Jaraal wrote: »

Let's be careful to keep the tone of the discussion civil. Granted, it was a callous blow to lore and immersion.... but nothing constructive can come from insults.

It doesn't matter what tone you keep because ZOS isn't reading this thread.

ProbablePaul wrote: »

This thread reads like a bunch of trolling Altmer who, due to their puritanical nature, are inherently blind to their penchant for pretentiousness, ultimately giving their intentions away.

But in all seriousness, this will never be changed, no matter how long you complain. You say it's about the lore, but I don't think you've read it, because if you did you would find that the changes to Bosmer stealth make sense, especially in the way Bosmeri stealth traits contrast with Khajiiti - it matches their shared conflict well, too. It may be out of context due to the era in which it takes place but - rather than sorting through various books and notes - you can read in "A Dance with Fire" how this all fits for the most part. It fits especially well during the era in which ESO takes place, and the three banners war.

If you decide to go through all the various notes and text that are from Bosmer lore directly, or referenced by poets or travellers, there's very little mention of 'stealth' in the sense people are interpreting it. The lore that people are misinterpreting has more to do with what's called 'forest-coupling' and any reference to hiding or sneaking is about concealing one's self behind an object, usually at a great distance. The text called 'the rear guard' depicts this well - it's a great little story, too. Yes, they are good thieves, but that is attributed to their dexterity and agility, not their 'stealth' in the this thread wants it to be implemented.

I do have to thank OP, though; your post encouraged me to read all of the bosmer lore.

Your argument is that Bosmer are good at hiding and that they are also good at stealing, but that they don't use those two traits in conjunction with one another? Just... two coincidental strengths that they never bother to combine?

They've got One Thousand Benefits of Hiding, but stealing ain't one...?

Paul, you might want to check out War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer. I'll highlight the most relevant passage: "It is considered the acme of skill to slip into another tribe's village and steal an item for ransom without being noticed. The larger the item, the greater the prestige. Thanks to centuries of this practice, the tribal Bosmer have become legendary for their stealth. The title of their most famous poem, the Meh Ayleidion, means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding." This is spelled out in the game. Please explain again how everyone is misinterpreting this.

One note about 'forest coupling.' It is mentioned only in two volumes of the Pocket Guide to the Empire which was written by an imperial and quotes another imperial about this ability (IIRC). So far as I am aware, it is never mentioned in any way by a Bosmer. (edit to add: This is important, because it is just relating how other races see Bosmer's stealth: it is described as being so good that it is almost magical, but so far as Bosmer themselves care it isn't even a thing, it's just something they do.)

Furthermore, the lore book 'Mixed Unit Tactics' actually relates a conflict between Bosmer and Khajiit where the Bosmer fail to spot Ohmes hiding in holes, which tends to negate the assertion that Bosmer are all that good at spotting things. Also, having to hide in holes really doesn't support the notion of super-stealthy Khajiit, either.

The only lore supporting a race as having exceptional ability for spotting people in stealth is actually about the Wood Orcs (In the Company of Wood Orcs).

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Let's be careful to keep the tone of the discussion civil. Granted, it was a callous blow to lore and immersion.... but nothing constructive can come from insults.

It doesn't matter what tone you keep because ZOS isn't reading this thread.

I went back and toned it down anyways.

Under protest.

Jaraal wrote: »

Does anyone really believe they looked at the stuff you guys are talking about before they came up with these new passives? They themselves stated that they were modeling the new racials on armor sets already in game. Unfortunately, they seem to have waited until the last minute and scraped the bottom of the barrel and gave Bosmer a passive based on one of the least desirable sets available.

So true - I don't believe they looked at anything at all. Said it before, will say it again - they had two racial passives called "Stealthy" and wanted to change that. They made up the name Hunter's Eye (and someone is probably super proud of it, hence doubling down) and shoehorned some nonsense in there to make it "fit".

