Are you happy with the racial changes that most likely will go live?

Lord-Otto

No, I hate them!

Seraphayel wrote: »

Vulsahdaal wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

Basically, what I got from this "racial rebalancing" is that all DC races are now god-tier.

Everyone else? Pure, useless trash.

My 4 Bretons are now buffed beyond OP in magic, my 2 Redguards aren't incredibly better, but still in a decent place.

On the other hand, my 5 Bosmer and 4 Altmer characters have been gutted in the most lore-shattering way possible with Hawk's Eye and Spell Recharge. It's disgusting.

Enjoy that "diversity" they kept promoting this change would bring.

I've never seen this company fail so hard at meeting their original stated objective.

Your choice of words says that you don't understand how close all this is... No race is God tier, none is trash. Sustain races are able to use blue food and increase their damage, while damage races can use regen food and increase their sustain. At the moment, the second option is slightly better (because regen food is overloaded), but it doesnt have to stay that way.

As a mostly PvE player, what do I get from Hawk's Eye? From Spell Recharge?

Oh, that's right, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Just 3 skillpoints that got freed up to be used elsewhere.

Even a health bonus or any other sort of utility I could say would be useful in PvE, but these two? No way in hell.

This is outright false for Spell Recharge. It's undeniably useful in PvE, too.

I dont see it. How can you add to a tank thats already full?

On PTS I put zero points into 'spell' recharge and have had no issues. With stamina anyway

Seems pretty useless to me..

Well for me it has a use in solo PvE as well in group dungeons were you need stamina. What's your point? You can make use of that racial in PvE. Is it maybe more useful in PvP? It is. Is it therefore useless in PvE? In no way.

Question is, how did people live through those dungeons before, without a stam racial? Answer, just fine. Ergo it has no use.

Vulsahdaal

Not really...

Seraphayel wrote: »

Vulsahdaal wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

Basically, what I got from this "racial rebalancing" is that all DC races are now god-tier.

Everyone else? Pure, useless trash.

My 4 Bretons are now buffed beyond OP in magic, my 2 Redguards aren't incredibly better, but still in a decent place.

On the other hand, my 5 Bosmer and 4 Altmer characters have been gutted in the most lore-shattering way possible with Hawk's Eye and Spell Recharge. It's disgusting.

Enjoy that "diversity" they kept promoting this change would bring.

I've never seen this company fail so hard at meeting their original stated objective.

Your choice of words says that you don't understand how close all this is... No race is God tier, none is trash. Sustain races are able to use blue food and increase their damage, while damage races can use regen food and increase their sustain. At the moment, the second option is slightly better (because regen food is overloaded), but it doesnt have to stay that way.

As a mostly PvE player, what do I get from Hawk's Eye? From Spell Recharge?

Oh, that's right, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Just 3 skillpoints that got freed up to be used elsewhere.

Even a health bonus or any other sort of utility I could say would be useful in PvE, but these two? No way in hell.

This is outright false for Spell Recharge. It's undeniably useful in PvE, too.

I dont see it. How can you add to a tank thats already full?

On PTS I put zero points into 'spell' recharge and have had no issues. With stamina anyway

Seems pretty useless to me..

Well for me it has a use in solo PvE as well in group dungeons were you need stamina. What's your point? You can make use of that racial in PvE. Is it maybe more useful in PvP? It is. Is it therefore useless in PvE? In no way.

It sounds to me as if were doing the same content but there the similiarity stops.

My Altmer magsorc does mainly WBs and dungeons. Usually solo. Never roll-dodges. (Thats for my stam characters who somersault all over the place like ninjas on speed.)

He occasionally will throw up a block. Or have to break free. No stam issue.

He constantly chases Razor Master Erthas all over the room. Doesnt break a sweat.

Ran out of magicka three times during that fight though- and that was on live

So I really dont see how stam regen is needed or useful.

Now you could say, 'Well thats your playstyle. My Mag Altmer spends just as much time roll dodging and blocking as he does firing spells. So its useful to me.'

Perhaps it is so.

However, you are one of extremely few PVE Altmer mag players who seem to find this useful, if going by general mood here.

The vast majority are screaming ' Its useless! '

Based on my own experience, I would have to stetch my imagination to believe that they are all wrong.

sudaki_eso

Some are nice, others are not.

I can live with them and i am not going to whine about it, like always i will improvise, adapt and overcome
We are still able to play most of the content without noticing a difference to before.

