Fine.

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

I don't particularly want to quit, but if I have to, I will.

I don't make empty promises.

Quit both WoW and GW2, with no problems at all and will happily quit this too, if I have to.

See, this is what I don't understand. Many, many people have said this in this thread, some have actually quit and uninstalled, and virtually nobody is creating new Bosmer characters..... and a total of zero players have said stealth detection is beneficial the way it's currently set up. And we are but a fraction of the frustrated players that also fail to see the logic of this change. But they'd rather feel "right" about the decisions they made, than have happy (and paying) players.

Somebody help me understand it, because they sure aren't saying anything about it.

I canceled my subscription and uninstalled after it was clear that the devs wouldn't see reason or didn't care too. I'd been an active player or years, bought DLC, played with streamers on twitch, joined Discord groups, the works. Not a Bosmer player but was disappointing with several poor reasoned choices regarding racial balance, specifically Dunmer, Orc, the ridiculous stamina passive for Altmer but what has been done to Bosmer and the paying customers who've worked on them or years was unforgivable and my final straw.

ZOS acknowledges the criticism they receive for the heavy handed changes no one likes and their lack of communication but this was just more of the same and they have shown absolutely no inclination of altering their behavior. I've been as ES player far longer than I was an ESO player and had no trouble saving my money for the next ES game where the devs hopefully won't butcher the lore and treat their customers like Guar s'wit.

but...but...but...you got an awesome

This thread reads like a bunch of trolling Altmer who, due to their puritanical nature, are inherently blind to their penchant for pretentiousness, ultimately giving their intentions away.

But in all seriousness, this will never be changed, no matter how long you complain. You say it's about the lore, but I don't think you've read it, because if you did you would find that the changes to Bosmer stealth make sense, especially in the way Bosmeri stealth traits contrast with Khajiiti - it matches their shared conflict well, too. It may be out of context due to the era in which it takes place but - rather than sorting through various books and notes - you can read in "A Dance with Fire" how this all fits for the most part. It fits especially well during the era in which ESO takes place, and the three banners war.

If you decide to go through all the various notes and text that are from Bosmer lore directly, or referenced by poets or travellers, there's very little mention of 'stealth' in the sense people are interpreting it. The lore that people are misinterpreting has more to do with what's called 'forest-coupling' and any reference to hiding or sneaking is about concealing one's self behind an object, usually at a great distance. The text called 'the rear guard' depicts this well - it's a great little story, too. Yes, they are good thieves, but that is attributed to their dexterity and agility, not their 'stealth' in the this thread wants it to be implemented.

I do have to thank OP, though; your post encouraged me to read all of the bosmer lore.

ProbablePaul wrote: »

This thread reads like a bunch of trolling Altmer who, due to their puritanical nature, are inherently blind to their penchant for pretentiousness, ultimately giving their intentions away.

But in all seriousness, this will never be changed, no matter how long you complain. You say it's about the lore, but I don't think you've read it, because if you did you would find that the changes to Bosmer stealth make sense, especially in the way Bosmeri stealth traits contrast with Khajiiti - it matches their shared conflict well, too. It may be out of context due to the era in which it takes place but - rather than sorting through various books and notes - you can read in "A Dance with Fire" how this all fits for the most part. It fits especially well during the era in which ESO takes place, and the three banners war.

If you decide to go through all the various notes and text that are from Bosmer lore directly, or referenced by poets or travellers, there's very little mention of 'stealth' in the sense people are interpreting it. The lore that people are misinterpreting has more to do with what's called 'forest-coupling' and any reference to hiding or sneaking is about concealing one's self behind an object, usually at a great distance. The text called 'the rear guard' depicts this well - it's a great little story, too. Yes, they are good thieves, but that is attributed to their dexterity and agility, not their 'stealth' in the this thread wants it to be implemented.

I do have to thank OP, though; your post encouraged me to read all of the bosmer lore.

Nothing in the lore states that Khajiit are the stealth race and Bosmer are the stealth detection race.

In fact, the lore states the exact opposite.

