Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Seraphayel

A_Silverius wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

No thanks, I'll take back my stealth thank you very much. A Bosmer without stealth is a Bosmer doom to be a Guard with an arrow in its knee.

Okay...

Until then, I guess...happy misery?

Until then, we give feedback until its fixed that's what.

Well then I hope you all have a very long breath to do this for months or even years. ZOS is very adamant when it comes about changes they settled with and Bosmer losing their Stealth racial seems like one. If you're clever you expect exactly nothing to happen in that regard (based on 5 years experience with ZOS).

BlueRaven

max_only wrote: »

“But you can wear glyphs if you want to role play as poison resistant.” Is what forum dwellers would say if you pointed this out to them.

I agree and as I’ve said, they should have given stealth radius reduction to more races, Argonian and Dunmer need it too.

I think this argument of "Just wear an armor set!" is just really disingenuous. At that point what have any racials? We can just do "Build-A-Race" through armor sets.
The lore (and that includes racials) is what brings the depth to this and other ES games.

Hand_Bacon

BlueRaven wrote: »

I think this argument of "Just wear an armor set!" is just really disingenuous.

Disingenuous? I made that suggestion and was sincere. For now, if you want that ability, what else can you do?

Ratzkifal

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I think this argument of "Just wear an armor set!" is just really disingenuous.

Disingenuous? I made that suggestion and was sincere. For now, if you want that ability, what else can you do?

You are right, for now there is nothing else you can do, but that is being very dismissive about the problem at hand. That is what is meant by disingenuous. If you are playing a race that has a natural resistance to poison, you should not need to wear gear against poison to have that resistance. If these things can only be expressed by wearing the right gear, racial passives have no raison d'être. They would just be arbitrary buffs and if you want arbitrary buffs, then there is no reason to tie them to races at all.

BlueRaven

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I think this argument of "Just wear an armor set!" is just really disingenuous.

Disingenuous? I made that suggestion and was sincere. For now, if you want that ability, what else can you do?

What else can we do? Well we can keep pestering them until they fix the mess they made for starters.

I am running a full set of Arms Of Relequen and (unfortunately) Night Mother's Gaze (I am missing two pieces of Berserking and we rarely do Hel Ra anymore). And except for some jewelry they are mostly gold, properly enchanted and with the proper traits.

I refuse to carry around a low powered set of gear just so I can do the things I was accustomed to a week ago. My character is a bosmer, I chose the race because of stealth. If this was D&D she would be a heroic rogue type character, an archer that can move through the shadows. And now she is as stealthy as any other race which is stupid.

It's disingenuous because the answer is just a hand wave that avoids the core issue.

"You crushed the fender of my car!"
"Duct tape will fix it. So whats the problem?"

Saying make some gear is just a duct tape solution to the issue at hand. The issue being that Bosmers ARE stealthy and they should be more stealthy than most other races WITHOUT the need for special armor.

Now I am willing to let the stealthiness originate in a form of a skill tree OUTSIDE of their racials, but that's where I am drawing the line.
Bosmer's aren't stealthy because they all make their gear at the same crafting station, they are stealthy because that's how their race operates.

In Coldharbor, the player runs across a group of Wood Elves that seem to vanish and reappear at will amongst the trees there. That is what Bosmers should be like.

Sylvermynx

BlueRaven wrote: »

<snip>

In Coldharbor, the player runs across a group of Wood Elves that seem to vanish and reappear at will amongst the trees there. That is what Bosmers should be like.

Yeah. I thought I'd lost my mind, was seeing things that weren't there, was having some sort of "episode" (not drugs damn it! - age.... like y'know I'm 71 so....)

I finally figured them out. But it was damn creepy.

Ratzkifal

BlueRaven wrote: »

Now I am willing to let the stealthiness originate in a form of a skill tree OUTSIDE of their racials, but that's where I am drawing the line.

I'd honestly draw the line even sooner. No Bosmer stealth racials? No money for ZO$ from me. But I'm probably easier to please when it comes to what kind of stealth buff to give them.

Hand_Bacon

@BlueRaven

A better analogy would be...

"I've got a flesh wound, guess I'll go ahead and cut my legs off, that'll show 'em"

or

"My leg is bleeding badly, but I won't put on that tourniquet!

BlueRaven

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Now I am willing to let the stealthiness originate in a form of a skill tree OUTSIDE of their racials, but that's where I am drawing the line.

