Time To Fix Heavy Armor Meta

Xvorg · October 2018

CritsTheBed wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

CritsTheBed wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

CritsTheBed wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

CritsTheBed wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Why shouldn't a Player in heavy not be able to take a person in medium or light?
Makes no sense, are you saying that the type of armor you wear should decide a battle?
Then should a player in medium not be able to take a player in light armor?

Becuase you shouldnt be able to have 25-30k resist and 30k health and do high amounts of dps to players. As of right now there is no reason not to run heavy as a dps. A heavy armor build can be over pen'ing players, everage medium and light resist is around 15k and it is EASY to get that much penetration.

Why not? Because tanks should't be able to do dmg?

Do I have to explain you how that battle ended?

I agree that heavy should't be as mobile as medium or light, but by no way it should do less dmg per se

So everybody runs stam heavy armour 2h/dw bc of way better survivability and 7k weapon damage. And I mean everybody. 100% of the population. Because why would you gimp yourself when the copy paste 7th/fury/bs heavy armour meta is a ton better?

The point is those few sets combined with heavy are overperforming AND there are 2 other less desirable weights and a ton of sets that just sit bc why use them? Were talking about BALANCE. Damage vs survivability between 3 weights of armour and out of line sets.

bal·ance
ˈbaləns/noun: balance; plural noun: balances - condition in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions.

And your approach to get balance is "nerf heavy"?

As I mentioned above, heavy should be less mobile than medium or light. But doing less dmg than medium? Do you really want to send heavy to Oblivion?

Yes and some heavy armour sets. Heavy armour has WAAAAY more survivability than medium or light and if youre running heavy, chances are your running 7th/fury/bs which is more damage than mag and right up there with a divines gank build. So slowing heavy down a bit wont fix much. Like Irylia said earlier, nerf the offending sets. Put some kinda of mitigation or cc immunity in med and light passives and POOF medium and light will be relevant again.

Are you kidding? The 3 types have around the same survaibility, the thing is that both, medium and light require skill, while Heavy don't, but that's all. Sure, they can hit the armor cap, but medium can do that too using Brass. Even light can get as high as 23k resistance combining Almalexia's Mercy with Alessia's Bulwark and that's without using major ward/Resolve and also they give you 2 very interesting procs (Did you know you can proc alma heal with equilibrium?)

Heavy also lacks the resource recovery the other two have and the only way to keep on battle is by receiving dmg. Use a poison that drains stam, a stun and 43 points into the siphoning CP star, and the guy is done, no way he can build stam as quick and as reliabily as medium.

You lost the second you threw in brass. Med and light needs give up a damage set to survive but heavy gets to run 7th, fury or ravager which is extremely high damage and the benefits of heavy survival. How in the world is that the same to you?

How do you give up survival on light? Last time I checked there was a skill called "healing ward" that does wonders on light armor, especially if you have a low health bar. Same as this other skill called dampen magicka, that escalates better with your magicka pool. So if you build magicka, you get both, extra dmg and extra mitigation. So a combo of brass + spinners next patch will not only give you the 40% max health shield, but also a shield with a huge resistance, while getting extra penetration.

I'm afraid your problem with heavy is in between the keyboard and the chair. Sorry.

Youre not following me. So a sorc needs to give up a damage set to run brass. Forget your shields comment because you won't be able to sustain them WITHOUT A SUSTAIN SET. So the sorc gives up what? spinners for a sustain set? Wait, that means no damage at all. And I hope you didn't mean to insinuate sorc has good healing bc of healing ward next patch but even if you did, with your build you couldn't sustain healing ward.

All that work to have the survivability of heavy while wearing light with zero damage lol. Meanwhile heavy has the survivability that it does which is way better than the other 2 weights of armour with a ton of damage from fury and 7th. So why wouldn't the entire eso pop not run heavy w fury and 7th? I didn't think I needed to explain the obvious.

I thought sorcs used harness + hardened for some reason. Considering hardened will be nerfed and that empowered also give you extra magicka regen... so maybe they can cope with the change.

