Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Alucardmike · May 2019

wedgebert wrote: »

Alucardmike wrote: »

shimm wrote: »

I would just like hunter’s eye changed to... anything else. Worst passive of any racial passive.

Yes. Something more useful, like +10% cuteness or -5% probabilty to sneeze...

Careful now, -5% chance to sneeze would be pretty OP during allergy season

You forgot, that Bosmer have natural immunity to allergy. Or was this also removed like stealth?

Ratzkifal · May 2019

Alucardmike wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Alucardmike wrote: »

shimm wrote: »

I would just like hunter’s eye changed to... anything else. Worst passive of any racial passive.

Yes. Something more useful, like +10% cuteness or -5% probabilty to sneeze...

Careful now, -5% chance to sneeze would be pretty OP during allergy season

You forgot, that Bosmer have natural immunity to allergy. Or was this also removed like stealth?

Pretty sure Allergy immunity falls under disease resistance, which indeed we lost as well

DarkerDreams · May 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Pretty sure Allergy immunity falls under disease resistance, which indeed we lost as well

Yep. We can still eat what we kill, but no guarantee you won't get sick from it now.

Glad to see this thread still going.

Quiet_One · May 2019

I find it extremely silly that suddenly two races which obviously both are stealth focused can't have a stealth passive? They don't have to be the same passive, just both have a stealth bonus in them. Bosmers have always struck me as the stealthy and archer kind, just like wood elves are in many other universes outside of TES.

I do have a bosmer character who I made to be the stealth type, but at this point I can say I'd speak out even if I didn't, it's just that silly.

Alucardmike · May 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Alucardmike wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Alucardmike wrote: »

shimm wrote: »

I would just like hunter’s eye changed to... anything else. Worst passive of any racial passive.

Yes. Something more useful, like +10% cuteness or -5% probabilty to sneeze...

Careful now, -5% chance to sneeze would be pretty OP during allergy season

You forgot, that Bosmer have natural immunity to allergy. Or was this also removed like stealth?

Pretty sure Allergy immunity falls under disease resistance, which indeed we lost as well

I think, allergy is more like poison...

BlueRaven · May 2019

I find it a hard concept to believe that wood elves, of all the races, would have issues with pollen.

jlmurra2 · May 2019

I'm glad this thread is still going strong. The Bosmer stealth passive loss was one of the two most glaring lore inconsistencies brought about by the recent racial passive changes. The Argonian's poison resistance loss being the other.

I understand that the Khajiit are the most stealthy race, yet the Bosmer are well know for this as well, and should have some reduction to their detection radius. For example if Khajiit have a 3m reduction, then the Bosmer would have a 2m reduction.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · May 2019

jlmurra2 wrote: »

I understand that the Khajiit are the most stealthy race, yet the Bosmer are well know for this as well, and should have some reduction to their detection radius. For example if Khajiit have a 3m reduction, then the Bosmer would have a 2m reduction.

But they aren't

Jaraal · May 2019

Agreed.

I've seen many in game references to Bosmer stealth, but can't recall anything from books or npc dialogues about Khajiit stealth........ other than the new back and forth in the Rimmen Outlaw's Refuge.

MartiniDaniels · May 2019

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

jlmurra2 wrote: »

I understand that the Khajiit are the most stealthy race, yet the Bosmer are well know for this as well, and should have some reduction to their detection radius. For example if Khajiit have a 3m reduction, then the Bosmer would have a 2m reduction.

But they aren't

Yep, actually passives are completely mismatched. In original lore Bosmers are more stealthy and better thieves, while Khajiits have better night vision and are acrobats so should have reduced fall damage and increased speed after jump/roll.
But salespersons know that khajiits are like one of distinctive features of ESO, so their racials are made to be useful and universal for average new player of Elsweyr, while bosmer's are like collection of least desired passives and useful only as niche for PVP.