Seraphayel

Most of them look good!

Vulsahdaal wrote: »

Based on my own experience, I would have to stetch my imagination to believe that they are all wrong.

The thing is, this is not about right or wrong. This is about design choice and personal preference.

All people that are asking for a Magicka return on Spell Recharge did not understand that ZOS will not give a race raw damage and main resource sustain at the same time.

It's totally fine if you don't like it from a PvE Magicka perspective. But it really doesn't matter (as much as my opinion does neither) as it is not on us to judge, it's on ZOS and their design philosophy. Can they make it more useful? Sure, add health in the mix. But there is no justification to turn Spell Recharge into another Magicka restore/sustain passive when we apply ZOS racial ruleset.

Lord-Otto

No, I hate them!

They can always tweak the damage and sustain numbers to avoid overpoweredness. It's quite silly to neglect having both from a design stand point. Classic ZOS: "We don't want this design, so we're effing stuff up to satisfy OUR vision of the game, nevermind everyone else!". My former DW mag sorc still remembers the loss of Trapping Webs because ZOS wanted "Undaunted to be about synergies".

But to add insult to injury, it's hypocritical. Bretons do have damage and sustain with max mag and regen. Undaunted is about pure synergies, but Altmer aren't about pure magic. ZOS are very conveniently selective in their ideals...

Ozby

No, I hate them!

Masel wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

Basically, what I got from this "racial rebalancing" is that all DC races are now god-tier.

Everyone else? Pure, useless trash.

My 4 Bretons are now buffed beyond OP in magic, my 2 Redguards aren't incredibly better, but still in a decent place.

On the other hand, my 5 Bosmer and 4 Altmer characters have been gutted in the most lore-shattering way possible with Hawk's Eye and Spell Recharge. It's disgusting.

Enjoy that "diversity" they kept promoting this change would bring.

I've never seen this company fail so hard at meeting their original stated objective.

Your choice of words says that you don't understand how close all this is... No race is God tier, none is trash. Sustain races are able to use blue food and increase their damage, while damage races can use regen food and increase their sustain. At the moment, the second option is slightly better (because regen food is overloaded), but it doesnt have to stay that way.

As a mostly PvE player, what do I get from Hawk's Eye? From Spell Recharge?

Oh, that's right, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Just 3 skillpoints that got freed up to be used elsewhere.

Even a health bonus or any other sort of utility I could say would be useful in PvE, but these two? No way in hell.

Your recovery passive alone makes it huge buff for you and Bosmer very competitive, so what else do you want? 258 is amplified by up to 120% in pve, while the old passive applied to such a small value that it wasnt even noticable. I'm not saying the roll dogged passive is good, but you got a huge buff to your race right there that many here dont seem to see.

so your agreeing the roll dodge passive is not good, hrm well I guess we can say there is a good reason for all the complaints then. Yes there is always complaints when change happens, people inherently do not like change but these changes seem to have missed the memo completely.

Elwendryll

Yes, absolutely!

John_Falstaff wrote: »

If you're happy staying where you are, it's okay, not judging. But I just feel it's more selfish to ask for a buff where a little effort in improving your skill will get you those 2k dps, than to ask for a buff when everything else is pushed to the limit and it's only this buff that can put you in line with others.

Thanks for the analogies, it conveys very well your point of view, I understand it.
But regardless, I still think that being a khajiit wouldn't prevent me from joining endgame content. I may be a beginner, I completed my very first HM trial this sunday, I still think that the difference between races (on the pts) is totally irrelevant outside of leaderboards.

But now, do you really feel like the current situation of races will lock you out of using a specific one in any content?
I have been playing for nearly 4 years. It's very hard to allow myself to play for fun. Don't misunderstand me, that's not that I'm satisfied with where my dps sits or anything. These numbers are for my regular build for overland/vMA/Dungeons, 30k is the minimum dps I'm willing to play with, and I try to find original/fun builds within this restriction.

As an example, I wouldn't allow myself not to use Relequen in any serious scenario. I perfectly know where I could get more dps, I'm perfectly aware of the current meta. I just don't find it fun at all. It drives me away from the game actually. So I take it upon myself when I want to complete harder content. And seeing the changes, I feel like race is no longer an issue at all. On live, there is a significant difference between khajiit and redguard parses for instance.

I just say that with these changes I no longer feel like a race change would be mandatory in order not to be a dead weight for my guild. (And in case of Khajiit, it opens up even more possibilities as I could play magicka/ranged now)...

