the number of Bosmer outlaws compared to other races. I propose we don't count NPCs of the race belonging to the respective zone we are looking at to avoid skewing the results in one direction. After all you can expect with Redguards having 3 zones and Orcs just one, that Redguards would outnumber them greatly if we didn't take that into account.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.9 -
IronWooshu✭✭✭✭✭
✭Give them stealth detection back like Khajiit have but no 10% dmg from stealth... find a better way to PVP.8 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There was a totally valid official response as to why the previous loremaster left
Yes, it was stated that he left after 10 years for "family reasons."
Most people leave their jobs for one of three reasons:
1) They are terminated by the employer
2) They found a better job
or
3) They retire from the work force.
If I quit my job, my family would be kicking my butt back to work to make some money! But, regardless, I hope Mr. Schick's family matters were resolved to his satisfaction.
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Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Jaraal @Ogou
Guys, seriously, the speculation about the loremaster doesn't belong in this thread and throwing insults at each other isn't helping us get stealth back either. It only undermines our quest for stealth as a whole and makes us seem petty. Let's not give them any reason to discount us as conspiracy theorists, no matter how tempting it may be or how many arrows point into the direction.
Well, the timing of his departure coinciding with the bizarre changes to the lore seems significant to me. But I will cease discussion of it as you guys see fit.
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max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IronWooshu wrote: »Give them stealth detection back like Khajiit have but no 10% dmg from stealth... find a better way to PVP.
Yes that what we want from page one. No one here is looking for that 10%.#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom11 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes that what we want from page one. No one here is looking for that 10%.
Exactly this, and perhaps stealth in a racial passive that is beneficial to all Bosmer, not just those who PvP.5 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ok, I had hoped that I would get this all out of my system, but there are still things running around in my head and I need to get them out.
Some necessary background:Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8Cundu_Ertur wrote: »The results are clear. Bosmer and Khajiit have always been consistently the two most stealthy races since racial bonuses existed. However, it is equally clear that Bosmer have always held a slight edge between the two races. The current situation, where Khajiit are the ONLY race to have a meaningful advantage in stealthiness (keep in mind this is across all stealth skills not just sneak, though that certainly is a part) is both unique and wrong.
To see how I got to these conclusions you can refer back to: Sealthiness index #1 and Stealthiness index #2.
Lastly, I am not an Argonian lady farming pumpkins awesomes. If you've upvoted either or both of those posts don't feel like you need to upvote this one, I won't be offended. This is in many ways just a continuation of those posts. I will also be maintaining the distinction between 'sneak' and 'stealth' as defined in the first post referenced.
Some more background:
I will be talking about archetypes and how they are different from roles. The foundation for role-playing games is D&D. The original four classes were Fighter, Magic-user, and Cleric, with Thief being added in one of the earliest supplements. Later games that wanted to get away from the Euro-centric build of D&D folded Magic-User and Cleric into one archetype: the Mage. This was a central concept in games like Quest for Glory, and also showed up in the Ultima series, the mostly forgotten Darklands, and eventually the Dragon Age series. It's a common trope in RPG's in general. The archetype is not the role, however. Roles are more about actually doing things, like doing damage (DPS), absorbing damage (Tank), healing damage (Healer), or utility (buff/debuff, CC, out of combat things like finding/disarming traps, picking locks, diplomacy, etc). The archetype defines what you can do, the role is about how you do those things. A fighter is not going to be a good healer or that useful at utility, but will excel at either DPS or tanking. Thieves are good at DPS and utility, but useless at tanking and not especially good at in-combat healing (though, depending on the game, may be good at out of combat healing). I think part of the underlying problem is that the Wrathstone update was based on a confusion between archetypes and roles.
What does any of this have to do with anything?
I'll need to bring up two analogies. Imagine for a minute that the Wrathstone update included the following:
While some people (particularly in this thread) may see this as a completely valid analogy, others may think it is completely out of left field. But before I discuss it further, I'll need a second analogy, and this will be in the form of an archetypal test question format that we all came to know and despise in school:We felt that the passives for Breton and Altmer were too similar, but we wanted to preserve elements of magicka-based gameplay; so we assigned the only buffs to magicka and magicka recovery to the Bretons and removed all spellcasting abilities from the Altmer. Instead of spells, Altmer will now have the ability to detect and disable spells cast by other players. We are also moving Altmer and Bretons into the same alliance.