I'd honestly draw the line even sooner. No Bosmer stealth racials? No money for ZO$ from me. But I'm probably easier to please when it comes to what kind of stealth buff to give them.

I understand and respect that stand. Personally, I would also prefer it to be a pure racial, but I just want the stealth on some skill tree SOMEWHERE at this point.

Wildbloom

My guess at this point is, they hear our feedback and intend to do something. It will likely be something we're not tossing around. My guess is an extension of legerdemian that would give us the same stealth we had before back, only everyone else can get it too. But that still means that bosmer are equal to most other races as far as their stealth goes...BUT if they let us trait into stealth via new traits enough, we'll be more than good enough at it without the need for a racial and they can keep the "invis peeking" racial we've been given to "keep them lore-friendly".

Would it be ideal? It depends on what kind of traits they toss in, if any. We could end up sneakier than before, along with everyone else, which I think would be great. We have 2 DLCs revolving around sneaking and right now we only have 1 race that can do it super well. They could fix this with Elswyr.

Pickpocketing all 3 items at once, better stealth, faster in stealth, things like that would make the sneakthief gameplay a lot more fun and accessible for those of us that are willing to dump about 15 more skill points into it.


Or they can leave stealth as-is and and only the flavor-of-the-month race (khajit) would be happy, which would not be so good.

Ratzkifal

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@BlueRaven

A better analogy would be...

"I've got a flesh wound, guess I'll go ahead and cut my legs off, that'll show 'em"

or

"My leg is bleeding badly, but I won't put on that tourniquet!

No sorry, that's a terrible analogy and it is missing the point entirely. I'm not saying his was better, but it came definitely closer.

Hand_Bacon

Ratzkifal wrote: »

No sorry, that's a terrible analogy and it is missing the point entirely. I'm not saying his was better, but it came definitely closer.

You've put forth a very well thought out and organized objection.

The problem with rejecting help like armor sets because its not what an individual may prefer, even in the short term undermines all your work.

Its important to have integrity and appear rational, even if the changes drive you crazy.

1. People have claimed that the stealth bonus is very important to them and what they do in PvE.
2. Some people claim this is why they rolled a Bosmer. Once again very important aspect of the game to them.
3. The change doesn't help them at all as the stealth bonus is what really helped them.
4. The change has been made, for now at least, maybe forever.

THE Question: Wouldn't it be a good thing to encourage the use of "band-aids" to help people handicapped by this change, either until its changed again or at least to continue to enjoy that part of the game?

One answer is rational and the other is not.

Ratzkifal

Gibgarde wrote: »

My guess at this point is, they hear our feedback and intend to do something. It will likely be something we're not tossing around. My guess is an extension of legerdemian that would give us the same stealth we had before back, only everyone else can get it too. But that still means that bosmer are equal to most other races as far as their stealth goes...BUT if they let us trait into stealth via new traits enough, we'll be more than good enough at it without the need for a racial and they can keep the "invis peeking" racial we've been given to "keep them lore-friendly".

Would it be ideal? It depends on what kind of traits they toss in, if any. We could end up sneakier than before, along with everyone else, which I think would be great. We have 2 DLCs revolving around sneaking and right now we only have 1 race that can do it super well. They could fix this with Elswyr.

Pickpocketing all 3 items at once, better stealth, faster in stealth, things like that would make the sneakthief gameplay a lot more fun and accessible for those of us that are willing to dump about 15 more skill points into it.


Or they can leave stealth as-is and and only the flavor-of-the-month race (khajit) would be happy, which would not be so good.

I think you are right, but I hope you are not. I wouldn't like a system like that. The races need to distinguish themselves from each other. Giving everyone access to the same buffs won't help that. Bosmer are better sneak thieves than Altmer, Bretons, Imperials, Nords, Orcs and Redguards any if the racial passives don't support that, then they aren't accurate. And if they aren't accurate, then they are pretty pointless. I'd rather have a "choose your destiny" at the start instead of racials than inaccurate racials and a public domain systems to make everyone equally unspecial.

BlueRaven

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@BlueRaven

A better analogy would be...

"I've got a flesh wound, guess I'll go ahead and cut my legs off, that'll show 'em"

or

"My leg is bleeding badly, but I won't put on that tourniquet!

No sorry, that's a terrible analogy and it is missing the point entirely. I'm not saying his was better, but it came definitely closer.

The analogy I was going for was if an outside force negatively impacts you (crashes into your car) you expect them to come up with a better solution then "fix it yourself" in the cheapest way possible.

