Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

MartiniDaniels

BlueRaven wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

So I had a depressing trial run last night.

(Background first: Our guild (and its sister guild) are primarily trading guilds that do social activities on the side. We also have housing contests, wb nights, trivia, and we have several trial groups.

One of the trial groups is a more experienced group. We do hard modes (CR+3 norm, etc) and vet trials.

We took a week off because of the weapon swapping issue and last night was our first time we all met up since the patch.)

Well my Bosmer became a big topic of conversation last night mostly because, well, she is still a Bosmer.

I had to sit through, well;
“Aren’t they a PvP race now?”
“Well I changed my Bosmer to...”
“Are bosmers BiS for anything PvE related?”
And “I am surprised you did not switch, want me to link you some sites so you can see what options you have?”

And then the conversation turned to stealth because we are a trading guild and a lot of people get their income via stealing.

So then the conversation became;
“I made my thief a kahjit.”
And how apparently there is now no other choice.

It was a long night.

Luckily we are not a hard core group and we managed to do some progress last night, but there was a lot of Bosmer talk in the down times. I don’t think they are going to require me to switch or anything. But I wonder how long I am going to have to sit through stuff like that.

Our next meet up is tomorrow, but luckily I have captain marvel tickets so I don’t have to sit through that again so soon. Hopefully by this Saturday the “novelty” of having a Bosmer will have gone away.

Regarding the bolded portion; I thought these racial changes were supposed to be balanced?

Sarcasm aside, if the bolded portion becomes a trend, then ZOS really failed the Bosmers and really did corner them to PvP content only. Hopefully that's not the case, so that those who do continue playing Bosmers can enjoy the content they want.

Ironically, I left WoW a couple months ago because of the similar thing Blizzard did to DPS druids. Got turned down for Mythics a lot, because I wasnt BiS DPS or even a CiS (Competitor in Slot--I just made that up). So, I came back to ZoS and was telling friends how nice it was to come back to ESO and my character was still the same after all these years (albeit a few tweaks and minor changes along the way).

To be fair I don't think the dps for Bosmers are that bad, just not remarkable, but I have yet to see a parse where they are either not last or close to last for PvE.

Here is an example;

https://youtu.be/Fy1OYOiOd98

(Results come about 17 min in.) Wood elves came in last out of the 6 stam races tested.

For what we (our guilds) do, it's fine. But I doubt you will see any bosmers in the cutting edge guilds. I think the issue is that the better dps parsing races have all three racials working for them, but bosmers (And Altmers) are really running on two out of three.

I am not saying hunters eye should be a dps boost, but it should be something useful that is in support of the other two.

So along with better stealth, maybe instead of the armor pen, it could be a cost reduction for the roll. This way bosmers can do it and still have the stamina for dps. (Just an off the top of my head suggestion.)
Then again this cost reduction would not help single target dps parses like the one shown in the video, so who knows.

So six 35k dps parses in BiS gear somehow prove... nothing? And Imperial on first place while orc on last...
If we will name things honestly, bosmer received quite good buff as stamina dps in comparison to murkmire. Why? Because redguard was relatively nerfed (2000 stam << 9%) and bosmer relatively buffed (258 recovery >> then 21% until your recovery reaches 2.5-3k) and if not for orc 4.3.2 buff all stamina races would be in near ideal balance (from PVE dps view)

BlueRaven

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

So I had a depressing trial run last night.

(Background first: Our guild (and its sister guild) are primarily trading guilds that do social activities on the side. We also have housing contests, wb nights, trivia, and we have several trial groups.

One of the trial groups is a more experienced group. We do hard modes (CR+3 norm, etc) and vet trials.

We took a week off because of the weapon swapping issue and last night was our first time we all met up since the patch.)

Well my Bosmer became a big topic of conversation last night mostly because, well, she is still a Bosmer.

I had to sit through, well;
“Aren’t they a PvP race now?”
“Well I changed my Bosmer to...”
“Are bosmers BiS for anything PvE related?”
And “I am surprised you did not switch, want me to link you some sites so you can see what options you have?”

And then the conversation turned to stealth because we are a trading guild and a lot of people get their income via stealing.

So then the conversation became;
“I made my thief a kahjit.”
And how apparently there is now no other choice.

It was a long night.

Luckily we are not a hard core group and we managed to do some progress last night, but there was a lot of Bosmer talk in the down times. I don’t think they are going to require me to switch or anything. But I wonder how long I am going to have to sit through stuff like that.

Our next meet up is tomorrow, but luckily I have captain marvel tickets so I don’t have to sit through that again so soon. Hopefully by this Saturday the “novelty” of having a Bosmer will have gone away.

Regarding the bolded portion; I thought these racial changes were supposed to be balanced?

Sarcasm aside, if the bolded portion becomes a trend, then ZOS really failed the Bosmers and really did corner them to PvP content only. Hopefully that's not the case, so that those who do continue playing Bosmers can enjoy the content they want.