My second analogy is this: magicka is to a mage as sneaking is to a thief. It should be intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer that if I were to have made a Magey-ness index similar to the Stealthiness index I have listed above that Altmer and Breton would be numbers 1 and 2 (and I rather suspect but cannot prove that Argonians, Dunmer, and Imperials would round out the top 5). So to remove the ability to cast spells from one of the top spell-casting races is obviously nonsense. And to then put the magic and anti-magic races in the same alliance is just nonsense compounding nonsense and then exponentiating that nonsense by itself. It's the googolplex of nonsense. Would anyone argue that?Words are to a book as ________ are to a song.
Which word best fills in the blank?
a. composers
b. papers
c. turtles
d. notes
Once you understand that sneaking is a vital resource for the Thief archetype the way magicka is a resource, and not just some silly RP utility junk, you can also understand how the Wrathstone update got things wrong. Sneaking is the definitional characteristic of the Thief, like casting spells is for the mage. It is the sine qua non of stealth gameplay, so much so that the terms 'sneak' and 'stealth' have become entirely interchangeable (which is why I'm having to be careful in how I use those words myself). Frankly, the right thing to have done with the sneak bonus was not to limit it to just one race, but rather to have opened it up to more races than the initial two.
Good Lord, dude, you certainly like to watch yourself type. Whatever. Assuming this is a problem what can be done?
I am so glad you asked that, Mr. Completely Imaginary Strawman Person Who Would Probably Never Ask Any Such Question in Real Life! The good news is that what I am suggesting will not involve taking anything from anyone. Well, except for one thing from the Bosmer, but aside from that I mean.
What I feel MUST be done:
Bosmer:
Hunter's Eye: replace the detection bonus with the original bonus to sneaking (WITHOUT the damage bonus from sneak attacks). Leave the rest of the passive alone.
Justification: huh? Where have you been? Re-read all 70-however-many pages of this thread.
What I feel SHOULD be done:
Argonian:
Resourceful: add .5m sneak bonus per rank in this passive.
Argonian Resistance: add poison resistance back (but not immunity to the poisoned effect).
Justification: Argonians are one of the four most consistently stealthy races, and they should therefor also have a bonus to sneaking. They are currently underpowered anyways. I do not mind that they would have two resistances while Bosmer would have only one, frankly, that's the lore and it's been the case more often than not in the other games. I suspect most other Bosmer players would agree. Strictly speaking, the poison thing isn't particularly relevant to the current discussion, but I'm including it anyways because this is MY post and I can do that.
Dark Elf:
Ruination: add .5m sneak bonus per rank in this passive.
Justification: While Dark Elves are hardly underpowered now, they are also one of the four most stealthy races and should also have this bonus.
Orc:
Any one of their passives: Give the Orcs the detection bonus that was taken from the Bosmer.
Justification: Orcs are hardly underpowered, actually it's quite the opposite. However, with both EP and AD having stealthy races, it is only proper that DC have an innate counter. Orcs are the obvious choice, anyways, since they are the only race to have demonstrated this ability in the lore, and are also shown in the lore as being hyper-vigilant to the point of paranoia. This would (or could, at any rate) allow for some sneak/counter-sneak gameplay that the current situation does not allow for.
TLDR:
Sneaking is a resource for people who play as a Thief archetype the way that magicka is a resource for people who play as a Mage archetype. It is nonsense to limit a bonus to that resource to any one race. Give Bosmer their stealth back. Make Bosmer Great Again. Your favorite slogan suitable for chanting here => _____________________.
Edit: I had a hanging url tag that needed to be fixed. Also clarified that I am not asking for the 10% bonus to damage out of sneak to come back for anyone.Edited by Cundu_Ertur on June 16, 2019 5:22PMTaking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.15 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Great post @Cundu_Ertur and I want to add that Nixxiom, a popular WoW streamer who is now playing a lot of ESO and loving it so far, said about ESO that it is the only MMO he played that "got the thief archetype right".
Thievery should not be taken lightly and it should not be treated like an after-thought. It's an important part of the Warrior-Mage-Thief trinity and underrepresented in other MMOs, thus making it all the more important that ESO does not slack on the front that it is currently special on.
It is completely unacceptable that one of the two (actually four) sneaky races of the franchise get their ties to sneakiness severed completely.