By the way, if you use harness with high resistances, it would be a great case of how to recover stats by getting targeted by magicka skills.

Now a question to you, you talk and talk about fury and 7th legion like they are the magical stamina sets of killing, but, how do you sustain using those sets? Because none of them has any stat on stam recovery. Sure, you can go with 3 recovery glyphs, but even with that is not enough.

On the other hand, medium has access to veiled heritance through jewelry, a set that procs even on dots.

HeroOfNone · October 2018

Issue you'll have here is proc sets will still deliver a good baseline of damage, regardless of stats. I also don't think all builds are necessarily bad that heavy armor gives burst damage back of players foolishly keep hitting them with weak attacks (fury, 7th legion, etc.).

But I agree there is an issue in ESO when you can be tanky, healy, or damage based because so much is based on such a few amount of stats. Adding new stats or buffs tend to only cause issues, and a majority of the issue is in PVP, so it's one we don't want to necessarily implement everywhere.

An idea I've had, but never fully fleshed out the numbers, would be giving 3 to 4 different battle spirit buffs. Only 1 could be active at a time, but can be swapped at a keep or redrawn area. Here's the current buff:

Increase Health by 5000
Reduce damage taken by 50%
Reduce healing received and damage shield strength by 50%
Increase range of abilities with greater than 28m range by 8m in Cyrodiil

Based on this the different options I would add would be:
1. Tank - damage, healing done, and shield done reduced 20-30% (stacked atop that you recieve), critical resistance up about 1200-1500, 7000 health added (instead of 5k), additional damage reduced by 60% (instead of 50%)
2. DPS - damage done increased to 15-20%, no health bonus, healing, health recovery, & shields done reduced by 30%,
3. Healer - healing & shields done increased to 10-15%, damage done reduced by 35%
4. Balance - damage, health recovery healing, and shields reduced by 15%, health stamina & magicka increased by 1500 each, stamina & magicka recovery increased by 250 each

These numbers can be adjusted, like I said I haven't had much chance to see how a balance here might work, but the focus would be moving into a 3 role 1 hybrid approach. Another important not would be "outgoing" affects proc sets as well, so even if you build tanky, out going heals or damage procs would be affected. Lastly, the reduction of health recovery sets is also important so DPS classes don't bypass heal debuffs with troll king.

Other effects for these roles could be things like reduced rebuff time,cheaper CC removal, etc. But giving proper boosts in one area and reductions in others so player are a supper tanky, healy, and damage burst type build should be achievable somehow.

Xvorg · October 2018

I forgot to mention: Next patch armor master on medium is gonna be a thing. Just slot shuffle to get 5% extra health, and use shuffle to get almost 5.5 K spell and weapon res for 10 secs PLUS a 25% dmg reduction to AoEs.

Crixus8000 · October 2018

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Based on this the different options I would add would be:
1. Tank - damage, healing done, and shield done reduced 20-30% (stacked atop that you recieve), critical resistance up about 1200-1500, 7000 health added (instead of 5k), additional damage reduced by 60% (instead of 50%)

And what would be classed as a tank ? or you just choose what buff you want ? Because if that would be the battle spirit for wearing heavy then again it would be useless. Getting 30% less damage and healing would be terrible for solo players. Extra hp and crit res don't do much if our heals are weak and we can't kill anything.

HeroOfNone · October 2018

Crixus8000 wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Based on this the different options I would add would be:
1. Tank - damage, healing done, and shield done reduced 20-30% (stacked atop that you recieve), critical resistance up about 1200-1500, 7000 health added (instead of 5k), additional damage reduced by 60% (instead of 50%)

And what would be classed as a tank ? Because if that would be the battle spirit for wearing heavy then again it would be useless. Getting 30% less damage and healing would be terrible for solo players. Extra hp and crit res don't do much if our heals are weak and we can't kill anything.

Most PVP is based around group balance, not solo balance. If you were solo Yolo you'd likely want fast kills so would go DPS. Tank based you could take on multiple people, debuff, waste resources, but without a healer or DPS you'd likely be screwed unless you specifically built to over come the damage reduction to take advantage of the armor.

