Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

IronWooshu

Give them stealth detection back like Khajiit have but no 10% dmg from stealth... find a better way to PVP.

Jaraal

Ogou wrote: »

There was a totally valid official response as to why the previous loremaster left

Yes, it was stated that he left after 10 years for "family reasons."


Most people leave their jobs for one of three reasons:


1) They are terminated by the employer
2) They found a better job
or
3) They retire from the work force.


If I quit my job, my family would be kicking my butt back to work to make some money! But, regardless, I hope Mr. Schick's family matters were resolved to his satisfaction.

Jaraal

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@Jaraal @Ogou
Guys, seriously, the speculation about the loremaster doesn't belong in this thread and throwing insults at each other isn't helping us get stealth back either. It only undermines our quest for stealth as a whole and makes us seem petty. Let's not give them any reason to discount us as conspiracy theorists, no matter how tempting it may be or how many arrows point into the direction.

Well, the timing of his departure coinciding with the bizarre changes to the lore seems significant to me. But I will cease discussion of it as you guys see fit.

Sergykid

is there a record for number of pages on a thread? cuz it's not about the topic anymore, people just like to argue

max_only

IronWooshu wrote: »

Give them stealth detection back like Khajiit have but no 10% dmg from stealth... find a better way to PVP.

Yes that what we want from page one. No one here is looking for that 10%.

Jaraal

max_only wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Give them stealth detection back like Khajiit have but no 10% dmg from stealth... find a better way to PVP.

Yes that what we want from page one. No one here is looking for that 10%.

Exactly this, and perhaps stealth in a racial passive that is beneficial to all Bosmer, not just those who PvP.

Cundu_Ertur

Ok, I had hoped that I would get this all out of my system, but there are still things running around in my head and I need to get them out.

Some necessary background:

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Each race stealth index averaged for all 3 games (rounded to nearest integer):
Bosmer 12
Khajiit 10
Dunmer 4
Argonian 3
Imperial 1
Redguard -1
Altmer -1
Nord -2
Breton -4
Orc -8

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

The results are clear. Bosmer and Khajiit have always been consistently the two most stealthy races since racial bonuses existed. However, it is equally clear that Bosmer have always held a slight edge between the two races. The current situation, where Khajiit are the ONLY race to have a meaningful advantage in stealthiness (keep in mind this is across all stealth skills not just sneak, though that certainly is a part) is both unique and wrong.

To see how I got to these conclusions you can refer back to: Sealthiness index #1 and Stealthiness index #2.

Lastly, I am not an Argonian lady farming pumpkins awesomes. If you've upvoted either or both of those posts don't feel like you need to upvote this one, I won't be offended. This is in many ways just a continuation of those posts. I will also be maintaining the distinction between 'sneak' and 'stealth' as defined in the first post referenced.

Some more background:

I will be talking about archetypes and how they are different from roles. The foundation for role-playing games is D&D. The original four classes were Fighter, Magic-user, and Cleric, with Thief being added in one of the earliest supplements. Later games that wanted to get away from the Euro-centric build of D&D folded Magic-User and Cleric into one archetype: the Mage. This was a central concept in games like Quest for Glory, and also showed up in the Ultima series, the mostly forgotten Darklands, and eventually the Dragon Age series. It's a common trope in RPG's in general. The archetype is not the role, however. Roles are more about actually doing things, like doing damage (DPS), absorbing damage (Tank), healing damage (Healer), or utility (buff/debuff, CC, out of combat things like finding/disarming traps, picking locks, diplomacy, etc). The archetype defines what you can do, the role is about how you do those things. A fighter is not going to be a good healer or that useful at utility, but will excel at either DPS or tanking. Thieves are good at DPS and utility, but useless at tanking and not especially good at in-combat healing (though, depending on the game, may be good at out of combat healing). I think part of the underlying problem is that the Wrathstone update was based on a confusion between archetypes and roles.

What does any of this have to do with anything?