Ironically, I left WoW a couple months ago because of the similar thing Blizzard did to DPS druids. Got turned down for Mythics a lot, because I wasnt BiS DPS or even a CiS (Competitor in Slot--I just made that up). So, I came back to ZoS and was telling friends how nice it was to come back to ESO and my character was still the same after all these years (albeit a few tweaks and minor changes along the way).

To be fair I don't think the dps for Bosmers are that bad, just not remarkable, but I have yet to see a parse where they are either not last or close to last for PvE.

Here is an example;

https://youtu.be/Fy1OYOiOd98

(Results come about 17 min in.) Wood elves came in last out of the 6 stam races tested.

For what we (our guilds) do, it's fine. But I doubt you will see any bosmers in the cutting edge guilds. I think the issue is that the better dps parsing races have all three racials working for them, but bosmers (And Altmers) are really running on two out of three.

I am not saying hunters eye should be a dps boost, but it should be something useful that is in support of the other two.

So along with better stealth, maybe instead of the armor pen, it could be a cost reduction for the roll. This way bosmers can do it and still have the stamina for dps. (Just an off the top of my head suggestion.)
Then again this cost reduction would not help single target dps parses like the one shown in the video, so who knows.

So six 35k dps parses in BiS gear somehow prove... nothing? And Imperial on first place while orc on last...
If we will name things honestly, bosmer received quite good buff as stamina dps in comparison to murkmire. Why? Because redguard was relatively nerfed (2000 stam << 9%) and bosmer relatively buffed (258 recovery >> then 21% until your recovery reaches 2.5-3k) and if not for orc 4.3.2 buff all stamina races would be in near ideal balance (from PVE dps view)

I am not 100% following what you are saying. You seem to be objecting to something I said and I am not sure why.
I think you saw the average dps parse (where bosmers came in 5th) and stopped, if you keep going you can see their full conclusion.

Basically the video claims the best stam dps races are orc and dark elf. But they also went on to say unless you are in a cutting edge guild, choose what you want.
Which is what I was trying to say.

I am not saying that bosmers did not get a dps boost, they did. And I am not saying that their dps is awful, it is not.
I feel Bosmer dps is just ok. It still trails, but it’s fine.

I am just relating a story about what happened during a trial group.

(Also before we get off track this is a thread about stealth. )

What I am trying to say is that there is nothing “WOW!” about bosmers. Before any failings could be offset with the fact that at least bosmers had great stealth. Now that is gone and without stealth the race feels flat,

MartiniDaniels

BlueRaven wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

So I had a depressing trial run last night.

(Background first: Our guild (and its sister guild) are primarily trading guilds that do social activities on the side. We also have housing contests, wb nights, trivia, and we have several trial groups.

One of the trial groups is a more experienced group. We do hard modes (CR+3 norm, etc) and vet trials.

We took a week off because of the weapon swapping issue and last night was our first time we all met up since the patch.)

Well my Bosmer became a big topic of conversation last night mostly because, well, she is still a Bosmer.

I had to sit through, well;
“Aren’t they a PvP race now?”
“Well I changed my Bosmer to...”
“Are bosmers BiS for anything PvE related?”
And “I am surprised you did not switch, want me to link you some sites so you can see what options you have?”

And then the conversation turned to stealth because we are a trading guild and a lot of people get their income via stealing.

So then the conversation became;
“I made my thief a kahjit.”
And how apparently there is now no other choice.

It was a long night.

Luckily we are not a hard core group and we managed to do some progress last night, but there was a lot of Bosmer talk in the down times. I don’t think they are going to require me to switch or anything. But I wonder how long I am going to have to sit through stuff like that.

Our next meet up is tomorrow, but luckily I have captain marvel tickets so I don’t have to sit through that again so soon. Hopefully by this Saturday the “novelty” of having a Bosmer will have gone away.

Regarding the bolded portion; I thought these racial changes were supposed to be balanced?

Sarcasm aside, if the bolded portion becomes a trend, then ZOS really failed the Bosmers and really did corner them to PvP content only. Hopefully that's not the case, so that those who do continue playing Bosmers can enjoy the content they want.

Ironically, I left WoW a couple months ago because of the similar thing Blizzard did to DPS druids. Got turned down for Mythics a lot, because I wasnt BiS DPS or even a CiS (Competitor in Slot--I just made that up). So, I came back to ZoS and was telling friends how nice it was to come back to ESO and my character was still the same after all these years (albeit a few tweaks and minor changes along the way).

To be fair I don't think the dps for Bosmers are that bad, just not remarkable, but I have yet to see a parse where they are either not last or close to last for PvE.

Here is an example;

https://youtu.be/Fy1OYOiOd98

(Results come about 17 min in.) Wood elves came in last out of the 6 stam races tested.

For what we (our guilds) do, it's fine. But I doubt you will see any bosmers in the cutting edge guilds. I think the issue is that the better dps parsing races have all three racials working for them, but bosmers (And Altmers) are really running on two out of three.

I am not saying hunters eye should be a dps boost, but it should be something useful that is in support of the other two.

So along with better stealth, maybe instead of the armor pen, it could be a cost reduction for the roll. This way bosmers can do it and still have the stamina for dps. (Just an off the top of my head suggestion.)
Then again this cost reduction would not help single target dps parses like the one shown in the video, so who knows.