You trade something for everything, removing the "have everything" builds (hopefully)

Oh, and if I wasn't clear, 1 of the 4 would be mandatory. So players would have to choose what battle spirit to go with, but we'd eliminate the battle spirit we have now.

Crixus8000 · October 2018

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Based on this the different options I would add would be:
1. Tank - damage, healing done, and shield done reduced 20-30% (stacked atop that you recieve), critical resistance up about 1200-1500, 7000 health added (instead of 5k), additional damage reduced by 60% (instead of 50%)

And what would be classed as a tank ? Because if that would be the battle spirit for wearing heavy then again it would be useless. Getting 30% less damage and healing would be terrible for solo players. Extra hp and crit res don't do much if our heals are weak and we can't kill anything.

Most PVP is based around group balance, not solo balance. If you were solo Yolo you'd likely want fast kills so would go DPS. Tank based you could take on multiple people, debuff, waste resources, but without a healer or DPS you'd likely be screwed unless you specifically built to over come the damage reduction to take advantage of the armor.

You trade something for everything, removing the "have everything" builds (hopefully)

Oh, and if I wasn't clear, 1 of the 4 would be mandatory. So players would have to choose what battle spirit to go with, but we'd eliminate the battle spirit we have now.

Then I'm sorry but I just disagree. I'm a solo player so forced to pick a group role is against how I play the game. Solo players need to be decent all round or they can't play solo. And when your fighting alone just going dps doesn't work, having really high damage alone means nothing if you die in 2 seconds because your outnumbered, you need decent survivability and speed to help with that.

SilverPaws · October 2018

@Crixus8000
Don't argue with zerglings they just won't see reason, they want us soloers and small scalers nerfed so everyone join the no brain zergs without a bit of skill.

Always when i see this zerglings they don't use cc's, defile, snares nothing… And then you have threads like this that heavy is overperforming, speed pots overperforming. If they didn't came on forum to cry always when they die to good player and used that time to learn then less these pointless threads would show up, but nope a lot "pvpers" don't want just to learn, they want easy kills with no working to get them.

And then we.. Those who worked hard to get good, must suffer nerfs because of these people who are unable to learn.

Ocelot9x · October 2018

The problem with medium is that a shuffle cast negate all the recovery benefits from passives. Otherwise I would be running medium all the time.
Also light is so much better for Magicka since the penetration passive is HUGE and that bonus itself provide more than a 5fth piece,so you can run a defensive set and light armor,having more of everything. Every mag player smallscaling with me is wearing a tanky light setup.

Kanar · October 2018

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Zos gave us all these great heavy WD sets so clearly they want us to use heavy. Try to find a medium armor set as good as 7th or Veiled.
Briarheart? No. Senche? No. All medium has is some proc sets and stam sustain sets, it doesn't even have a decent set that gives mag sustain, we have to go to light for that (prisoner's or desert rose). So until we get some decent sets in medium that aren't proc sets like viper, there's no point to use it.

I mean sure, medium could do with some better set options, but what's stopping people from using veiled or 7th on a medium build ?

Fury & 7th are contrary to medium design (not getting hit). Veiled you could wear but if you wanna stay medium then your other set has to be a medium one, which means locking yourself out of any set with magicka sustain except shackle and any of the defensive heavy sets.

HeroOfNone · October 2018

Crixus8000 wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Based on this the different options I would add would be:
1. Tank - damage, healing done, and shield done reduced 20-30% (stacked atop that you recieve), critical resistance up about 1200-1500, 7000 health added (instead of 5k), additional damage reduced by 60% (instead of 50%)

And what would be classed as a tank ? Because if that would be the battle spirit for wearing heavy then again it would be useless. Getting 30% less damage and healing would be terrible for solo players. Extra hp and crit res don't do much if our heals are weak and we can't kill anything.

