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Are you happy with the racial changes that most likely will go live?

  • method__01
    method__01
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, I hate them!
    just terrible,Bosmer literally useless (got 2) high elf with stam reg?? wtf came out with all this nonsense?
    and btw this is the kind of question some should ask when a company employee stand in front of a camera (twitch)
    not "what a fantastic game, all is so well designed,you are the best"etc etc
    not a word about performance or incoming changes

    edit:spelling
    Edited by method__01 on February 19, 2019 2:35AM
    PC EU/NA /// PS4 EU/NA

  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some are nice, others are not.
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Xsorus wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Bosmer outsustains redguard, the supposed stam sustain race in at least 3 out of the 5 classes while having a speed bonus and resists. Yes the 258 stam regen is much more than you think in reality. The snare resistance is borderline useless especially when it is multiplicative. Every race but redguard has some sort of dmg mitigation or hp passive

    Bosmer has lost its flavor in a way by removing stealth detection radius reduction and stealth damage. Kinda strange that a tiny bosmer is just as noticable as a large orc or nord.

    Redguard is good on anything that uses a weapon skill as a main attack, so Wardens/Stam Sorcs/Stam DK

    And also....Magicka Sorc...right now you can make an absolutely beast most Magicka Sorc with Redguard.

    But bosmer is better for sustain (which redguard is supposed to excel at) and orc for damage for stam. With bosmer's and orc's high mobility, orc's tankyness and high dmg, and bosmer' high regen, why choose a redguard? Dont say the snare reduction passive. It turns a 40% snare into a 34% snare. And a 70% snare into a 59.5% snare. With most stam builds running shuffle/fm this is moot.

    For mag, I can agree with you somewhat, though you have to admit it seems a bit off. A stam race as a mag toon.
    Even so, Altmer has much more damage while having good stam sustain.

    You're better off with Redguard if you use a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Shrouded Daggers, Rending Slashes, Wrecking Blow, etc.). You're better off with Bosmer if you don't. Both still have excellent sustain for all stam builds.

    I can't say for PvP, but for PvE, I'd pick Redguard over Bosmer on a stamsorc and stamDK. Stamplars will see slightly better sustain as a Bosmer but the 8% cost reduction of Ballista for a Redguard is a factor as well. That 8% cost reduction on weapon ultimates may move the needle for some PvP builds as well.

    With the sustain, utility and resists bosmer gets, I see no reason to choose redguard over it. A bosmer, unless you are permablocking or sprinting will always have their regen ticking while a redguard needs a target to take full advantage.

    As I said elsewhere, I have actually tested Redguard vs. Bosmer on a variety of builds. If you are using a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Shrouded Daggers, or Wrecking Blow), Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer.

    Bosmer with Crushing Weapon:
    AtqRD1Z.png

    Redguard with Rapid Strikes:
    3Gywtpq.png

    In fact, on a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, even using Lavafoot food, it is not possible to sustain a full LA rotation on a 6mil skeleton. On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, it is.

    Bosmer with heavies did the same as redguard with no heavies... hmmm
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Yes, absolutely!
    All parses and math I have seen show that these races are all within a margin that can be put down to human error and chance at this point, and it baffles me how big of a deal these tiny differences are to many people. This is the first time I understand that you simply can't do it right. People will complain whatever change is coming, and it is quite difficult to filter out unbiased reasonable feedback.
    PC EU

    All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!

    Youtube:
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  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, I hate them!
    Masel wrote: »
    All parses and math I have seen show that these races are all within a margin that can be put down to human error and chance at this point, and it baffles me how big of a deal these tiny differences are to many people. This is the first time I understand that you simply can't do it right. People will complain whatever change is coming, and it is quite difficult to filter out unbiased reasonable feedback.

    So fact that orc is somehow first place for any stamina class at averaged series of 20 parses for each class is within human error limits?
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Yes, absolutely!
    cheifsoap wrote: »
    Honestly, I'm a little annoyed that I'm going to have to race change to a nord in order to be a competitive tank in PVE. For PVP, I'll just delete my argonian and reroll the meta for PVP caster

    How about you have a look at imperial and Argonian too. If you need that ulti gain you'll have to get your resources from elsewhere. Not choosing argonian/imperial is a big loss in sustain, and you waste the resistance bonus in many instances too. If that is worth 0.2-0.4 ulti gain per second for you... Imperial boosts group dps as well through the cost reduction passive for example....
    PC EU

    All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!

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  • Ozby
    Ozby
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, I hate them!
    Sabbathius wrote: »
    You gotta remember what the ultimate purpose of these changes is, and always has been - money. As long as race change sells for cash, there's a strong financial incentive for the developers to poorly balance racials, so that a year down the line they can repeat the process, once again in the name of balance, and have the feeble-minded pay to race change to the optimal race yet again. And again, and again.