I'll need to bring up two analogies. Imagine for a minute that the Wrathstone update included the following:

We felt that the passives for Breton and Altmer were too similar, but we wanted to preserve elements of magicka-based gameplay; so we assigned the only buffs to magicka and magicka recovery to the Bretons and removed all spellcasting abilities from the Altmer. Instead of spells, Altmer will now have the ability to detect and disable spells cast by other players. We are also moving Altmer and Bretons into the same alliance.

While some people (particularly in this thread) may see this as a completely valid analogy, others may think it is completely out of left field. But before I discuss it further, I'll need a second analogy, and this will be in the form of an archetypal test question format that we all came to know and despise in school:

Words are to a book as ________ are to a song.
Which word best fills in the blank?
a. composers
b. papers
c. turtles
d. notes

My second analogy is this: magicka is to a mage as sneaking is to a thief. It should be intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer that if I were to have made a Magey-ness index similar to the Stealthiness index I have listed above that Altmer and Breton would be numbers 1 and 2 (and I rather suspect but cannot prove that Argonians, Dunmer, and Imperials would round out the top 5). So to remove the ability to cast spells from one of the top spell-casting races is obviously nonsense. And to then put the magic and anti-magic races in the same alliance is just nonsense compounding nonsense and then exponentiating that nonsense by itself. It's the googolplex of nonsense. Would anyone argue that?

Once you understand that sneaking is a vital resource for the Thief archetype the way magicka is a resource, and not just some silly RP utility junk, you can also understand how the Wrathstone update got things wrong. Sneaking is the definitional characteristic of the Thief, like casting spells is for the mage. It is the sine qua non of stealth gameplay, so much so that the terms 'sneak' and 'stealth' have become entirely interchangeable (which is why I'm having to be careful in how I use those words myself). Frankly, the right thing to have done with the sneak bonus was not to limit it to just one race, but rather to have opened it up to more races than the initial two.

Good Lord, dude, you certainly like to watch yourself type. Whatever. Assuming this is a problem what can be done?

I am so glad you asked that, Mr. Completely Imaginary Strawman Person Who Would Probably Never Ask Any Such Question in Real Life! The good news is that what I am suggesting will not involve taking anything from anyone. Well, except for one thing from the Bosmer, but aside from that I mean.

What I feel MUST be done:
Bosmer:
Hunter's Eye: replace the detection bonus with the original bonus to sneaking (WITHOUT the damage bonus from sneak attacks). Leave the rest of the passive alone.
Justification: huh? Where have you been? Re-read all 70-however-many pages of this thread.

What I feel SHOULD be done:
Argonian:
Resourceful: add .5m sneak bonus per rank in this passive.
Argonian Resistance: add poison resistance back (but not immunity to the poisoned effect).
Justification: Argonians are one of the four most consistently stealthy races, and they should therefor also have a bonus to sneaking. They are currently underpowered anyways. I do not mind that they would have two resistances while Bosmer would have only one, frankly, that's the lore and it's been the case more often than not in the other games. I suspect most other Bosmer players would agree. Strictly speaking, the poison thing isn't particularly relevant to the current discussion, but I'm including it anyways because this is MY post and I can do that.

Dark Elf:
Ruination: add .5m sneak bonus per rank in this passive.
Justification: While Dark Elves are hardly underpowered now, they are also one of the four most stealthy races and should also have this bonus.

Orc:
Any one of their passives: Give the Orcs the detection bonus that was taken from the Bosmer.
Justification: Orcs are hardly underpowered, actually it's quite the opposite. However, with both EP and AD having stealthy races, it is only proper that DC have an innate counter. Orcs are the obvious choice, anyways, since they are the only race to have demonstrated this ability in the lore, and are also shown in the lore as being hyper-vigilant to the point of paranoia. This would (or could, at any rate) allow for some sneak/counter-sneak gameplay that the current situation does not allow for.

TLDR:
Sneaking is a resource for people who play as a Thief archetype the way that magicka is a resource for people who play as a Mage archetype. It is nonsense to limit a bonus to that resource to any one race. Give Bosmer their stealth back. Make Bosmer Great Again. Your favorite slogan suitable for chanting here => _____________________.

Edit: I had a hanging url tag that needed to be fixed. Also clarified that I am not asking for the 10% bonus to damage out of sneak to come back for anyone.