SodanTok

Most of them look good!

I was very happy with the first iteration but also unhappy with most of the further changes. Feels like this big update is good in general but knowing it was basically better for 2 weeks of PTS makes it bittersweet

Koronach

No, I hate them!

I'm not happy at all, I won't be renewing plus and definitely won't be getting Elsweyr.

MartiniDaniels

No, I hate them!

Last 2 weeks on forum PvZOS like:

Morgul667

Yes, absolutely!

Im actually happily surprised with what zos did here

anadandy

Masel wrote: »

I never said I like the roll dodge passive. I dont. But people lose their minds on a small utility passive while they got buffed on another.

Us class reps have been reading the feedback for the pastt weeks in our free time and you know what? I told them that many people dont like the roll dodge thing. I told them that many also dont like the stamina return on altmer. I told them that many players think orc is overtuned and that I can get where they are coming from. I have criticized these passives too.

But I also know the other end. Players complained about the stealth passive for examples all the way when it was there. Ofc some people liked it, but also many many people didn't. So what they did is buff the universal part in form of stamina and recovery. I have no clue why this roll dodge passive is there, and I'm not the biggest fan of it. But in total, I can see these passives to be a big improvement to before. Same with altmer. People focus on that one passive they dont like but ignore the ones that improved significantly.


I just can't understand how many people here can rage that hard when they just got a buff to their race compared to live. People are insulting me now because I voiced an opinion that didnt match theirs, which is why I'll stop posting for now.

People didn't like Stealth or people didn't like damage from stealth? Because I'd be willing to bet it was the latter. If people actually didn't like the stealth radius bonus, why leave it in the game at all? The chief complaint of Bosmer was not the loss of damage from stealth but the loss of stealth itself - which is a core racial identity of Bosmer.

I'm sorry you've been insulted, but you know what else is insulting? Having weeks of thoughtful and consistent feedback dismissed as whining and hysteria.

What's insulting is that for four weeks, Bosmer players, in a mostly reasonable manner, asked for explanation why they were the only race being saddled with a useless PVP only passive (Stealth Detection) and completely ignored. Still waiting.

It's insulting to be asked why we're focusing on one utility passive (that even you admit is not great) when we got a buff elsewhere when there are several threads with the answer clearly and objectively laid out.

SpiderCultist

Most of them look good!

Overall I like them but from RP perspective I cannot understand how Nords managed to conquer Orc's land with those passives tbh maybe some kind of supermead granted them superpowers...

John_Falstaff

No, I hate them!

@Elwendryll , where I stand is, the point "you still can do this content" is in principle not a standpoint from which you can do any kind of balancing or judgement about racials. Yes, bad racials won't lock me out of most content (granted, it'll make it harder to find less meta-minded people who would run hardest content in a company of suboptimal build - it's all about averages; average khajiit player will have to sift through more people to find those who'll say 'okay, we're not optimal, let's run this progression anyway'). People run vMA with broom and a bucket, using only light attacks or shield-bashes. But it's irrelevant, because the question "can I run <content> with those racials?" is moot in any case, because racials are mostly out of the picture at this point (except making the content somewhat harder or easier). If a guild runs just for clears and with 35k dps on average, then it's fine and it can simply accept the fact that the whole discussion about racial balancing is out of its scope, because racials didn't start mattering for them yet - at all. It makes no sense to balance racials around that guild. One can say that they aren't the "target audience" for racial passives.

And hence we have that the target audience is those who either want the flavor (we see a lot of unhappy bosmers and altmers around - yes, they also can clear everything and kill people in PvP, but they do have own reasons), or indeed in the competitive scene (we have leaderboards built into the game after all). Yes, not everyone cares about leaderboards, but those who do are in toughest situation: they have the biggest pressure on the side of racials (because they are the ones who're trying to push the edge and they're out of other ways to be as good as others are), while they also, like everyone else, want to play the game they love and have a tail or almond-shaped eyes or dark skin or what have you.