Cundu_Ertur · May 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

jlmurra2 wrote: »

I understand that the Khajiit are the most stealthy race, yet the Bosmer are well know for this as well, and should have some reduction to their detection radius. For example if Khajiit have a 3m reduction, then the Bosmer would have a 2m reduction.

But they aren't

Yep, actually passives are completely mismatched. In original lore Bosmers are more stealthy and better thieves, while Khajiits have better night vision and are acrobats so should have reduced fall damage and increased speed after jump/roll.
But salespersons know that khajiits are like one of distinctive features of ESO, so their racials are made to be useful and universal for average new player of Elsweyr, while bosmer's are like collection of least desired passives and useful only as niche for PVP.

In Morrowwind and Oblivion Bosmer were more sneaky, but Khajiit had some sneakiness and better skill picking locks and pockets. The only reason why Khajiit got more stealth in Skyrim was because Acrobatics disappeared entirely, and since each race had only one main skill and Bosmer had Archery as their main this left stealth as the main skill for Khajiit. Naturally, Bosmer now have no bonus to using bows and no bonus to stealth, meaning there is not one shred of their identity left now.

No-one is fooled: the Devs got Bosmer completely wrong. The time is long passed for them to admit this and indicate how they will correct it.

KMarble · May 2019

Left4Daud wrote: »

@KMarble

If it's "working as intended" it's fundamentally not broken, by definition. You could argue that it's unbalanced. But it's not actually broken.

For the record, I was the poster/tester that initially brought Khajiit super stealth stacking to light back during the Wrathstone PTS, which prompted the devs to make the following changes:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Khajiit

Feline Ambush: Decreased the reduction of your Stealth radius to 3m from 5m.

Developer Comment:

With the introduction of CP scaling with the flat stats of the races, we made sure to make some minor adjustments so Khajiit wouldn't fall behind the other races. The bonus to the stealth radius was also slightly over tuned and allowed you to sneak too effectively. Now, you shouldn't be able to sneak in the face of guards and wave unless you've heavily invested into sneaking with gear and other passives.

You shouldn't be able to sneak in the face of guards and wave unless you've heavily invested into sneaking with gear and other passives.

That is from the devs themselves.

It's working as intended.

Thank you for correcting me. For some reason, I missed that dev comment. I was wrongly assuming they lowered the stealth back then because it was too much (IMO, it was) and nothing else.

Now I see that there was another element, which we didn't know about back then, the gear set.

haelene · May 2019

Still a useless passive. Stealth or no stealth, give me something I can actually use.

Jaraal · May 2019

And the more I think about it, the more it appears to me that the whole back and forth dialogue between the Khajiit and the Bosmer in Rimmen about who are the better thieves is ZOS' tongue in cheek way of responding to this entire discussion.

BlueRaven · May 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

And the more I think about it, the more it appears to me that the whole back and forth dialogue between the Khajiit and the Bosmer in Rimmen about who are the better thieves is ZOS' tongue in cheek way of responding to this entire discussion.

I must have missed this, where is it?

Jaraal · May 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

And the more I think about it, the more it appears to me that the whole back and forth dialogue between the Khajiit and the Bosmer in Rimmen about who are the better thieves is ZOS' tongue in cheek way of responding to this entire discussion.

I must have missed this, where is it?

Go to the Outlaw's Refuge in Rimmen, talk to both fences. They each have about four lines of dialogue about what race makes the better thieves.

KMarble · May 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

And the more I think about it, the more it appears to me that the whole back and forth dialogue between the Khajiit and the Bosmer in Rimmen about who are the better thieves is ZOS' tongue in cheek way of responding to this entire discussion.

OT: It isn't the only one "response" to forum threads either. I laughed when I went through the dialogue to get the new inn room.

That one has nothing what-so-ever to do with this discussion, but I thought it was funny, and a clever way to communicate with parts of their audience.

Cundu_Ertur · May 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

And the more I think about it, the more it appears to me that the whole back and forth dialogue between the Khajiit and the Bosmer in Rimmen about who are the better thieves is ZOS' tongue in cheek way of responding to this entire discussion.