I will also accept "flipped a coin and Bosmer came out the loser".

barney2525 wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Just occured to me yesterday... Better late than never... but they really, really have no idea how to balance anything. Look at that.

This is essentially the same passive racial trait, for different races. Only difference is the resist it is focused on, and the ressource it improves.

Argonians : Gain Immunity to the diseased status effect / Increases Max Health by 1000 and Disease Resistance by 2310

Bosmers : Gain immunity to the poisoned effect / Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and Poison Resistance by 2310

(note that, lore-wise, if you keep only one resist per race, argonians and bosmers should be switched)

Dunmers : Gain immunity to the burning status effect / Increases Max Health by 600 and Flame Resistance by 2310

Nords : Gain immunity to the Chilled status effect / Increases your Max Health by 1000 and Cold Resistance by 2310

So, how balanced is that ? This is the same passive, with the same amount of one resist being buffed, the same immunity effect to one type of effect being buffed, but the amount of ressource being buffed varies greatly from race to race. One gets +2000 (I suppose it's to make up for the terrible racial passive that has no use in PvE whatsoever ), one gets 600, others get 1000. And then, you have the Imperials and Redguards, which get +2000 to some ressource, but without any immunity or resist.

That's not balanced at all. And don't even start me on how the lore was *** when Bosmers became guards and Altmers began regenerating stamina with something called SPELL recharge.

Maybe they took into account the percentage of times characters will be faced with those specific situations?

And how many times will PvE Bosmer be faced with stealthed enemies?

anadandy wrote: »

I will also accept "flipped a coin and Bosmer came out the loser".

A double headed Elsweyr coin with a Khajiit on both sides?


Makes perfect sense.

After reading ProbablePaul's improbable assertion that Bosmer are still somehow a stealthy race, I started to think: what if he (assuming a gender here) actually is referring to stealth as the specialization or set of skills as was the case in Oblivion and Morrowind? That led to two trains of thought. However, before we get there, some definitions. In this post I will use the word 'sneak' exclusively to refer to the act of hiding or moving in hiding. The word 'stealth' will at all times in this post refer only to the set of skills not related to magic or combat. A 'stealthy' race will be one that has most of its bonuses to skills not in the sets of combat or magic skills. A 'sneaky' race will be one that has bonuses to sneaking. Hopefully this will remove or reduce the ambiguity of the discussion.

The first thought is the easy refutation: counter-sneak is not necessarily a stealth skill. We can't know what it would be because skill specializations do not and have not existed in ESO, and there is no comparable skill that has ever existed in any TES game before. Of the classic stealth skills, only sneak and pickpocket have any racial bonus in ESO. That's it. Bosmer now have no bonus at all to either. So the assertion that Bosmer are still a stealthy race is entirely false. As has been noted, Imperials are now better at sneaking around now, and so they are arguable the second most stealthy race at this point; Bosmer are tied for last.

Which brings me to the second thought I had: we have constantly asserted that Bosmer have always been a stealthy and sneaky race, but never have we shown this in a comprehensive data-driven way. So what I did was create a stealthiness index using the racial skill bonuses and attribute bonuses/weaknesses in Oblivion. Bonuses are always in multiples of five, so for every 5 point value I used an index value of 1.

For Skyrim, this was easy, just add up the index values for all of the racial skill bonuses for each specialization: warrior, mage, thief. The result was that Bosmer was at the top, with an index of 7 (all bonuses were for stealth skills); Khajiit second with 6; Argonian 5; and Dunmer 3. Pretty much what everyone would expect.