But wait for it; it's not just about the score runners, it's also everyone who's conscious about potential of their race. Yes, you may not be running for leaderboards now - you're happy now if you can clear any content. But it's MMO, and for a lot of people the potential for growth is part of the enjoyment from the game. So imagine how enjoyable it feels, to be told that it's all right, yes, your race isn't good at anything, but it won't matter for you unless you want to run for scores. Sure, right now a khajiit or bosmer or argonian player doesn't want to run for scores, but it doesn't mean that they absolute exclude the possibility that in a month or two or six they will want to try that - and in that way, racials affect them too: they have to keep enjoying the game with realization that they won't be able to reach the very top (while not sacrificing their identity) no matter what they do, simply because others are at advantage by birthright. Imagine telling them that game's okay, no worries, they won't be affected just as long as they keep staying peasants and won't be getting those weird thoughts of trying for more. See, it's the knowledge of own potential that adds fun to the game, even if someone isn't running for scores just yet.

FilteredRiddle

Some are nice, others are not.

The two races I utilize will still be viable, and I’m happy for that change. However, I am struggling to get past the idea of Magicka Khajiit and Stamina Altmer. Both ideas are ridiculous and have zero place in ESO.

Haashhtaag

I think for PvP orc is way overturned and stands out overall for most classes. But all the rest seem pretty in line

Cundu_Ertur

No, I hate them!

OtarTheMad wrote: »

They might not have had stealth detection bonuses in other games but were there any bonuses like that in the games anyway?

For Bosmer? Never. For Khajiit? Night eye.

ZOS_RikardD

Greetings,

We have had to remove or edit several comments from this thread for bashing, insults, or otherwise non-constructive or inappropriate commentary.

Please remember to keep conversations civil and constructive and take a moment to review our Community Rules Here.

Thank you for your understanding.

BaylorCorvette

Yes, absolutely!

Yup, from what I've tested on PTS thus far I'm happy.

Ratzkifal

Some are nice, others are not.

Masel wrote: »

But people lose their minds on a small utility passive while they got buffed on another.
People focus on that one passive they dont like but ignore the ones that improved significantly.
I just can't understand how many people here can rage that hard when they just got a buff to their race compared to live. People are insulting me now because I voiced an opinion that didnt match theirs, which is why I'll stop posting for now.

Masel wrote: »

I never said that parses are the only thing I care about. But they achieve a much better balance than the ones we have on live and THAT was the goal.
For every role and playstyle you have various options to execute it.

@Masel With all due respect, but you keep repeating your mistake. A "small utility passive" is very important to people because it gives flavor to the race choice. If people were seriously complaining about the reduced detection radius of Bosmer, then it's not completely out of the question to reduce their sneak cost by say 20% instead is it? Khajiit still have that passive so it can't be that damaging now, can it? Then why can't Bosmer have anything related to stealth?
That you can't understand how many people can be upset when they just got an a buff to their race shows that you don't understand the problem at hand. As an example, Altmer would be against becoming the best stamina dps simply because it is not right. The lore says no and the players want that to be respected.
You think that people are insulting you because you voiced a different opinion, but your choice of words and down-playing and dismissive attitude about real concerns are insulting to some of us.
Now you state that a better balance than on live was the goal as if it was the only goal you had. Removing all racial passives would have achieve the same thing but even you would agree that this would not feel right despite it meeting "the goal", yes? Similarly people are upset because the flavor parts of their race got removed for unflavorful numbers, counterintuitive or lore inconsistent ones.
Bosmer don't think their sneaky nature is represented enough in an increase to stamina recovery which will technically allow them to sneak more, but doesn't set them apart from any other race with boosts to stamina.

MLGProPlayer

Not really...

Seraphayel wrote: »

Vulsahdaal wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

Basically, what I got from this "racial rebalancing" is that all DC races are now god-tier.

Everyone else? Pure, useless trash.

My 4 Bretons are now buffed beyond OP in magic, my 2 Redguards aren't incredibly better, but still in a decent place.

On the other hand, my 5 Bosmer and 4 Altmer characters have been gutted in the most lore-shattering way possible with Hawk's Eye and Spell Recharge. It's disgusting.

Enjoy that "diversity" they kept promoting this change would bring.

I've never seen this company fail so hard at meeting their original stated objective.

Your choice of words says that you don't understand how close all this is... No race is God tier, none is trash. Sustain races are able to use blue food and increase their damage, while damage races can use regen food and increase their sustain. At the moment, the second option is slightly better (because regen food is overloaded), but it doesnt have to stay that way.

As a mostly PvE player, what do I get from Hawk's Eye? From Spell Recharge?

Oh, that's right, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Just 3 skillpoints that got freed up to be used elsewhere.

Even a health bonus or any other sort of utility I could say would be useful in PvE, but these two? No way in hell.

