Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Ratzkifal · March 2019

Gibgarde wrote: »

My guess at this point is, they hear our feedback and intend to do something. It will likely be something we're not tossing around. My guess is an extension of legerdemian that would give us the same stealth we had before back, only everyone else can get it too. But that still means that bosmer are equal to most other races as far as their stealth goes...BUT if they let us trait into stealth via new traits enough, we'll be more than good enough at it without the need for a racial and they can keep the "invis peeking" racial we've been given to "keep them lore-friendly".

Would it be ideal? It depends on what kind of traits they toss in, if any. We could end up sneakier than before, along with everyone else, which I think would be great. We have 2 DLCs revolving around sneaking and right now we only have 1 race that can do it super well. They could fix this with Elswyr.

Pickpocketing all 3 items at once, better stealth, faster in stealth, things like that would make the sneakthief gameplay a lot more fun and accessible for those of us that are willing to dump about 15 more skill points into it.

Or they can leave stealth as-is and and only the flavor-of-the-month race (khajit) would be happy, which would not be so good.

I think you are right, but I hope you are not. I wouldn't like a system like that. The races need to distinguish themselves from each other. Giving everyone access to the same buffs won't help that. Bosmer are better sneak thieves than Altmer, Bretons, Imperials, Nords, Orcs and Redguards any if the racial passives don't support that, then they aren't accurate. And if they aren't accurate, then they are pretty pointless. I'd rather have a "choose your destiny" at the start instead of racials than inaccurate racials and a public domain systems to make everyone equally unspecial.

BlueRaven · March 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@BlueRaven

A better analogy would be...

"I've got a flesh wound, guess I'll go ahead and cut my legs off, that'll show 'em"

or

"My leg is bleeding badly, but I won't put on that tourniquet!

No sorry, that's a terrible analogy and it is missing the point entirely. I'm not saying his was better, but it came definitely closer.

The analogy I was going for was if an outside force negatively impacts you (crashes into your car) you expect them to come up with a better solution then "fix it yourself" in the cheapest way possible.

Zos hinted at systems etc. for stealth, I want to know what they are talking about. A "we'll fix your car later" response, I want to see them pony up a solution.

Hand_Bacon · March 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

The analogy I was going for was if an outside force negatively impacts you (crashes into your car) you expect them to come up with a better solution then "fix it yourself" in the cheapest way possible.

I can understand that, but its ZoS car that you're driving. They made a change to their car that you don't like. At least there are options to adjust things back closer to what you like.

I don't see ZOS as one who's going to pony up a solution because they don't see it as a problem rather a step in their planned direction.

BlueRaven · March 2019

@max_only has another thread going on about showing screenshots of your Imperials and with all this talk about gear etc I suddenly felt the urge to share a screenshot of my bosmer.

Carry on. I just wanted to get it out of my system.

Sylvermynx · March 2019

Well.... @Hand_Bacon - that might depend on how deep a Bosmer player is involved in lore and RP. I repeat, I'm not doing sneaky with my Bosmer, so this isn't an issue for me. But for those who've always played sneak thieves with Bosmer ever since TES started?

It's a major issue. It isn't going to make them happy with a "bandaid".

Now, I did play sneaky archers in Skyrim (because of an OP bow etc. from a mod) but it's the only one of the SPMR games where I did so. And I did so after the bajillionth time playing Skyrim because I was SO TIRED of the whole combat thing. I get.... grumpy.... about having to kill my way through a game to advance, always have. That's not changing from game to game, so I'm not about to get less grumpy either. My RP prefs tend toward diplomacy, kindness, and sweetness and light. Yeah yeah, no need to rag on me about it. I don't get games that provide those.... because there aren't any.

So I deal with combat. In a SPMR game like Skyrim, I "fix" that with mods. In this game, I do what I can (difficult though it is due to 2000 ms+ ping), and stuff I can't do for that reason, I don't do. I love the game - exploring, crafting, doing side quests where I don't die umpty times to a mini-boss who's actually harder in some cases than the end boss.

If I was so invested in sneaky thief, for a while I personally would go the armor route etc. But eventually.... I'd probably just leave the game. No, I don't do sneak on my girls. But if I did, and it didn't get fixed (without bandaids!) very shortly, I'd be gone.

BlueRaven · March 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

The analogy I was going for was if an outside force negatively impacts you (crashes into your car) you expect them to come up with a better solution then "fix it yourself" in the cheapest way possible.