Zos hinted at systems etc. for stealth, I want to know what they are talking about. A "we'll fix your car later" response, I want to see them pony up a solution.

Hand_Bacon

BlueRaven wrote: »

The analogy I was going for was if an outside force negatively impacts you (crashes into your car) you expect them to come up with a better solution then "fix it yourself" in the cheapest way possible.

I can understand that, but its ZoS car that you're driving. They made a change to their car that you don't like. At least there are options to adjust things back closer to what you like.

I don't see ZOS as one who's going to pony up a solution because they don't see it as a problem rather a step in their planned direction.

BlueRaven

@max_only has another thread going on about showing screenshots of your Imperials and with all this talk about gear etc I suddenly felt the urge to share a screenshot of my bosmer.



Carry on. I just wanted to get it out of my system.

Sylvermynx

Well.... @Hand_Bacon - that might depend on how deep a Bosmer player is involved in lore and RP. I repeat, I'm not doing sneaky with my Bosmer, so this isn't an issue for me. But for those who've always played sneak thieves with Bosmer ever since TES started?

It's a major issue. It isn't going to make them happy with a "bandaid".

Now, I did play sneaky archers in Skyrim (because of an OP bow etc. from a mod) but it's the only one of the SPMR games where I did so. And I did so after the bajillionth time playing Skyrim because I was SO TIRED of the whole combat thing. I get.... grumpy.... about having to kill my way through a game to advance, always have. That's not changing from game to game, so I'm not about to get less grumpy either. My RP prefs tend toward diplomacy, kindness, and sweetness and light. Yeah yeah, no need to rag on me about it. I don't get games that provide those.... because there aren't any.

So I deal with combat. In a SPMR game like Skyrim, I "fix" that with mods. In this game, I do what I can (difficult though it is due to 2000 ms+ ping), and stuff I can't do for that reason, I don't do. I love the game - exploring, crafting, doing side quests where I don't die umpty times to a mini-boss who's actually harder in some cases than the end boss.

If I was so invested in sneaky thief, for a while I personally would go the armor route etc. But eventually.... I'd probably just leave the game. No, I don't do sneak on my girls. But if I did, and it didn't get fixed (without bandaids!) very shortly, I'd be gone.

BlueRaven

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

The analogy I was going for was if an outside force negatively impacts you (crashes into your car) you expect them to come up with a better solution then "fix it yourself" in the cheapest way possible.

I can understand that, but its ZoS car that you're driving. They made a change to their car that you don't like. At least there are options to adjust things back closer to what you like.

I don't see ZOS as one who's going to pony up a solution because they don't see it as a problem rather a step in their planned direction.

So what is the proper analogy for you?

I am leasing a sports car from ZoS and I come down one day to find they swapped out my sportscar for a SUV? Are we really going to spend all this time on this analogy?

We all know exactly what I meant. Zos screwed up Bosmer gameplay, and I am not going to put my character in worse gear just as fix and go whistling into the night as if nothing is wrong.

Hand_Bacon

@Sylvermynx

I completely understand that, but the point about band-aids is at least encouraging their use so people don't have to abandon their beloved characters in the short term.

Sylvermynx

@BlueRaven - well.... actually I drive my full-size F250 diesel exactly as I drove my 240Z when I still had one (before we moved up here and had snow - lots of it - most winters.... can't really use a sports car in the snow....) The biggest issue I have with the truck is it's not a manual unlike the '95 diesel that burned up three years ago January.

So.... yep. I guess you can call me a danger to the unsuspecting.... but I'm a really good driver, so it's not a big deal.

But yes, ZOS screwed the pooch on this one, and they're simply not willing to admit yet that they also bought the farm. I'm hopeful that eventually someone will sit on those to whom only pvp is viable.... but I'm also not holding my breath.

Eiron77

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I think this argument of "Just wear an armor set!" is just really disingenuous.

Disingenuous? I made that suggestion and was sincere. For now, if you want that ability, what else can you do?

What else can we do? Well we can keep pestering them until they fix the mess they made for starters.

I am running a full set of Arms Of Relequen and (unfortunately) Night Mother's Gaze (I am missing two pieces of Berserking and we rarely do Hel Ra anymore). And except for some jewelry they are mostly gold, properly enchanted and with the proper traits.