This is outright false for Spell Recharge. It's undeniably useful in PvE, too.

I dont see it. How can you add to a tank thats already full?

On PTS I put zero points into 'spell' recharge and have had no issues. With stamina anyway

Seems pretty useless to me..

Well for me it has a use in solo PvE as well in group dungeons were you need stamina. What's your point? You can make use of that racial in PvE. Is it maybe more useful in PvP? It is. Is it therefore useless in PvE? In no way.

Stop holding down sprint in dungeons and rolling through damage you can walk out of and you won't ever run out of stamina in PvE content.

MLGProPlayer

Not really...

Vulsahdaal wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Vulsahdaal wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

Basically, what I got from this "racial rebalancing" is that all DC races are now god-tier.

Everyone else? Pure, useless trash.

My 4 Bretons are now buffed beyond OP in magic, my 2 Redguards aren't incredibly better, but still in a decent place.

On the other hand, my 5 Bosmer and 4 Altmer characters have been gutted in the most lore-shattering way possible with Hawk's Eye and Spell Recharge. It's disgusting.

Enjoy that "diversity" they kept promoting this change would bring.

I've never seen this company fail so hard at meeting their original stated objective.

Your choice of words says that you don't understand how close all this is... No race is God tier, none is trash. Sustain races are able to use blue food and increase their damage, while damage races can use regen food and increase their sustain. At the moment, the second option is slightly better (because regen food is overloaded), but it doesnt have to stay that way.

As a mostly PvE player, what do I get from Hawk's Eye? From Spell Recharge?

Oh, that's right, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Just 3 skillpoints that got freed up to be used elsewhere.

Even a health bonus or any other sort of utility I could say would be useful in PvE, but these two? No way in hell.

This is outright false for Spell Recharge. It's undeniably useful in PvE, too.

I dont see it. How can you add to a tank thats already full?

On PTS I put zero points into 'spell' recharge and have had no issues. With stamina anyway

Seems pretty useless to me..

Well for me it has a use in solo PvE as well in group dungeons were you need stamina. What's your point? You can make use of that racial in PvE. Is it maybe more useful in PvP? It is. Is it therefore useless in PvE? In no way.

It sounds to me as if were doing the same content but there the similiarity stops.

My Altmer magsorc does mainly WBs and dungeons. Usually solo. Never roll-dodges. (Thats for my stam characters who somersault all over the place like ninjas on speed.)

He occasionally will throw up a block. Or have to break free. No stam issue.

He constantly chases Razor Master Erthas all over the room. Doesnt break a sweat.

Ran out of magicka three times during that fight though- and that was on live

So I really dont see how stam regen is needed or useful.

Now you could say, 'Well thats your playstyle. My Mag Altmer spends just as much time roll dodging and blocking as he does firing spells. So its useful to me.'

Perhaps it is so.

However, you are one of extremely few PVE Altmer mag players who seem to find this useful, if going by general mood here.

The vast majority are screaming ' Its useless! '

Based on my own experience, I would have to stetch my imagination to believe that they are all wrong.

Constantly rolling on a magicka character is suboptimal. Nor does this passive let you do that. It's just 200 stamina regen, or 6000 stamina every minute, assuming you are never at full stamina (which you are, for most of a fight). You still need to conserve your stamina regardless. It's a 100% useless passive in PvE

max_only

Not really...

Bosmer players: please put back the 3m stealth radius passive. It means a lot to us for several reasons.

Zos and Class Reps:

You parse just as good as everyone else!

Bosmer players:

What if I told you that isn’t the topic of discussion.

LiquidPony

Most of them look good!

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Bosmer outsustains redguard, the supposed stam sustain race in at least 3 out of the 5 classes while having a speed bonus and resists. Yes the 258 stam regen is much more than you think in reality. The snare resistance is borderline useless especially when it is multiplicative. Every race but redguard has some sort of dmg mitigation or hp passive

Bosmer has lost its flavor in a way by removing stealth detection radius reduction and stealth damage. Kinda strange that a tiny bosmer is just as noticable as a large orc or nord.

Redguard is good on anything that uses a weapon skill as a main attack, so Wardens/Stam Sorcs/Stam DK

And also....Magicka Sorc...right now you can make an absolutely beast most Magicka Sorc with Redguard.