I can understand that, but its ZoS car that you're driving. They made a change to their car that you don't like. At least there are options to adjust things back closer to what you like.

I don't see ZOS as one who's going to pony up a solution because they don't see it as a problem rather a step in their planned direction.

So what is the proper analogy for you?

I am leasing a sports car from ZoS and I come down one day to find they swapped out my sportscar for a SUV? Are we really going to spend all this time on this analogy?

We all know exactly what I meant. Zos screwed up Bosmer gameplay, and I am not going to put my character in worse gear just as fix and go whistling into the night as if nothing is wrong.

Hand_Bacon · March 2019

@Sylvermynx

I completely understand that, but the point about band-aids is at least encouraging their use so people don't have to abandon their beloved characters in the short term.

Sylvermynx · March 2019

@BlueRaven - well.... actually I drive my full-size F250 diesel exactly as I drove my 240Z when I still had one (before we moved up here and had snow - lots of it - most winters.... can't really use a sports car in the snow....) The biggest issue I have with the truck is it's not a manual unlike the '95 diesel that burned up three years ago January.

So.... yep. I guess you can call me a danger to the unsuspecting.... but I'm a really good driver, so it's not a big deal.

But yes, ZOS screwed the pooch on this one, and they're simply not willing to admit yet that they also bought the farm. I'm hopeful that eventually someone will sit on those to whom only pvp is viable.... but I'm also not holding my breath.

Hand_Bacon · March 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

I am leasing a sports car from ZoS and I come down one day to find they swapped out my sportscar for a SUV? Are we really going to spend all this time on this analogy?

You brought it up. Perspective is important. They didn't swap anything, same car, different seat maybe.

EDIT: At least there are cushions you can use so your backside doesn't hurt so much for the moment.

Ratzkifal · March 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

No sorry, that's a terrible analogy and it is missing the point entirely. I'm not saying his was better, but it came definitely closer.

You've put forth a very well thought out and organized objection.

The problem with rejecting help like armor sets because its not what an individual may prefer, even in the short term undermines all your work.

Its important to have integrity and appear rational, even if the changes drive you crazy.

1. People have claimed that the stealth bonus is very important to them and what they do in PvE.
2. Some people claim this is why they rolled a Bosmer. Once again very important aspect of the game to them.
3. The change doesn't help them at all as the stealth bonus is what really helped them.
4. The change has been made, for now at least, maybe forever.

THE Question: Wouldn't it be a good thing to encourage the use of "band-aids" to help people handicapped by this change, either until its changed again or at least to continue to enjoy that part of the game?

One answer is rational and the other is not.

And while that may be a rational decision, the way you presented it thus far was completely tactless. It's obvious that this is the only thing we can do now on short term to improve thieving gameplay, but that is nothing anyone of us wants to hear. We know that already. Some of us are even doing that while grinding their teeth. But while a bandaid might stop the bleeding, it does not still the pain.
Before Bosmer were BiS for anything, the choice of making a Bosmer was a personal one and with their latest update, ZOS messed with this choice, creating a personal issue. Some people are affected, others are not and some others are truly disheartened and saddened to the point that they refuse to put their trust (aka money) into ZOS until this personal issue is resolved. ZOS can obviously choose to ignore them, but they can only do that so much until they've used up all their credibility and trustworthiness and run out of money. At least in this case, choosing to ignore them, won't net them credibility and trust.

Ratzkifal · March 2019

[Quoted post has been reomved.]

The problem though is that something is indeed "wrecked". Sure, not everyone thinks that way. Just like Homer Simpson thought that adding "speed holes" to his car would make it faster. He didn't call it "wrecked" or "damaged" but someone else might disagree. In this analogy ZOS is Homer, the car are Bosmer, Hand_Bacon is Ned Flanders who seems to be fine with it, and we (the other people in this thread) are Marge who was probably very furious in a scene that wasn't included in the episode.
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[Quoted post has been reomved

Also this point.... Sorry, but the only reason we are playing this game is because the Elder Scrolls is a franchise that used to be known for putting heart into their games. Businesses nowadays make tons of course changes based on emotional appeal and depending on what company we are talking about, people either flock to them or run away and boycott. Look at CD Project Red for example. They had the guts to tell their investors (more or less) just that. They don't aim to milk their audience, they don't want to grab a quick cash. The key to success is an excellent product. And while we all know that ZO$ won't follow their footsteps we at least think/thought we can/could expect them to respect the franchise and its fans enough to not mess with them too much.