The problem is that after this silly racial change from Wrathstone, there's no possible debate: Khajiit and only Khajiit are the best thieves. Bosmer have not one single buff to any skill that is in any way related to thievery. So even having the debate means that the change is still lore-breaking, it even violates the lore that has come afterwards.

I am getting increasingly frustrated at both the change itself and the maladroit way it has been handled since.

Jaraal · May 2019

Let's be careful to keep the tone of the discussion civil. Granted, it was a callous blow to lore and immersion.... but nothing constructive can come from insults.

Alucardmike · May 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

Let's be careful to keep the tone of the discussion civil. Granted, it was a callous blow to lore and immersion.... but nothing constructive can come from insults.

But the only "answer" from ZOS, was because of the insults.

JadeCoin · May 2019

Alucardmike wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Let's be careful to keep the tone of the discussion civil. Granted, it was a callous blow to lore and immersion.... but nothing constructive can come from insults.

But the only "answer" from ZOS, was because of the insults.

The hope is that they're listening, even if they don't answer. I mentioned it before, but some insiders have told us the devs do take feedback seriously when they make decisions. We have no way of knowing, of course, but an open channel of communication is better than nothing.

Insults may provoke a response, but a person provoked might also stop listening. And that would be a shame, because we have an awful lot of things worth saying here.

Cundu_Ertur · May 2019

Fine.

Deathlord92 · May 2019

My Breton a better thief then any khajjit or bosmer 😎

NotaDaedraWorshipper · May 2019

Kalle_Demos · May 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

I don't particularly want to quit, but if I have to, I will.

I don't make empty promises.

Quit both WoW and GW2, with no problems at all and will happily quit this too, if I have to.

See, this is what I don't understand. Many, many people have said this in this thread, some have actually quit and uninstalled, and virtually nobody is creating new Bosmer characters..... and a total of zero players have said stealth detection is beneficial the way it's currently set up. And we are but a fraction of the frustrated players that also fail to see the logic of this change. But they'd rather feel "right" about the decisions they made, than have happy (and paying) players.

Somebody help me understand it, because they sure aren't saying anything about it.

I canceled my subscription and uninstalled after it was clear that the devs wouldn't see reason or didn't care too. I'd been an active player or years, bought DLC, played with streamers on twitch, joined Discord groups, the works. Not a Bosmer player but was disappointing with several poor reasoned choices regarding racial balance, specifically Dunmer, Orc, the ridiculous stamina passive for Altmer but what has been done to Bosmer and the paying customers who've worked on them or years was unforgivable and my final straw.

ZOS acknowledges the criticism they receive for the heavy handed changes no one likes and their lack of communication but this was just more of the same and they have shown absolutely no inclination of altering their behavior. I've been as ES player far longer than I was an ESO player and had no trouble saving my money for the next ES game where the devs hopefully won't butcher the lore and treat their customers like Guar s'wit.

Cundu_Ertur · May 2019

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

I don't particularly want to quit, but if I have to, I will.

I don't make empty promises.

Quit both WoW and GW2, with no problems at all and will happily quit this too, if I have to.

See, this is what I don't understand. Many, many people have said this in this thread, some have actually quit and uninstalled, and virtually nobody is creating new Bosmer characters..... and a total of zero players have said stealth detection is beneficial the way it's currently set up. And we are but a fraction of the frustrated players that also fail to see the logic of this change. But they'd rather feel "right" about the decisions they made, than have happy (and paying) players.

Somebody help me understand it, because they sure aren't saying anything about it.

I canceled my subscription and uninstalled after it was clear that the devs wouldn't see reason or didn't care too. I'd been an active player or years, bought DLC, played with streamers on twitch, joined Discord groups, the works. Not a Bosmer player but was disappointing with several poor reasoned choices regarding racial balance, specifically Dunmer, Orc, the ridiculous stamina passive for Altmer but what has been done to Bosmer and the paying customers who've worked on them or years was unforgivable and my final straw.