But bosmer is better for sustain (which redguard is supposed to excel at) and orc for damage for stam. With bosmer's and orc's high mobility, orc's tankyness and high dmg, and bosmer' high regen, why choose a redguard? Dont say the snare reduction passive. It turns a 40% snare into a 34% snare. And a 70% snare into a 59.5% snare. With most stam builds running shuffle/fm this is moot.

For mag, I can agree with you somewhat, though you have to admit it seems a bit off. A stam race as a mag toon.
Even so, Altmer has much more damage while having good stam sustain.

You're better off with Redguard if you use a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Shrouded Daggers, Rending Slashes, Wrecking Blow, etc.). You're better off with Bosmer if you don't. Both still have excellent sustain for all stam builds.

I can't say for PvP, but for PvE, I'd pick Redguard over Bosmer on a stamsorc and stamDK. Stamplars will see slightly better sustain as a Bosmer but the 8% cost reduction of Ballista for a Redguard is a factor as well. That 8% cost reduction on weapon ultimates may move the needle for some PvP builds as well.

With the sustain, utility and resists bosmer gets, I see no reason to choose redguard over it. A bosmer, unless you are permablocking or sprinting will always have their regen ticking while a redguard needs a target to take full advantage.

As I said elsewhere, I have actually tested Redguard vs. Bosmer on a variety of builds. If you are using a weapon spammable (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Shrouded Daggers, or Wrecking Blow), Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer.

Bosmer with Crushing Weapon:


Redguard with Rapid Strikes:


In fact, on a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, even using Lavafoot food, it is not possible to sustain a full LA rotation on a 6mil skeleton. On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, it is.

? Srsly. Ok, I guess that 4 extra DPs is worth being relegated to a rapid striking Stamsorc.

Ermagerd.

The point is the sustain. A Redguard using a weapon spammable has better sustain than a Bosmer and they have the same DPS bonus of +2000 max stam. Simple fact. End of story.

If you are using a weapon spammable, be it Rapid Strikes or Rending Slashes or Shrouded Daggers or Wrecking Blow or Focused Aim, you probably want to pick Redguard. If not, pick Bosmer.

It's very simple.

You posted the net 4 DPs difference, not me. They have the same sustain, except the Bosmer has more options in relation to class and skill choice. Stam Regen will scale with armour and buffs, adrenaline rush & martial training will not. The 15% snare reduction is a joke, while the roll dodge speed buff will be a useful tool. End of story. Speaking of Bosmers, the roll/pen thing is ridiculous. I support rolling that back for a stealth buff for Bosmers.

@CurvedSwords123

I'll try this again ...

Redguard and Bosmer have identical pure damage passives. Agreed? +2000 Max Stamina. That's it. If you set a Redguard and a Bosmer up the same way, with a rotation that they can sustain, they'll do the same DPS.

The question at hand here is: are there cases in which Redguard sustain passives are more powerful than Bosmer +258 regen?

The answer is: yes.

Which is why I posted CMX parses that demonstrate the difference in stam regen/drain differential.

On a Redguard with Rapid Strikes, the differential is about -180 stam per second on average. On a Bosmer with Crushing Weapon, it's about -220 stam per second on average.

Ergo, the Redguard has stronger sustain.

In practice this means that a Redguard can sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Rapid Strikes. A Bosmer cannot sustain a 6mil parse completely solo with Lavafoot food using Crushing Weapon or Rapid Strikes.

So when I said "If you are using a weapon spammable, Redguard has better sustain than Bosmer", and then followed that with CMX screenshots, those screenshots were meant to demonstrate the point that Redguards have better sustain than Bosmer. But I guess maybe that wasn't clear?

It was completely clear, your point is inconsequential though. Asian god who is a more proven analyst than you said "Bosmer has better sustain than Redguards in most cases" and didn't even bother to add Redguard in his parse analysis. The best evidence you could provide, in the best case for, demonstrated a net difference of four DPs. I can easily chalk up a handful of heavy attacks to operator deficiency. I wonder what the other parses looked like with other classes btw?
-would you agree a pen bonus on a roll dodge (no matter how ridiculous) gives the Wood elf a burst advantage?
-would you agree poison resist and poisoned immunity gives them a toughness advantage?
-do you understand what I mean by scaleable passive?
-would you rather have a speed boost on a roll, or an immaterial snare reduction you won't even feel?

Alcast's assessment of the upcoming RG is correct, your posts are utterly vapid.