I refuse to carry around a low powered set of gear just so I can do the things I was accustomed to a week ago. My character is a bosmer, I chose the race because of stealth. If this was D&D she would be a heroic rogue type character, an archer that can move through the shadows. And now she is as stealthy as any other race which is stupid.

It's disingenuous because the answer is just a hand wave that avoids the core issue.

"You crushed the fender of my car!"
"Duct tape will fix it. So whats the problem?"

Saying make some gear is just a duct tape solution to the issue at hand. The issue being that Bosmers ARE stealthy and they should be more stealthy than most other races WITHOUT the need for special armor.

Now I am willing to let the stealthiness originate in a form of a skill tree OUTSIDE of their racials, but that's where I am drawing the line.
Bosmer's aren't stealthy because they all make their gear at the same crafting station, they are stealthy because that's how their race operates.

In Coldharbor, the player runs across a group of Wood Elves that seem to vanish and reappear at will amongst the trees there. That is what Bosmers should be like.

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@BlueRaven

A better analogy would be...

"I've got a flesh wound, guess I'll go ahead and cut my legs off, that'll show 'em"

or

"My leg is bleeding badly, but I won't put on that tourniquet!

No. @BlueRaven 's analogy was on point.

This thread is voicing customer dissatisfaction with a product--like a car. The presented "solution" in the context of the analogy (and in this thread), for the problem with the product, is not satisfactory. It does not address the actual issues/complaints brought up in the thread and instead trivializes the concern.

This is not a life or death situation requiring a tourniquet. But sure. Let's twist it around to make his reasoning akin to a drama-queen. That's helpful.

Hand_Bacon

Eiron77 wrote: »

This is not a life or death situation requiring a tourniquet. But sure. Let's twist it around to make his reasoning akin to a drama-queen. That's helpful.

Who is twisting? I'm not normalizing the throwing of the baby out with the bath water.

If this is truly your objection than perhaps you should read my follow up about it being ZOS's car and the perspective of the analogy being off from the beginning? It may feel like its yours, but just because you rent it for a long time doesn't make it yours.

Hand_Bacon

BlueRaven wrote: »

I am leasing a sports car from ZoS and I come down one day to find they swapped out my sportscar for a SUV? Are we really going to spend all this time on this analogy?

You brought it up. Perspective is important. They didn't swap anything, same car, different seat maybe.

EDIT: At least there are cushions you can use so your backside doesn't hurt so much for the moment.

Ratzkifal

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

No sorry, that's a terrible analogy and it is missing the point entirely. I'm not saying his was better, but it came definitely closer.

You've put forth a very well thought out and organized objection.

The problem with rejecting help like armor sets because its not what an individual may prefer, even in the short term undermines all your work.

Its important to have integrity and appear rational, even if the changes drive you crazy.

1. People have claimed that the stealth bonus is very important to them and what they do in PvE.
2. Some people claim this is why they rolled a Bosmer. Once again very important aspect of the game to them.
3. The change doesn't help them at all as the stealth bonus is what really helped them.
4. The change has been made, for now at least, maybe forever.

THE Question: Wouldn't it be a good thing to encourage the use of "band-aids" to help people handicapped by this change, either until its changed again or at least to continue to enjoy that part of the game?

One answer is rational and the other is not.

And while that may be a rational decision, the way you presented it thus far was completely tactless. It's obvious that this is the only thing we can do now on short term to improve thieving gameplay, but that is nothing anyone of us wants to hear. We know that already. Some of us are even doing that while grinding their teeth. But while a bandaid might stop the bleeding, it does not still the pain.
Before Bosmer were BiS for anything, the choice of making a Bosmer was a personal one and with their latest update, ZOS messed with this choice, creating a personal issue. Some people are affected, others are not and some others are truly disheartened and saddened to the point that they refuse to put their trust (aka money) into ZOS until this personal issue is resolved. ZOS can obviously choose to ignore them, but they can only do that so much until they've used up all their credibility and trustworthiness and run out of money. At least in this case, choosing to ignore them, won't net them credibility and trust.

Eiron77

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

This is not a life or death situation requiring a tourniquet. But sure. Let's twist it around to make his reasoning akin to a drama-queen. That's helpful.

Who is twisting? I'm not normalizing the throwing of the baby out with the bath water.

If this is truly your objection than perhaps you should read my follow up about it being ZOS's car and the perspective of the analogy being off from the beginning? It may feel like its yours, but just because you rent it for a long time doesn't make it yours.