So six 35k dps parses in BiS gear somehow prove... nothing? And Imperial on first place while orc on last...
If we will name things honestly, bosmer received quite good buff as stamina dps in comparison to murkmire. Why? Because redguard was relatively nerfed (2000 stam << 9%) and bosmer relatively buffed (258 recovery >> then 21% until your recovery reaches 2.5-3k) and if not for orc 4.3.2 buff all stamina races would be in near ideal balance (from PVE dps view)

I am not 100% following what you are saying. You seem to be objecting to something I said and I am not sure why.
I think you saw the average dps parse (where bosmers came in 5th) and stopped, if you keep going you can see their full conclusion.

Basically the video claims the best stam dps races are orc and dark elf. But they also went on to say unless you are in a cutting edge guild, choose what you want.
Which is what I was trying to say.

I am not saying that bosmers did not get a dps boost, they did. And I am not saying that their dps is awful, it is not.
I feel Bosmer dps is just ok. It still trails, but it’s fine.

I am just relating a story about what happened during a trial group.

(Also before we get off track this is a thread about stealth. )

What I am trying to say is that there is nothing “WOW!” about bosmers. Before any failings could be offset with the fact that at least bosmers had great stealth. Now that is gone and without stealth the race feels flat,

I just mean that video is not representative because it has low number of parses and dps in this parses is mediocre for BiS gear used. Bosmers are ok as stamdps now, while in Murkmire they were much weaker then redguards and khajiits.

Did bosmer lost racial identity with lack of stealth? Yes.
Bosmer healers and tanks received nothing? Yes.
Was PVP bosmer or PVE stamdps bosmer nerfed or is stagnating in wrathstone? No, they were buffed if they were not gank-snipers.

Uryel

Mpf. Event based on stealth just after we lost stealth. That's a low blow, ZOS

At least my wife will no longer live 300 km away, I don't have to play every evening now. Losing my favorite gameplay on my favorite character did certainly do something to make me want to play less.

Sure, with the new gear I can sneak, somewhat. But it does feel off, and I don't like it

Korlian

And another thing. I was looking forward to this Thieves Guild / Dark Brotherhood event. These things was difficult enough with the stealth bonus. Now, without it... I don't feel like even doing it. In fact, I've been playing other games instead despite wanting to play ESO just cause I'm so bummed out this turned my playstyle upside down and I'm not having fun on my character anymore. And... I'm not having as much fun in those either because I actually do want to play ESO xD

"But you can race change to a Khajiit". I don't want to be one? I don't like being one, nor do I like tails. I happen to want to play my Bosmer that I've grown so attached to, thank you very much and no amount of race change tokens can change that.

"Learn to adapt to the new playstyle then." Well, that's like trying to force yourself to be something you're not. Tried it already, even in ESO, and plenty of other games. I just can't, I'm a stealth guy, it's just who I am, I'm sorry?

Fun fact: If it wasn't for Bosmers, I probably might not have played this game as much as I do. In fact, I probably would only have played it briefly and then quit despite being a huge TES fan in general. Bosmer and Khajiit were the two stealth options, and lucky for me there was an option. Had it been Khajiit only, yeah, I probably would not have played this game due to something as silly as I just can't handle the tail thing, nor to be an animal race either I guess. Strange how big of an impact these seemingly small things can have on someones playstyle and enjoyment of something.

BlueRaven

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

So I had a depressing trial run last night.

(Background first: Our guild (and its sister guild) are primarily trading guilds that do social activities on the side. We also have housing contests, wb nights, trivia, and we have several trial groups.

One of the trial groups is a more experienced group. We do hard modes (CR+3 norm, etc) and vet trials.

We took a week off because of the weapon swapping issue and last night was our first time we all met up since the patch.)

Well my Bosmer became a big topic of conversation last night mostly because, well, she is still a Bosmer.

I had to sit through, well;
“Aren’t they a PvP race now?”
“Well I changed my Bosmer to...”
“Are bosmers BiS for anything PvE related?”
And “I am surprised you did not switch, want me to link you some sites so you can see what options you have?”

And then the conversation turned to stealth because we are a trading guild and a lot of people get their income via stealing.

So then the conversation became;
“I made my thief a kahjit.”
And how apparently there is now no other choice.

It was a long night.

Luckily we are not a hard core group and we managed to do some progress last night, but there was a lot of Bosmer talk in the down times. I don’t think they are going to require me to switch or anything. But I wonder how long I am going to have to sit through stuff like that.

Our next meet up is tomorrow, but luckily I have captain marvel tickets so I don’t have to sit through that again so soon. Hopefully by this Saturday the “novelty” of having a Bosmer will have gone away.

Regarding the bolded portion; I thought these racial changes were supposed to be balanced?

Sarcasm aside, if the bolded portion becomes a trend, then ZOS really failed the Bosmers and really did corner them to PvP content only. Hopefully that's not the case, so that those who do continue playing Bosmers can enjoy the content they want.