Ratzkifal

Great post @Cundu_Ertur and I want to add that Nixxiom, a popular WoW streamer who is now playing a lot of ESO and loving it so far, said about ESO that it is the only MMO he played that "got the thief archetype right".

Thievery should not be taken lightly and it should not be treated like an after-thought. It's an important part of the Warrior-Mage-Thief trinity and underrepresented in other MMOs, thus making it all the more important that ESO does not slack on the front that it is currently special on.

It is completely unacceptable that one of the two (actually four) sneaky races of the franchise get their ties to sneakiness severed completely.
I'd say the example from Cundu_Ertur's post is completely valid. Actually it would be even more accurate if it wasn't just between Altmer and Bretons but if ALL races got their magic related boni removed in favor of Bretons keeping them, because that is essentially what happened to racial options for the Thief archetype. There is only one option left.

MartiniDaniels

Wow, that analysis is worth a reddit post. And overall style reminds me of Dan Simpson from gamefaqs, this is amazing

Sylvermynx

@Cundu_Ertur - masterful post! Your ability to be cogent, precise, and logical makes your posts a joy to read. Thank you!

urthsong

Cundu_Ertur: The archetype is not the role, however. Roles are more about actually doing things, like doing damage (DPS), absorbing damage (Tank), healing damage (Healer), or utility (buff/debuff, CC, out of combat things like finding/disarming traps, picking locks, diplomacy, etc).

One could argue that "thieving" is a role, not an archetype. In ESO this is especially true since there is no primary skill line for a "thief" class. The Nightblade -- which is near as you get to a Rogue archetype -- is probably the class one would choose if they wanted to play the most optimized "thief" (mostly because of its evasion skills).

Ratzkifal

urthsong wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur: The archetype is not the role, however. Roles are more about actually doing things, like doing damage (DPS), absorbing damage (Tank), healing damage (Healer), or utility (buff/debuff, CC, out of combat things like finding/disarming traps, picking locks, diplomacy, etc).

One could argue that "thieving" is a role, not an archetype. In ESO this is especially true since there is no primary skill line for a "thief" class. The Nightblade -- which is near as you get to a Rogue archetype -- is probably the class one would choose if they wanted to play the most optimized "thief" (mostly because of its evasion skills).

I think this is mostly a semantic issue. Thieving is a role the "sneaky archetype" can choose to do with assassinating being the other big role of the sneaky archetype.
Trying to apply theory to ESO is always a bit difficult because the game strives to allow you to be effective in every roll on every class. Archetypes are hidden between the skill lines, sets and weapon types. Here is where ZOS fails to give "the Sneak" archetype what it deserves. The build options for your sneaky characters are very limited. Only a handful of sets that impact sneaking meaningfully and there are close to no active skills that benefit you as they take you out of stealth most of the time. Racial choice is a big deal when it comes to building your Sneak. Not only does it add flavor through lore, it also greatly affects your build freedom.

And that is exactly why the change to Bosmer is such a huge problem for character identity. Not only did ZOS screw the lore and give us a functionally useless passive, they also destroyed what little build diversity was left for Bosmer Sneaks by forcing us to wear the same sets as everyone else, undoing our investment into stealth we made at character creation. We lost the freedom to be as/more effective with different sets.
Translated into another archetype analogy, it is as if muscles were completely irrelevant to being a warrior and a wimp could beat a buff guy in a test of pure strength. All those muscly meathead warriors would surely be quite displeased with ZOS making all their workouts and squats wasted because they struggle lifting their greatsword just as much as any muscleless wimp does.

Cundu_Ertur

urthsong wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur: "The archetype is not the role, however. Roles are more about actually doing things, like doing damage (DPS), absorbing damage (Tank), healing damage (Healer), or utility (buff/debuff, CC, out of combat things like finding/disarming traps, picking locks, diplomacy, etc). "

One could argue that "thieving" is a role, not an archetype. In ESO this is especially true since there is no primary skill line for a "thief" class. The Nightblade -- which is near as you get to a Rogue archetype -- is probably the class one would choose if they wanted to play the most optimized "thief" (mostly because of its evasion skills).