@ProbablePaul Do I get that right? You are telling us that Bosmer have never been stealthy and that the forest-coupling ability is actually just line-of-sighting? Sorry, but isn't regular stealth in theory also mostly just line-of-sighting? The forest coupling ability is described as "chameleon-like skin", which admittedly is probably too difficult to render to make it visually into any game. To have chameleon-like skin is definitely quite helpful when trying to hide.
(Source: "Pocket Guide to the empire, First Edition: Wild Regions" - it's describing the Maormer skin and refering to their chameleon-like skin as similar to the Bosmer's forest-coupling ability, allowing us to conclude that it's more than just hiding behind things.)

But fine, suppose Bosmer are only stealthy because of their agility. So what? What are Khajiit then? Only stealthy because of their agility. That's exactly why Sneaking got the boost from the removal of Acrobatics in Skyrim and not another skilll. You could argue that their tiger patterns act as camouflage (after all, according to you Bosmer don't possess such camouflage colours), but if that was the case then Orcs and Redguards would also be able to hide in dimly lit places better than races with lighter complexion. Seeing how every stealth mission and most caves are badly lit, they should get a stealth bonus too. (I am not listing Dunmer, because Dunmer should get a stealth bonus anyway, regardless of their complexion.) So camouflage colours alone couldn't be making the difference why Khajiit are supposedly better at stealth.

Which brings us back to "only being agile".
In games where Acrobatics was a thing, Bosmer were clearly still leaning towards sneak. So if their stealth is only a side effect of them being "able to move quickly and easily", why is it that older games don't see them that way?
I find your argument that Bosmer are only stealthy because of their "agility" flawed. Besides, stealth has always been part of the agility attribute, even for Khajiit, so either you are actually referring to acrobatics or you are wrong.

Still, even if we suppose that is true and Bosmer are only stealthy because of their "ability to move quickly and easily", but actually acrobatics and not agility, then why do we not have more speed while sneaking to represent just that? Where does the detection come into play? The people in this thread would for the most part be happy if Bosmer got ANYTHING actively stealth related. Counter stealth is not stealth. Period. You can slap counter-stealth on them after you've given them proper stealth if you want, to make them better scouts, but otherwise they just become Guards and Sentries, which is definitely not in line with the traditional Bosmer fantasy.

Yes, the never ending rivalry between Khajiit and Bosmer is a thing and it's great in theory that Bosmer and Khajiit have buffs abilities that cancel each other out, but I'd say that the way it was implemented Bosmer definitely got the short end of the stick. If you are going to do passives like that, you need to make sure they are symmetrical. Giving one race a universally useful buff and the other a universally useless one isn't what I'd call symmetrical.
Besides, if that was the case, then ZOS would have mentioned that in their explanation, wouldn't they? So no, I don't think your line of argumentation holds up at all as it is now so please elaborate what you found in A Dance in Fire and The Rear Guard that I overlooked when I read those books. I sure hope you are not confusing Menegur for the entire race though, because if individuals mattered in this, then Nords would be excellent mages.

Jaraal wrote: »

Problem is none of this matters when you have PvP devs crunching raw numbers and coming up with formlae to counter whine inducing 1v1 strategy.

Does anyone really believe they looked at the stuff you guys are talking about before they came up with these new passives? They themselves stated that they were modeling the new racials on armor sets already in game. Unfortunately, they seem to have waited until the last minute and scraped the bottom of the barrel and gave Bosmer a passive based on one of the least desirable sets available.

Debating lore is good, but it's barking up the wrong tree. If even their own loremaster rubber stamped these crazy changes, then it's not likely they will be swayed by reason of what lore is right or wrong.

ZoS left themselves open to this line of attack by repeatedly claiming a lore basis for these changes and patting themselves on the back for the most lore-friendly changes in the history of ever, so we have every right to call them on their … uhmmmm, I'm supposed to keep this civil so how can I say "BS" without actually saying "BS?" … um, let's go with inaccuracies. So we can call them on their inaccuracies.

However, by all means that doesn't mean we should ignore the practical aspects and you are correct, too, to note that what we have instead is uselessness scraped from the bottom of the barrel labelled "crap."

The whole stealth/counter-stealth gameplay thing could be interesting IF WE WEREN'T IN THE SAME ALLIANCE. Putting the stealth and counter-stealth races in the same alliance was just … ugh damn to the depths whatever mutton-head came up with civility! … I have no words available to me to describe the foolishness of it.

"Civility" is going to give me an aneurysm.

Uryel wrote: »

Just occured to me yesterday... Better late than never... but they really, really have no idea how to balance anything. Look at that.