Ironically, I left WoW a couple months ago because of the similar thing Blizzard did to DPS druids. Got turned down for Mythics a lot, because I wasnt BiS DPS or even a CiS (Competitor in Slot--I just made that up). So, I came back to ZoS and was telling friends how nice it was to come back to ESO and my character was still the same after all these years (albeit a few tweaks and minor changes along the way).

To be fair I don't think the dps for Bosmers are that bad, just not remarkable, but I have yet to see a parse where they are either not last or close to last for PvE.

Here is an example;

https://youtu.be/Fy1OYOiOd98

(Results come about 17 min in.) Wood elves came in last out of the 6 stam races tested.

For what we (our guilds) do, it's fine. But I doubt you will see any bosmers in the cutting edge guilds. I think the issue is that the better dps parsing races have all three racials working for them, but bosmers (And Altmers) are really running on two out of three.

I am not saying hunters eye should be a dps boost, but it should be something useful that is in support of the other two.

So along with better stealth, maybe instead of the armor pen, it could be a cost reduction for the roll. This way bosmers can do it and still have the stamina for dps. (Just an off the top of my head suggestion.)
Then again this cost reduction would not help single target dps parses like the one shown in the video, so who knows.

So six 35k dps parses in BiS gear somehow prove... nothing? And Imperial on first place while orc on last...
If we will name things honestly, bosmer received quite good buff as stamina dps in comparison to murkmire. Why? Because redguard was relatively nerfed (2000 stam << 9%) and bosmer relatively buffed (258 recovery >> then 21% until your recovery reaches 2.5-3k) and if not for orc 4.3.2 buff all stamina races would be in near ideal balance (from PVE dps view)

I am not 100% following what you are saying. You seem to be objecting to something I said and I am not sure why.
I think you saw the average dps parse (where bosmers came in 5th) and stopped, if you keep going you can see their full conclusion.

Basically the video claims the best stam dps races are orc and dark elf. But they also went on to say unless you are in a cutting edge guild, choose what you want.
Which is what I was trying to say.

I am not saying that bosmers did not get a dps boost, they did. And I am not saying that their dps is awful, it is not.
I feel Bosmer dps is just ok. It still trails, but it’s fine.

I am just relating a story about what happened during a trial group.

(Also before we get off track this is a thread about stealth. )

What I am trying to say is that there is nothing “WOW!” about bosmers. Before any failings could be offset with the fact that at least bosmers had great stealth. Now that is gone and without stealth the race feels flat,

I just mean that video is not representative because it has low number of parses and dps in this parses is mediocre for BiS gear used. Bosmers are ok as stamdps now, while in Murkmire they were much weaker then redguards and khajiits.

Did bosmer lost racial identity with lack of stealth? Yes.
Bosmer healers and tanks received nothing? Yes.
Was PVP bosmer or PVE stamdps bosmer nerfed or is stagnating in wrathstone? No, they were buffed if they were not gank-snipers.

Again I was not very clear, and I apologize. There is nothing incorrect about what you are saying. I just gave one example, the video, when I should have given multiple examples. But again I did not want this to stray too much into dps when this was a forum thread about stealth.

I think (again) I have also mischaracterized our group. We are traders first, I would character us as a middle ground between a casual (normal) trial group and a hard core vet trial group.

And I think I wanted to characterize what the perception is of bosmers and not the actual numbers right now. And to be honest the sample size (our trial group) is small. But this was the prevailing thought in the group, that I was making it harder on myself for playing a Bosmer.

A link that was sent to me in discord was for Alcast.

https://alcasthq.com/eso-race-guide-elder-scrolls-online/

Here is what their recommendations are;

”Stamina Damage Dealer

Best choice: Orc, Redguard, Dark Elf, Kahjiit

As a stamina damage dealer Orcs have the best stats, followed up by races like Redguards, Dark Elves and Khajiits. All are viable choices, so you can pick whichever race you like the most.”


Notice that bosmers are not even mentioned as a recommendation. But if you go to the Bosmer section it does not have anything bad to say about them.

Which again is what my feelings are about them. They are fine, and that is the best I can say about them.

Alcast is the page that was most referenced to that night. And is where most of us get our info from. I also think it’s through sites like this that there is a trickle down of perception of what is best.

anadandy

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

In my not-all-all-humble opinion it should be a completely new passive: Stealthy F'n Archer: 1/2/3m hiding bonus, +32/64/128 damage with bows, 2/3/4% reduced cost for bow abilities.

That's half the redguard bonus (which is for all weapons) and half the Orc/Dunmer weapon bonus (for all weapons), but only for bows. Right now Bosmer don't have ANY ability that the lore says they should have. Bosmer are supposed to be the best archers, and that's not the case -- Orcs, Dunmer, and even Redguards are better. Bosmer are supposed to be stealthy and that's not the case. Honestly, this game no longer has any Bosmer in it at all.

I totally agree, but I think the reason they won't do something like this is the rampant gankphobia. Archers=gankers, Stealth=gankers - drives me crazy. I mean I hate getting ganked as much as the next person, but crippling Bosmer isn't going to change that.

Hand_Bacon

As much as I agree with different points being made here, I don't see them changing it.