Most PVP is based around group balance, not solo balance. If you were solo Yolo you'd likely want fast kills so would go DPS. Tank based you could take on multiple people, debuff, waste resources, but without a healer or DPS you'd likely be screwed unless you specifically built to over come the damage reduction to take advantage of the armor.

You trade something for everything, removing the "have everything" builds (hopefully)

Oh, and if I wasn't clear, 1 of the 4 would be mandatory. So players would have to choose what battle spirit to go with, but we'd eliminate the battle spirit we have now.

Then I'm sorry but I just disagree. I'm a solo player so forced to pick a group role is against how I play the game. Solo players need to be decent all round or they can't play solo. And when your fighting alone just going dps doesn't work, having really high damage alone means nothing if you die in 2 seconds because your outnumbered, you need decent survivability and speed to help with that.

In which case there is the balanced route or you can build your defenses up in a proper build while in a DPS route.

In almost any other MMO you would not see the kind of high damage with high resistance with high healing, as they separate out the stats and resources to use abilities doing also factor into damage. We've got to stop babying in do everything builds and accept some weakness into the bud schemas, otherwise it's all the same formula.

Don't worry so much though, everyone else playing by the same rules means they would, so there would be at least one to two weaknesses you can play around. Not everyone will be playing a rock that can smash scissors and rip through paper.

Also, I like to play with just fists and pantless. Used to be able to tank dungeons in sll medium and even naked at times. Doesn't mean ZOS has to cater to my whims, but what makes the most sense to given challenge and enjoyment out of the game. Might not like the fact you die or you can't 1vX with a change like this, but if the "X" is enjoying themselves more, I'd side with the majority on that.

Xvorg · October 2018

Ocelot9x wrote: »

The problem with medium is that a shuffle cast negate all the recovery benefits from passives. Otherwise I would be running medium all the time.
Also light is so much better for Magicka since the penetration passive is HUGE and that bonus itself provide more than a 5fth piece,so you can run a defensive set and light armor,having more of everything. Every mag player smallscaling with me is wearing a tanky light setup.

Ok, here we have a good reasoning.

Light is better than medium mostly because the penetration passive does not a direct direct hit by BS. On the other hand the dmg passive of medium do get a most direct hit by BS.

Then, Medium must build towards mitigation in theory, but in practice it is build towards dmg (for mitigation you have heavy). An interesting workaround to keep certain dmg is to lean towards bleed builds, but the problem is that the best bleed (twin slashes) has a morph that has a heal associated, so there's no real reason to run medium. In fact,when running heavy you get better benefits since it's a bigger heal and spends way less stam for doing what medium must do with slashes and vigor.

Momentum falls in the same category and since you get a decent heal while getting the same buff, there's also little reason to run medium.

If the heal of Blood craze was based on dmg done rather than a fixed amount, then you will have a reason to, at least, run medium instead of heavy on a bleed build without having to nerf heavy sets. Another solution could be to increase the stam recovery of medium or decrease the stam cost of the skills.

Currently, bleed builds in heavy are niche and dependant of the behaviour of the guy attacking them. Do you want to burst them in the same way you burst LA users? No, that's imposible, in fact you should re-think that. That's why i believe the first focus to deal with HA shouldn't be their health bar, but their stam bar. No stam, no skills. Au contraire, medium armor builds should survive that playing style.

rfennell_ESO · October 2018

ezio45 wrote: »

Its time to do something about heavy armor builds with high damage, Players in 5-7 heavy shouldnt be able to take players in light or medium armor.

A great way to do this without effecting heavy armor healer? Add to battle spirit that every piece of heavy armor after 1 reduces spell and physical pen by 3k ish

At 3k reduced pen a player wearing 5 pc of heavy will be down 15k pen and thats the average amount of penetration you can get out of heavy armor build. They wont be able to kill anything, which is how TANKS SHOULD BE . Bleed and oblivion dmg might still be a problem but this should do a decent job of fixing things.

Heavy healers will be fine because pen doesnt effect heals

All the really needed to do to heavy armor is make it so that with 5 pieces of heavy your movement speed is capped at 60% and sprint cost is increased.