This is essentially the same passive racial trait, for different races. Only difference is the resist it is focused on, and the ressource it improves.

Argonians : Gain Immunity to the diseased status effect / Increases Max Health by 1000 and Disease Resistance by 2310

Bosmers : Gain immunity to the poisoned effect / Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and Poison Resistance by 2310

(note that, lore-wise, if you keep only one resist per race, argonians and bosmers should be switched)

Dunmers : Gain immunity to the burning status effect / Increases Max Health by 600 and Flame Resistance by 2310

Nords : Gain immunity to the Chilled status effect / Increases your Max Health by 1000 and Cold Resistance by 2310

So, how balanced is that ? This is the same passive, with the same amount of one resist being buffed, the same immunity effect to one type of effect being buffed, but the amount of ressource being buffed varies greatly from race to race. One gets +2000 (I suppose it's to make up for the terrible racial passive that has no use in PvE whatsoever ), one gets 600, others get 1000. And then, you have the Imperials and Redguards, which get +2000 to some ressource, but without any immunity or resist.

That's not balanced at all. And don't even start me on how the lore was *** when Bosmers became guards and Altmers began regenerating stamina with something called SPELL recharge.

Maybe they took into account the percentage of times characters will be faced with those specific situations?

Jaraal wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Just occured to me yesterday... Better late than never... but they really, really have no idea how to balance anything. Look at that.

This is essentially the same passive racial trait, for different races. Only difference is the resist it is focused on, and the ressource it improves.

Argonians : Gain Immunity to the diseased status effect / Increases Max Health by 1000 and Disease Resistance by 2310

Bosmers : Gain immunity to the poisoned effect / Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and Poison Resistance by 2310

(note that, lore-wise, if you keep only one resist per race, argonians and bosmers should be switched)

Dunmers : Gain immunity to the burning status effect / Increases Max Health by 600 and Flame Resistance by 2310

Nords : Gain immunity to the Chilled status effect / Increases your Max Health by 1000 and Cold Resistance by 2310

So, how balanced is that ? This is the same passive, with the same amount of one resist being buffed, the same immunity effect to one type of effect being buffed, but the amount of ressource being buffed varies greatly from race to race. One gets +2000 (I suppose it's to make up for the terrible racial passive that has no use in PvE whatsoever ), one gets 600, others get 1000. And then, you have the Imperials and Redguards, which get +2000 to some ressource, but without any immunity or resist.

That's not balanced at all. And don't even start me on how the lore was *** when Bosmers became guards and Altmers began regenerating stamina with something called SPELL recharge.

Maybe they took into account the percentage of times characters will be faced with those specific situations?

And how many times will PvE Bosmer be faced with stealthed enemies?

Oooo ooo ooo math! Sweet, lemme pull up my scientific Windows calculator, grab a slide rule, and get some graph paper! Ok, let's see.... carry the one... take the integral... apply a fourier transform... let's just throw a pi in there because everything is better with pi... hit the equals button and:
ZERO.

So there's your answer.

I see that the dynamic where players are criticizing ZOS' choices by pointing out facts and sharing sources are interrupted by others who claim the opposite without a shred of evidence is back. I have fond memories of entire threads about the absurd Altmer 'spell' recharge passive being hijacked by posters defending ZOS' blatant hypocrisy with regards to lore and useful passives by trying to claim that Altmer, the most magically inclined race in the series, are not actually magical.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn that such posters are actually employees that post so that there are opinions on 'both sides' to create the illusion of debate. That way ZOS doesn't actually have to stop in and address our concerns because they are 'all over the map'. How's that 'better communication' coming along @ZOS_GinaBruno ?

I don't have any better explanation as to why anyone would defend this. You cannot debate whether [insert public figure] has a single head or four functional heads each with fully formed brains and independent thoughts. One is true and the other is a provable lie. Bosmer are stealthy. Altmer are magical. SMH.

@Sylvermynx

Jaraal wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

I will also accept "flipped a coin and Bosmer came out the loser".

A double headed Elsweyr coin with a Khajiit on both sides?


Makes perfect sense.

Actually it's a double moon coin. With a kahjit on one side.




(I am just kidding, I know what you meant and I agree.)

Tasear wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/477022/what-race-did-you-choose-for-necromancer#latest

🤔 Reasons to buff bosmer

Why would you choose Bosmer for a necromancer?