Th3asiangod's stam race comparison was on a stamblade. How is that even relevant to this discussion? Stamblades don't use weapon spammables. They use a grand total of 3 weapon skills in a normal rotation.

You don't seem to understand the underlying point here: Bosmer and Redguard DPS should be the same. Since you're parroting Th3asiangod's conclusions at me, maybe you should've actually listened when he said: "Bosmer results can also be used as Redguard results". They have the same DPS passives. In a stamblade test, where Redguard/Bosmer sustain is irrelevant when you can easily solo sustain a 6mil parse on an Orc or Dunmer, Redguard and Bosmer should do exactly the same DPS because they will use exactly the same setup with exactly the same rotation with exactly the same damage passives. This is elementary.

There are scenarios where Redguards have better sustain and there are scenarios where Bosmer have better sustain. Extremely straightforward, easy to deduce just from looking at the passives, and easy to test.

The roll dodge passive is irrelevant in PvE. The poison resistance is irrelevant in PvE.

I already demonstrated the effect of the scaling of +258 stamina regen in my prior post. It still results in less net sustain than Redguards have when using a weapon spammable. The Bosmer stam regen passive is boosted by 83% in my stamsorc parses (which is about as high as it gets in PvE, with the exception of a stamblade where you'd be at 88% with Minor Endurance).

This is a simple fact and I don't have any idea how to state it more clearly: if you are using a weapon spammable, Redguards have better sustain. From a pure end-game PvE min-maxing perspective, there are builds where Redguard is a better choice.

But really, you shouldn't believe me, and you shouldn't believe Th3asiangod, and you shouldn't believe Alcast. You should test it yourself and reach your own conclusions rather than just mindlessly repeating someone else's conclusions.

Don't make me lol, the purpose of the Stam NB is that is the top Stam performer. The correlation between Stam NB and stam race performance is painfully obvious. I did listen to what Asian god said and I quoted it verbatim, you being snide won't change that. I can apply a simple understanding of scaling and game mechanics to understand in most scenarios the Wood Elf is preferable. I can think about what is provided for a mere second and realize the woof elf has more versatility and will scale better in a group. Perhaps you understand this as well and that's why you won't address anything I said.

The only way that a Bosmer will "scale better in a group" is via a Warden Healer with Enchanted Growth, which will grant Minor Endurance and boost their regen by a whopping 25.8 (which still doesn't cover the spread; a Redguard stamsorc will still have better sustain than a Bosmer stamsorc even if you add Minor Endurance).

Stamblade tests apply to stamblades. It is unbelievably stupid to extrapolate those results to some other class.

If we're talking PvE stamblades, Bosmer and Redguards are both trashcans and don't hold a candle to Orcs or Dunmer or even Khajiit. Again, totally irrelevant to this conversation, which from the very first comment I made was about builds that use weapon spammables. Stamblade is literally the worst possible PvE build for a Redguard going forward, because they have the best sustain, they use very few weapon skills, and they don't use a weapon ultimate.

What's unbelievably stupid is not realizing Stam NB is representative of Stam classes with their own skills, and as the high water mark for Stam dps. I don't believe for a second endurance buffs won't tip the favour for woof elf in a group environment, and neither do you, you are just dithering now. I am talking about wholistic racial benefit this patch will provide, in a comparitive sense. My post history is clear in that regard. For the last time your findings for this niche advantage are inconsequential. I feel completely confident trusting Alcast's analysis and so should you.

When you say "endurance buffs", are you implying that there is some other "endurance buff" you're getting from a group other than Minor Endurance from a Warden Healer? What exactly do you mean by that?

Maybe this exercise will help clarify things for me.

Here are two basically identical parses on a stamsorc from a Redguard and a Bosmer. Both using Rending Slashes as a spammable, as is "meta" for a PvE stamsorc on Live. Same gear, same CP, same rotation, same DPS. In this case, the Bosmer regen passive is boosted (as before) by 83% (Major Endurance +20%, Vampirism +10%, Medium Armor +28%, Daedric Protection +20%, CP +15%). In this case, unlike the prior CMX parses, there are no heavy attacks or other differences to confuse the issue. You can see the difference in Base Regeneration (factoring in the extra tick of base regen on the Redguard, the difference works out to exactly what it should: about +215 stam per second with buffs).

Redguard:


Bosmer:


The Bosmer has a stamina drain differential of -132. The Redguard has a stamina drain differential of -78. So the Redguard has +54 stam per second, the equivalent of +108 buffed effective stam regen.