Calculating the Oblivion index was much, much harder. Since there were attributes with racial attribute bonuses AND different attributes governed different skills AND there were different bonuses based on gender, there was a lot more to do. I abandoned the idea of making a comprehensive list for both Oblivion and Morrowind, and instead focused on a comprehensive list for just Oblivion and limited Morrowind to comparing Bosmer and Khajiit. In Oblivion Bosmer females were top dog with a stealthiness index of 16, Bosmer males 12, Khajiit of both genders 11, Argonian males 8 (Argonian females were the 3rd best mages, BTW), and Dunmer females 6. Orc females, on the other hand, are at -13 -- just one off from the theoretical minimum.
Using the Oblivion values as a baseline, I can analyze what happens with Khajiit and Bosmer in Morrowind. Strength and intelligence each add an additional skill (one for each) while the remaining attributes' index values are unchanged. This results in Bosmer of both genders and Khajiit females losing 2 index points. (edit to correct) Bosmer racial bonuses gain 2 index points, Khajiit racial bonuses gain 3 index points. So the final effect is Bosmer females are still on top with 16 points, Khajiit males are second with 14, Bosmer males and Khajiit females are tied for third at 12.(end edit: note that while the absolute values were off by 2, their relation to each other was unchanged.)

The results are clear. Bosmer and Khajiit have always been consistently the two most stealthy races since racial bonuses existed. However, it is equally clear that Bosmer have always held a slight edge between the two races. The current situation, where Khajiit are the ONLY race to have a meaningful advantage in stealthiness (keep in mind this is across all stealth skills not just sneak, though that certainly is a part) is both unique and wrong.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

After reading ProbablePaul's improbable assertion that Bosmer are still somehow a stealthy race, I started to think: what if he (assuming a gender here) actually is referring to stealth as the specialization or set of skills as was the case in Oblivion and Morrowind? That led to two trains of thought. However, before we get there, some definitions. In this post I will use the word 'sneak' exclusively to refer to the act of hiding or moving in hiding. The word 'stealth' will at all times in this post refer only to the set of skills not related to magic or combat. A 'stealthy' race will be one that has most of its bonuses to skills not in the sets of combat or magic skills. A 'sneaky' race will be one that has bonuses to sneaking. Hopefully this will remove or reduce the ambiguity of the discussion.

The first thought is the easy refutation: counter-sneak is not necessarily a stealth skill. We can't know what it would be because skill specializations do not and have not existed in ESO, and there is no comparable skill that has ever existed in any TES game before. Of the classic stealth skills, only sneak and pickpocket have any racial bonus in ESO. That's it. Bosmer now have no bonus at all to either. So the assertion that Bosmer are still a stealthy race is entirely false. As has been noted, Imperials are now better at sneaking around now, and so they are arguable the second most stealthy race at this point; Bosmer are tied for last.

Which brings me to the second thought I had: we have constantly asserted that Bosmer have always been a stealthy and sneaky race, but never have we shown this in a comprehensive data-driven way. So what I did was create a stealthiness index using the racial skill bonuses and attribute bonuses/weaknesses in Oblivion. Bonuses are always in multiples of five, so for every 5 point value I used an index value of 1.

For Skyrim, this was easy, just add up the index values for all of the racial skill bonuses for each specialization: warrior, mage, theif. The result was that Bosmer was at the top, with an index of 7 (all bonuses were for stealth skills); Khajiit second with 6; Argonian 5; and Dunmer 3. Pretty much what everyone would expect.

Full table of stealth index values in Skyrim, sorted from high to low:
Bosmer 7
Khajiit 6
Argonian 5
Dunmer 3
Breton 2
Nord 2
Redguard 1
Altmer 0
Orc 0
Imperial 0

Calculating the Oblivion index was much, much harder. Since there were attributes with racial attribute bonuses AND different attributes governed different skills AND there were different bonuses based on gender, there was a lot more to do. I abandoned the idea of making a comprehensive list for both Oblivion and Morrowind, and instead focused on a comprehensive list for just Oblivion and limited Morrowind to comparing Bosmer and Khajiit. In Oblivion Bosmer females were top dog with a stealthiness index of 16, Bosmer males 12, Khajiit of both genders 11, Argonian males 8 (Argonian females were the 3rd best mages, BTW), and Dunmer females 6. Orc females, on the other hand, are at -13 -- just one off from the theoretical minimum.