Remember all the outrage, some blatantly fake outrage, over Crown Crates and how there was going to be a mass exodus? Well, most of those people are still here and the game keeps on moving forward.

Night_Wolf2112

I totally play less already thanks to them ruining bosmers...... I most like will be gone once TES VI drops if stealth never comes back to the RACE, not just "easier access for everyone".

Cundu_Ertur

BlueRaven wrote: »

…
A link that was sent to me in discord was for Alcast.

https://alcasthq.com/eso-race-guide-elder-scrolls-online/

Here is what their recommendations are;

”Stamina Damage Dealer

Best choice: Orc, Redguard, Dark Elf, Kahjiit

As a stamina damage dealer Orcs have the best stats, followed up by races like Redguards, Dark Elves and Khajiits. All are viable choices, so you can pick whichever race you like the most.”


Notice that bosmers are not even mentioned as a recommendation. But if you go to the Bosmer section it does not have anything bad to say about them.

Which again is what my feelings are about them. They are fine, and that is the best I can say about them.

Alcast is the page that was most referenced to that night. And is where most of us get our info from. I also think it’s through sites like this that there is a trickle down of perception of what is best.

There's a simple reason why, they all have some kind of permanent bonus to damage or a reduced cost for abilities. Bosmer don't. Bosmer get a highly conditional boost to penetration.

MartiniDaniels

BlueRaven wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

So I had a depressing trial run last night.

(Background first: Our guild (and its sister guild) are primarily trading guilds that do social activities on the side. We also have housing contests, wb nights, trivia, and we have several trial groups.

One of the trial groups is a more experienced group. We do hard modes (CR+3 norm, etc) and vet trials.

We took a week off because of the weapon swapping issue and last night was our first time we all met up since the patch.)

Well my Bosmer became a big topic of conversation last night mostly because, well, she is still a Bosmer.

I had to sit through, well;
“Aren’t they a PvP race now?”
“Well I changed my Bosmer to...”
“Are bosmers BiS for anything PvE related?”
And “I am surprised you did not switch, want me to link you some sites so you can see what options you have?”

And then the conversation turned to stealth because we are a trading guild and a lot of people get their income via stealing.

So then the conversation became;
“I made my thief a kahjit.”
And how apparently there is now no other choice.

It was a long night.

Luckily we are not a hard core group and we managed to do some progress last night, but there was a lot of Bosmer talk in the down times. I don’t think they are going to require me to switch or anything. But I wonder how long I am going to have to sit through stuff like that.

Our next meet up is tomorrow, but luckily I have captain marvel tickets so I don’t have to sit through that again so soon. Hopefully by this Saturday the “novelty” of having a Bosmer will have gone away.

Regarding the bolded portion; I thought these racial changes were supposed to be balanced?

Sarcasm aside, if the bolded portion becomes a trend, then ZOS really failed the Bosmers and really did corner them to PvP content only. Hopefully that's not the case, so that those who do continue playing Bosmers can enjoy the content they want.

Ironically, I left WoW a couple months ago because of the similar thing Blizzard did to DPS druids. Got turned down for Mythics a lot, because I wasnt BiS DPS or even a CiS (Competitor in Slot--I just made that up). So, I came back to ZoS and was telling friends how nice it was to come back to ESO and my character was still the same after all these years (albeit a few tweaks and minor changes along the way).

To be fair I don't think the dps for Bosmers are that bad, just not remarkable, but I have yet to see a parse where they are either not last or close to last for PvE.

Here is an example;

https://youtu.be/Fy1OYOiOd98

(Results come about 17 min in.) Wood elves came in last out of the 6 stam races tested.

For what we (our guilds) do, it's fine. But I doubt you will see any bosmers in the cutting edge guilds. I think the issue is that the better dps parsing races have all three racials working for them, but bosmers (And Altmers) are really running on two out of three.

I am not saying hunters eye should be a dps boost, but it should be something useful that is in support of the other two.

So along with better stealth, maybe instead of the armor pen, it could be a cost reduction for the roll. This way bosmers can do it and still have the stamina for dps. (Just an off the top of my head suggestion.)
Then again this cost reduction would not help single target dps parses like the one shown in the video, so who knows.

So six 35k dps parses in BiS gear somehow prove... nothing? And Imperial on first place while orc on last...
If we will name things honestly, bosmer received quite good buff as stamina dps in comparison to murkmire. Why? Because redguard was relatively nerfed (2000 stam << 9%) and bosmer relatively buffed (258 recovery >> then 21% until your recovery reaches 2.5-3k) and if not for orc 4.3.2 buff all stamina races would be in near ideal balance (from PVE dps view)

I am not 100% following what you are saying. You seem to be objecting to something I said and I am not sure why.
I think you saw the average dps parse (where bosmers came in 5th) and stopped, if you keep going you can see their full conclusion.

Basically the video claims the best stam dps races are orc and dark elf. But they also went on to say unless you are in a cutting edge guild, choose what you want.
Which is what I was trying to say.

