Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

anadandy

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

So as for now all we can do is continue to run 'Bosmer cornerclub' in this thread and maybe ZOS will see it when there will be 200 pages or similar

Ha, Bosmer cornerclub - I love it.

The interesting thing is some devs at ZOS are capable of responding and communicating. Just look at what Finn did in the thread about the dungeon changes. Explained exactly why they did what they did - i.e. looked at completion numbers and adjusted the mechanics based on those numbers. Sure, it may not be the answer people wanted but at least it was an answer and one that made sense. It wasn't "oh Dungeons looked like street cars, so we made everything work like a streetcar" or some other nonsense.

How hard is that? How hard is it to say "Hey yeah, we know stealth detection is a useless piece of crap in PVE but there are future game updates that will change this" - or something. Not asking for them to spill some big secret - but the non-acknowledgment just makes it look like someone effed up and is now just too embarrassed to back down.

Jaraal

There is no big secret, though. It’s very clear that they are forcing more people to play Khajiits to sell more of the upcoming Khajiit chapter. It’s the only logical explanation for them reducing stealh play to one race.

Hand_Bacon

@Jaraal

How does it mean that? Did argonians only play Murkmire, did dunmer and argonians only play morrowind, etc?

I widely held conspiracy theory does not make it a badly kept secret.

I think they may have made the khajiits more attractive to other non stealth players by increasing other stats. I see it as a change so that if they want to play it with a khajiit they have more options.

wedgebert

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@Jaraal
I think they may have made the khajiits more attractive to other non stealth players by increasing other stats though so that if they want to play it with a khajiit they have more options.

You say that, but I see more complaints about their changes than I do saying it made the race more fun.

Overall I see a lot more complaints about the racial changes when it comes to play styles than I do people saying it helped. The min/maxers are all happy because they mostly don't care and will switch to whatever's best.

But it seems that people who choose their race for other reasons tend to be unhappy or at least lukewarm.

Hand_Bacon

wedgebert wrote: »

You say that, but I see more complaints about their changes than I do saying it made the race more fun.

Overall I see a lot more complaints about the racial changes when it comes to play styles than I do people saying it helped. The min/maxers are all happy because they mostly don't care and will switch to whatever's best.

But it seems that people who choose their race for other reasons tend to be unhappy or at least lukewarm.

Its generally true that people don't like change to begin with, so there is that, especially changing something thats been around awhile. People are also more likely to complain than they are to say they are okay with something or like something. I forget the actual statistical ratio. Then there is the proclivity to show empathy to those in their various circles, so that a neutral or positive can turn into a nod of likewise belief or at least support. People will actually avoid telling people the truth in fear of "appearing" to hurt somebody's feelings.

"Min/maxers" or better referred to as most competitively competent for certain content. Taking the vast amount of content in the game, I'm glad they are happy as not much is geared towards them.

We don't know the whole story of how these changes will play out and it will be interesting to see.

Swergdach

wedgebert wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@Jaraal
I think they may have made the khajiits more attractive to other non stealth players by increasing other stats though so that if they want to play it with a khajiit they have more options.

You say that, but I see more complaints about their changes than I do saying it made the race more fun.

Overall I see a lot more complaints about the racial changes when it comes to play styles than I do people saying it helped. The min/maxers are all happy because they mostly don't care and will switch to whatever's best.

But it seems that people who choose their race for other reasons tend to be unhappy or at least lukewarm.

Most of people cares only dps/sustain/survibility/effectivness in PVE and PVP. They do not see a big deal to playstyle/racial identety/RP. And they most likely can easely change the race to play with same effectiveness that they like.
Minority of people, who do not want to change their race and their playstyle, still can complains in hoping of revert changing. And if it's not happening, they are either leave the game either play less/submit to changes. But they are never turn to acception of changes that throw away things what they cares.
P.S. And if someone say nonsence that people usually avoid to telling people truth in fear to hurt someone in internet, don't listen, it's a lie. People lie or don't tells the truth only for their own interests. Local forum's trolls do that, for example. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

max_only

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Now I am willing to let the stealthiness originate in a form of a skill tree OUTSIDE of their racials, but that's where I am drawing the line.

I'd honestly draw the line even sooner. No Bosmer stealth racials? No money for ZO$ from me. But I'm probably easier to please when it comes to what kind of stealth buff to give them.

How would you feel if the fall bonus was taken away and replaced with stealth radius reduction instead?

Jaraal

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@Jaraal
How does it mean that? Did argonians only play Murkmire, did dunmer and argonians only play morrowind, etc?

Well, you certainly like to argue a lot. But that's good, keep bumping the thread!


(Oh, and Murkmire was free. They had no financial motivation to change established lore to sell the DLC.)

Swergdach

Jaraal wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@Jaraal
How does it mean that? Did argonians only play Murkmire, did dunmer and argonians only play morrowind, etc?

Well, you certainly like to argue a lot. But that's good, keep bumping the thread!


(Oh, and Murkmire was free. They had no financial motivation to change established lore to sell the DLC.)