Well, you could try to argue that, but the trope (which is very well established) is 'Fighter, Mage, Thief.' If you look at the tropes page, you can relate it to things as far back as Norse Mythology. The section on TES games is particularly extensive. If it makes you feel any better, you can say 'rogue' instead of 'thief' but really it's the same thing.

Sogreth

Do these ZOS members only ever post in forums JUST to delete posts and be passive aggressive? I'm guessing, yes.

ANYways...It's kind of stupid to change the passive like that. No one uses Stealth detection in PvE because it does nothing. Anyone that says they do are either trolling, or just getting the names of their skills mixed up. Not sure why they just didn't have both increased stealth and stealth detection.

The direction these devs make for balance is terrible.

Taloros

Was thinking about making my new stam necromancer a Bosmer. As I imagine her to be an assassin for the Dark Brotherhood, some stealth bonus would benefit her nicely.

Then, I remembered.

Poor Bosmers.

Cundu_Ertur

urthsong wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur: "The archetype is not the role, however. Roles are more about actually doing things, like doing damage (DPS), absorbing damage (Tank), healing damage (Healer), or utility (buff/debuff, CC, out of combat things like finding/disarming traps, picking locks, diplomacy, etc). "

One could argue that "thieving" is a role, not an archetype. In ESO this is especially true since there is no primary skill line for a "thief" class. The Nightblade -- which is near as you get to a Rogue archetype -- is probably the class one would choose if they wanted to play the most optimized "thief" (mostly because of its evasion skills).

I apologize for the lame answer before, I had just gotten home from work. As a follow-up, and hopefully a better answer, there is a distinct difference between the Thief archetype and the Thief class. Those are two different concepts. I think you are focused on the concept of the class.

A more full description of the archetypes from the trope page:

Fighter: The Mighty Glacier if offensively-oriented, or Stone Wall if a defensive specialist. A physical powerhouse of prodigious strength, the fighter solves problems by dicing or smashing them to bits with mêlèe weapons. These include swords, axes, bludgeons, flails, the occasional Blade on a Stick, and of course good ol' fisticuffs but usually not much in the way of ranged weapons unless firearms are widespread, in which case the Fighter will pick automatic weapons and shotguns or just the Biggest Gun Imaginable. This class usually has the best armor as well, making for an effective tank. Sometimes has a special weakness to magic. Often associated with the color red.

Mage: The Glass Cannon if offensive or Support Party Member if defensive. In Fantasy worlds they are a mighty wielder of arcane or divine magic while in Science Fiction or "realistic" settings they have psionics or technology of similar power. In any case, the mage has a tendency to die if enemies look at him funny. This method of solving problems therefore tends to consist of blowing them up before they can get too close, or shaping the battlefield to their benefit. The mage has the ability to take advantage of elemental powers to exploit the enemy's weaknesses, and may also get a number of utility powers to bypass the stickiest situations. It's also possible for them to use their power to heal, making them The Medic. Mages tend to wield either weapons that enhance their abilities like a Magic Wand or essentially Emergency Weapons, usually a lighter weapon like a knife or handgun. They are often limited to use of light armor or no armor at all. Often associated with the color blue.

Thief: The Fragile Speedster. Quite a bit squishier than the fighter, though not as much as the mage, they get around this weakness by finding ways to avoid being hit in the first place. Their methods of solving problems typically involve sneaking by them, stabbing them In the Back, sniping them from a distance, or even talking to them. The weapons of choice are usually light weapons like daggers and handguns or ranged weapons like bows, sniper rifles, and throwing knives. Survival usually depends on stealth abilities, evasion/speed, weapon range, or a combination of these factors, rather than armor, though they'll still wear better armor than the Mage. Often associated with the color green.
(edited to fix the spelling of 'color.')

I seriously recommend glancing at the Elder Scrolls section under RPG's, too.

You are correct in one thing, however; the nightblade really is the only class that works well in the context of the thief archetype. This is, I think, a significant weakness. The TG DLC should have included active skills like the other guilds -- like a stamina-based stealth ability, other buffs and debuffs, and such. It is entirely possible to build a viable Fighter or Mage from weapon/staff and FG/MG/PO/Alliance abilities without slotting even a single class ability; however, this really isn't possible for thief-style gameplay. But this is a much bigger topic, and not really relevant to the matter of Bosmer sneak/stealth.