I am not saying that bosmers did not get a dps boost, they did. And I am not saying that their dps is awful, it is not.
I feel Bosmer dps is just ok. It still trails, but it’s fine.

I am just relating a story about what happened during a trial group.

(Also before we get off track this is a thread about stealth. )

What I am trying to say is that there is nothing “WOW!” about bosmers. Before any failings could be offset with the fact that at least bosmers had great stealth. Now that is gone and without stealth the race feels flat,

I just mean that video is not representative because it has low number of parses and dps in this parses is mediocre for BiS gear used. Bosmers are ok as stamdps now, while in Murkmire they were much weaker then redguards and khajiits.

Did bosmer lost racial identity with lack of stealth? Yes.
Bosmer healers and tanks received nothing? Yes.
Was PVP bosmer or PVE stamdps bosmer nerfed or is stagnating in wrathstone? No, they were buffed if they were not gank-snipers.

Again I was not very clear, and I apologize. There is nothing incorrect about what you are saying. I just gave one example, the video, when I should have given multiple examples. But again I did not want this to stray too much into dps when this was a forum thread about stealth.

I think (again) I have also mischaracterized our group. We are traders first, I would character us as a middle ground between a casual (normal) trial group and a hard core vet trial group.

And I think I wanted to characterize what the perception is of bosmers and not the actual numbers right now. And to be honest the sample size (our trial group) is small. But this was the prevailing thought in the group, that I was making it harder on myself for playing a Bosmer.

A link that was sent to me in discord was for Alcast.

https://alcasthq.com/eso-race-guide-elder-scrolls-online/

Here is what their recommendations are;

”Stamina Damage Dealer

Best choice: Orc, Redguard, Dark Elf, Kahjiit

As a stamina damage dealer Orcs have the best stats, followed up by races like Redguards, Dark Elves and Khajiits. All are viable choices, so you can pick whichever race you like the most.”


Notice that bosmers are not even mentioned as a recommendation. But if you go to the Bosmer section it does not have anything bad to say about them.

Which again is what my feelings are about them. They are fine, and that is the best I can say about them.

Alcast is the page that was most referenced to that night. And is where most of us get our info from. I also think it’s through sites like this that there is a trickle down of perception of what is best.

Yep, I live on Alcast's site and though i don't copy his builds to 100% but I always use them as base reference to start with so I read it all over ton of times. And before bosmer was not even in "secondary recommended" races for any build other then bow ganker PVP, now he is right there together with other 5 races.

I agree that bosmer lacks his "feature" and that roll-dodge thing is too narrow for majority of players. So as for now all we can do is continue to run 'Bosmer cornerclub' in this thread and maybe ZOS will see it when there will be 200 pages or similar

Korlian

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

I totally play less already thanks to them ruining bosmers...... I most like will be gone once TES VI drops if stealth never comes back to the RACE, not just "easier access for everyone".

It won't. TESVI is not made by the same company.

wedgebert

Korlian wrote: »

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

I totally play less already thanks to them ruining bosmers...... I most like will be gone once TES VI drops if stealth never comes back to the RACE, not just "easier access for everyone".

It won't. TESVI is not made by the same company.

No, it's made by the same people who made Fallout 76

KMarble

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Yeah I don't know of anyone who did stealth based gameplay who relied ONLY on the racial trait, almost everyone ran with at least one additional stealth set bonus. So it's pretty insulting when people try to suggest using the stealth set bonuses that we were already using. I know these people don't MEAN to be insulting but that's how it comes across. Like if an escalator stops working someone leans over and says "you know you can still walk up them like stairs!" Yeah gee thanks buddy I never would have figured that out without your expert advice.

Makes you want to slap the taste out of someone's mouth.

lol Insulting? Slap somebody? Put the Bosmer down and walk away slowly...

Its not only a suggestion, its the reality now until further notice so "gettin' yer dander up" over it is kinda silly.


EDIT: Although I like your analogy, if I see somebody sit down halfway up a stuck escalator, pouting or fretting that they won't reach the top...I'll let them know they can walk up the rest of the way. Maybe their principle is that since its now IMPOSSIBLE to make it to the top, management should come carry them.

You seem to have an interesting quirk that gives you selective reading so that you can claim that most of us here are behaving like spoiled brats throwing a fit.

Why do you (now - previously you're nitpicking on other details that you, unintentionally or not, misinterpreted) claim we are refusing to adapt? Or is it that the only way you think anyone playing a stealthy wood elf can adapt is to race change to Khajiit?

I have a NB Khajiit that was created a few months ago so that I could experience another way of being a thief. My wood elf had extra stealth, my Khajiit has extra sticky fingers. I was looking forward learning a different play style with the NB. (Ironically, my Khajiit, created before any announcement from ZOS, looks a lot like the one Khajiit in the trailer)

I do not want another Khajiit. I want the diversity we had before the patch. And again, because apparently this is hard to understand, I have no problem whatsoever with any other of the racial skills for wood elves. My (and all the others) complaint is about taking stealth away from wood elves.

Hand_Bacon

Talk about selective reading or not understanding...

KMarble wrote: »

You seem to have an interesting quirk that gives you selective reading so that you can claim that most of us here are behaving like spoiled brats throwing a fit.