Explanation for how values were derived.
Each attribute has a bonus of +/- 5 or 10, so the index is still 1 for each 5 points. Each attribute governs 3 skills, which will be of one or two different specializations: for example speed governs combat and stealth skills. So the index for each attribute is multiplied by how many stealth skills are governed by that attribute. Negative values are possible (and very common it turns out). The racial skill bonus is still 1 point for every 5 bonus points; there are 9 points in total for each race across the 3 specializations. This data will be shown as: race, gender, total index value (attribute bonus + skill bonus).

Bosmer female 16 (+10+6)
Bosmer male 12 (+6+6)
Khajiit both 11 (+6+5)
Argonian male 8 (+6+2)
Dunmer female 6 (+4+2)
Imperial male 2 (-2+4)
Dunmer male 2 (0+2)
Redguard female 1 (0+1)
Altmer female 0 (0+0)
Redguard male -1 (-2+1)
Imperial female -2 (-6+4)
Argonian female -2 (-4+2)
Nord both -4 (-4+0)
Altmer male -4 (-4+0)
Breton female -6 (-6+0)
Breton male -8 (-8+0)
Orc male -11 (-11 +0)
Orc female -13 (-13+0)

I'm not surprised by the values for Orcs. If an Orc wants to hide from you he'll just rip your eyes out.

Using the Oblivion values as a baseline, I can analyze what happens with Khajiit and Bosmer in Morrowind. Strength and intelligence each add an additional skill (one for each) while the remaining attributes' index values are unchanged. This results in Bosmer of both genders and Khajiit females losing 2 index points. Khajiit racial bonuses gain 1 index point. So the final effect is Bosmer females are still on top with 14 points, Khajiit males are second with 12, Bosmer males and Khajiit females are tied for third at 10.

The results are clear. Bosmer and Khajiit have always been consistently the two most stealthy races since racial bonuses existed. However, it is equally clear that Bosmer have always held a slight edge between the two races. The current situation, where Khajiit are the ONLY race to have a meaningful advantage in stealthiness (keep in mind this is across all stealth skills not just sneak, though that certainly is a part) is both unique and wrong.

An excellent breakdown and presentation of data that highlights the absurdity of this situation. Anyone that claims that the Bosmer were never the stealthy race or that they are still stealthy are objectively wrong on multiple fronts. With the implementation of these racials and the negative affect they have had on Bosmer players, ZOS continues to display the fact that they are not serious when it comes Lore and communication despite claiming so.

Their goals for the racials included Lore accuracy, uniqueness, equalization and universal applicability. In regards to Bosmer and I would argue a few other races this endeavor was an absolute failure. Bosmer lost their place as race skilled in stealth gameplay and this was replaced with nothing. Stealth detect has very limited applications and usefulness in PVP and in completely null in PVE while in comparison other races received and maintained bonuses that are applicable to every style of play. This leaves the Bosmer at a disadvantage and the Lore aspect speaks for itself.

Give Bosmer their stealth back.

Full disclosure: I got part of the Morrowind analysis wrong. It doesn't affect the ranking at all, but did affect the absolute index value. Corrected values are in place now. I had left out 2 additional skill point bonuses for Bosmer and Khajiit, so their values all went up by 2. This is because in Morrowind Khajiit and Bosmer both have 8 of 9 skill bonuses in stealth skills, while in Oblivion they have 5 and 6 respectively. I had remembered that Khajiit had a net gain of one additional skill, but forgot the actual numbers.

There's a reason I didn't calculate all of the Morrowind values.

Today on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bv56fz/the_smallest_race_in_the_game_doesnt_get_a/

Bosmer. The smallest race in the game. Known for their stealthiness. For some reason gets a stealth detection bonus and not the Khajit bonus of a smaller stealth radius.

Stealth detection is also useless in PVE. Why not just give Khajit and Bosmer the same bonus!

It kills me that people are still using that "Meh, stealth radius is useless too" argument in response to the uselessness of Stealth Detection. *headdesk*

Edit: I had to comment. Prepping for downvotes.