Kalle_Demos

As of this post there are 2.2k replies and 45.4k views. Nothing within the first 10 pages of the General Discussion forums comes close. Keep it up! #BosmerStealthNow

Ratzkifal

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

As of this post there are 2.2k replies and 45.4k views. Nothing within the first 10 pages of the General Discussion forums comes close. Keep it up! #BosmerStealthNow

Let's hope ZOS realizes that having a big thread like this go ignored isn't making them look very good.
Or perhaps that's the reason why moderation still gets the big [ Z ], to make it appear like we got our answer.

I'm hoping that our persistence will be rewarded in the end as we have the facts on our side.

max_only

Here’s the thing. Zos has a policy of not changing art assets once they go live in game as a result of the racial style redos. They should apply this precedent across the board. After 5 years they made a huge error removing a functionality for Bosmer and Argonians. The best policy is to modify not remove. Even if Bosmer got 2m instead of 3m because they want Khajiit to shine. Even if Argonian and Bosmer got a smaller number on their (now missing) resists. Modify not remove. Who wipes the board clean after 5 years and hundreds of dollars spent? @ZOS_GinaBruno

Jaraal

max_only wrote: »

Here’s the thing. Zos has a policy of not changing art assets once they go live in game

You mean these now nonsensical quest dialogues are never going to be fixed? Oh boy. So much for credibility in storytelling.

TelvanniWizard

All this would be outrageous, if ZO$ had ever cared about lore. But they don´t. Only care about money, not about product´s quality nor legacy.

Uryel

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Evereything that was written in that post

That was awesome. Wish I could give you 10 awesomes at once, but sadly I can only give you one. I know you're not farming them, but still, I would.

Uryel

Jaraal wrote: »

You mean these now nonsensical quest dialogues are never going to be fixed? Oh boy. So much for credibility in storytelling.

I'm not sure what you mean there. The argonians talking about poison resistance when they have non ? bosmers talking about being stealthy when they are not ? Our characters being utterly stupid and oblivious to what's happening when anyone with an IQ above that of a rock could see it coming ? The fact we can kick Molag Bals's arse or just a zillion daedra in a dungeon, but can't for saving someone's life kill THAT one in a quest and have to bargain with it instead ? Dragons returning to Tamriel even though they have been extinct for 400 years, and in a thousand years everyyone in Skyrim will say "Dragons have been exctinct for OVER 1000 years" ? Every DLC quest starter seeking me everywhere ("Do you know how long I've been looking for you ?") even though I'm just a lvl 3 nobody fresh out of the tutorial ?

Uryel

So back on the subject of stealth. As you guys might know by now, I play a Bosmer Nightblade main. Stamblade to be accurate.

Elsweyr is a so-so update for me. Because Nightblade got nerfed for small group content, my damage + debuff skill only does damage now, my damage buff from the assassination line is gone and replaced by a defense buff (because obviously an assassin will try to buff their defense when preparing to strike a mark, hence the placement in assassination, I guess )... As I mostly play duo with my wife who plays a magblade, I can notice the change : we're having a harder time. Not that bad, but but we definetely got nerfed. Again, the idiots from the combat team balanced *** for PvP (in previous update) and raids (in that one), entirely oblivious that most of the player base does NOT focus on those two things. Whatever.

The good part is the Darloc Brae set, though. I now run a Night Silence 5 pieces set for no mobility penalty in stealth, a 3 pieces Night Terror for +2 stealth radius, and a 4 pieces Darloc Brae for an additionnal +2 meters. That's +4 meters and no penalty, meaning I'm only 1 meter short of my former glory. Stealth gameplay is back on the menu.

Now of course, that means I have a magicka recovery bonus I don't care about from Darloc Brae, no effective 3 pieces bonus aside from stealth from Night Terror (as per usual), and basically not much of any sort of combat bonus from sets as a whole. I was used to some sacrifices for optimal stealth, but to that extent, it's new. Still, stealth is back on the menu.

I'm still saying it shouldn't be that extreme, though. Bosmers are stealthy, FFS.