    The only thing I can tell anyone who is unhappy - DO NOT FALL FOR THE TRICK! Stay whatever race you are. In a year or two, you are virtually guaranteed that ZOS will spin the wheel again, and your race might be optimal once more. It is a strange game they are playing, and the only way to win is not to p(l)ay.

    The cash grab argument lost some traction, imo, when they added 3 free change tokens.

    I have 12ish max level toons...if I were to decide to play them all as endgame toons, I'd need to racechange a handful of them, but I'm not playing 12 toons at endgame. 3 tokens covers me for the foreseeable future.

    ....I would certainly agree if they weren't including those tokens.

    Well some of us do have 12 end game toons.
    PC NA
    Aurora Bravepaw (Healden), Basks in Fire (DKTank), Bran Artlion (Magplar), Brindel Seedthorne (Stamden WW), Brugo Gargak (Stamcro), Casimir Delmar (StamDK), Falco Bastion (Stamsorc), Fus Ro Dah (Stamplar), Gandalff the Gay (Petsorc), Jo-Qinan Betula (Magden), Laveera Hex (Magcro), Raine Whitestag (Stamden), Raised by Bears (Wardentank), Ralak Rotheart (Healcro), Selene Sunshadow MagDK), Shadow Mirage (NBTank), Slythe Rattlebone (Healplar), Ulfnor Dragonslayer (Tankcro).
  • CurvedSwords123
    CurvedSwords123
    ✭✭✭
    No, I hate them!
    Masel wrote: »
    All parses and math I have seen show that these races are all within a margin that can be put down to human error and chance at this point, and it baffles me how big of a deal these tiny differences are to many people. This is the first time I understand that you simply can't do it right. People will complain whatever change is coming, and it is quite difficult to filter out unbiased reasonable feedback.

    So fact that orc is somehow first place for any stamina class at averaged series of 20 parses for each class is within human error limits?

    They also have toughness (health, lifetap), speed, and all of their passives scale and are versatile. One more week for some parity buffs. Let's see what happens.
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Yes, absolutely!
    Masel wrote: »
    All parses and math I have seen show that these races are all within a margin that can be put down to human error and chance at this point, and it baffles me how big of a deal these tiny differences are to many people. This is the first time I understand that you simply can't do it right. People will complain whatever change is coming, and it is quite difficult to filter out unbiased reasonable feedback.

    So fact that orc is somehow first place for any stamina class at averaged series of 20 parses for each class is within human error limits?

    Orc and dunmer are best parsers for a very specific reason, and that is the one that food buffs such as artaeum broth and dubious throne provide too much without a real tradeoff. With them, damage races can get both higher sustain and damage than the sustain counterparts.

    These debates are proof of people not seeing the bigger picture at this time. Orc and dunmer outparse them because sustain can be achieved without a more significant tradeoff, not because their stats are OP.

    Reducing their stats would decrease their stat density budget unjustifiably, because the issue lies elsewhere.
    Edited by Masel on February 19, 2019 12:40AM
    PC EU

    All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!

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  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Most of them look good!
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Xsorus wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Bosmer outsustains redguard, the supposed stam sustain race in at least 3 out of the 5 classes while having a speed bonus and resists. Yes the 258 stam regen is much more than you think in reality. The snare resistance is borderline useless especially when it is multiplicative. Every race but redguard has some sort of dmg mitigation or hp passive

    Bosmer has lost its flavor in a way by removing stealth detection radius reduction and stealth damage. Kinda strange that a tiny bosmer is just as noticable as a large orc or nord.

    Redguard is good on anything that uses a weapon skill as a main attack, so Wardens/Stam Sorcs/Stam DK

    And also....Magicka Sorc...right now you can make an absolutely beast most Magicka Sorc with Redguard.

    But bosmer is better for sustain (which redguard is supposed to excel at) and orc for damage for stam. With bosmer's and orc's high mobility, orc's tankyness and high dmg, and bosmer' high regen, why choose a redguard? Dont say the snare reduction passive. It turns a 40% snare into a 34% snare. And a 70% snare into a 59.5% snare. With most stam builds running shuffle/fm this is moot.

    For mag, I can agree with you somewhat, though you have to admit it seems a bit off. A stam race as a mag toon.
    Even so, Altmer has much more damage while having good stam sustain.

    You're better off with Redguard if you use a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Shrouded Daggers, Rending Slashes, Wrecking Blow, etc.). You're better off with Bosmer if you don't. Both still have excellent sustain for all stam builds.