Don't write things in a dramatic fashion if you don't want to be seen as dramatic.

KMarble wrote: »

Why do you (now - previously you're nitpicking on other details that you, unintentionally or not, misinterpreted) claim we are refusing to adapt? Or is it that the only way you think anyone playing a stealthy wood elf can adapt is to race change to Khajiit?

I wasn't saying anyone was refusing, I was saying that for now, I hope people continue to adapt so they can find away to continue to enjoy their characters in some fashion. I've repeatedly stated this. What could possibly be wrong with that? You can't live in the past if you want to play in the present. Do you just want everyone affected to feel the misery you all previously tried to project? I nitpicked over the top dramatic hyperbole.

KMarble wrote: »

I have a NB Khajiit that was created a few months ago so that I could experience another way of being a thief. My wood elf had extra stealth, my Khajiit has extra sticky fingers. I was looking forward learning a different play style with the NB. (Ironically, my Khajiit, created before any announcement from ZOS, looks a lot like the one Khajiit in the trailer)

I have one as well. I recently switched mine over to a mag NB to mess around in a different fashion and also go for speed on these dailies.

KMarble wrote: »

I do not want another Khajiit. I want the diversity we had before the patch. And again, because apparently this is hard to understand, I have no problem whatsoever with any other of the racial skills for wood elves. My (and all the others) complaint is about taking stealth away from wood elves.

I've never misunderstood that, in fact you all seem to be repeating the same thing over and over and over again as if the point hasn't been driven home yet. I've stated time and time and time again that I wouldn't mind the old bonus coming back, but I wasn't ready to necessarily throw in the towel on the new changes. What possible objection could you have to that?

The only thing that is hard to comprehend is that people take such an issue with any dissent about this change. Not even dissent really merely not wanting everyone to feel like has to be all 1's and 0's for Bosmer as some of you continue to state in essence, "There can be NO JOY unless we get this back!"

You've made your case and I will never peddle in misery. Most recently I stated the current reality and just like that...I'm a heretic.


Why don't you take issue with things that make no sense, like the analogy I was talking about? Is it because you're okay with nonsense as long as its in the affirmative of your position. @Ratzkifal has done a great job putting together a credible plea, but if you don't police the affirmative you weaken it.

anadandy

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

So as for now all we can do is continue to run 'Bosmer cornerclub' in this thread and maybe ZOS will see it when there will be 200 pages or similar

Ha, Bosmer cornerclub - I love it.

The interesting thing is some devs at ZOS are capable of responding and communicating. Just look at what Finn did in the thread about the dungeon changes. Explained exactly why they did what they did - i.e. looked at completion numbers and adjusted the mechanics based on those numbers. Sure, it may not be the answer people wanted but at least it was an answer and one that made sense. It wasn't "oh Dungeons looked like street cars, so we made everything work like a streetcar" or some other nonsense.

How hard is that? How hard is it to say "Hey yeah, we know stealth detection is a useless piece of crap in PVE but there are future game updates that will change this" - or something. Not asking for them to spill some big secret - but the non-acknowledgment just makes it look like someone effed up and is now just too embarrassed to back down.

Jaraal

There is no big secret, though. It’s very clear that they are forcing more people to play Khajiits to sell more of the upcoming Khajiit chapter. It’s the only logical explanation for them reducing stealh play to one race.

Hand_Bacon

@Jaraal

How does it mean that? Did argonians only play Murkmire, did dunmer and argonians only play morrowind, etc?

I widely held conspiracy theory does not make it a badly kept secret.

I think they may have made the khajiits more attractive to other non stealth players by increasing other stats. I see it as a change so that if they want to play it with a khajiit they have more options.

wedgebert

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@Jaraal
I think they may have made the khajiits more attractive to other non stealth players by increasing other stats though so that if they want to play it with a khajiit they have more options.

You say that, but I see more complaints about their changes than I do saying it made the race more fun.

Overall I see a lot more complaints about the racial changes when it comes to play styles than I do people saying it helped. The min/maxers are all happy because they mostly don't care and will switch to whatever's best.

But it seems that people who choose their race for other reasons tend to be unhappy or at least lukewarm.

Hand_Bacon

wedgebert wrote: »

You say that, but I see more complaints about their changes than I do saying it made the race more fun.

Overall I see a lot more complaints about the racial changes when it comes to play styles than I do people saying it helped. The min/maxers are all happy because they mostly don't care and will switch to whatever's best.

But it seems that people who choose their race for other reasons tend to be unhappy or at least lukewarm.

Its generally true that people don't like change to begin with, so there is that, especially changing something thats been around awhile. People are also more likely to complain than they are to say they are okay with something or like something. I forget the actual statistical ratio. Then there is the proclivity to show empathy to those in their various circles, so that a neutral or positive can turn into a nod of likewise belief or at least support. People will actually avoid telling people the truth in fear of "appearing" to hurt somebody's feelings.

"Min/maxers" or better referred to as most competitively competent for certain content. Taking the vast amount of content in the game, I'm glad they are happy as not much is geared towards them.