I'd say the example from Cundu_Ertur's post is completely valid. Actually it would be even more accurate if it wasn't just between Altmer and Bretons but if ALL races got their magic related boni removed in favor of Bretons keeping them, because that is essentially what happened to racial options for the Thief archetype. There is only one option left.Edited by Ratzkifal on June 1, 2019 8:41PMThis Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.12 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wow, that analysis is worth a reddit post. And overall style reminds me of Dan Simpson from gamefaqs, this is amazing
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Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Cundu_Ertur - masterful post! Your ability to be cogent, precise, and logical makes your posts a joy to read. Thank you!5 -
urthsongSoul ShrivenCundu_Ertur: The archetype is not the role, however. Roles are more about actually doing things, like doing damage (DPS), absorbing damage (Tank), healing damage (Healer), or utility (buff/debuff, CC, out of combat things like finding/disarming traps, picking locks, diplomacy, etc).
One could argue that "thieving" is a role, not an archetype. In ESO this is especially true since there is no primary skill line for a "thief" class. The Nightblade -- which is near as you get to a Rogue archetype -- is probably the class one would choose if they wanted to play the most optimized "thief" (mostly because of its evasion skills).1 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur: The archetype is not the role, however. Roles are more about actually doing things, like doing damage (DPS), absorbing damage (Tank), healing damage (Healer), or utility (buff/debuff, CC, out of combat things like finding/disarming traps, picking locks, diplomacy, etc).
One could argue that "thieving" is a role, not an archetype. In ESO this is especially true since there is no primary skill line for a "thief" class. The Nightblade -- which is near as you get to a Rogue archetype -- is probably the class one would choose if they wanted to play the most optimized "thief" (mostly because of its evasion skills).
I think this is mostly a semantic issue. Thieving is a role the "sneaky archetype" can choose to do with assassinating being the other big role of the sneaky archetype.
Trying to apply theory to ESO is always a bit difficult because the game strives to allow you to be effective in every roll on every class. Archetypes are hidden between the skill lines, sets and weapon types. Here is where ZOS fails to give "the Sneak" archetype what it deserves. The build options for your sneaky characters are very limited. Only a handful of sets that impact sneaking meaningfully and there are close to no active skills that benefit you as they take you out of stealth most of the time. Racial choice is a big deal when it comes to building your Sneak. Not only does it add flavor through lore, it also greatly affects your build freedom.
And that is exactly why the change to Bosmer is such a huge problem for character identity. Not only did ZOS screw the lore and give us a functionally useless passive, they also destroyed what little build diversity was left for Bosmer Sneaks by forcing us to wear the same sets as everyone else, undoing our investment into stealth we made at character creation. We lost the freedom to be as/more effective with different sets.
Translated into another archetype analogy, it is as if muscles were completely irrelevant to being a warrior and a wimp could beat a buff guy in a test of pure strength. All those muscly meathead warriors would surely be quite displeased with ZOS making all their workouts and squats wasted because they struggle lifting their greatsword just as much as any muscleless wimp does.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.10 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, you could try to argue that, but the trope (which is very well established) is 'Fighter, Mage, Thief.' If you look at the tropes page, you can relate it to things as far back as Norse Mythology. The section on TES games is particularly extensive. If it makes you feel any better, you can say 'rogue' instead of 'thief' but really it's the same thing.Cundu_Ertur: "The archetype is not the role, however. Roles are more about actually doing things, like doing damage (DPS), absorbing damage (Tank), healing damage (Healer), or utility (buff/debuff, CC, out of combat things like finding/disarming traps, picking locks, diplomacy, etc). "
One could argue that "thieving" is a role, not an archetype. In ESO this is especially true since there is no primary skill line for a "thief" class. The Nightblade -- which is near as you get to a Rogue archetype -- is probably the class one would choose if they wanted to play the most optimized "thief" (mostly because of its evasion skills).
Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.7 -
Sogreth✭✭✭Do these ZOS members only ever post in forums JUST to delete posts and be passive aggressive? I'm guessing, yes.
ANYways...It's kind of stupid to change the passive like that. No one uses Stealth detection in PvE because it does nothing. Anyone that says they do are either trolling, or just getting the names of their skills mixed up. Not sure why they just didn't have both increased stealth and stealth detection.
The direction these devs make for balance is terrible.9 -
Taloros✭✭✭✭Was thinking about making my new stam necromancer a Bosmer. As I imagine her to be an assassin for the Dark Brotherhood, some stealth bonus would benefit her nicely.
Then, I remembered.
Poor Bosmers.10
This discussion has been closed.