And Morrowind did not need such low blow as increasing the attractiveness of one race to the detriment of another. Hell, it's Morrowind, a classic pearl of the series. A lot of people waited for it for a long time. In addition, it is not known what reaction Lawrence Schick would have had if they had proposed such changes at the time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Razorback174

@ZOS_LeamonTuttle

Would it be possible to get the new loremaster's opinion on this situation?

Cundu_Ertur

max_only wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Now I am willing to let the stealthiness originate in a form of a skill tree OUTSIDE of their racials, but that's where I am drawing the line.

I'd honestly draw the line even sooner. No Bosmer stealth racials? No money for ZO$ from me. But I'm probably easier to please when it comes to what kind of stealth buff to give them.

How would you feel if the fall bonus was taken away and replaced with stealth radius reduction instead?

I'm not Ratzkifal, but I'd be ok with that.

wedgebert

max_only wrote: »

I'd honestly draw the line even sooner. No Bosmer stealth racials? No money for ZO$ from me. But I'm probably easier to please when it comes to what kind of stealth buff to give them.

How would you feel if the fall bonus was taken away and replaced with stealth radius reduction instead?
[/quote]

I'd be fine with that. The fall bonus is a nice quality of life thing, but until ESO I didn't even realize it would be a racial power. And if I did, I would have assumed it would be a Khajiit (cat) thing.

Then again, I also would have assumed a bonus to dodge-rolling (acrobatics) would also be a Khajiit thing since that was always their top skill until it no longer existed.

Same with better stealth detection since Khajiit always had bonuses to vision (Night Eye).

Jaraal

wedgebert wrote: »

I'd be fine with that. The fall bonus is a nice quality of life thing, but until ESO I didn't even realize it would be a racial power. And if I did, I would have assumed it would be a Khajiit (cat) thing.

Then again, I also would have assumed a bonus to dodge-rolling (acrobatics) would also be a Khajiit thing since that was always their top skill until it no longer existed.

Same with better stealth detection since Khajiit always had bonuses to vision (Night Eye).

Stop it! Just...... stop making sense!

Ashryn

I would be extremely unhappy if they took away the fall bonus. I rely on that quite a bit as I take my unusual paths around when I am exploring or farming. On the other hand...take away that useless stealth detection bonus!

Swergdach

wedgebert wrote: »

I'd be fine with that. The fall bonus is a nice quality of life thing, but until ESO I didn't even realize it would be a racial power. And if I did, I would have assumed it would be a Khajiit (cat) thing.

Then again, I also would have assumed a bonus to dodge-rolling (acrobatics) would also be a Khajiit thing since that was always their top skill until it no longer existed.

Same with better stealth detection since Khajiit always had bonuses to vision (Night Eye).

Acrobatics make sence but NOT the stealth detection. It's just ridiculous to make Bosmer a sentinel. youtu.be/cd4POiGGP3c

anadandy

Yeah, I fall off enough cliffs in Wrothgar that I'd really miss that fall damage buff

wedgebert

Swergdach wrote: »

Acrobatics make sence but NOT the stealth detection. It's just ridiculous to make Bosmer a sentinel. youtu.be/cd4POiGGP3c

Acrobatics makes sense in the same way letting Khajiit be the stealthy race makes sense. Yes, Bosmer are agile and Khajiit are stealthy, but Bomser are more known for stealth and Khajiit more known for agility.

It's not that it's completely unjustified, it's just that we're taking some of each race's best traits and giving them to the other race.

BlueRaven

I feel the fall damage reduction made a lot of sense for a race that primarily lived in trees.

wedgebert

BlueRaven wrote: »

I feel the fall damage reduction made a lot of sense for a race that primarily lived in trees.

Especially if they spend their time rolling in trees?

Just did my first "stealth" since the patch and I have to say it feels terrible. I guess I have to go get some sets together because I must have rolled out of a really big tree onto my head and forgot to not say "hi" to everyone I'm trying to sneak by.

Jaraal

wedgebert wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I feel the fall damage reduction made a lot of sense for a race that primarily lived in trees.

Especially if they spend their time rolling in trees?

Just did my first "stealth" since the patch and I have to say it feels terrible. I guess I have to go get some sets together because I must have rolled out of a really big tree onto my head and forgot to not say "hi" to everyone I'm trying to sneak by.

Yeah, I dusted off one of my younger Khajiit thieves yesterday (I have four), and started stealing and picking pockets, and he kept getting caught, just like my Bosmer thief since the patch. I thought, "What the heck.... am I doing something wrong here? Did Khajiit get a stealth nerf, too?" And then it occurred to me that I had yet to re-spend the refunded racials on this character!

A_Silverius

wedgebert wrote: »

Just did my first "stealth" since the patch and I have to say it feels terrible. I guess I have to go get some sets together because I must have rolled out of a really big tree onto my head and forgot to not say "hi" to everyone I'm trying to sneak by.

Its worse when you get caught between one of those lantern guys and one of the npcs and you get caught, you get removed from stealth, you take a penalty to the time limit and a hefty bounty. With that 3m stealth, bosmers could easily pass by without notice in tight corridors.