Hand_Bacon · March 2019

@Ratzkifal
Well, I have to hand it to for using the Simpsons. Even though you cast me as Ned.

They made something different.

Uncomfortable? Yes
Optimal for you all few in this thread? No
Broken or wrecked? No

It may be wrecked for you, for one race, and for one particular play-style for that race. If all some people play this game for is that race and play-style and can't be bothered to use temporary fixes then yes....ZOS is that clown, but you all are choosing to be Homer and unfortunately you're the one who handed him the pickax and told him to go crazy. How could you be responsible? Because you put all your ESO gaming happiness into one thing knowing full well you couldn't control what changes might take place. Adapt, object rationally, encourage others to do so and hope for the best. That's all you can do.

I'd hate for somebody new to the game who wanted the same thing out of their Bosmer as you stumble upon these forums for help. The first thread that they notice is an "open letter" appealing to ZOS about this issue. What do they learn? The learn that armor sets etc are no good, not good enough, no use trying to learn how to adapt, might as well give up now, ZOS won't care, they're evil, people in charge dress up as animals for intercourse (furries), the car has broken and the only thing people will do is hand us crappy old duct tape.

Maybe its too much responsibility to recognize, but the things you say emotionally matter more to the casual reader than to the company to which you're appealing.

Even though we don't yet have the big picture.

MartiniDaniels · March 2019

That new passive is U-S-E-L-E-S-S. I put points in it first just to see how it will play out against snares and didn't notice any difference other then very slightly increased speed when you are not snared. Two days ago i visit Father of Mysteries to reset skill points and re-spec from S&B/DW to S&B/2H and didn't put points in hunter's eye. Absolutely nothing had changed. Yeah probably if you roll-dodge with bow in senche's bite it gives some effect. But if you run standard sets and don't use bow that passive is *** trash.

BlueRaven · March 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

That new passive is U-S-E-L-E-S-S. I put points in it first just to see how it will play out against snares and didn't notice any difference other then very slightly increased speed when you are not snared. Two days ago i visit Father of Mysteries to reset skill points and re-spec from S&B/DW to S&B/2H and didn't put points in hunter's eye. Absolutely nothing had changed. Yeah probably if you roll-dodge with bow in senche's bite it gives some effect. But if you run standard sets and don't use bow that passive is *** trash.

I suspected as much. The 10% speed is not really that big a deal. I think the only time I ever even try to roll is to get that debuff off in Vet MoL.

Seriously, it really feels like the the Bosmer changes were just phoned in.

Jaraal · March 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

I refuse to carry around a low powered set of gear just so I can do the things I was accustomed to a week ago. My character is a bosmer, I chose the race because of stealth. If this was D&D she would be a heroic rogue type character, an archer that can move through the shadows. And now she is as stealthy as any other race which is stupid.

This line should actually read:

"And now she is as stealthy as seven other races, and less stealthy than two races...."

Girl_Number8 · March 2019

This is tough. I really like the new woodelf racials, as I have made several builds for different classes in PvP using the bosmer and it really is working out. I feel for the PvE players and there have been a lot of changes and some more coming. Though with the dragons coming and if the game goes full skyrim, a lot of people will be happy and a lot will leave. For PvP I really do like the new bosmer but then again I mainly PvP and min max my characters for the harder content in PvE, so I change to what I need with no attachment.

Zoltan_117 · March 2019

Nerouyn wrote: »

I'd rather racials simply be scrapped so we could play whatever race we want how we want. Like in the single player games.

But if they're going to have racials, taking the stealth bonus away from Bosmer makes ZO liars.

They claim that one of the key goals for these changes is to give players more options when selecting a race. Supposedly they don't want every player who enjoys a particular play style to feel obliged to pick one race whose passives maximise that.

By taking the stealth bonus away from Bosmer and leaving it with Khajiit they're definitely going backwards.

Maybe the solution is to also take it away from Khajiit.

THIS!

WHAT SHOULD BE DONE and is realistic is that if you are going down the stealth path, you can catch up to a Bosmer, but they should have a bonus at the start and for non stealth classes they should always have a bonus stealth, but if you are a dunmer and you dedicate yourself you should be able to equal a bosmer.