Expert · October 2018

They're nerfing shields on sorcs because they didn't like having the combination of tanking and doing damage. Heavy armor is the same way, tanking and still doing plenty damage. So i don't see why this shouldn't be the same, if shields get nerf then make it reasonable to have a counterplay for heavy armor.

It's easier to build up resistances than it is to build up spell penetration or physical penetration. Out of how many sets providing resistances or crit resist, there's only 1 set that provides penetration. We need a balance in this ZOS, Ele Drain, spinners is not enough when tanks have 30k hp and 25-30k resistances. The best setup I could think of was working up to 17.4k spell pen, but why is it easier to rack up 30k resistances than it is to have 17.4k pentration (CP included).

If the focus is about nerfing everybody so that casual players can succeed, then you will definitely need to rework on heavy armor because everyone is using it to sustain and still do high damage thanks to your sets.

So add some tools that we can utilize that destroys 30k hp high resistance tanks, such as a set that drops their resistances or add a better version of a spinners set because that set is getting slowly outdated with newer sets.

CritsTheBed · October 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

CritsTheBed wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

CritsTheBed wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

CritsTheBed wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

CritsTheBed wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Why shouldn't a Player in heavy not be able to take a person in medium or light?
Makes no sense, are you saying that the type of armor you wear should decide a battle?
Then should a player in medium not be able to take a player in light armor?

Becuase you shouldnt be able to have 25-30k resist and 30k health and do high amounts of dps to players. As of right now there is no reason not to run heavy as a dps. A heavy armor build can be over pen'ing players, everage medium and light resist is around 15k and it is EASY to get that much penetration.

Why not? Because tanks should't be able to do dmg?

Do I have to explain you how that battle ended?

I agree that heavy should't be as mobile as medium or light, but by no way it should do less dmg per se

So everybody runs stam heavy armour 2h/dw bc of way better survivability and 7k weapon damage. And I mean everybody. 100% of the population. Because why would you gimp yourself when the copy paste 7th/fury/bs heavy armour meta is a ton better?

The point is those few sets combined with heavy are overperforming AND there are 2 other less desirable weights and a ton of sets that just sit bc why use them? Were talking about BALANCE. Damage vs survivability between 3 weights of armour and out of line sets.

bal·ance
ˈbaləns/noun: balance; plural noun: balances - condition in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions.

And your approach to get balance is "nerf heavy"?

As I mentioned above, heavy should be less mobile than medium or light. But doing less dmg than medium? Do you really want to send heavy to Oblivion?

Yes and some heavy armour sets. Heavy armour has WAAAAY more survivability than medium or light and if youre running heavy, chances are your running 7th/fury/bs which is more damage than mag and right up there with a divines gank build. So slowing heavy down a bit wont fix much. Like Irylia said earlier, nerf the offending sets. Put some kinda of mitigation or cc immunity in med and light passives and POOF medium and light will be relevant again.

Are you kidding? The 3 types have around the same survaibility, the thing is that both, medium and light require skill, while Heavy don't, but that's all. Sure, they can hit the armor cap, but medium can do that too using Brass. Even light can get as high as 23k resistance combining Almalexia's Mercy with Alessia's Bulwark and that's without using major ward/Resolve and also they give you 2 very interesting procs (Did you know you can proc alma heal with equilibrium?)

Heavy also lacks the resource recovery the other two have and the only way to keep on battle is by receiving dmg. Use a poison that drains stam, a stun and 43 points into the siphoning CP star, and the guy is done, no way he can build stam as quick and as reliabily as medium.

You lost the second you threw in brass. Med and light needs give up a damage set to survive but heavy gets to run 7th, fury or ravager which is extremely high damage and the benefits of heavy survival. How in the world is that the same to you?

How do you give up survival on light? Last time I checked there was a skill called "healing ward" that does wonders on light armor, especially if you have a low health bar. Same as this other skill called dampen magicka, that escalates better with your magicka pool. So if you build magicka, you get both, extra dmg and extra mitigation. So a combo of brass + spinners next patch will not only give you the 40% max health shield, but also a shield with a huge resistance, while getting extra penetration.