We don't know the whole story of how these changes will play out and it will be interesting to see.

Swergdach

wedgebert wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@Jaraal
I think they may have made the khajiits more attractive to other non stealth players by increasing other stats though so that if they want to play it with a khajiit they have more options.

You say that, but I see more complaints about their changes than I do saying it made the race more fun.

Overall I see a lot more complaints about the racial changes when it comes to play styles than I do people saying it helped. The min/maxers are all happy because they mostly don't care and will switch to whatever's best.

But it seems that people who choose their race for other reasons tend to be unhappy or at least lukewarm.

Most of people cares only dps/sustain/survibility/effectivness in PVE and PVP. They do not see a big deal to playstyle/racial identety/RP. And they most likely can easely change the race to play with same effectiveness that they like.
Minority of people, who do not want to change their race and their playstyle, still can complains in hoping of revert changing. And if it's not happening, they are either leave the game either play less/submit to changes. But they are never turn to acception of changes that throw away things what they cares.
P.S. And if someone say nonsence that people usually avoid to telling people truth in fear to hurt someone in internet, don't listen, it's a lie. People lie or don't tells the truth only for their own interests. Local forum's trolls do that, for example. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

max_only

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Now I am willing to let the stealthiness originate in a form of a skill tree OUTSIDE of their racials, but that's where I am drawing the line.

I'd honestly draw the line even sooner. No Bosmer stealth racials? No money for ZO$ from me. But I'm probably easier to please when it comes to what kind of stealth buff to give them.

How would you feel if the fall bonus was taken away and replaced with stealth radius reduction instead?

Jaraal

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@Jaraal
How does it mean that? Did argonians only play Murkmire, did dunmer and argonians only play morrowind, etc?

Well, you certainly like to argue a lot. But that's good, keep bumping the thread!


(Oh, and Murkmire was free. They had no financial motivation to change established lore to sell the DLC.)

Swergdach

Jaraal wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@Jaraal
How does it mean that? Did argonians only play Murkmire, did dunmer and argonians only play morrowind, etc?

Well, you certainly like to argue a lot. But that's good, keep bumping the thread!


(Oh, and Murkmire was free. They had no financial motivation to change established lore to sell the DLC.)

And Morrowind did not need such low blow as increasing the attractiveness of one race to the detriment of another. Hell, it's Morrowind, a classic pearl of the series. A lot of people waited for it for a long time. In addition, it is not known what reaction Lawrence Schick would have had if they had proposed such changes at the time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Razorback174

@ZOS_LeamonTuttle

Would it be possible to get the new loremaster's opinion on this situation?

Cundu_Ertur

max_only wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Now I am willing to let the stealthiness originate in a form of a skill tree OUTSIDE of their racials, but that's where I am drawing the line.

I'd honestly draw the line even sooner. No Bosmer stealth racials? No money for ZO$ from me. But I'm probably easier to please when it comes to what kind of stealth buff to give them.

How would you feel if the fall bonus was taken away and replaced with stealth radius reduction instead?

I'm not Ratzkifal, but I'd be ok with that.

wedgebert

max_only wrote: »

I'd honestly draw the line even sooner. No Bosmer stealth racials? No money for ZO$ from me. But I'm probably easier to please when it comes to what kind of stealth buff to give them.

How would you feel if the fall bonus was taken away and replaced with stealth radius reduction instead?
[/quote]

I'd be fine with that. The fall bonus is a nice quality of life thing, but until ESO I didn't even realize it would be a racial power. And if I did, I would have assumed it would be a Khajiit (cat) thing.

Then again, I also would have assumed a bonus to dodge-rolling (acrobatics) would also be a Khajiit thing since that was always their top skill until it no longer existed.

Same with better stealth detection since Khajiit always had bonuses to vision (Night Eye).

Jaraal

wedgebert wrote: »

I'd be fine with that. The fall bonus is a nice quality of life thing, but until ESO I didn't even realize it would be a racial power. And if I did, I would have assumed it would be a Khajiit (cat) thing.

Then again, I also would have assumed a bonus to dodge-rolling (acrobatics) would also be a Khajiit thing since that was always their top skill until it no longer existed.

Same with better stealth detection since Khajiit always had bonuses to vision (Night Eye).

Stop it! Just...... stop making sense!

Ashryn

I would be extremely unhappy if they took away the fall bonus. I rely on that quite a bit as I take my unusual paths around when I am exploring or farming. On the other hand...take away that useless stealth detection bonus!

Swergdach

wedgebert wrote: »

I'd be fine with that. The fall bonus is a nice quality of life thing, but until ESO I didn't even realize it would be a racial power. And if I did, I would have assumed it would be a Khajiit (cat) thing.

Then again, I also would have assumed a bonus to dodge-rolling (acrobatics) would also be a Khajiit thing since that was always their top skill until it no longer existed.

Same with better stealth detection since Khajiit always had bonuses to vision (Night Eye).

Acrobatics make sence but NOT the stealth detection. It's just ridiculous to make Bosmer a sentinel. youtu.be/cd4POiGGP3c