    I can't say for PvP, but for PvE, I'd pick Redguard over Bosmer on a stamsorc and stamDK. Stamplars will see slightly better sustain as a Bosmer but the 8% cost reduction of Ballista for a Redguard is a factor as well. That 8% cost reduction on weapon ultimates may move the needle for some PvP builds as well.

    With the sustain, utility and resists bosmer gets, I see no reason to choose redguard over it. A bosmer, unless you are permablocking or sprinting will always have their regen ticking while a redguard needs a target to take full advantage.

    As I said elsewhere, I have actually tested Redguard vs. Bosmer on a variety of builds. If you are using a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Shrouded Daggers, or Wrecking Blow), Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer.

    Bosmer with Crushing Weapon:
    AtqRD1Z.png

    Redguard with Rapid Strikes:
    3Gywtpq.png

    In fact, on a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, even using Lavafoot food, it is not possible to sustain a full LA rotation on a 6mil skeleton. On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, it is.

    ? Srsly. Ok, I guess that 4 extra DPs is worth being relegated to a rapid striking Stamsorc.

    Ermagerd.

    The point is the sustain. A Redguard using a weapon spammable has better sustain than a Bosmer and they have the same DPS bonus of +2000 max stam. Simple fact. End of story.

    If you are using a weapon spammable, be it Rapid Strikes or Rending Slashes or Shrouded Daggers or Wrecking Blow or Focused Aim, you probably want to pick Redguard. If not, pick Bosmer.

    It's very simple.
  • Razorback174
    Razorback174
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, I hate them!
    Basically, what I got from this "racial rebalancing" is that all DC races are now god-tier.

    Everyone else? Pure, useless trash.

    My 4 Bretons are now buffed beyond OP in magic, my 2 Redguards aren't incredibly better, but still in a decent place.

    On the other hand, my 5 Bosmer and 4 Altmer characters have been gutted in the most lore-shattering way possible with Hawk's Eye and Spell Recharge. It's disgusting.

    Enjoy that "diversity" they kept promoting this change would bring.

    I've never seen this company fail so hard at meeting their original stated objective.
  • CurvedSwords123
    CurvedSwords123
    ✭✭✭
    No, I hate them!
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Xsorus wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Bosmer outsustains redguard, the supposed stam sustain race in at least 3 out of the 5 classes while having a speed bonus and resists. Yes the 258 stam regen is much more than you think in reality. The snare resistance is borderline useless especially when it is multiplicative. Every race but redguard has some sort of dmg mitigation or hp passive

    Bosmer has lost its flavor in a way by removing stealth detection radius reduction and stealth damage. Kinda strange that a tiny bosmer is just as noticable as a large orc or nord.

    Redguard is good on anything that uses a weapon skill as a main attack, so Wardens/Stam Sorcs/Stam DK

    And also....Magicka Sorc...right now you can make an absolutely beast most Magicka Sorc with Redguard.

    But bosmer is better for sustain (which redguard is supposed to excel at) and orc for damage for stam. With bosmer's and orc's high mobility, orc's tankyness and high dmg, and bosmer' high regen, why choose a redguard? Dont say the snare reduction passive. It turns a 40% snare into a 34% snare. And a 70% snare into a 59.5% snare. With most stam builds running shuffle/fm this is moot.

    For mag, I can agree with you somewhat, though you have to admit it seems a bit off. A stam race as a mag toon.
    Even so, Altmer has much more damage while having good stam sustain.

    You're better off with Redguard if you use a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Shrouded Daggers, Rending Slashes, Wrecking Blow, etc.). You're better off with Bosmer if you don't. Both still have excellent sustain for all stam builds.

    I can't say for PvP, but for PvE, I'd pick Redguard over Bosmer on a stamsorc and stamDK. Stamplars will see slightly better sustain as a Bosmer but the 8% cost reduction of Ballista for a Redguard is a factor as well. That 8% cost reduction on weapon ultimates may move the needle for some PvP builds as well.

    With the sustain, utility and resists bosmer gets, I see no reason to choose redguard over it. A bosmer, unless you are permablocking or sprinting will always have their regen ticking while a redguard needs a target to take full advantage.

    As I said elsewhere, I have actually tested Redguard vs. Bosmer on a variety of builds. If you are using a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Shrouded Daggers, or Wrecking Blow), Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer.

    Bosmer with Crushing Weapon:
    AtqRD1Z.png

    Redguard with Rapid Strikes:
    3Gywtpq.png

    In fact, on a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, even using Lavafoot food, it is not possible to sustain a full LA rotation on a 6mil skeleton. On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, it is.

    ? Srsly. Ok, I guess that 4 extra DPs is worth being relegated to a rapid striking Stamsorc.

    Ermagerd.