A_Silverius · March 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

THE Question: Wouldn't it be a good thing to encourage the use of "band-aids" to help people handicapped by this change, either until its changed again or at least to continue to enjoy that part of the game?

Thanks for the suggestion, but this "band-aid" solution means nothing if you were already stacking reduced stealth radius sets with the racial passive. Bosmers till screwed

A_Silverius · March 2019

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

This is tough. I really like the new woodelf racials, as I have made several builds for different classes in PvP using the bosmer and it really is working out. I feel for the PvE players and there have been a lot of changes and some more coming. Though with the dragons coming and if the game goes full skyrim, a lot of people will be happy and a lot will leave. For PvP I really do like the new bosmer but then again I mainly PvP and min max my characters for the harder content in PvE, so I change to what I need with no attachment.

Do you find the stealth detection racial passive useful in PvP?

Torbschka · March 2019

New bosmer is really strong in PvP , awesome for me.

Swergdach · March 2019

Torbschka wrote: »

New bosmer is really strong in PvP , awesome for me.

I can say for sure that this is not because new stealth detection. Anyway, PVPers never cares about game lore. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ratzkifal · March 2019

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

This is tough. I really like the new woodelf racials, as I have made several builds for different classes in PvP using the bosmer and it really is working out. I feel for the PvE players and there have been a lot of changes and some more coming. Though with the dragons coming and if the game goes full skyrim, a lot of people will be happy and a lot will leave. For PvP I really do like the new bosmer but then again I mainly PvP and min max my characters for the harder content in PvE, so I change to what I need with no attachment.

Torbschka wrote: »

New bosmer is really strong in PvP , awesome for me.

@Girl_Number8 @Torbschka But is it the detection passive that makes it so good in PvP? I can't speak for all of us, but I think most people in here would be fine if the dodgeroll thing was kept as it is but the detection was reverted to being-detected radius reduction. I've done testing on this and 3meters sounds like much, because it is IRL, but it's nothing in ESO, especially when running around. You'll also never spot cloaked enemies with this just because the radius is impossibly small (half that of Mage Light, that's 75% less reveal area and you still can't target them.)

Hand_Bacon · March 2019

Swergdach wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

New bosmer is really strong in PvP , awesome for me.

I can say for sure that this is not because new stealth detection. Anyway, PVPers never cares about game lore. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I've had the stealth detection work in my favor although sparingly. I really wish it would be the same as magelight. I wouldn't necessarily say ALL pvp'ers don't care about lore, but I get what you're saying.

Alucardmike · March 2019

"Insert crying Bosmer"

Khipu · March 2019

"Insert another crying Bosmer"

Cundu_Ertur · March 2019

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

This is tough. I really like the new woodelf racials, as I have made several builds for different classes in PvP using the bosmer and it really is working out. I feel for the PvE players and there have been a lot of changes and some more coming. Though with the dragons coming and if the game goes full skyrim, a lot of people will be happy and a lot will leave. For PvP I really do like the new bosmer but then again I mainly PvP and min max my characters for the harder content in PvE, so I change to what I need with no attachment.

The stamina change was great, it was a straight buff. The regen is about the same, maybe a bit better maybe a bit worse, depending on the exact build, I think. But what possible use have you had for Hunter's Eye? If you take your current build and take the 3 points out of Hunter's Eye, do you even notice the difference?

Tigerseye · March 2019

Couldn't steal some decorative wax from a barrel in Murkmire today, without being seen; when I could normally steal from that barrel, before (albeit, with some difficulty).

Also, haven't seen one other Bosmer, today - not one.

ETA: Finally saw my first one, just now.

Wood Elves were never popular before, but they are now a total rarity.

Tigerseye · March 2019

You know what would be nice?

If both Bosmer and Khajiit could choose whether they wanted increased stealth, or increased stealth detection.

Cundu_Ertur · March 2019

Event tickets are tied to Heists this week. Looks like I need to brew up a bunch of invisibility + magicka buff pots (for NB cloak spamming).

Ratzkifal · March 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Event tickets are tied to Heists this week. Looks like I need to brew up a bunch of invisibility + magicka buff pots (for NB cloak spamming).

I'll do it on both my Khajiit and my Bosmer and then compare. I'll probably end up being able to do it undetected on both, but I am certain I'll be done with it way faster on my Khajiit (without using cloak).