Cundu_Ertur

Razorback174 wrote: »

@ZOS_LeamonTuttle

Would it be possible to get the new loremaster's opinion on this situation?

Apparently it would not.

Jaraal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

@ZOS_LeamonTuttle

Would it be possible to get the new loremaster's opinion on this situation?

Apparently it would not.

Well, he's certainly not going to come in here and agree with us, say his employer made a mistake, etc. He will either <remain silent>, or will support the changes.

The employer is always right!

Ratzkifal

max_only wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Now I am willing to let the stealthiness originate in a form of a skill tree OUTSIDE of their racials, but that's where I am drawing the line.

I'd honestly draw the line even sooner. No Bosmer stealth racials? No money for ZO$ from me. But I'm probably easier to please when it comes to what kind of stealth buff to give them.

How would you feel if the fall bonus was taken away and replaced with stealth radius reduction instead?

It would probably be a little bit overpowered as a "flavor racial" like the environmental lava damage reduction, swim speed increase etc.
I do like the fall damage reduction because you would expect a race of people living in trees to know how to slow down and safely fall. But I also think that Bosmer are probably better at not falling in the first place than other races.

That being said, if the new detection replaced the 10% fall damage reduction and the old detection radius reduction went into what's now hunter's eye, then I would be happy. However I'm pretty sure there are at least some people out there that like the fall damage reduction just as much as the stealthiness (even though I am not one of them).

Everstorm

27 pages, 1 unrelated staff comment.

I just love being taken seriously as a paying customer.

Night_Wolf2112

Everstorm wrote: »

27 pages, 1 unrelated staff comment.

I just love being taken seriously as a paying customer.

They dont care about you or your opinion.... they care about their bottom line, $$$!

The customer is not always right when it comes to software/game developers... it not your vision, it's thiers. Get on board or hit them in the pocket book.

wedgebert

Ratzkifal wrote: »

That being said, if the new detection replaced the 10% fall damage reduction and the old detection radius reduction went into what's now hunter's eye, then I would be happy. However I'm pretty sure there are at least some people out there that like the fall damage reduction just as much as the stealthiness (even though I am not one of them).

I like the fall damage reduction, but it's not a defining character trait to me. I doubt anyone was making a character with the concept of "I'll fall of slightly higher things than everyone else"

And it's still more of a Khajiit trait anyways. They're the ones who always had a bonus to acrobatics which is the skill that reduced fall damage.

Razorback174

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

Everstorm wrote: »

27 pages, 1 unrelated staff comment.

I just love being taken seriously as a paying customer.

They dont care about you or your opinion.... they care about their bottom line, $$$!

The customer is not always right when it comes to software/game developers... it not your vision, it's thiers. Get on board or hit them in the pocket book.

And this is exactly why I'm stepping away from this game.

Balance is one thing, but pushing through lore-shattering racial changes in this manner is another. If they can't even get that right, I have no faith in them anymore. The lore was what built this series. If that gets tossed aside (and it's arguable that it has with this "racial rebalance"), there's no point investing time or money in this game anymore. It just becomes another bland MMO.

If they can't even get the fundamentals like basic racial bonuses correct, who knows what other sorts of lore they will decide change on a whim? Hell, with this sort of mindset, they could make Orcs a magic race overnight, and be selling flying dragon mounts in the crown store by Christmas.

Jaraal

Razorback174 wrote: »

Balance is one thing, but pushing through lore-shattering racial changes in this manner is another. If they can't even get that right, I have no faith in them anymore. The lore was what built this series.

It does seem like they are pushing away the RPers and Elder Scrolls fans away and just trying to make another Half Life2 Deathmatch type of free -for-all PvP game. And they are even nerfing solo and small squad play by discouraging ball groups and killing player speed. It's like they are trying to turn the game into one big PvP rugby scrum snarefest.... all in the interest of reducing server calculations as a way to counter the ever-increasing lag.

Curious that they would be willing to lose players over stuff like this. The forum polls show that the vast majority are against the lore breaking changes: removing stealth from Bosmer, poison resistance from Argonians, fire bonus from Dunmer, etc. And they've known about the backlash since PTS, but still insist on doing the unpopular things anyway. It's not like those things were gamebreakingly overpowered.... so who really knows? And we forum frequenters are but a small percentage of the people who play this game. We can discuss and try to understand these changes, but what about the person who just logs into the game one day and sees "Your racial passive skill points have been refunded" and wonders what the heck is going on?

It's mind-boggling!

FrancisCrawford

A_Silverius wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Just did my first "stealth" since the patch and I have to say it feels terrible. I guess I have to go get some sets together because I must have rolled out of a really big tree onto my head and forgot to not say "hi" to everyone I'm trying to sneak by.

Its worse when you get caught between one of those lantern guys and one of the npcs and you get caught, you get removed from stealth, you take a penalty to the time limit and a hefty bounty. With that 3m stealth, bosmers could easily pass by without notice in tight corridors.

I'm finding heists and sacraments on my Bosmer to be completely not fun. I'm going to either change him to a Khajit or just stop doing event stuff.