    The point is the sustain. A Redguard using a weapon spammable has better sustain than a Bosmer and they have the same DPS bonus of +2000 max stam. Simple fact. End of story.

    If you are using a weapon spammable, be it Rapid Strikes or Rending Slashes or Shrouded Daggers or Wrecking Blow or Focused Aim, you probably want to pick Redguard. If not, pick Bosmer.

    It's very simple.

    You posted the net 4 DPs difference, not me. They have the same sustain, except the Bosmer has more options in relation to class and skill choice. Stam Regen will scale with armour and buffs, adrenaline rush & martial training will not. The 15% snare reduction is a joke, while the roll dodge speed buff will be a useful tool. End of story. Speaking of Bosmers, the roll/pen thing is ridiculous. I support rolling that back for a stealth buff for Bosmers.
    Edited by CurvedSwords123 on February 19, 2019 1:20AM
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Yes, absolutely!
    Basically, what I got from this "racial rebalancing" is that all DC races are now god-tier.

    Everyone else? Pure, useless trash.

    My 4 Bretons are now buffed beyond OP in magic, my 2 Redguards aren't incredibly better, but still in a decent place.

    On the other hand, my 5 Bosmer and 4 Altmer characters have been gutted in the most lore-shattering way possible with Hawk's Eye and Spell Recharge. It's disgusting.

    Enjoy that "diversity" they kept promoting this change would bring.

    I've never seen this company fail so hard at meeting their original stated objective.

    Your choice of words says that you don't understand how close all this is... No race is God tier, none is trash. Sustain races are able to use blue food and increase their damage, while damage races can use regen food and increase their sustain. At the moment, the second option is slightly better (because regen food is overloaded), but it doesnt have to stay that way.
    PC EU

    All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!

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  • Mattock_Romulus
    Mattock_Romulus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some are nice, others are not.
    Nox_Noir wrote: »
    hjts2foi1ifl.jpg

    He probably dodge rolled into a lion and lost his arm...
  • Razorback174
    Razorback174
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, I hate them!
    Masel wrote: »
    Basically, what I got from this "racial rebalancing" is that all DC races are now god-tier.

    Everyone else? Pure, useless trash.

    My 4 Bretons are now buffed beyond OP in magic, my 2 Redguards aren't incredibly better, but still in a decent place.

    On the other hand, my 5 Bosmer and 4 Altmer characters have been gutted in the most lore-shattering way possible with Hawk's Eye and Spell Recharge. It's disgusting.

    Enjoy that "diversity" they kept promoting this change would bring.

    I've never seen this company fail so hard at meeting their original stated objective.

    Your choice of words says that you don't understand how close all this is... No race is God tier, none is trash. Sustain races are able to use blue food and increase their damage, while damage races can use regen food and increase their sustain. At the moment, the second option is slightly better (because regen food is overloaded), but it doesnt have to stay that way.

    As a mostly PvE player, what do I get from Hawk's Eye? From Spell Recharge?

    Oh, that's right, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Just 3 skillpoints that got freed up to be used elsewhere.

    Even a health bonus or any other sort of utility I could say would be useful in PvE, but these two? No way in hell.
  • Mattock_Romulus
    Mattock_Romulus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some are nice, others are not.
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    Giving High Elves a stamina racial is moronic.
    And after all the discussing, debating, hating and insulting we did last two weeks, ZOS decided to do... nothing.
    It's such a big middlefinger to decades of shaping a world. From a band of youngsters that can't even get a proper camera to their live LAN party. ZOS do not deserve the franchise they've been handed.

    Lore went out the window the moment Lawrence tendered his resignation. We'll probably have guns in this game by next year.

    Actually, that could work for an Altmer non-magical utility passive.

    15% chance on hit to pull out a revolver and shoot at your foe! Better than a useless Stamina recharge and it's not another Magicka perk, so it might just work.
    Edited by Mattock_Romulus on February 19, 2019 1:28AM
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Yes, absolutely!
    Masel wrote: »
    Basically, what I got from this "racial rebalancing" is that all DC races are now god-tier.

    Everyone else? Pure, useless trash.

    My 4 Bretons are now buffed beyond OP in magic, my 2 Redguards aren't incredibly better, but still in a decent place.

    On the other hand, my 5 Bosmer and 4 Altmer characters have been gutted in the most lore-shattering way possible with Hawk's Eye and Spell Recharge. It's disgusting.

    Enjoy that "diversity" they kept promoting this change would bring.

    I've never seen this company fail so hard at meeting their original stated objective.

    Your choice of words says that you don't understand how close all this is... No race is God tier, none is trash. Sustain races are able to use blue food and increase their damage, while damage races can use regen food and increase their sustain. At the moment, the second option is slightly better (because regen food is overloaded), but it doesnt have to stay that way.

    As a mostly PvE player, what do I get from Hawk's Eye? From Spell Recharge?

    Oh, that's right, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Just 3 skillpoints that got freed up to be used elsewhere.

    Even a health bonus or any other sort of utility I could say would be useful in PvE, but these two? No way in hell.

    Your recovery passive alone makes it huge buff for you and Bosmer very competitive, so what else do you want? 258 is amplified by up to 120% in pve, while the old passive applied to such a small value that it wasnt even noticable. I'm not saying the roll dogged passive is good, but you got a huge buff to your race right there that many here dont seem to see.
    PC EU

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  • DoobZ69
    DoobZ69
    ✭✭✭✭
    No, I hate them!
    Masel wrote: »
    Basically, what I got from this "racial rebalancing" is that all DC races are now god-tier.

    Everyone else? Pure, useless trash.

    My 4 Bretons are now buffed beyond OP in magic, my 2 Redguards aren't incredibly better, but still in a decent place.

    On the other hand, my 5 Bosmer and 4 Altmer characters have been gutted in the most lore-shattering way possible with Hawk's Eye and Spell Recharge. It's disgusting.

    Enjoy that "diversity" they kept promoting this change would bring.

    I've never seen this company fail so hard at meeting their original stated objective.

    Your choice of words says that you don't understand how close all this is... No race is God tier, none is trash. Sustain races are able to use blue food and increase their damage, while damage races can use regen food and increase their sustain. At the moment, the second option is slightly better (because regen food is overloaded), but it doesnt have to stay that way.

    As a mostly PvE player, what do I get from Hawk's Eye? From Spell Recharge?

    Oh, that's right, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Just 3 skillpoints that got freed up to be used elsewhere.

    Even a health bonus or any other sort of utility I could say would be useful in PvE, but these two? No way in hell.

    Don't worry about it. He's just a Class rep and not a race rep so he's got no idea what he's on about. If its balanced in DPS at top level then he's quite happy to tell you "you don't understand how close all this is". No other roles and play styles exist nor matter. Thats why ZOS said they will balance around all roles and didn't. So he's here defending them because he would lose the "class rep" status otherwise. Just like other companies which said "don't like it, don't play it" they are copying the same attitude. It's a win-win.

    PTS only exists to test the crown store. Does it work? Great, job done.
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Yes, absolutely!
    DoobZ69 wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    Basically, what I got from this "racial rebalancing" is that all DC races are now god-tier.

    Everyone else? Pure, useless trash.

    My 4 Bretons are now buffed beyond OP in magic, my 2 Redguards aren't incredibly better, but still in a decent place.

    On the other hand, my 5 Bosmer and 4 Altmer characters have been gutted in the most lore-shattering way possible with Hawk's Eye and Spell Recharge. It's disgusting.

    Enjoy that "diversity" they kept promoting this change would bring.

    I've never seen this company fail so hard at meeting their original stated objective.

    Your choice of words says that you don't understand how close all this is... No race is God tier, none is trash. Sustain races are able to use blue food and increase their damage, while damage races can use regen food and increase their sustain. At the moment, the second option is slightly better (because regen food is overloaded), but it doesnt have to stay that way.

    As a mostly PvE player, what do I get from Hawk's Eye? From Spell Recharge?

    Oh, that's right, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Just 3 skillpoints that got freed up to be used elsewhere.

    Even a health bonus or any other sort of utility I could say would be useful in PvE, but these two? No way in hell.

    Don't worry about it. He's just a Class rep and not a race rep so he's got no idea what he's on about. If its balanced in DPS at top level then he's quite happy to tell you "you don't understand how close all this is". No other roles and play styles exist nor matter. Thats why ZOS said they will balance around all roles and didn't. So he's here defending them because he would lose the "class rep" status otherwise. Just like other companies which said "don't like it, don't play it" they are copying the same attitude. It's a win-win.

    PTS only exists to test the crown store. Does it work? Great, job done.

    :smiley: nothing to say about this one. Pure logic right there.
    PC EU

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  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, I hate them!
    Masel wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    Basically, what I got from this "racial rebalancing" is that all DC races are now god-tier.

    Everyone else? Pure, useless trash.

    My 4 Bretons are now buffed beyond OP in magic, my 2 Redguards aren't incredibly better, but still in a decent place.

    On the other hand, my 5 Bosmer and 4 Altmer characters have been gutted in the most lore-shattering way possible with Hawk's Eye and Spell Recharge. It's disgusting.

    Enjoy that "diversity" they kept promoting this change would bring.

    I've never seen this company fail so hard at meeting their original stated objective.

    Your choice of words says that you don't understand how close all this is... No race is God tier, none is trash. Sustain races are able to use blue food and increase their damage, while damage races can use regen food and increase their sustain. At the moment, the second option is slightly better (because regen food is overloaded), but it doesnt have to stay that way.

    As a mostly PvE player, what do I get from Hawk's Eye? From Spell Recharge?

    Oh, that's right, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Just 3 skillpoints that got freed up to be used elsewhere.

    Even a health bonus or any other sort of utility I could say would be useful in PvE, but these two? No way in hell.

    Your recovery passive alone makes it huge buff for you and Bosmer very competitive, so what else do you want? 258 is amplified by up to 120% in pve, while the old passive applied to such a small value that it wasnt even noticable. I'm not saying the roll dogged passive is good, but you got a huge buff to your race right there that many here dont seem to see.

    @Masel The hunters eye is 100% pointless for PvE and guts a core identity trait for Bosmers, stealth. It's not useful in PvE at all and you coming on here say "well your other passives are useful" is just insulting. ALL of our passives should be useful, not SOME of them.

    How many posts have been made about this on the forums? And NOW you are coming on here surprised? How cloistered are you people?
  • Cillion3117
    Cillion3117
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, absolutely!
    My Breton's and Redguard's are good, so I'm good.
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    No, I hate them!
    Masel wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    All parses and math I have seen show that these races are all within a margin that can be put down to human error and chance at this point, and it baffles me how big of a deal these tiny differences are to many people. This is the first time I understand that you simply can't do it right. People will complain whatever change is coming, and it is quite difficult to filter out unbiased reasonable feedback.

    So fact that orc is somehow first place for any stamina class at averaged series of 20 parses for each class is within human error limits?

    Orc and dunmer are best parsers for a very specific reason, and that is the one that food buffs such as artaeum broth and dubious throne provide too much without a real tradeoff. With them, damage races can get both higher sustain and damage than the sustain counterparts.

    These debates are proof of people not seeing the bigger picture at this time. Orc and dunmer outparse them because sustain can be achieved without a more significant tradeoff, not because their stats are OP.

    Reducing their stats would decrease their stat density budget unjustifiably, because the issue lies elsewhere.

    So now orcs and dunmers parse best not because combat team did a poor job at balancing, but because pesky food buffs are suddenly overperforming. Devs worked in the sweat of their brow trying to balance those races, but that food buff, can't do anything about it... You see, food buff is a part of the picture, and if combat team couldn't account for that food buff, then it's a poor combat team. Food, recovery glyphs, jewelry enchantments, it is all a part of balancing effort, because, you know, it's all part of the game, it's their game, it's all laid out in front of them. Food buff wasn't sent down into ESO by martians, it's not some unaccountable factor. Why, khajiits were nerfed even though they had such an excuse - oh it's pesky Shadow overperforming, nerfing khajiits would reduce their stat density... shouldn't we look at bigger picture and see the problem in overbuffed mundus now? But no, they were nerfed just the same and lagging behind now.

    It's mind-boggling what fantastic excuses one can bring to justify the team's bad work. Sometimes that "don't rock the boat" policy goes too far.
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, I hate them!
    Masel wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    All parses and math I have seen show that these races are all within a margin that can be put down to human error and chance at this point, and it baffles me how big of a deal these tiny differences are to many people. This is the first time I understand that you simply can't do it right. People will complain whatever change is coming, and it is quite difficult to filter out unbiased reasonable feedback.

    So fact that orc is somehow first place for any stamina class at averaged series of 20 parses for each class is within human error limits?

    Orc and dunmer are best parsers for a very specific reason, and that is the one that food buffs such as artaeum broth and dubious throne provide too much without a real tradeoff. With them, damage races can get both higher sustain and damage than the sustain counterparts.

    These debates are proof of people not seeing the bigger picture at this time. Orc and dunmer outparse them because sustain can be achieved without a more significant tradeoff, not because their stats are OP.

    Reducing their stats would decrease their stat density budget unjustifiably, because the issue lies elsewhere.

    Ok, thanks and this now is somewhat fixed by the fact that blue food became more profitable due to CP changes? But in susmidts work his guild used blue food on all tests, and difference in sustain was compensated by using absorb stamina glyph instead of berserker one:
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

    And even if we talk about orc vs dunmer, 1000 HP+125 stamina+HP proc+sprint speed is much more valuable then extra 1875 magicka dunmer has. Btw in PVE magicka is almost of zero use to stamina builds, they use 1-2 magicka self-buffs which are easily sustained by base magicka or often no magicka skills at all:
    https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-nightblade-build-for-pve/

    So for anybody who will decide to create ultimate stamina character for any class it will be orc by huge margin. Is this balanced passives?
  • Azyle1
    Azyle1
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Masel wrote: »
    DoobZ69 wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    Basically, what I got from this "racial rebalancing" is that all DC races are now god-tier.

    Everyone else? Pure, useless trash.

    My 4 Bretons are now buffed beyond OP in magic, my 2 Redguards aren't incredibly better, but still in a decent place.

    On the other hand, my 5 Bosmer and 4 Altmer characters have been gutted in the most lore-shattering way possible with Hawk's Eye and Spell Recharge. It's disgusting.

    Enjoy that "diversity" they kept promoting this change would bring.

    I've never seen this company fail so hard at meeting their original stated objective.

    Your choice of words says that you don't understand how close all this is... No race is God tier, none is trash. Sustain races are able to use blue food and increase their damage, while damage races can use regen food and increase their sustain. At the moment, the second option is slightly better (because regen food is overloaded), but it doesnt have to stay that way.

    As a mostly PvE player, what do I get from Hawk's Eye? From Spell Recharge?

    Oh, that's right, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Just 3 skillpoints that got freed up to be used elsewhere.

    Even a health bonus or any other sort of utility I could say would be useful in PvE, but these two? No way in hell.

    Don't worry about it. He's just a Class rep and not a race rep so he's got no idea what he's on about. If its balanced in DPS at top level then he's quite happy to tell you "you don't understand how close all this is". No other roles and play styles exist nor matter. Thats why ZOS said they will balance around all roles and didn't. So he's here defending them because he would lose the "class rep" status otherwise. Just like other companies which said "don't like it, don't play it" they are copying the same attitude. It's a win-win.

    PTS only exists to test the crown store. Does it work? Great, job done.

    :smiley: nothing to say about this one. Pure logic right there.

    @Masel

    I agree with you here..

    However...

    Masel wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    All parses and math I have seen show that these races are all within a margin that can be put down to human error and chance at this point, and it baffles me how big of a deal these tiny differences are to many people. This is the first time I understand that you simply can't do it right. People will complain whatever change is coming, and it is quite difficult to filter out unbiased reasonable feedback.

    So fact that orc is somehow first place for any stamina class at averaged series of 20 parses for each class is within human error limits?

    Orc and dunmer are best parsers for a very specific reason, and that is the one that food buffs such as artaeum broth and dubious throne provide too much without a real tradeoff. With them, damage races can get both higher sustain and damage than the sustain counterparts.

    These debates are proof of people not seeing the bigger picture at this time. Orc and dunmer outparse them because sustain can be achieved without a more significant tradeoff, not because their stats are OP.

    Reducing their stats would decrease their stat density budget unjustifiably, because the issue lies elsewhere.

    So now orcs and dunmers parse best not because combat team did a poor job at balancing, but because pesky food buffs are suddenly overperforming. Devs worked in the sweat of their brow trying to balance those races, but that food buff, can't do anything about it... You see, food buff is a part of the picture, and if combat team couldn't account for that food buff, then it's a poor combat team. Food, recovery glyphs, jewelry enchantments, it is all a part of balancing effort, because, you know, it's all part of the game, it's their game, it's all laid out in front of them. Food buff wasn't sent down into ESO by martians, it's not some unaccountable factor. Why, khajiits were nerfed even though they had such an excuse - oh it's pesky Shadow overperforming, nerfing khajiits would reduce their stat density... shouldn't we look at bigger picture and see the problem in overbuffed mundus now? But no, they were nerfed just the same and lagging behind now.

    It's mind-boggling what fantastic excuses one can bring to justify the team's bad work. Sometimes that "don't rock the boat" policy goes too far.

    I'd like to see your response to this. Khajiits are sorta in a dumb spot. Viable? Sure. Trash? No.

    But.... they are clearly out dps'd by Dunmer and Orc for Stam... when before, they weren't even god-like.

    Like, please tell me what sense it makes to give Khajiit 10% more crit damage.. when DUNMER AND ORC HIT HARDER WITH CRITICAL HITS.

    I would like someone to explain that to me.

    Now, no, I am not saying "F this game", "Khajiit need big buffs!" But.. there is no logic there. At least, I cannot find logic as to how that makes sense.
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, I hate them!
    My Breton's and Redguard's are good, so I'm good.

    Redguards are fighting for 3rd-5th place for stamina dps choice, dependent on class, so it's hardly a "good" position.
  • CurvedSwords123
    CurvedSwords123
    ✭✭✭
    No, I hate them!
    My Breton's and Redguard's are good, so I'm good.

    Redguards are fighting for 3rd-5th place for stamina dps choice, dependent on class, so it's hardly a "good" position.

    If you stack Redguard passives against their competition in totality, they look like a training wheels for sustain race; obviously the lowest potential of the lot if this goes live as is.
  • Cillion3117
    Cillion3117
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, absolutely!
    Redguards are fighting for 3rd-5th place for stamina dps choice, dependent on class, so it's hardly a "good" position.

    Oh yeah, I forgot that the meta is the only thing that counts. Only the best of the best with the best will ever do!
    Please forgive. It won't happen again.
  • CurvedSwords123
    CurvedSwords123
    ✭✭✭
    No, I hate them!
    Redguards are fighting for 3rd-5th place for stamina dps choice, dependent on class, so it's hardly a "good" position.

    Oh yeah, I forgot that the meta is the only thing that counts. Only the best of the best with the best will ever do!
    Please forgive. It won't happen again.

    I think what he was getting at is "good" and "suboptimal" are not synonymous. You would get more useful passives and toughness from picking anything else.
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, I hate them!
    Redguards are fighting for 3rd-5th place for stamina dps choice, dependent on class, so it's hardly a "good" position.

    Oh yeah, I forgot that the meta is the only thing that counts. Only the best of the best with the best will ever do!
    Please forgive. It won't happen again.

    I am not trying to troll you in any way, I have stamden redguard myself. But redguard became one of the secondary choices for stamina dps after being race with reputation of best swordsman in all tamriel for at least 15 years.. this is not a good change in my opinion.
  • max_only
    max_only
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not really...
    Masel wrote: »
    DoobZ69 wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    Basically, what I got from this "racial rebalancing" is that all DC races are now god-tier.

    Everyone else? Pure, useless trash.

    My 4 Bretons are now buffed beyond OP in magic, my 2 Redguards aren't incredibly better, but still in a decent place.

    On the other hand, my 5 Bosmer and 4 Altmer characters have been gutted in the most lore-shattering way possible with Hawk's Eye and Spell Recharge. It's disgusting.

    Enjoy that "diversity" they kept promoting this change would bring.

    I've never seen this company fail so hard at meeting their original stated objective.

    Your choice of words says that you don't understand how close all this is... No race is God tier, none is trash. Sustain races are able to use blue food and increase their damage, while damage races can use regen food and increase their sustain. At the moment, the second option is slightly better (because regen food is overloaded), but it doesnt have to stay that way.

    As a mostly PvE player, what do I get from Hawk's Eye? From Spell Recharge?

    Oh, that's right, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Just 3 skillpoints that got freed up to be used elsewhere.

    Even a health bonus or any other sort of utility I could say would be useful in PvE, but these two? No way in hell.

    Don't worry about it. He's just a Class rep and not a race rep so he's got no idea what he's on about. If its balanced in DPS at top level then he's quite happy to tell you "you don't understand how close all this is". No other roles and play styles exist nor matter. Thats why ZOS said they will balance around all roles and didn't. So he's here defending them because he would lose the "class rep" status otherwise. Just like other companies which said "don't like it, don't play it" they are copying the same attitude. It's a win-win.

    PTS only exists to test the crown store. Does it work? Great, job done.

    :smiley: nothing to say about this one. Pure logic right there.

    @Masel none of the characters in your signature are Bosmer.

    It might be fun to quip on people, have you tried empathizing with them?

    No one is disputing how close parses are, because it turns out this game has more to offer than a training dummy. I know that’s hard to imagine, so take it slow. People actually utilize the pve content in this game outside of parses and progression trials. Strange I know. It’s a complete waste for Zos to even create environments, level design, character and plot when they could just have us stand still and dummy parse for 15$ a month.

    You want logic? How is it logical that an Imperial is better at stealth than a Bosmer? How it is logical that a Nord is equal in stealth to a Bosmer? How is it logical that Khajiit aren’t able to see hidden units better than everyone? How is it logical to have just 1 build that takes advantage of Bosmer racial to the fullest? There was a stated goal to promote diversity, what diverse builds do you foresee with a roll dodge passive like that? Roll dodge tanks? Roll dodge healers?
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • anadandy
    anadandy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Masel wrote: »
    All parses and math I have seen show that these races are all within a margin that can be put down to human error and chance at this point, and it baffles me how big of a deal these tiny differences are to many people. This is the first time I understand that you simply can't do it right. People will complain whatever change is coming, and it is quite difficult to filter out unbiased reasonable feedback.

    It baffles you how big a deal these "tiny differences" can make? It's not all about parses, or mathematics. Hunter's Eye is a crap passive from stem to stern and it guts Bosmer racial identity while giving them almost no toolkit outside of a niche PVP build. If y'all don't get it, how can we expect the devs to understand our feedback.
    Edited by anadandy on February 19, 2019 2:38AM
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