Jaraal

Uryel wrote: »

So back on the subject of stealth. As you guys might know by now, I play a Bosmer Nightblade main. Stamblade to be accurate.

Elsweyr is a so-so update for me. Because Nightblade got nerfed for small group content, my damage + debuff skill only does damage now, my damage buff from the assassination line is gone and replaced by a defense buff (because obviously an assassin will try to buff their defense when preparing to strike a mark, hence the placement in assassination, I guess )... As I mostly play duo with my wife who plays a magblade, I can notice the change : we're having a harder time. Not that bad, but but we definetely got nerfed. Again, the idiots from the combat team balanced *** for PvP (in previous update) and raids (in that one), entirely oblivious that most of the player base does NOT focus on those two things. Whatever.

Not to mention the Bosmer Nightblades who, with (effective) stealth no longer being an option, gave up their Shadowy Cloak and respecced for the Dark Cloak self heal. The last class nerfs turned it from a burst heal to a slower HOT, which makes us even more vulnerable to getting burned down by PvP pressure or hard hitting bosses.

Just a sad state of affairs for Nightblade in general, and especially for Bosmer.

Jaraal

Uryel wrote: »

Now of course, that means I have a magicka recovery bonus I don't care about from Darloc Brae, no effective 3 pieces bonus aside from stealth from Night Terror (as per usual), and basically not much of any sort of combat bonus from sets as a whole. I was used to some sacrifices for optimal stealth, but to that extent, it's new. Still, stealth is back on the menu.

I'm still saying it shouldn't be that extreme, though. Bosmers are stealthy, FFS.

But that still does nothing to restore lore, make quest NPCs make sense again, or make Bosmer thieves elite, as they used to be. My guy used to wear the 3 pc Night Terror and the Night's Silence set, plus he could equip the Shadowrend monster set that would proc a Clannfear to offtank a pursuing guard and reduce the damage he did to me as I escaped. But now he would have to give that up, never be as good as a Khajiit, and still be a worse thief than an Imperial with adding Darloc Brae? No thanks, he will stay retired.

BlueRaven

Now remember wood elves are stealthy because they wear armor of dark elf (night mother), kahjit (Darloc), and Breton (night terror) origins. It’s in the lore somewhere I am sure.

Seraphayel

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

As of this post there are 2.2k replies and 45.4k views. Nothing within the first 10 pages of the General Discussion forums comes close. Keep it up! #BosmerStealthNow

Let's hope ZOS realizes that having a big thread like this go ignored isn't making them look very good.
Or perhaps that's the reason why moderation still gets the big [ Z ], to make it appear like we got our answer.

I'm hoping that our persistence will be rewarded in the end as we have the facts on our side.

Oh this topic is still going on? I mean this thread was ignored since it was first posted, you think they'll acknowledge it now months later after they have been silent? It would be an even bigger embarassment for them to talk about it now than to just keep ignoring it.

Uryel

Jaraal wrote: »

Not to mention the Bosmer Nightblades who, with (effective) stealth no longer being an option, gave up their Shadowy Cloak and respecced for the Dark Cloak self heal. The last class nerfs turned it from a burst heal to a slower HOT, which makes us even more vulnerable to getting burned down by PvP pressure or hard hitting bosses.

"Would you rather use a stealth passive that lasts 1 second, or a slow and weak heal over time ?"

Well, once more, they're giving us free skill points, it seems.

Jaraal

Seraphayel wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

As of this post there are 2.2k replies and 45.4k views. Nothing within the first 10 pages of the General Discussion forums comes close. Keep it up! #BosmerStealthNow

Let's hope ZOS realizes that having a big thread like this go ignored isn't making them look very good.
Or perhaps that's the reason why moderation still gets the big [ Z ], to make it appear like we got our answer.

I'm hoping that our persistence will be rewarded in the end as we have the facts on our side.

Oh this topic is still going on? I mean this thread was ignored since it was first posted, you think they'll acknowledge it now months later after they have been silent? It would be an even bigger embarassment for them to talk about it now than to just keep ignoring it.

There is an ancient Bosmer proverb that states, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease."