Are you happy with the racial changes that most likely will go live?

Cillion3117

Yes, absolutely!

It's ok to still play what you want and be effective. You can play the 2nd, 3rd, or 10th best race for a build and still have fun.
At least that's how I enjoy the game.

LiquidPony

Most of them look good!

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Bosmer outsustains redguard, the supposed stam sustain race in at least 3 out of the 5 classes while having a speed bonus and resists. Yes the 258 stam regen is much more than you think in reality. The snare resistance is borderline useless especially when it is multiplicative. Every race but redguard has some sort of dmg mitigation or hp passive

Bosmer has lost its flavor in a way by removing stealth detection radius reduction and stealth damage. Kinda strange that a tiny bosmer is just as noticable as a large orc or nord.

Redguard is good on anything that uses a weapon skill as a main attack, so Wardens/Stam Sorcs/Stam DK

And also....Magicka Sorc...right now you can make an absolutely beast most Magicka Sorc with Redguard.

But bosmer is better for sustain (which redguard is supposed to excel at) and orc for damage for stam. With bosmer's and orc's high mobility, orc's tankyness and high dmg, and bosmer' high regen, why choose a redguard? Dont say the snare reduction passive. It turns a 40% snare into a 34% snare. And a 70% snare into a 59.5% snare. With most stam builds running shuffle/fm this is moot.

For mag, I can agree with you somewhat, though you have to admit it seems a bit off. A stam race as a mag toon.
Even so, Altmer has much more damage while having good stam sustain.

You're better off with Redguard if you use a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Shrouded Daggers, Rending Slashes, Wrecking Blow, etc.). You're better off with Bosmer if you don't. Both still have excellent sustain for all stam builds.

I can't say for PvP, but for PvE, I'd pick Redguard over Bosmer on a stamsorc and stamDK. Stamplars will see slightly better sustain as a Bosmer but the 8% cost reduction of Ballista for a Redguard is a factor as well. That 8% cost reduction on weapon ultimates may move the needle for some PvP builds as well.

With the sustain, utility and resists bosmer gets, I see no reason to choose redguard over it. A bosmer, unless you are permablocking or sprinting will always have their regen ticking while a redguard needs a target to take full advantage.

As I said elsewhere, I have actually tested Redguard vs. Bosmer on a variety of builds. If you are using a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Shrouded Daggers, or Wrecking Blow), Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer.

Bosmer with Crushing Weapon:


Redguard with Rapid Strikes:


In fact, on a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, even using Lavafoot food, it is not possible to sustain a full LA rotation on a 6mil skeleton. On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, it is.

? Srsly. Ok, I guess that 4 extra DPs is worth being relegated to a rapid striking Stamsorc.

Ermagerd.

The point is the sustain. A Redguard using a weapon spammable has better sustain than a Bosmer and they have the same DPS bonus of +2000 max stam. Simple fact. End of story.

If you are using a weapon spammable, be it Rapid Strikes or Rending Slashes or Shrouded Daggers or Wrecking Blow or Focused Aim, you probably want to pick Redguard. If not, pick Bosmer.

It's very simple.

You posted the net 4 DPs difference, not me. They have the same sustain, except the Bosmer has more options in relation to class and skill choice. Stam Regen will scale with armour and buffs, adrenaline rush & martial training will not. The 15% snare reduction is a joke, while the roll dodge speed buff will be a useful tool. End of story. Speaking of Bosmers, the roll/pen thing is ridiculous. I support rolling that back for a stealth buff for Bosmers.

@CurvedSwords123

I'll try this again ...

Redguard and Bosmer have identical pure damage passives. Agreed? +2000 Max Stamina. That's it. If you set a Redguard and a Bosmer up the same way, with a rotation that they can both sustain, they'll do the same DPS.

The question at hand here is: are there cases in which Redguard sustain passives are more powerful than Bosmer +258 regen?

The answer is: yes.

Which is why I posted CMX parses that demonstrate the difference in stam regen/drain differential.

On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, the differential is about -180 stam per second on average. On a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, it's about -220 stam per second on average. This is including: Vampirism +10%, Medium Armor x 7 +28%, CP +15%, Major Endurance +20%, Daedric Protection +20%. So even with a x1.83 modifier on the Bosmer +258 stam regen, the Redguard passives are still stronger.

Ergo, the Redguard has stronger sustain.

In practice this means that a Redguard can sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Rapid Strikes. A Bosmer cannot sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Crushing Weapon or Rapid Strikes.

So when I said "If you are using a weapon spammable, Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer", and then followed that with CMX screenshots, those screenshots were meant to demonstrate the point that Redguards have better sustain than Bosmer when using a weapon spammabe. But I guess maybe that wasn't clear?

BlueRaven

No, I hate them!

When you look at the class devs comments like @Masel it becomes abundantly clear why the Bosmer loss of stealth change was not reversed. Our concerns were not the ones of high end trial groups or PvP players. Normal QoL matters are not important to them, we might as well not exist.

The class reps and developers are oblivious to normal players. Our complaints never stood a chance.

CurvedSwords123

No, I hate them!

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Bosmer outsustains redguard, the supposed stam sustain race in at least 3 out of the 5 classes while having a speed bonus and resists. Yes the 258 stam regen is much more than you think in reality. The snare resistance is borderline useless especially when it is multiplicative. Every race but redguard has some sort of dmg mitigation or hp passive

Bosmer has lost its flavor in a way by removing stealth detection radius reduction and stealth damage. Kinda strange that a tiny bosmer is just as noticable as a large orc or nord.

Redguard is good on anything that uses a weapon skill as a main attack, so Wardens/Stam Sorcs/Stam DK

And also....Magicka Sorc...right now you can make an absolutely beast most Magicka Sorc with Redguard.

But bosmer is better for sustain (which redguard is supposed to excel at) and orc for damage for stam. With bosmer's and orc's high mobility, orc's tankyness and high dmg, and bosmer' high regen, why choose a redguard? Dont say the snare reduction passive. It turns a 40% snare into a 34% snare. And a 70% snare into a 59.5% snare. With most stam builds running shuffle/fm this is moot.

For mag, I can agree with you somewhat, though you have to admit it seems a bit off. A stam race as a mag toon.
Even so, Altmer has much more damage while having good stam sustain.

You're better off with Redguard if you use a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Shrouded Daggers, Rending Slashes, Wrecking Blow, etc.). You're better off with Bosmer if you don't. Both still have excellent sustain for all stam builds.

I can't say for PvP, but for PvE, I'd pick Redguard over Bosmer on a stamsorc and stamDK. Stamplars will see slightly better sustain as a Bosmer but the 8% cost reduction of Ballista for a Redguard is a factor as well. That 8% cost reduction on weapon ultimates may move the needle for some PvP builds as well.

With the sustain, utility and resists bosmer gets, I see no reason to choose redguard over it. A bosmer, unless you are permablocking or sprinting will always have their regen ticking while a redguard needs a target to take full advantage.

As I said elsewhere, I have actually tested Redguard vs. Bosmer on a variety of builds. If you are using a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Shrouded Daggers, or Wrecking Blow), Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer.

Bosmer with Crushing Weapon:


Redguard with Rapid Strikes:


In fact, on a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, even using Lavafoot food, it is not possible to sustain a full LA rotation on a 6mil skeleton. On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, it is.

? Srsly. Ok, I guess that 4 extra DPs is worth being relegated to a rapid striking Stamsorc.

Ermagerd.

The point is the sustain. A Redguard using a weapon spammable has better sustain than a Bosmer and they have the same DPS bonus of +2000 max stam. Simple fact. End of story.

If you are using a weapon spammable, be it Rapid Strikes or Rending Slashes or Shrouded Daggers or Wrecking Blow or Focused Aim, you probably want to pick Redguard. If not, pick Bosmer.

It's very simple.

You posted the net 4 DPs difference, not me. They have the same sustain, except the Bosmer has more options in relation to class and skill choice. Stam Regen will scale with armour and buffs, adrenaline rush & martial training will not. The 15% snare reduction is a joke, while the roll dodge speed buff will be a useful tool. End of story. Speaking of Bosmers, the roll/pen thing is ridiculous. I support rolling that back for a stealth buff for Bosmers.

@CurvedSwords123

I'll try this again ...

Redguard and Bosmer have identical pure damage passives. Agreed? +2000 Max Stamina. That's it. If you set a Redguard and a Bosmer up the same way, with a rotation that they can sustain, they'll do the same DPS.

The question at hand here is: are there cases in which Redguard sustain passives are more powerful than Bosmer +258 regen?

The answer is: yes.

Which is why I posted CMX parses that demonstrate the difference in stam regen/drain differential.

On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, the differential is about -180 stam per second on average. On a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, it's about -220 stam per second on average.

Ergo, the Redguard has stronger sustain.

In practice this means that a Redguard can sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Rapid Strikes. A Bosmer cannot sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Crushing Weapon or Rapid Strikes.

So when I said "If you are using a weapon spammable, Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer", and then followed that with CMX screenshots, those screenshots were meant to demonstrate the point that Redguards have better sustain than Bosmer. But I guess maybe that wasn't clear?

It was completely clear, your point is inconsequential though. Asian god who is a more proven analyst than you said "Bosmer has better sustain than Redguards in most cases" and didn't even bother to add Redguard in his parse analysis. The best evidence you could provide, in the best case for, demonstrated a net difference of four DPs. I can easily chalk up a handful of heavy attacks to operator deficiency. What you have shown is an infenticimal sustain advantage for SOLO PARSES.
I wonder what the other parses looked liked with other classes btw?

-would you agree a pen bonus on a roll dodge (no matter how ridiculous) gives the Wood elf a burst advantage?
-would you agree poison resist and poisoned immunity gives them a toughness advantage?
-do you understand what I mean by a scaleable passive?
-would you rather have a speed boost on a roll, or an immaterial snare reduction you won't even feel?

Alcast's assessment of the upcoming RG is correct, your posts are utterly vapid.

rabidmyers

Some are nice, others are not.

argonians need some stuff

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

No, I hate them!

nope, bosmer loses stealth, Khajiit lose crit chance and now have to gear more for crit chance like everyone else, breton is magicka dps best, orc is now stam king, etc

paulychan

Idk. I run a dunmer magblade, a high elf sorc, warden Argo tank, dk tank argo, Breton heaplar... Is there a straight suburban race without passives? I'll take that cause math

Ratzkifal

Some are nice, others are not.

Nox_Noir wrote: »

@Nox_Noir Okay, you just made me burst into laughter in the middle of the night. If anyone else woke up from this, I'm going to blame you.

LiquidPony

Most of them look good!

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Bosmer outsustains redguard, the supposed stam sustain race in at least 3 out of the 5 classes while having a speed bonus and resists. Yes the 258 stam regen is much more than you think in reality. The snare resistance is borderline useless especially when it is multiplicative. Every race but redguard has some sort of dmg mitigation or hp passive

Bosmer has lost its flavor in a way by removing stealth detection radius reduction and stealth damage. Kinda strange that a tiny bosmer is just as noticable as a large orc or nord.

Redguard is good on anything that uses a weapon skill as a main attack, so Wardens/Stam Sorcs/Stam DK

And also....Magicka Sorc...right now you can make an absolutely beast most Magicka Sorc with Redguard.

But bosmer is better for sustain (which redguard is supposed to excel at) and orc for damage for stam. With bosmer's and orc's high mobility, orc's tankyness and high dmg, and bosmer' high regen, why choose a redguard? Dont say the snare reduction passive. It turns a 40% snare into a 34% snare. And a 70% snare into a 59.5% snare. With most stam builds running shuffle/fm this is moot.

For mag, I can agree with you somewhat, though you have to admit it seems a bit off. A stam race as a mag toon.
Even so, Altmer has much more damage while having good stam sustain.

You're better off with Redguard if you use a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Shrouded Daggers, Rending Slashes, Wrecking Blow, etc.). You're better off with Bosmer if you don't. Both still have excellent sustain for all stam builds.

I can't say for PvP, but for PvE, I'd pick Redguard over Bosmer on a stamsorc and stamDK. Stamplars will see slightly better sustain as a Bosmer but the 8% cost reduction of Ballista for a Redguard is a factor as well. That 8% cost reduction on weapon ultimates may move the needle for some PvP builds as well.

With the sustain, utility and resists bosmer gets, I see no reason to choose redguard over it. A bosmer, unless you are permablocking or sprinting will always have their regen ticking while a redguard needs a target to take full advantage.

As I said elsewhere, I have actually tested Redguard vs. Bosmer on a variety of builds. If you are using a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Shrouded Daggers, or Wrecking Blow), Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer.

Bosmer with Crushing Weapon:


Redguard with Rapid Strikes:


In fact, on a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, even using Lavafoot food, it is not possible to sustain a full LA rotation on a 6mil skeleton. On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, it is.

? Srsly. Ok, I guess that 4 extra DPs is worth being relegated to a rapid striking Stamsorc.

Ermagerd.

The point is the sustain. A Redguard using a weapon spammable has better sustain than a Bosmer and they have the same DPS bonus of +2000 max stam. Simple fact. End of story.

If you are using a weapon spammable, be it Rapid Strikes or Rending Slashes or Shrouded Daggers or Wrecking Blow or Focused Aim, you probably want to pick Redguard. If not, pick Bosmer.

It's very simple.

You posted the net 4 DPs difference, not me. They have the same sustain, except the Bosmer has more options in relation to class and skill choice. Stam Regen will scale with armour and buffs, adrenaline rush & martial training will not. The 15% snare reduction is a joke, while the roll dodge speed buff will be a useful tool. End of story. Speaking of Bosmers, the roll/pen thing is ridiculous. I support rolling that back for a stealth buff for Bosmers.

@CurvedSwords123

I'll try this again ...

Redguard and Bosmer have identical pure damage passives. Agreed? +2000 Max Stamina. That's it. If you set a Redguard and a Bosmer up the same way, with a rotation that they can sustain, they'll do the same DPS.

The question at hand here is: are there cases in which Redguard sustain passives are more powerful than Bosmer +258 regen?

The answer is: yes.

Which is why I posted CMX parses that demonstrate the difference in stam regen/drain differential.

On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, the differential is about -180 stam per second on average. On a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, it's about -220 stam per second on average.

Ergo, the Redguard has stronger sustain.

In practice this means that a Redguard can sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Rapid Strikes. A Bosmer cannot sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Crushing Weapon or Rapid Strikes.

So when I said "If you are using a weapon spammable, Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer", and then followed that with CMX screenshots, those screenshots were meant to demonstrate the point that Redguards have better sustain than Bosmer. But I guess maybe that wasn't clear?

It was completely clear, your point is inconsequential though. Asian god who is a more proven analyst than you said "Bosmer has better sustain than Redguards in most cases" and didn't even bother to add Redguard in his parse analysis. The best evidence you could provide, in the best case for, demonstrated a net difference of four DPs. I can easily chalk up a handful of heavy attacks to operator deficiency. I wonder what the other parses looked like with other classes btw?
-would you agree a pen bonus on a roll dodge (no matter how ridiculous) gives the Wood elf a burst advantage?
-would you agree poison resist and poisoned immunity gives them a toughness advantage?
-do you understand what I mean by scaleable passive?
-would you rather have a speed boost on a roll, or an immaterial snare reduction you won't even feel?

Alcast's assessment of the upcoming RG is correct, your posts are utterly vapid.

Th3asiangod's stam race comparison was on a stamblade. How is that even relevant to this discussion? Stamblades don't use weapon spammables. They use a grand total of 3 weapon skills in a normal rotation.

You don't seem to understand the underlying point here: Bosmer and Redguard DPS should be the same. Since you're parroting Th3asiangod's conclusions at me, maybe you should've actually listened when he said: "Bosmer results can also be used as Redguard results". They have the same DPS passives. In a stamblade test, where Redguard/Bosmer sustain is irrelevant when you can easily solo sustain a 6mil parse on an Orc or Dunmer, Redguard and Bosmer should do exactly the same DPS because they will use exactly the same setup with exactly the same rotation with exactly the same damage passives. This is elementary.

There are scenarios where Redguards have better sustain and there are scenarios where Bosmer have better sustain. Extremely straightforward, easy to deduce just from looking at the passives, and easy to test.

The roll dodge passive is irrelevant in PvE. The poison resistance is irrelevant in PvE.

I already demonstrated the effect of the scaling of +258 stamina regen in my prior post. It still results in less net sustain than Redguards have when using a weapon spammable. The Bosmer stam regen passive is boosted by 83% in my stamsorc parses (which is about as high as it gets in PvE, with the exception of a stamblade where you'd be at 88% with Minor Endurance).

This is a simple fact and I don't have any idea how to state it more clearly: if you are using a weapon spammable, Redguards have better sustain. From a pure end-game PvE min-maxing perspective, there are builds where Redguard is a better choice.

But really, you shouldn't believe me, and you shouldn't believe Th3asiangod, and you shouldn't believe Alcast. You should test it yourself and reach your own conclusions rather than just mindlessly repeating someone else's.

CurvedSwords123

No, I hate them!

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Bosmer outsustains redguard, the supposed stam sustain race in at least 3 out of the 5 classes while having a speed bonus and resists. Yes the 258 stam regen is much more than you think in reality. The snare resistance is borderline useless especially when it is multiplicative. Every race but redguard has some sort of dmg mitigation or hp passive

Bosmer has lost its flavor in a way by removing stealth detection radius reduction and stealth damage. Kinda strange that a tiny bosmer is just as noticable as a large orc or nord.

Redguard is good on anything that uses a weapon skill as a main attack, so Wardens/Stam Sorcs/Stam DK

And also....Magicka Sorc...right now you can make an absolutely beast most Magicka Sorc with Redguard.

But bosmer is better for sustain (which redguard is supposed to excel at) and orc for damage for stam. With bosmer's and orc's high mobility, orc's tankyness and high dmg, and bosmer' high regen, why choose a redguard? Dont say the snare reduction passive. It turns a 40% snare into a 34% snare. And a 70% snare into a 59.5% snare. With most stam builds running shuffle/fm this is moot.

For mag, I can agree with you somewhat, though you have to admit it seems a bit off. A stam race as a mag toon.
Even so, Altmer has much more damage while having good stam sustain.

You're better off with Redguard if you use a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Shrouded Daggers, Rending Slashes, Wrecking Blow, etc.). You're better off with Bosmer if you don't. Both still have excellent sustain for all stam builds.

I can't say for PvP, but for PvE, I'd pick Redguard over Bosmer on a stamsorc and stamDK. Stamplars will see slightly better sustain as a Bosmer but the 8% cost reduction of Ballista for a Redguard is a factor as well. That 8% cost reduction on weapon ultimates may move the needle for some PvP builds as well.

With the sustain, utility and resists bosmer gets, I see no reason to choose redguard over it. A bosmer, unless you are permablocking or sprinting will always have their regen ticking while a redguard needs a target to take full advantage.

As I said elsewhere, I have actually tested Redguard vs. Bosmer on a variety of builds. If you are using a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Shrouded Daggers, or Wrecking Blow), Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer.

Bosmer with Crushing Weapon:


Redguard with Rapid Strikes:


In fact, on a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, even using Lavafoot food, it is not possible to sustain a full LA rotation on a 6mil skeleton. On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, it is.

? Srsly. Ok, I guess that 4 extra DPs is worth being relegated to a rapid striking Stamsorc.

Ermagerd.

The point is the sustain. A Redguard using a weapon spammable has better sustain than a Bosmer and they have the same DPS bonus of +2000 max stam. Simple fact. End of story.

If you are using a weapon spammable, be it Rapid Strikes or Rending Slashes or Shrouded Daggers or Wrecking Blow or Focused Aim, you probably want to pick Redguard. If not, pick Bosmer.

It's very simple.

You posted the net 4 DPs difference, not me. They have the same sustain, except the Bosmer has more options in relation to class and skill choice. Stam Regen will scale with armour and buffs, adrenaline rush & martial training will not. The 15% snare reduction is a joke, while the roll dodge speed buff will be a useful tool. End of story. Speaking of Bosmers, the roll/pen thing is ridiculous. I support rolling that back for a stealth buff for Bosmers.

@CurvedSwords123

I'll try this again ...

Redguard and Bosmer have identical pure damage passives. Agreed? +2000 Max Stamina. That's it. If you set a Redguard and a Bosmer up the same way, with a rotation that they can sustain, they'll do the same DPS.

The question at hand here is: are there cases in which Redguard sustain passives are more powerful than Bosmer +258 regen?

The answer is: yes.

Which is why I posted CMX parses that demonstrate the difference in stam regen/drain differential.

On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, the differential is about -180 stam per second on average. On a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, it's about -220 stam per second on average.

Ergo, the Redguard has stronger sustain.

In practice this means that a Redguard can sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Rapid Strikes. A Bosmer cannot sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Crushing Weapon or Rapid Strikes.

So when I said "If you are using a weapon spammable, Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer", and then followed that with CMX screenshots, those screenshots were meant to demonstrate the point that Redguards have better sustain than Bosmer. But I guess maybe that wasn't clear?

It was completely clear, your point is inconsequential though. Asian god who is a more proven analyst than you said "Bosmer has better sustain than Redguards in most cases" and didn't even bother to add Redguard in his parse analysis. The best evidence you could provide, in the best case for, demonstrated a net difference of four DPs. I can easily chalk up a handful of heavy attacks to operator deficiency. I wonder what the other parses looked like with other classes btw?
-would you agree a pen bonus on a roll dodge (no matter how ridiculous) gives the Wood elf a burst advantage?
-would you agree poison resist and poisoned immunity gives them a toughness advantage?
-do you understand what I mean by scaleable passive?
-would you rather have a speed boost on a roll, or an immaterial snare reduction you won't even feel?

Alcast's assessment of the upcoming RG is correct, your posts are utterly vapid.

Th3asiangod's stam race comparison was on a stamblade. How is that even relevant to this discussion? Stamblades don't use weapon spammables. They use a grand total of 3 weapon skills in a normal rotation.

You don't seem to understand the underlying point here: Bosmer and Redguard DPS should be the same. Since you're parroting Th3asiangod's conclusions at me, maybe you should've actually listened when he said: "Bosmer results can also be used as Redguard results". They have the same DPS passives. In a stamblade test, where Redguard/Bosmer sustain is irrelevant when you can easily solo sustain a 6mil parse on an Orc or Dunmer, Redguard and Bosmer should do exactly the same DPS because they will use exactly the same setup with exactly the same rotation with exactly the same damage passives. This is elementary.

There are scenarios where Redguards have better sustain and there are scenarios where Bosmer have better sustain. Extremely straightforward, easy to deduce just from looking at the passives, and easy to test.

The roll dodge passive is irrelevant in PvE. The poison resistance is irrelevant in PvE.

I already demonstrated the effect of the scaling of +258 stamina regen in my prior post. It still results in less net sustain than Redguards have when using a weapon spammable. The Bosmer stam regen passive is boosted by 83% in my stamsorc parses (which is about as high as it gets in PvE, with the exception of a stamblade where you'd be at 88% with Minor Endurance).

This is a simple fact and I don't have any idea how to state it more clearly: if you are using a weapon spammable, Redguards have better sustain. From a pure end-game PvE min-maxing perspective, there are builds where Redguard is a better choice.

But really, you shouldn't believe me, and you shouldn't believe Th3asiangod, and you shouldn't believe Alcast. You should test it yourself and reach your own conclusions rather than just mindlessly repeating someone else's conclusions.

Don't make me lol, the purpose of the Stam NB is that is the top Stam performer. The correlation between Stam NB and stam race performance is painfully obvious. And drop it, you have stated your assertion that RG will sustain better by this amount on a solo
parse with weapon spammable about 5 times now. It's not a compex concept, it just doesn't matter, get over yourself. I did listen to what Asian god said and I quoted it verbatim, you being snide won't change that. I can apply a simple understanding of scaling and game mechanics to understand in most scenarios the Wood Elf is preferable. I can think about what is provided for a mere second and realize the woof elf has more versatility and will scale better in a group. Perhaps you understand this as well and that's why you won't address anything I said. But tell us again about ur WEP spammable findings...

JobooAGS

Some are nice, others are not.

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Bosmer outsustains redguard, the supposed stam sustain race in at least 3 out of the 5 classes while having a speed bonus and resists. Yes the 258 stam regen is much more than you think in reality. The snare resistance is borderline useless especially when it is multiplicative. Every race but redguard has some sort of dmg mitigation or hp passive

Bosmer has lost its flavor in a way by removing stealth detection radius reduction and stealth damage. Kinda strange that a tiny bosmer is just as noticable as a large orc or nord.

Redguard is good on anything that uses a weapon skill as a main attack, so Wardens/Stam Sorcs/Stam DK

And also....Magicka Sorc...right now you can make an absolutely beast most Magicka Sorc with Redguard.

But bosmer is better for sustain (which redguard is supposed to excel at) and orc for damage for stam. With bosmer's and orc's high mobility, orc's tankyness and high dmg, and bosmer' high regen, why choose a redguard? Dont say the snare reduction passive. It turns a 40% snare into a 34% snare. And a 70% snare into a 59.5% snare. With most stam builds running shuffle/fm this is moot.

For mag, I can agree with you somewhat, though you have to admit it seems a bit off. A stam race as a mag toon.
Even so, Altmer has much more damage while having good stam sustain.

You're better off with Redguard if you use a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Shrouded Daggers, Rending Slashes, Wrecking Blow, etc.). You're better off with Bosmer if you don't. Both still have excellent sustain for all stam builds.

I can't say for PvP, but for PvE, I'd pick Redguard over Bosmer on a stamsorc and stamDK. Stamplars will see slightly better sustain as a Bosmer but the 8% cost reduction of Ballista for a Redguard is a factor as well. That 8% cost reduction on weapon ultimates may move the needle for some PvP builds as well.

With the sustain, utility and resists bosmer gets, I see no reason to choose redguard over it. A bosmer, unless you are permablocking or sprinting will always have their regen ticking while a redguard needs a target to take full advantage.

As I said elsewhere, I have actually tested Redguard vs. Bosmer on a variety of builds. If you are using a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Shrouded Daggers, or Wrecking Blow), Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer.

Bosmer with Crushing Weapon:


Redguard with Rapid Strikes:


In fact, on a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, even using Lavafoot food, it is not possible to sustain a full LA rotation on a 6mil skeleton. On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, it is.

? Srsly. Ok, I guess that 4 extra DPs is worth being relegated to a rapid striking Stamsorc.

Ermagerd.

The point is the sustain. A Redguard using a weapon spammable has better sustain than a Bosmer and they have the same DPS bonus of +2000 max stam. Simple fact. End of story.

If you are using a weapon spammable, be it Rapid Strikes or Rending Slashes or Shrouded Daggers or Wrecking Blow or Focused Aim, you probably want to pick Redguard. If not, pick Bosmer.

It's very simple.

You posted the net 4 DPs difference, not me. They have the same sustain, except the Bosmer has more options in relation to class and skill choice. Stam Regen will scale with armour and buffs, adrenaline rush & martial training will not. The 15% snare reduction is a joke, while the roll dodge speed buff will be a useful tool. End of story. Speaking of Bosmers, the roll/pen thing is ridiculous. I support rolling that back for a stealth buff for Bosmers.

@CurvedSwords123

I'll try this again ...

Redguard and Bosmer have identical pure damage passives. Agreed? +2000 Max Stamina. That's it. If you set a Redguard and a Bosmer up the same way, with a rotation that they can sustain, they'll do the same DPS.

The question at hand here is: are there cases in which Redguard sustain passives are more powerful than Bosmer +258 regen?

The answer is: yes.

Which is why I posted CMX parses that demonstrate the difference in stam regen/drain differential.

On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, the differential is about -180 stam per second on average. On a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, it's about -220 stam per second on average.

Ergo, the Redguard has stronger sustain.

In practice this means that a Redguard can sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Rapid Strikes. A Bosmer cannot sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Crushing Weapon or Rapid Strikes.

So when I said "If you are using a weapon spammable, Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer", and then followed that with CMX screenshots, those screenshots were meant to demonstrate the point that Redguards have better sustain than Bosmer. But I guess maybe that wasn't clear?

It was completely clear, your point is inconsequential though. Asian god who is a more proven analyst than you said "Bosmer has better sustain than Redguards in most cases" and didn't even bother to add Redguard in his parse analysis. The best evidence you could provide, in the best case for, demonstrated a net difference of four DPs. I can easily chalk up a handful of heavy attacks to operator deficiency. I wonder what the other parses looked like with other classes btw?
-would you agree a pen bonus on a roll dodge (no matter how ridiculous) gives the Wood elf a burst advantage?
-would you agree poison resist and poisoned immunity gives them a toughness advantage?
-do you understand what I mean by scaleable passive?
-would you rather have a speed boost on a roll, or an immaterial snare reduction you won't even feel?

Alcast's assessment of the upcoming RG is correct, your posts are utterly vapid.

Th3asiangod's stam race comparison was on a stamblade. How is that even relevant to this discussion? Stamblades don't use weapon spammables. They use a grand total of 3 weapon skills in a normal rotation.

You don't seem to understand the underlying point here: Bosmer and Redguard DPS should be the same. Since you're parroting Th3asiangod's conclusions at me, maybe you should've actually listened when he said: "Bosmer results can also be used as Redguard results". They have the same DPS passives. In a stamblade test, where Redguard/Bosmer sustain is irrelevant when you can easily solo sustain a 6mil parse on an Orc or Dunmer, Redguard and Bosmer should do exactly the same DPS because they will use exactly the same setup with exactly the same rotation with exactly the same damage passives. This is elementary.

There are scenarios where Redguards have better sustain and there are scenarios where Bosmer have better sustain. Extremely straightforward, easy to deduce just from looking at the passives, and easy to test.

The roll dodge passive is irrelevant in PvE. The poison resistance is irrelevant in PvE.

I already demonstrated the effect of the scaling of +258 stamina regen in my prior post. It still results in less net sustain than Redguards have when using a weapon spammable. The Bosmer stam regen passive is boosted by 83% in my stamsorc parses (which is about as high as it gets in PvE, with the exception of a stamblade where you'd be at 88% with Minor Endurance).

This is a simple fact and I don't have any idea how to state it more clearly: if you are using a weapon spammable, Redguards have better sustain. From a pure end-game PvE min-maxing perspective, there are builds where Redguard is a better choice.

But really, you shouldn't believe me, and you shouldn't believe Th3asiangod, and you shouldn't believe Alcast. You should test it yourself and reach your own conclusions rather than just mindlessly repeating someone else's.

To play the devils advocate, the poison resistance is useful in 1st boss vhof, vso in general, and in many dungeons

CurvedSwords123

No, I hate them!

JobooAGS wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Bosmer outsustains redguard, the supposed stam sustain race in at least 3 out of the 5 classes while having a speed bonus and resists. Yes the 258 stam regen is much more than you think in reality. The snare resistance is borderline useless especially when it is multiplicative. Every race but redguard has some sort of dmg mitigation or hp passive

Bosmer has lost its flavor in a way by removing stealth detection radius reduction and stealth damage. Kinda strange that a tiny bosmer is just as noticable as a large orc or nord.

Redguard is good on anything that uses a weapon skill as a main attack, so Wardens/Stam Sorcs/Stam DK

And also....Magicka Sorc...right now you can make an absolutely beast most Magicka Sorc with Redguard.

But bosmer is better for sustain (which redguard is supposed to excel at) and orc for damage for stam. With bosmer's and orc's high mobility, orc's tankyness and high dmg, and bosmer' high regen, why choose a redguard? Dont say the snare reduction passive. It turns a 40% snare into a 34% snare. And a 70% snare into a 59.5% snare. With most stam builds running shuffle/fm this is moot.

For mag, I can agree with you somewhat, though you have to admit it seems a bit off. A stam race as a mag toon.
Even so, Altmer has much more damage while having good stam sustain.

You're better off with Redguard if you use a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Shrouded Daggers, Rending Slashes, Wrecking Blow, etc.). You're better off with Bosmer if you don't. Both still have excellent sustain for all stam builds.

I can't say for PvP, but for PvE, I'd pick Redguard over Bosmer on a stamsorc and stamDK. Stamplars will see slightly better sustain as a Bosmer but the 8% cost reduction of Ballista for a Redguard is a factor as well. That 8% cost reduction on weapon ultimates may move the needle for some PvP builds as well.

With the sustain, utility and resists bosmer gets, I see no reason to choose redguard over it. A bosmer, unless you are permablocking or sprinting will always have their regen ticking while a redguard needs a target to take full advantage.

As I said elsewhere, I have actually tested Redguard vs. Bosmer on a variety of builds. If you are using a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Shrouded Daggers, or Wrecking Blow), Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer.

Bosmer with Crushing Weapon:


Redguard with Rapid Strikes:


In fact, on a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, even using Lavafoot food, it is not possible to sustain a full LA rotation on a 6mil skeleton. On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, it is.

? Srsly. Ok, I guess that 4 extra DPs is worth being relegated to a rapid striking Stamsorc.

Ermagerd.

The point is the sustain. A Redguard using a weapon spammable has better sustain than a Bosmer and they have the same DPS bonus of +2000 max stam. Simple fact. End of story.

If you are using a weapon spammable, be it Rapid Strikes or Rending Slashes or Shrouded Daggers or Wrecking Blow or Focused Aim, you probably want to pick Redguard. If not, pick Bosmer.

It's very simple.

You posted the net 4 DPs difference, not me. They have the same sustain, except the Bosmer has more options in relation to class and skill choice. Stam Regen will scale with armour and buffs, adrenaline rush & martial training will not. The 15% snare reduction is a joke, while the roll dodge speed buff will be a useful tool. End of story. Speaking of Bosmers, the roll/pen thing is ridiculous. I support rolling that back for a stealth buff for Bosmers.

@CurvedSwords123

I'll try this again ...

Redguard and Bosmer have identical pure damage passives. Agreed? +2000 Max Stamina. That's it. If you set a Redguard and a Bosmer up the same way, with a rotation that they can sustain, they'll do the same DPS.

The question at hand here is: are there cases in which Redguard sustain passives are more powerful than Bosmer +258 regen?

The answer is: yes.

Which is why I posted CMX parses that demonstrate the difference in stam regen/drain differential.

On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, the differential is about -180 stam per second on average. On a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, it's about -220 stam per second on average.

Ergo, the Redguard has stronger sustain.

In practice this means that a Redguard can sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Rapid Strikes. A Bosmer cannot sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Crushing Weapon or Rapid Strikes.

So when I said "If you are using a weapon spammable, Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer", and then followed that with CMX screenshots, those screenshots were meant to demonstrate the point that Redguards have better sustain than Bosmer. But I guess maybe that wasn't clear?

It was completely clear, your point is inconsequential though. Asian god who is a more proven analyst than you said "Bosmer has better sustain than Redguards in most cases" and didn't even bother to add Redguard in his parse analysis. The best evidence you could provide, in the best case for, demonstrated a net difference of four DPs. I can easily chalk up a handful of heavy attacks to operator deficiency. I wonder what the other parses looked like with other classes btw?
-would you agree a pen bonus on a roll dodge (no matter how ridiculous) gives the Wood elf a burst advantage?
-would you agree poison resist and poisoned immunity gives them a toughness advantage?
-do you understand what I mean by scaleable passive?
-would you rather have a speed boost on a roll, or an immaterial snare reduction you won't even feel?

Alcast's assessment of the upcoming RG is correct, your posts are utterly vapid.

Th3asiangod's stam race comparison was on a stamblade. How is that even relevant to this discussion? Stamblades don't use weapon spammables. They use a grand total of 3 weapon skills in a normal rotation.

You don't seem to understand the underlying point here: Bosmer and Redguard DPS should be the same. Since you're parroting Th3asiangod's conclusions at me, maybe you should've actually listened when he said: "Bosmer results can also be used as Redguard results". They have the same DPS passives. In a stamblade test, where Redguard/Bosmer sustain is irrelevant when you can easily solo sustain a 6mil parse on an Orc or Dunmer, Redguard and Bosmer should do exactly the same DPS because they will use exactly the same setup with exactly the same rotation with exactly the same damage passives. This is elementary.

There are scenarios where Redguards have better sustain and there are scenarios where Bosmer have better sustain. Extremely straightforward, easy to deduce just from looking at the passives, and easy to test.

The roll dodge passive is irrelevant in PvE. The poison resistance is irrelevant in PvE.

I already demonstrated the effect of the scaling of +258 stamina regen in my prior post. It still results in less net sustain than Redguards have when using a weapon spammable. The Bosmer stam regen passive is boosted by 83% in my stamsorc parses (which is about as high as it gets in PvE, with the exception of a stamblade where you'd be at 88% with Minor Endurance).

This is a simple fact and I don't have any idea how to state it more clearly: if you are using a weapon spammable, Redguards have better sustain. From a pure end-game PvE min-maxing perspective, there are builds where Redguard is a better choice.

But really, you shouldn't believe me, and you shouldn't believe Th3asiangod, and you shouldn't believe Alcast. You should test it yourself and reach your own conclusions rather than just mindlessly repeating someone else's.

To play the devils advocate, the poison resistance is useful in 1st boss vhof, vso in general, and in many dungeons

He understands the woodelf technically offers more. No one is that clueless. He just thinks we should be happy because we have a non noticeable advantage on WEP skill spammable casts, on solo dummy parses.

LiquidPony

Most of them look good!

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Bosmer outsustains redguard, the supposed stam sustain race in at least 3 out of the 5 classes while having a speed bonus and resists. Yes the 258 stam regen is much more than you think in reality. The snare resistance is borderline useless especially when it is multiplicative. Every race but redguard has some sort of dmg mitigation or hp passive

Bosmer has lost its flavor in a way by removing stealth detection radius reduction and stealth damage. Kinda strange that a tiny bosmer is just as noticable as a large orc or nord.

Redguard is good on anything that uses a weapon skill as a main attack, so Wardens/Stam Sorcs/Stam DK

And also....Magicka Sorc...right now you can make an absolutely beast most Magicka Sorc with Redguard.

But bosmer is better for sustain (which redguard is supposed to excel at) and orc for damage for stam. With bosmer's and orc's high mobility, orc's tankyness and high dmg, and bosmer' high regen, why choose a redguard? Dont say the snare reduction passive. It turns a 40% snare into a 34% snare. And a 70% snare into a 59.5% snare. With most stam builds running shuffle/fm this is moot.

For mag, I can agree with you somewhat, though you have to admit it seems a bit off. A stam race as a mag toon.
Even so, Altmer has much more damage while having good stam sustain.

You're better off with Redguard if you use a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Shrouded Daggers, Rending Slashes, Wrecking Blow, etc.). You're better off with Bosmer if you don't. Both still have excellent sustain for all stam builds.

I can't say for PvP, but for PvE, I'd pick Redguard over Bosmer on a stamsorc and stamDK. Stamplars will see slightly better sustain as a Bosmer but the 8% cost reduction of Ballista for a Redguard is a factor as well. That 8% cost reduction on weapon ultimates may move the needle for some PvP builds as well.

With the sustain, utility and resists bosmer gets, I see no reason to choose redguard over it. A bosmer, unless you are permablocking or sprinting will always have their regen ticking while a redguard needs a target to take full advantage.

As I said elsewhere, I have actually tested Redguard vs. Bosmer on a variety of builds. If you are using a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Shrouded Daggers, or Wrecking Blow), Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer.

Bosmer with Crushing Weapon:


Redguard with Rapid Strikes:


In fact, on a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, even using Lavafoot food, it is not possible to sustain a full LA rotation on a 6mil skeleton. On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, it is.

? Srsly. Ok, I guess that 4 extra DPs is worth being relegated to a rapid striking Stamsorc.

Ermagerd.

The point is the sustain. A Redguard using a weapon spammable has better sustain than a Bosmer and they have the same DPS bonus of +2000 max stam. Simple fact. End of story.

If you are using a weapon spammable, be it Rapid Strikes or Rending Slashes or Shrouded Daggers or Wrecking Blow or Focused Aim, you probably want to pick Redguard. If not, pick Bosmer.

It's very simple.

You posted the net 4 DPs difference, not me. They have the same sustain, except the Bosmer has more options in relation to class and skill choice. Stam Regen will scale with armour and buffs, adrenaline rush & martial training will not. The 15% snare reduction is a joke, while the roll dodge speed buff will be a useful tool. End of story. Speaking of Bosmers, the roll/pen thing is ridiculous. I support rolling that back for a stealth buff for Bosmers.

@CurvedSwords123

I'll try this again ...

Redguard and Bosmer have identical pure damage passives. Agreed? +2000 Max Stamina. That's it. If you set a Redguard and a Bosmer up the same way, with a rotation that they can sustain, they'll do the same DPS.

The question at hand here is: are there cases in which Redguard sustain passives are more powerful than Bosmer +258 regen?

The answer is: yes.

Which is why I posted CMX parses that demonstrate the difference in stam regen/drain differential.

On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, the differential is about -180 stam per second on average. On a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, it's about -220 stam per second on average.

Ergo, the Redguard has stronger sustain.

In practice this means that a Redguard can sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Rapid Strikes. A Bosmer cannot sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Crushing Weapon or Rapid Strikes.

So when I said "If you are using a weapon spammable, Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer", and then followed that with CMX screenshots, those screenshots were meant to demonstrate the point that Redguards have better sustain than Bosmer. But I guess maybe that wasn't clear?

It was completely clear, your point is inconsequential though. Asian god who is a more proven analyst than you said "Bosmer has better sustain than Redguards in most cases" and didn't even bother to add Redguard in his parse analysis. The best evidence you could provide, in the best case for, demonstrated a net difference of four DPs. I can easily chalk up a handful of heavy attacks to operator deficiency. I wonder what the other parses looked like with other classes btw?
-would you agree a pen bonus on a roll dodge (no matter how ridiculous) gives the Wood elf a burst advantage?
-would you agree poison resist and poisoned immunity gives them a toughness advantage?
-do you understand what I mean by scaleable passive?
-would you rather have a speed boost on a roll, or an immaterial snare reduction you won't even feel?

Alcast's assessment of the upcoming RG is correct, your posts are utterly vapid.

Th3asiangod's stam race comparison was on a stamblade. How is that even relevant to this discussion? Stamblades don't use weapon spammables. They use a grand total of 3 weapon skills in a normal rotation.

You don't seem to understand the underlying point here: Bosmer and Redguard DPS should be the same. Since you're parroting Th3asiangod's conclusions at me, maybe you should've actually listened when he said: "Bosmer results can also be used as Redguard results". They have the same DPS passives. In a stamblade test, where Redguard/Bosmer sustain is irrelevant when you can easily solo sustain a 6mil parse on an Orc or Dunmer, Redguard and Bosmer should do exactly the same DPS because they will use exactly the same setup with exactly the same rotation with exactly the same damage passives. This is elementary.

There are scenarios where Redguards have better sustain and there are scenarios where Bosmer have better sustain. Extremely straightforward, easy to deduce just from looking at the passives, and easy to test.

The roll dodge passive is irrelevant in PvE. The poison resistance is irrelevant in PvE.

I already demonstrated the effect of the scaling of +258 stamina regen in my prior post. It still results in less net sustain than Redguards have when using a weapon spammable. The Bosmer stam regen passive is boosted by 83% in my stamsorc parses (which is about as high as it gets in PvE, with the exception of a stamblade where you'd be at 88% with Minor Endurance).

This is a simple fact and I don't have any idea how to state it more clearly: if you are using a weapon spammable, Redguards have better sustain. From a pure end-game PvE min-maxing perspective, there are builds where Redguard is a better choice.

But really, you shouldn't believe me, and you shouldn't believe Th3asiangod, and you shouldn't believe Alcast. You should test it yourself and reach your own conclusions rather than just mindlessly repeating someone else's conclusions.

Don't make me lol, the purpose of the Stam NB is that is the top Stam performer. The correlation between Stam NB and stam race performance is painfully obvious. I did listen to what Asian god said and I quoted it verbatim, you being snide won't change that. I can apply a simple understanding of scaling and game mechanics to understand in most scenarios the Wood Elf is preferable. I can think about what is provided for a mere second and realize the woof elf has more versatility and will scale better in a group. Perhaps you understand this as well and that's why you won't address anything I said.

The only way that a Bosmer will "scale better in a group" is via a Warden Healer with Enchanted Growth, which will grant Minor Endurance and boost their regen by a whopping 25.8 (which still doesn't cover the spread; a Redguard stamsorc will still have better sustain than a Bosmer stamsorc even if you add Minor Endurance).

Stamblade tests apply to stamblades. It is unbelievably stupid to extrapolate those results to some other class.

If we're talking PvE stamblades, Bosmer and Redguards are both trashcans and don't hold a candle to Orcs or Dunmer or even Khajiit. Again, totally irrelevant to this conversation, which from the very first comment I made was about builds that use weapon spammables. Stamblade is literally the worst possible PvE build for a Redguard going forward, because they have the best sustain, they use very few weapon skills, and they don't use a weapon ultimate.

Kalle_Demos

No, I hate them!

Masel wrote: »

All parses and math I have seen show that these races are all within a margin that can be put down to human error and chance at this point, and it baffles me how big of a deal these tiny differences are to many people. This is the first time I understand that you simply can't do it right. People will complain whatever change is coming, and it is quite difficult to filter out unbiased reasonable feedback.

Wow. Players have been on every area in this forum and other media voicing their criticisms and laying out very detailed and constructive suggestions, feedback and dialog for what many consider serious issues in this game for WEEKS. Class Reps and ZOS really don't pay any attention to their own community and customers do they?

You know, this week depending on where the racials went I was going to Pre-Order Elsweyr and purchase that noice Telvanni Mushroom Tower. Now after only recently joining the forums and seeing even a small part of this process close up I'm ending my subscription and taking my money where Devs don't treat their customers like crap.

CurvedSwords123

No, I hate them!

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Bosmer outsustains redguard, the supposed stam sustain race in at least 3 out of the 5 classes while having a speed bonus and resists. Yes the 258 stam regen is much more than you think in reality. The snare resistance is borderline useless especially when it is multiplicative. Every race but redguard has some sort of dmg mitigation or hp passive

Bosmer has lost its flavor in a way by removing stealth detection radius reduction and stealth damage. Kinda strange that a tiny bosmer is just as noticable as a large orc or nord.

Redguard is good on anything that uses a weapon skill as a main attack, so Wardens/Stam Sorcs/Stam DK

And also....Magicka Sorc...right now you can make an absolutely beast most Magicka Sorc with Redguard.

But bosmer is better for sustain (which redguard is supposed to excel at) and orc for damage for stam. With bosmer's and orc's high mobility, orc's tankyness and high dmg, and bosmer' high regen, why choose a redguard? Dont say the snare reduction passive. It turns a 40% snare into a 34% snare. And a 70% snare into a 59.5% snare. With most stam builds running shuffle/fm this is moot.

For mag, I can agree with you somewhat, though you have to admit it seems a bit off. A stam race as a mag toon.
Even so, Altmer has much more damage while having good stam sustain.

You're better off with Redguard if you use a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Shrouded Daggers, Rending Slashes, Wrecking Blow, etc.). You're better off with Bosmer if you don't. Both still have excellent sustain for all stam builds.

I can't say for PvP, but for PvE, I'd pick Redguard over Bosmer on a stamsorc and stamDK. Stamplars will see slightly better sustain as a Bosmer but the 8% cost reduction of Ballista for a Redguard is a factor as well. That 8% cost reduction on weapon ultimates may move the needle for some PvP builds as well.

With the sustain, utility and resists bosmer gets, I see no reason to choose redguard over it. A bosmer, unless you are permablocking or sprinting will always have their regen ticking while a redguard needs a target to take full advantage.

As I said elsewhere, I have actually tested Redguard vs. Bosmer on a variety of builds. If you are using a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Shrouded Daggers, or Wrecking Blow), Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer.

Bosmer with Crushing Weapon:


Redguard with Rapid Strikes:


In fact, on a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, even using Lavafoot food, it is not possible to sustain a full LA rotation on a 6mil skeleton. On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, it is.

? Srsly. Ok, I guess that 4 extra DPs is worth being relegated to a rapid striking Stamsorc.

Ermagerd.

The point is the sustain. A Redguard using a weapon spammable has better sustain than a Bosmer and they have the same DPS bonus of +2000 max stam. Simple fact. End of story.

If you are using a weapon spammable, be it Rapid Strikes or Rending Slashes or Shrouded Daggers or Wrecking Blow or Focused Aim, you probably want to pick Redguard. If not, pick Bosmer.

It's very simple.

You posted the net 4 DPs difference, not me. They have the same sustain, except the Bosmer has more options in relation to class and skill choice. Stam Regen will scale with armour and buffs, adrenaline rush & martial training will not. The 15% snare reduction is a joke, while the roll dodge speed buff will be a useful tool. End of story. Speaking of Bosmers, the roll/pen thing is ridiculous. I support rolling that back for a stealth buff for Bosmers.

@CurvedSwords123

I'll try this again ...

Redguard and Bosmer have identical pure damage passives. Agreed? +2000 Max Stamina. That's it. If you set a Redguard and a Bosmer up the same way, with a rotation that they can sustain, they'll do the same DPS.

The question at hand here is: are there cases in which Redguard sustain passives are more powerful than Bosmer +258 regen?

The answer is: yes.

Which is why I posted CMX parses that demonstrate the difference in stam regen/drain differential.

On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, the differential is about -180 stam per second on average. On a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, it's about -220 stam per second on average.

Ergo, the Redguard has stronger sustain.

In practice this means that a Redguard can sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Rapid Strikes. A Bosmer cannot sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Crushing Weapon or Rapid Strikes.

So when I said "If you are using a weapon spammable, Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer", and then followed that with CMX screenshots, those screenshots were meant to demonstrate the point that Redguards have better sustain than Bosmer. But I guess maybe that wasn't clear?

It was completely clear, your point is inconsequential though. Asian god who is a more proven analyst than you said "Bosmer has better sustain than Redguards in most cases" and didn't even bother to add Redguard in his parse analysis. The best evidence you could provide, in the best case for, demonstrated a net difference of four DPs. I can easily chalk up a handful of heavy attacks to operator deficiency. I wonder what the other parses looked like with other classes btw?
-would you agree a pen bonus on a roll dodge (no matter how ridiculous) gives the Wood elf a burst advantage?
-would you agree poison resist and poisoned immunity gives them a toughness advantage?
-do you understand what I mean by scaleable passive?
-would you rather have a speed boost on a roll, or an immaterial snare reduction you won't even feel?

Alcast's assessment of the upcoming RG is correct, your posts are utterly vapid.

Th3asiangod's stam race comparison was on a stamblade. How is that even relevant to this discussion? Stamblades don't use weapon spammables. They use a grand total of 3 weapon skills in a normal rotation.

You don't seem to understand the underlying point here: Bosmer and Redguard DPS should be the same. Since you're parroting Th3asiangod's conclusions at me, maybe you should've actually listened when he said: "Bosmer results can also be used as Redguard results". They have the same DPS passives. In a stamblade test, where Redguard/Bosmer sustain is irrelevant when you can easily solo sustain a 6mil parse on an Orc or Dunmer, Redguard and Bosmer should do exactly the same DPS because they will use exactly the same setup with exactly the same rotation with exactly the same damage passives. This is elementary.

There are scenarios where Redguards have better sustain and there are scenarios where Bosmer have better sustain. Extremely straightforward, easy to deduce just from looking at the passives, and easy to test.

The roll dodge passive is irrelevant in PvE. The poison resistance is irrelevant in PvE.

I already demonstrated the effect of the scaling of +258 stamina regen in my prior post. It still results in less net sustain than Redguards have when using a weapon spammable. The Bosmer stam regen passive is boosted by 83% in my stamsorc parses (which is about as high as it gets in PvE, with the exception of a stamblade where you'd be at 88% with Minor Endurance).

This is a simple fact and I don't have any idea how to state it more clearly: if you are using a weapon spammable, Redguards have better sustain. From a pure end-game PvE min-maxing perspective, there are builds where Redguard is a better choice.

But really, you shouldn't believe me, and you shouldn't believe Th3asiangod, and you shouldn't believe Alcast. You should test it yourself and reach your own conclusions rather than just mindlessly repeating someone else's conclusions.

Don't make me lol, the purpose of the Stam NB is that is the top Stam performer. The correlation between Stam NB and stam race performance is painfully obvious. I did listen to what Asian god said and I quoted it verbatim, you being snide won't change that. I can apply a simple understanding of scaling and game mechanics to understand in most scenarios the Wood Elf is preferable. I can think about what is provided for a mere second and realize the woof elf has more versatility and will scale better in a group. Perhaps you understand this as well and that's why you won't address anything I said.

The only way that a Bosmer will "scale better in a group" is via a Warden Healer with Enchanted Growth, which will grant Minor Endurance and boost their regen by a whopping 25.8 (which still doesn't cover the spread; a Redguard stamsorc will still have better sustain than a Bosmer stamsorc even if you add Minor Endurance).

Stamblade tests apply to stamblades. It is unbelievably stupid to extrapolate those results to some other class.

If we're talking PvE stamblades, Bosmer and Redguards are both trashcans and don't hold a candle to Orcs or Dunmer or even Khajiit. Again, totally irrelevant to this conversation, which from the very first comment I made was about builds that use weapon spammables. Stamblade is literally the worst possible PvE build for a Redguard going forward, because they have the best sustain, they use very few weapon skills, and they don't use a weapon ultimate.

What's unbelievably stupid is not realizing Stam NB is representative of Stam classes with their own skills, and as the high water mark for Stam dps. I don't believe for a second endurance buffs won't tip the favour for woof elf in a group environment, and neither do you, you are just dithering now. I am talking about wholistic racial benefit this patch will provide, in a comparitive sense. My post history is clear in that regard. For the last time your findings for this niche advantage are inconsequential. I feel completely confident trusting Alcast's analysis and so should you.

CurvedSwords123

No, I hate them!

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

All parses and math I have seen show that these races are all within a margin that can be put down to human error and chance at this point, and it baffles me how big of a deal these tiny differences are to many people. This is the first time I understand that you simply can't do it right. People will complain whatever change is coming, and it is quite difficult to filter out unbiased reasonable feedback.

Wow. Players have been on every area in this forum and other media voicing their criticisms and laying out very detailed and constructive suggestions, feedback and dialog for what many consider serious issues in this game for WEEKS. Class Reps and ZOS really don't pay any attention to their own community and customers do they?

You know, this week depending on where the racials went I was going to Pre-Order Elsweyr and purchase that noice Telvanni Mushroom Tower. Now after only recently joining the forums and seeing even a small part of this process close up I'm ending my subscription and taking my money where Devs don't treat their customers like crap.

I agree. I'm not buying wraithstone or elsewyr.

CurvedSwords123

No, I hate them!

Woof elf will still be a great choice for Stam NB btw.

Dojohoda

My interest is piqued. My comment is from a specific point of view:

As a magblade of all races that offer magicka buffs, the removal of elemental buffs in favor of spell damage will offer something useful for magblade's magic damage class skills. That's just an opinion; I have not tested it on PTS.

My current Vet PVP magblade is a Dunmer using dual wield and resto. I'm curious if the added weapon damage will improve the impact of my light and heavy attacks with swords. I will find out in a few days, right?

zyk

No, I hate them!

Masel wrote: »

All parses and math I have seen show that these races are all within a margin that can be put down to human error and chance at this point, and it baffles me how big of a deal these tiny differences are to many people. This is the first time I understand that you simply can't do it right. People will complain whatever change is coming, and it is quite difficult to filter out unbiased reasonable feedback.

That's because you've missed the point the entire time.

This was never about combat parity to most players. ZOS is retroactively changing the outcome of important decisions players made in regards to the theme of their characters on creation.

Some of us put a lot of thought into that and as time went on grew attached to the character(s) we had given life to through these choices.

I can't believe how tone deaf ZOS and its class reps are.

I very much resent how ZOS has changed my Dunmer. [edited to remove bashing]

Ratzkifal

Some are nice, others are not.

Bosmer: "Is this an out of season april fools joke?"

ZOS: "Do you not have Khajiit?"

Cundu_Ertur

No, I hate them!

BlueRaven wrote: »

When you look at the class devs comments like @Masel it becomes abundantly clear why the Bosmer loss of stealth change was not reversed. Our concerns were not the ones of high end trial groups or PvP players. Normal QoL matters are not important to them, we might as well not exist.

The class reps and developers are oblivious to normal players. Our complaints never stood a chance.

Agreed. It's as if we aren't even here.

Cundu_Ertur

No, I hate them!

Masel wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

Basically, what I got from this "racial rebalancing" is that all DC races are now god-tier.

Everyone else? Pure, useless trash.

My 4 Bretons are now buffed beyond OP in magic, my 2 Redguards aren't incredibly better, but still in a decent place.

On the other hand, my 5 Bosmer and 4 Altmer characters have been gutted in the most lore-shattering way possible with Hawk's Eye and Spell Recharge. It's disgusting.

Enjoy that "diversity" they kept promoting this change would bring.

I've never seen this company fail so hard at meeting their original stated objective.

Your choice of words says that you don't understand how close all this is... No race is God tier, none is trash. Sustain races are able to use blue food and increase their damage, while damage races can use regen food and increase their sustain. At the moment, the second option is slightly better (because regen food is overloaded), but it doesnt have to stay that way.

As a mostly PvE player, what do I get from Hawk's Eye? From Spell Recharge?

Oh, that's right, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Just 3 skillpoints that got freed up to be used elsewhere.

Even a health bonus or any other sort of utility I could say would be useful in PvE, but these two? No way in hell.

Your recovery passive alone makes it huge buff for you and Bosmer very competitive, so what else do you want? 258 is amplified by up to 120% in pve, while the old passive applied to such a small value that it wasnt even noticable. I'm not saying the roll dogged passive is good, but you got a huge buff to your race right there that many here dont seem to see.

@Masel We want the stealth that Bosmer have always had, as in actual hiding bonus not the useless detection that is 1) only possible in PVP and 2) pretty much useless even there. Bosmers have ALWAYS been recommended as thieves and always been particularly good at it (along with Khajiit), but this new change makes them guards. And we keep trying to explain, and all you want to do is run numbers. It isn't about the damn numbers. It's about the lore.

The 4th Bosmer passive may as well not exist, it's garbage.

LiquidPony

Most of them look good!

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Bosmer outsustains redguard, the supposed stam sustain race in at least 3 out of the 5 classes while having a speed bonus and resists. Yes the 258 stam regen is much more than you think in reality. The snare resistance is borderline useless especially when it is multiplicative. Every race but redguard has some sort of dmg mitigation or hp passive

Bosmer has lost its flavor in a way by removing stealth detection radius reduction and stealth damage. Kinda strange that a tiny bosmer is just as noticable as a large orc or nord.

Redguard is good on anything that uses a weapon skill as a main attack, so Wardens/Stam Sorcs/Stam DK

And also....Magicka Sorc...right now you can make an absolutely beast most Magicka Sorc with Redguard.

But bosmer is better for sustain (which redguard is supposed to excel at) and orc for damage for stam. With bosmer's and orc's high mobility, orc's tankyness and high dmg, and bosmer' high regen, why choose a redguard? Dont say the snare reduction passive. It turns a 40% snare into a 34% snare. And a 70% snare into a 59.5% snare. With most stam builds running shuffle/fm this is moot.

For mag, I can agree with you somewhat, though you have to admit it seems a bit off. A stam race as a mag toon.
Even so, Altmer has much more damage while having good stam sustain.

You're better off with Redguard if you use a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Shrouded Daggers, Rending Slashes, Wrecking Blow, etc.). You're better off with Bosmer if you don't. Both still have excellent sustain for all stam builds.

I can't say for PvP, but for PvE, I'd pick Redguard over Bosmer on a stamsorc and stamDK. Stamplars will see slightly better sustain as a Bosmer but the 8% cost reduction of Ballista for a Redguard is a factor as well. That 8% cost reduction on weapon ultimates may move the needle for some PvP builds as well.

With the sustain, utility and resists bosmer gets, I see no reason to choose redguard over it. A bosmer, unless you are permablocking or sprinting will always have their regen ticking while a redguard needs a target to take full advantage.

As I said elsewhere, I have actually tested Redguard vs. Bosmer on a variety of builds. If you are using a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Shrouded Daggers, or Wrecking Blow), Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer.

Bosmer with Crushing Weapon:


Redguard with Rapid Strikes:


In fact, on a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, even using Lavafoot food, it is not possible to sustain a full LA rotation on a 6mil skeleton. On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, it is.

? Srsly. Ok, I guess that 4 extra DPs is worth being relegated to a rapid striking Stamsorc.

Ermagerd.

The point is the sustain. A Redguard using a weapon spammable has better sustain than a Bosmer and they have the same DPS bonus of +2000 max stam. Simple fact. End of story.

If you are using a weapon spammable, be it Rapid Strikes or Rending Slashes or Shrouded Daggers or Wrecking Blow or Focused Aim, you probably want to pick Redguard. If not, pick Bosmer.

It's very simple.

You posted the net 4 DPs difference, not me. They have the same sustain, except the Bosmer has more options in relation to class and skill choice. Stam Regen will scale with armour and buffs, adrenaline rush & martial training will not. The 15% snare reduction is a joke, while the roll dodge speed buff will be a useful tool. End of story. Speaking of Bosmers, the roll/pen thing is ridiculous. I support rolling that back for a stealth buff for Bosmers.

@CurvedSwords123

I'll try this again ...

Redguard and Bosmer have identical pure damage passives. Agreed? +2000 Max Stamina. That's it. If you set a Redguard and a Bosmer up the same way, with a rotation that they can sustain, they'll do the same DPS.

The question at hand here is: are there cases in which Redguard sustain passives are more powerful than Bosmer +258 regen?

The answer is: yes.

Which is why I posted CMX parses that demonstrate the difference in stam regen/drain differential.

On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, the differential is about -180 stam per second on average. On a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, it's about -220 stam per second on average.

Ergo, the Redguard has stronger sustain.

In practice this means that a Redguard can sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Rapid Strikes. A Bosmer cannot sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Crushing Weapon or Rapid Strikes.

So when I said "If you are using a weapon spammable, Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer", and then followed that with CMX screenshots, those screenshots were meant to demonstrate the point that Redguards have better sustain than Bosmer. But I guess maybe that wasn't clear?

It was completely clear, your point is inconsequential though. Asian god who is a more proven analyst than you said "Bosmer has better sustain than Redguards in most cases" and didn't even bother to add Redguard in his parse analysis. The best evidence you could provide, in the best case for, demonstrated a net difference of four DPs. I can easily chalk up a handful of heavy attacks to operator deficiency. I wonder what the other parses looked like with other classes btw?
-would you agree a pen bonus on a roll dodge (no matter how ridiculous) gives the Wood elf a burst advantage?
-would you agree poison resist and poisoned immunity gives them a toughness advantage?
-do you understand what I mean by scaleable passive?
-would you rather have a speed boost on a roll, or an immaterial snare reduction you won't even feel?

Alcast's assessment of the upcoming RG is correct, your posts are utterly vapid.

Th3asiangod's stam race comparison was on a stamblade. How is that even relevant to this discussion? Stamblades don't use weapon spammables. They use a grand total of 3 weapon skills in a normal rotation.

You don't seem to understand the underlying point here: Bosmer and Redguard DPS should be the same. Since you're parroting Th3asiangod's conclusions at me, maybe you should've actually listened when he said: "Bosmer results can also be used as Redguard results". They have the same DPS passives. In a stamblade test, where Redguard/Bosmer sustain is irrelevant when you can easily solo sustain a 6mil parse on an Orc or Dunmer, Redguard and Bosmer should do exactly the same DPS because they will use exactly the same setup with exactly the same rotation with exactly the same damage passives. This is elementary.

There are scenarios where Redguards have better sustain and there are scenarios where Bosmer have better sustain. Extremely straightforward, easy to deduce just from looking at the passives, and easy to test.

The roll dodge passive is irrelevant in PvE. The poison resistance is irrelevant in PvE.

I already demonstrated the effect of the scaling of +258 stamina regen in my prior post. It still results in less net sustain than Redguards have when using a weapon spammable. The Bosmer stam regen passive is boosted by 83% in my stamsorc parses (which is about as high as it gets in PvE, with the exception of a stamblade where you'd be at 88% with Minor Endurance).

This is a simple fact and I don't have any idea how to state it more clearly: if you are using a weapon spammable, Redguards have better sustain. From a pure end-game PvE min-maxing perspective, there are builds where Redguard is a better choice.

But really, you shouldn't believe me, and you shouldn't believe Th3asiangod, and you shouldn't believe Alcast. You should test it yourself and reach your own conclusions rather than just mindlessly repeating someone else's conclusions.

Don't make me lol, the purpose of the Stam NB is that is the top Stam performer. The correlation between Stam NB and stam race performance is painfully obvious. I did listen to what Asian god said and I quoted it verbatim, you being snide won't change that. I can apply a simple understanding of scaling and game mechanics to understand in most scenarios the Wood Elf is preferable. I can think about what is provided for a mere second and realize the woof elf has more versatility and will scale better in a group. Perhaps you understand this as well and that's why you won't address anything I said.

The only way that a Bosmer will "scale better in a group" is via a Warden Healer with Enchanted Growth, which will grant Minor Endurance and boost their regen by a whopping 25.8 (which still doesn't cover the spread; a Redguard stamsorc will still have better sustain than a Bosmer stamsorc even if you add Minor Endurance).

Stamblade tests apply to stamblades. It is unbelievably stupid to extrapolate those results to some other class.

If we're talking PvE stamblades, Bosmer and Redguards are both trashcans and don't hold a candle to Orcs or Dunmer or even Khajiit. Again, totally irrelevant to this conversation, which from the very first comment I made was about builds that use weapon spammables. Stamblade is literally the worst possible PvE build for a Redguard going forward, because they have the best sustain, they use very few weapon skills, and they don't use a weapon ultimate.

What's unbelievably stupid is not realizing Stam NB is representative of Stam classes with their own skills, and as the high water mark for Stam dps. I don't believe for a second endurance buffs won't tip the favour for woof elf in a group environment, and neither do you, you are just dithering now. I am talking about wholistic racial benefit this patch will provide, in a comparitive sense. My post history is clear in that regard. For the last time your findings for this niche advantage are inconsequential. I feel completely confident trusting Alcast's analysis and so should you.

When you say "endurance buffs", are you implying that there is some other "endurance buff" you're getting from a group other than Minor Endurance from a Warden Healer? What exactly do you mean by that?

Maybe this exercise will help clarify things for me.

Here are two basically identical parses on a stamsorc from a Redguard and a Bosmer. Both using Rending Slashes as a spammable, as is "meta" for a PvE stamsorc on Live. Same gear, same CP, same rotation, same DPS. In this case, the Bosmer regen passive is boosted (as before) by 83% (Major Endurance +20%, Vampirism +10%, Medium Armor +28%, Daedric Protection +20%, CP +15%). In this case, unlike the prior CMX parses, there are no heavy attacks or other differences to confuse the issue. You can see the difference in Base Regeneration (factoring in the extra tick of base regen on the Redguard, the difference works out to exactly what it should: about +215 stam per second with buffs).

Redguard:


Bosmer:


The Bosmer has a stamina drain differential of -132. The Redguard has a stamina drain differential of -78. So the Redguard has +54 stam per second, the equivalent of +108 buffed effective stam regen.

So what group buffs are there that are going to boost the Bosmer's sustain past the Redguard's? I'm all ears, because if I'm going to get better sustain on my Live stamsorc with a Bosmer then I'll gladly change it from Redguard to Bosmer.

FrancisCrawford

Mudcrabber wrote: »

I'm still happy that Khajiit are becoming magicka-viable, though it's been a rollercoaster with it momentarily becoming best-of-everything and then having that taken away.

I'm unhappy that my Argonian DPS main is getting an across-the-board nerf, though I chose it for its looks rather than its passives.

I like that there's a reason to pick Breton now.

I feel for Bosmer's losing their stealth. I think they decided there was too much overlap with Khajiit, and that one had to go.

It's a really bad combination that they:

• Nuked one of the two stealth races.
• Have stealth-based events coming up soon.

There's no time to give them "Trust us; we'll fix it eventually" benefit of the doubt.

CurvedSwords123

No, I hate them!

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Bosmer outsustains redguard, the supposed stam sustain race in at least 3 out of the 5 classes while having a speed bonus and resists. Yes the 258 stam regen is much more than you think in reality. The snare resistance is borderline useless especially when it is multiplicative. Every race but redguard has some sort of dmg mitigation or hp passive

Bosmer has lost its flavor in a way by removing stealth detection radius reduction and stealth damage. Kinda strange that a tiny bosmer is just as noticable as a large orc or nord.

Redguard is good on anything that uses a weapon skill as a main attack, so Wardens/Stam Sorcs/Stam DK

And also....Magicka Sorc...right now you can make an absolutely beast most Magicka Sorc with Redguard.

But bosmer is better for sustain (which redguard is supposed to excel at) and orc for damage for stam. With bosmer's and orc's high mobility, orc's tankyness and high dmg, and bosmer' high regen, why choose a redguard? Dont say the snare reduction passive. It turns a 40% snare into a 34% snare. And a 70% snare into a 59.5% snare. With most stam builds running shuffle/fm this is moot.

For mag, I can agree with you somewhat, though you have to admit it seems a bit off. A stam race as a mag toon.
Even so, Altmer has much more damage while having good stam sustain.

You're better off with Redguard if you use a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Shrouded Daggers, Rending Slashes, Wrecking Blow, etc.). You're better off with Bosmer if you don't. Both still have excellent sustain for all stam builds.

I can't say for PvP, but for PvE, I'd pick Redguard over Bosmer on a stamsorc and stamDK. Stamplars will see slightly better sustain as a Bosmer but the 8% cost reduction of Ballista for a Redguard is a factor as well. That 8% cost reduction on weapon ultimates may move the needle for some PvP builds as well.

With the sustain, utility and resists bosmer gets, I see no reason to choose redguard over it. A bosmer, unless you are permablocking or sprinting will always have their regen ticking while a redguard needs a target to take full advantage.

As I said elsewhere, I have actually tested Redguard vs. Bosmer on a variety of builds. If you are using a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Shrouded Daggers, or Wrecking Blow), Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer.

Bosmer with Crushing Weapon:


Redguard with Rapid Strikes:


In fact, on a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, even using Lavafoot food, it is not possible to sustain a full LA rotation on a 6mil skeleton. On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, it is.

? Srsly. Ok, I guess that 4 extra DPs is worth being relegated to a rapid striking Stamsorc.

Ermagerd.

The point is the sustain. A Redguard using a weapon spammable has better sustain than a Bosmer and they have the same DPS bonus of +2000 max stam. Simple fact. End of story.

If you are using a weapon spammable, be it Rapid Strikes or Rending Slashes or Shrouded Daggers or Wrecking Blow or Focused Aim, you probably want to pick Redguard. If not, pick Bosmer.

It's very simple.

You posted the net 4 DPs difference, not me. They have the same sustain, except the Bosmer has more options in relation to class and skill choice. Stam Regen will scale with armour and buffs, adrenaline rush & martial training will not. The 15% snare reduction is a joke, while the roll dodge speed buff will be a useful tool. End of story. Speaking of Bosmers, the roll/pen thing is ridiculous. I support rolling that back for a stealth buff for Bosmers.

@CurvedSwords123

I'll try this again ...

Redguard and Bosmer have identical pure damage passives. Agreed? +2000 Max Stamina. That's it. If you set a Redguard and a Bosmer up the same way, with a rotation that they can sustain, they'll do the same DPS.

The question at hand here is: are there cases in which Redguard sustain passives are more powerful than Bosmer +258 regen?

The answer is: yes.

Which is why I posted CMX parses that demonstrate the difference in stam regen/drain differential.

On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, the differential is about -180 stam per second on average. On a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, it's about -220 stam per second on average.

Ergo, the Redguard has stronger sustain.

In practice this means that a Redguard can sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Rapid Strikes. A Bosmer cannot sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Crushing Weapon or Rapid Strikes.

So when I said "If you are using a weapon spammable, Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer", and then followed that with CMX screenshots, those screenshots were meant to demonstrate the point that Redguards have better sustain than Bosmer. But I guess maybe that wasn't clear?

It was completely clear, your point is inconsequential though. Asian god who is a more proven analyst than you said "Bosmer has better sustain than Redguards in most cases" and didn't even bother to add Redguard in his parse analysis. The best evidence you could provide, in the best case for, demonstrated a net difference of four DPs. I can easily chalk up a handful of heavy attacks to operator deficiency. I wonder what the other parses looked like with other classes btw?
-would you agree a pen bonus on a roll dodge (no matter how ridiculous) gives the Wood elf a burst advantage?
-would you agree poison resist and poisoned immunity gives them a toughness advantage?
-do you understand what I mean by scaleable passive?
-would you rather have a speed boost on a roll, or an immaterial snare reduction you won't even feel?

Alcast's assessment of the upcoming RG is correct, your posts are utterly vapid.

Th3asiangod's stam race comparison was on a stamblade. How is that even relevant to this discussion? Stamblades don't use weapon spammables. They use a grand total of 3 weapon skills in a normal rotation.

You don't seem to understand the underlying point here: Bosmer and Redguard DPS should be the same. Since you're parroting Th3asiangod's conclusions at me, maybe you should've actually listened when he said: "Bosmer results can also be used as Redguard results". They have the same DPS passives. In a stamblade test, where Redguard/Bosmer sustain is irrelevant when you can easily solo sustain a 6mil parse on an Orc or Dunmer, Redguard and Bosmer should do exactly the same DPS because they will use exactly the same setup with exactly the same rotation with exactly the same damage passives. This is elementary.

There are scenarios where Redguards have better sustain and there are scenarios where Bosmer have better sustain. Extremely straightforward, easy to deduce just from looking at the passives, and easy to test.

The roll dodge passive is irrelevant in PvE. The poison resistance is irrelevant in PvE.

I already demonstrated the effect of the scaling of +258 stamina regen in my prior post. It still results in less net sustain than Redguards have when using a weapon spammable. The Bosmer stam regen passive is boosted by 83% in my stamsorc parses (which is about as high as it gets in PvE, with the exception of a stamblade where you'd be at 88% with Minor Endurance).

This is a simple fact and I don't have any idea how to state it more clearly: if you are using a weapon spammable, Redguards have better sustain. From a pure end-game PvE min-maxing perspective, there are builds where Redguard is a better choice.

But really, you shouldn't believe me, and you shouldn't believe Th3asiangod, and you shouldn't believe Alcast. You should test it yourself and reach your own conclusions rather than just mindlessly repeating someone else's conclusions.

Don't make me lol, the purpose of the Stam NB is that is the top Stam performer. The correlation between Stam NB and stam race performance is painfully obvious. I did listen to what Asian god said and I quoted it verbatim, you being snide won't change that. I can apply a simple understanding of scaling and game mechanics to understand in most scenarios the Wood Elf is preferable. I can think about what is provided for a mere second and realize the woof elf has more versatility and will scale better in a group. Perhaps you understand this as well and that's why you won't address anything I said.

The only way that a Bosmer will "scale better in a group" is via a Warden Healer with Enchanted Growth, which will grant Minor Endurance and boost their regen by a whopping 25.8 (which still doesn't cover the spread; a Redguard stamsorc will still have better sustain than a Bosmer stamsorc even if you add Minor Endurance).

Stamblade tests apply to stamblades. It is unbelievably stupid to extrapolate those results to some other class.

If we're talking PvE stamblades, Bosmer and Redguards are both trashcans and don't hold a candle to Orcs or Dunmer or even Khajiit. Again, totally irrelevant to this conversation, which from the very first comment I made was about builds that use weapon spammables. Stamblade is literally the worst possible PvE build for a Redguard going forward, because they have the best sustain, they use very few weapon skills, and they don't use a weapon ultimate.

What's unbelievably stupid is not realizing Stam NB is representative of Stam classes with their own skills, and as the high water mark for Stam dps. I don't believe for a second endurance buffs won't tip the favour for woof elf in a group environment, and neither do you, you are just dithering now. I am talking about wholistic racial benefit this patch will provide, in a comparitive sense. My post history is clear in that regard. For the last time your findings for this niche advantage are inconsequential. I feel completely confident trusting Alcast's analysis and so should you.

When you say "endurance buffs", are you implying that there is some other "endurance buff" you're getting from a group other than Minor Endurance from a Warden Healer? What exactly do you mean by that?

Maybe this exercise will help clarify things for me.

Here are two basically identical parses on a stamsorc from a Redguard and a Bosmer. Both using Rending Slashes as a spammable, as is "meta" for a PvE stamsorc on Live. Same gear, same CP, same rotation, same DPS. In this case, the Bosmer regen passive is boosted (as before) by 83% (Major Endurance +20%, Vampirism +10%, Medium Armor +28%, Daedric Protection +20%, CP +15%). In this case, unlike the prior CMX parses, there are no heavy attacks or other differences to confuse the issue. You can see the difference in Base Regeneration (factoring in the extra tick of base regen on the Redguard, the difference works out to exactly what it should: about +215 stam per second with buffs).

Redguard:


Bosmer:


The Bosmer has a stamina drain differential of -132. The Redguard has a stamina drain differential of -78. So the Redguard has +54 stam per second, the equivalent of +108 buffed effective stam regen.

So what group buffs are there that are going to boost the Bosmer's sustain past the Redguard's? I'm all ears, because if I'm going to get better sustain on my Live stamsorc with a Bosmer then I'll gladly change it from Redguard to Bosmer.

Minor Endurance (Increase stamina recovery by 10%)
Spoiler
Fighters Guild Ability: Circle of Protection+Morphs
Templar Restorning Light Ability: Restoring Aura+Morphs
Nightblade Assassination Ability: Relentless Focus (Morph of Grim Focus)
Warden Green Balance Ability: Enchanted Growth (Morph of Fungal Growth)

Those are your minor endurance sources.

Of course major endurance source is potions.

I could've sworn there was a templar synergy that bestowed Stam endurance? Maybe I'm wrong. Regardless it doesn't make a difference.

There is also synergy for wood elves with vampirism, which you mentioned.

You may as well switch your Bosmer over for the extra passives. He will perform just as well as your Redguard Stamsorc next patch. That dodge roll speed buff with the poison defense will be noticeable in PvP as well.

Again, I'm concerned about wholistic racial benefit, not niche sustain advantage. You do realize you just illustrated the best case scenario for Redguards in Wraithstone and you achieved the same results with Woodelf? Show me your nightblade and templar parses between these two races.

FrancisCrawford

Silver_Strider wrote: »

This patch started off promising and just got progressively worse in my eyes.

Altmer lost their sustain and are now practically indistinguishable from Dunmer.
Bosmer lost its stealth passive for more Dodging Shenanigans.
Khajiit traded Thief Mundus for Shadow Mundus, coming up short n comparison to Dunmer.
Nords are still shoehorned Tanks
Argonians are still shoehorned Healers but worse than before.
Orc is beating everyone else into submission.

The only change I can honestly say I'm fine with are those for Imperial, Breton and Redguard. Everything else was awful.

Dunmer changes are neither good nor bad.

Actually, the same is true of Altmer. They just got leapfrogged by Bretons.

Sun7dance

Not really...

BlueRaven wrote: »

When you look at the class devs comments like @Masel it becomes abundantly clear why the Bosmer loss of stealth change was not reversed. Our concerns were not the ones of high end trial groups or PvP players. Normal QoL matters are not important to them, we might as well not exist.

The class reps and developers are oblivious to normal players. Our complaints never stood a chance.

Just remember the shield nerf!
All magickas cried about the new shields with cast time and ZOS has reacted immediately!

But what about this stupid roll dodge thing, which is absolutely useless in PvE and PvP? What's the reason why they don't react here as well?
All in all bosmers get a double nerf here. No desease resistance anymore (still without any explanation!) and from all "sub passives" by far the worst one!

FrancisCrawford

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

stam regen on Altmer is the single worst decision in all ESO dev history.

Not even close.

It may be high in the dumbest decsion ranks, but it's not consequential enough to be among the very worst.

Vapirko

Most of them look good!

As an Orc PvP main, obviously I am happy and aware that a ton of people hate me for it. But I am also very happy that the devs did not give into the crying this time around because in actuality Orcs are not way OP as people say, aside from the first round of skeleton parses which again, is not applicable to most of the player base. People say what reason do I have to play another race? Well the fact that you like that race and that the numbers are very, very close and won't matter to most people aside from the top progression guilds and if you play that way you make yourself naturally more vulnerable to changes. That said, I am still sorry for the Bosmer PvErs and the stealth change is useless. Orc was fairly bottom of the list in PvE for as long as I can remember, yet Ive done fine with mine through most vet DLC dungeons, vMA and as many vet trials as I cared to try. Redguard, I think, has been in a similar place as Orcs are looking to be.

But, on PTS rn my Orc is seeing a small loss to health, a slight increase in max stamina and obviously wpn damage. Tooltips however are very close. I play in no CP so my DBoS is only 300 damage higher on PTS same with my PoL, jabs is only 200 damage higher. The only big change is Vigor which gets an extra 1.2k which will be halved to 600 in PvP. So overall really the same as they are on live performance wise. The loss of 20% health recovery and the 5% to healing received is quite big and you will have to actively be engaged in combat if you want to see any of that returned with the new healing passive. And of course Im very happy that Orc speed is finally fixed to reflect its tooltip. ZOS did what they set out to do, with this class which was to retain the flavor while moving % boosts to flat values and maintaining a similar performance.

In my mind we will see further changes coming that will reduce the gaps between races even more, I do think the devs have a viable long term plan in mind for a change, and hopefully that includes a bit more racial adjustment for the Bosmers. But for such a huge change to what has been a staple in this game for quite some time, my hat is off to the devs.

BlueRaven

No, I hate them!

Vapirko wrote: »

As an Orc PvP main, obviously I am happy and aware that a ton of people hate me for it. But I am also very happy that the devs did not give into the crying this time around because in actuality Orcs are not way OP as people say, aside from the first round of skeleton parses which again, is not applicable to most of the player base. People say what reason do I have to play another race? Well the fact that you like that race and that the numbers are very, very close and won't matter to most people aside from the top progression guilds and if you play that way you make yourself naturally more vulnerable to changes. That said, I am still sorry for the Bosmer PvErs and the stealth change is useless. Orc was fairly bottom of the list in PvE for as long as I can remember, yet Ive done fine with mine through most vet DLC dungeons, vMA and as many vet trials as I cared to try. Redguard, I think, has been in a similar place as Orcs are looking to be.

But, on PTS rn my Orc is seeing a small loss to health, a slight increase in max stamina and obviously wpn damage. Tooltips however are very close. I play in no CP so my DBoS is only 300 damage higher on PTS same with my PoL, jabs is only 200 damage higher. The only big change is Vigor which gets an extra 1.2k which will be halved to 600 in PvP. So overall really the same as they are on live performance wise. The loss of 20% health recovery and the 5% to healing received is quite big and you will have to actively be engaged in combat if you want to see any of that returned with the new healing passive. And of course Im very happy that Orc speed is finally fixed to reflect its tooltip. ZOS did what they set out to do, with this class which was to retain the flavor while moving % boosts to flat values and maintaining a similar performance.

In my mind we will see further changes coming that will reduce the gaps between races even more, I do think the devs have a viable long term plan in mind for a change, and hopefully that includes a bit more racial adjustment for the Bosmers. But for such a huge change to what has been a staple in this game for quite some time, my hat is off to the devs.

As a primarily Bosmer player I am not the least bit upset that Orcs got buffs and are fun to play. I think it’s terrific!

I just wished they used the same mentality to make all the races that fun.