So what group buffs are there that are going to boost the Bosmer's sustain past the Redguard's? I'm all ears, because if I'm going to get better sustain on my Live stamsorc with a Bosmer then I'll gladly change it from Redguard to Bosmer.

Minor Endurance (Increase stamina recovery by 10%)
Spoiler
Fighters Guild Ability: Circle of Protection+Morphs
Templar Restorning Light Ability: Restoring Aura+Morphs
Nightblade Assassination Ability: Relentless Focus (Morph of Grim Focus)
Warden Green Balance Ability: Enchanted Growth (Morph of Fungal Growth)

Those are your minor endurance sources.

Of course major endurance source is potions.

I could've sworn there was a templar synergy that bestowed Stam endurance? Maybe I'm wrong. Regardless it doesn't make a difference.

There is also synergy for wood elves with vampirism, which you mentioned.

You may as well switch your Bosmer over for the extra passives. He will perform just as well as your Redguard Stamsorc next patch. That dodge roll speed buff with the poison defense will be noticeable in PvP as well.

Again, I'm concerned about wholistic racial benefit, not niche sustain advantage. You do realize you just illustrated the best case scenario for Redguards in Wraithstone and you achieved the same results with Woodelf? Show me your nightblade and templar parses between these two races.

So ... in the end, exactly what I said. The only buff in play here is Minor Endurance, and it still doesn't cover the gap.

There is no good reason to switch a PvE build using a weapon spammable on Live from Redguard to Bosmer. It doesn't make sense. I'm not giving up 100 stam regen for some superfluous poison resistance that will have a negligible impact in 1% of the PvE game.

And yes, as I've said again and again and again, the Redguard advantage does not apply to builds that don't use weapon spammables. On a stamblade, Bosmer and Redguard hit the same numbers. On a stamden, Bosmer and Redguard hit the same numbers. Stamplar is an interesting case because, as far as what the "meta" is in PvE, it's the only stam build that normally uses a weapon ultimate. So Bosmer will have slightly better sustain, but Redguard will have cheaper Ballista.

Stamblade, stamden = Bosmer preferred
Stamsorc, stamDK (assuming weapon spammable) = Redguard preferred
Stamplar = open to interpretation

There's nothing unbalanced about this. The two stam sustain races have different specialties when it comes to PvE and you can choose either one in most cases and not see a significant difference.

Neither race is preferred when we're talking about absolute min-maxing of DPS, so if holistic racial benefit is really your concern, then you're barking up the wrong tree because Bosmer and Redguard are both going to be afterthoughts while Orcs are going to dominate stam race selection in basically all aspects of the game.

Mintaka5

Not really...

I was so disappointed with the last 4 patches. This one is underwhelming as ***.

OtarTheMad

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

They might not have had stealth detection bonuses in other games but were there any bonuses like that in the games anyway?

For Bosmer? Never. For Khajiit? Night eye.

That's right Night Eye. Thanks, forgot about that. So why doesn't ZOS just change it so Bosmer have the increased stealth and Khajiit has the detection.

RebornV3x

No, I hate them!

NO its obviously a cash grab to get everyone to the crown store I know we get 3 free race changes but lets be real some people have more than 3 characters and with the whole Kajhit and Altmer BS theres no point in denying it.

karthrag_inak

Not really...

would love to see someone test out the stam races with something other than rele/AY .

Like maybe VO/hundings or something similar (good but not BIS). You know, to see how rigidly different races need to follow the "BIS" brigade.

MLGProPlayer

Not really...

karthrag_inak wrote: »

would love to see someone test out the stam races with something other than rele/AY .

Like maybe VO/hundings or something similar (good but not BIS). You know, to see how rigidly different races need to follow the "BIS" brigade.

Differences between races are independent of gear. The gaps in DPS won't change if you swap out gear.

The only exception might be a race like Khajiit which might benefit more from crit gear (but still won't be competitive with the top races).

BlueRaven

No, I hate them!

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

They might not have had stealth detection bonuses in other games but were there any bonuses like that in the games anyway?

For Bosmer? Never. For Khajiit? Night eye.

That's right Night Eye. Thanks, forgot about that. So why doesn't ZOS just change it so Bosmer have the increased stealth and Khajiit has the detection.

First: I would not wish Stealth detect on any race.

Second: Kahjiits have a second passive for the pickpocketing skill. I can't say for sure, but that may have been a deciding factor.