ZOS acknowledges the criticism they receive for the heavy handed changes no one likes and their lack of communication but this was just more of the same and they have shown absolutely no inclination of altering their behavior. I've been as ES player far longer than I was an ESO player and had no trouble saving my money for the next ES game where the devs hopefully won't butcher the lore and treat their customers like Guar s'wit.

but...but...but...you got an awesome

Sylvermynx · May 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

4 Bosmeri. 0 points in Hunter's Eye.

7 Bosmeri. 0 points in hunter's eye. As you might recall, I don't play my Bosmeri as stealthy - but I have ZERO use for hunter's eye in any case.

ProbablePaul · May 2019

This thread reads like a bunch of trolling Altmer who, due to their puritanical nature, are inherently blind to their penchant for pretentiousness, ultimately giving their intentions away.

But in all seriousness, this will never be changed, no matter how long you complain. You say it's about the lore, but I don't think you've read it, because if you did you would find that the changes to Bosmer stealth make sense, especially in the way Bosmeri stealth traits contrast with Khajiiti - it matches their shared conflict well, too. It may be out of context due to the era in which it takes place but - rather than sorting through various books and notes - you can read in "A Dance with Fire" how this all fits for the most part. It fits especially well during the era in which ESO takes place, and the three banners war.

If you decide to go through all the various notes and text that are from Bosmer lore directly, or referenced by poets or travellers, there's very little mention of 'stealth' in the sense people are interpreting it. The lore that people are misinterpreting has more to do with what's called 'forest-coupling' and any reference to hiding or sneaking is about concealing one's self behind an object, usually at a great distance. The text called 'the rear guard' depicts this well - it's a great little story, too. Yes, they are good thieves, but that is attributed to their dexterity and agility, not their 'stealth' in the this thread wants it to be implemented.

I do have to thank OP, though; your post encouraged me to read all of the bosmer lore.

Cundu_Ertur · May 2019

ProbablePaul wrote: »

This thread reads like a bunch of trolling Altmer who, due to their puritanical nature, are inherently blind to their penchant for pretentiousness, ultimately giving their intentions away.

But in all seriousness, this will never be changed, no matter how long you complain. You say it's about the lore, but I don't think you've read it, because if you did you would find that the changes to Bosmer stealth make sense, especially in the way Bosmeri stealth traits contrast with Khajiiti - it matches their shared conflict well, too. It may be out of context due to the era in which it takes place but - rather than sorting through various books and notes - you can read in "A Dance with Fire" how this all fits for the most part. It fits especially well during the era in which ESO takes place, and the three banners war.

If you decide to go through all the various notes and text that are from Bosmer lore directly, or referenced by poets or travellers, there's very little mention of 'stealth' in the sense people are interpreting it. The lore that people are misinterpreting has more to do with what's called 'forest-coupling' and any reference to hiding or sneaking is about concealing one's self behind an object, usually at a great distance. The text called 'the rear guard' depicts this well - it's a great little story, too. Yes, they are thieves, but that's attributes to their dexterity and agility, which doesn't concern stealth much in the way you want it implemented.

I do have to thank OP, though; your post encouraged me to read all of the bosmer lore.

WHAT BOSMER STEALTH?

There is absolutely not the slightest shred of anything stealthy about Bosmer now. Unless you are one of those "up is just another form of down" people who wander in every now and again to spout nonsense. I guess the numerous bumps their sheogorath-inspired posts generate have some value, though.

Jaraal · May 2019

Yeah, Bosmer are tied for the least stealthiest race in the latest version of wood elf "lore." In fact, you could call them the Anti-Stealth now, as their new role is searching for stealth throughout Tamriel in a couple zones and destroying it. So, not only has their lore been eradicated, it has actually been corrupted into something totally against their core value as a race.