He rejected your proposal with a very reasonable argument. You then compared his argument for rejecting your solution to cutting his own legs off for getting a flesh wound or refusing a tourniquet when he's bleeding out. That's twisting and you did it.

Now, I see your follow-up that was posted as I was posting. I disagree with it but I'm not going twist it into some extreme that is blowing your point way out into people going postal or something.

Let's try to keep this a reasonable discussion. I'm one to always welcome dissent from my arguments and opinions, but not when it devolves into trivializing each other's arguments into absurdities.

Ratzkifal

[Quoted post has been reomved.]

The problem though is that something is indeed "wrecked". Sure, not everyone thinks that way. Just like Homer Simpson thought that adding "speed holes" to his car would make it faster. He didn't call it "wrecked" or "damaged" but someone else might disagree. In this analogy ZOS is Homer, the car are Bosmer, Hand_Bacon is Ned Flanders who seems to be fine with it, and we (the other people in this thread) are Marge who was probably very furious in a scene that wasn't included in the episode.

[Quoted post has been reomved

Also this point.... Sorry, but the only reason we are playing this game is because the Elder Scrolls is a franchise that used to be known for putting heart into their games. Businesses nowadays make tons of course changes based on emotional appeal and depending on what company we are talking about, people either flock to them or run away and boycott. Look at CD Project Red for example. They had the guts to tell their investors (more or less) just that. They don't aim to milk their audience, they don't want to grab a quick cash. The key to success is an excellent product. And while we all know that ZO$ won't follow their footsteps we at least think/thought we can/could expect them to respect the franchise and its fans enough to not mess with them too much.

Hand_Bacon

@Ratzkifal
Well, I have to hand it to for using the Simpsons. Even though you cast me as Ned.

They made something different.

Uncomfortable? Yes
Optimal for you all few in this thread? No
Broken or wrecked? No

It may be wrecked for you, for one race, and for one particular play-style for that race. If all some people play this game for is that race and play-style and can't be bothered to use temporary fixes then yes....ZOS is that clown, but you all are choosing to be Homer and unfortunately you're the one who handed him the pickax and told him to go crazy. How could you be responsible? Because you put all your ESO gaming happiness into one thing knowing full well you couldn't control what changes might take place. Adapt, object rationally, encourage others to do so and hope for the best. That's all you can do.

I'd hate for somebody new to the game who wanted the same thing out of their Bosmer as you stumble upon these forums for help. The first thread that they notice is an "open letter" appealing to ZOS about this issue. What do they learn? The learn that armor sets etc are no good, not good enough, no use trying to learn how to adapt, might as well give up now, ZOS won't care, they're evil, people in charge dress up as animals for intercourse (furries), the car has broken and the only thing people will do is hand us crappy old duct tape.

Maybe its too much responsibility to recognize, but the things you say emotionally matter more to the casual reader than to the company to which you're appealing.



Even though we don't yet have the big picture.

MartiniDaniels

That new passive is U-S-E-L-E-S-S. I put points in it first just to see how it will play out against snares and didn't notice any difference other then very slightly increased speed when you are not snared. Two days ago i visit Father of Mysteries to reset skill points and re-spec from S&B/DW to S&B/2H and didn't put points in hunter's eye. Absolutely nothing had changed. Yeah probably if you roll-dodge with bow in senche's bite it gives some effect. But if you run standard sets and don't use bow that passive is *** trash.

BlueRaven

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

That new passive is U-S-E-L-E-S-S. I put points in it first just to see how it will play out against snares and didn't notice any difference other then very slightly increased speed when you are not snared. Two days ago i visit Father of Mysteries to reset skill points and re-spec from S&B/DW to S&B/2H and didn't put points in hunter's eye. Absolutely nothing had changed. Yeah probably if you roll-dodge with bow in senche's bite it gives some effect. But if you run standard sets and don't use bow that passive is *** trash.

I suspected as much. The 10% speed is not really that big a deal. I think the only time I ever even try to roll is to get that debuff off in Vet MoL.

Seriously, it really feels like the the Bosmer changes were just phoned in.

Jaraal

BlueRaven wrote: »

I refuse to carry around a low powered set of gear just so I can do the things I was accustomed to a week ago. My character is a bosmer, I chose the race because of stealth. If this was D&D she would be a heroic rogue type character, an archer that can move through the shadows. And now she is as stealthy as any other race which is stupid.

This line should actually read:

"And now she is as stealthy as seven other races, and less stealthy than two races...."