I'm afraid your problem with heavy is in between the keyboard and the chair. Sorry.

Youre not following me. So a sorc needs to give up a damage set to run brass. Forget your shields comment because you won't be able to sustain them WITHOUT A SUSTAIN SET. So the sorc gives up what? spinners for a sustain set? Wait, that means no damage at all. And I hope you didn't mean to insinuate sorc has good healing bc of healing ward next patch but even if you did, with your build you couldn't sustain healing ward.

All that work to have the survivability of heavy while wearing light with zero damage lol. Meanwhile heavy has the survivability that it does which is way better than the other 2 weights of armour with a ton of damage from fury and 7th. So why wouldn't the entire eso pop not run heavy w fury and 7th? I didn't think I needed to explain the obvious.

I thought sorcs used harness + hardened for some reason. Considering hardened will be nerfed and that empowered also give you extra magicka regen... so maybe they can cope with the change.

By the way, if you use harness with high resistances, it would be a great case of how to recover stats by getting targeted by magicka skills.

Now a question to you, you talk and talk about fury and 7th legion like they are the magical stamina sets of killing, but, how do you sustain using those sets? Because none of them has any stat on stam recovery. Sure, you can go with 3 recovery glyphs, but even with that is not enough.

On the other hand, medium has access to veiled heritance through jewelry, a set that procs even on dots.

Harness is useless in most situations since most are running the copy paste Stam build. With the fotm Stam build there's no prerequisite on the attacks you get your survivability from. But sorc with it's upcoming nerfs is supposed to be fine with scraps like run harness and hope you find a mag class to fight or sustaining hardened wearing brass with no sustain set and extremely poor healing. Just bad information man.

In heavy with seventh,fury, bs, with that much wd heals are huge and not very hard to rip heavy attacks when you have that much healing going. One recovery glyph is fine.

Xeniph · October 2018

Anyone complaining about the resistances of Heavy armor has clearly never done the math.
The mitigation differences are really a joke once compared side by side.

Best possible distribution of armor weight in a 5/1/1 set up for all weights. (does not include class/race/guild buffs as those would just simply even out per weight) {* Also no sets tested had no resistance bonuses)

(disparity from heavy)

Light= %17.6 Spell mitigation %14.8 Physical mitigation / (%6.8 Spell mitigation %9.1 Physical mitigation)

Med= %18.6 Spell mitigation %18.1 Physical mitigation / (%5.8 Spell mitigation %5.8 Physical mitigation)

Hvy = %24.4 Spell mitigation %23.9 Physical mitigation

As we can see here the difference is quite small. Heavy is not some weight of armor that magically makes you THAT much more tanky. The passives and set bonuses are where the real differences are but when considering the heavy armor passives, the DPS does not come from there any longer.

The power in a build comes from building around passive and races, plus buffs and abilities. When one pairs it together well, any weight of armor will compliment said build properly.

Edit* Source used for %calculations https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1

Kanar · October 2018

Xeniph wrote: »

Anyone complaining about the resistances of Heavy armor has clearly never done the math.
The mitigation differences are really a joke once compared side by side.

Best possible distribution of armor weight in a 5/1/1 set up for all weights. (does not include class/race/guild buffs as those would just simply even out per weight) {* Also no sets tested had any resistance bonuses)

(disparity from heavy)

Light= %17.6 Spell mitigation %14.8 Physical mitigation / (%6.8 Spell mitigation %9.1 Physical mitigation)

Med= %18.6 Spell mitigation %18.1 Physical mitigation / (%5.8 Spell mitigation %5.8 Physical mitigation)

Hvy = %24.4 Spell mitigation %23.9 Physical mitigation

As we can see here the difference is quite small. Heavy is not some weight of armor that magically makes you THAT much more tanky. The passive are where the real differences are and when considering the heavy armor ones, the DPS does not come from there any longer.

The power in a build comes from building around passive and races, plus buffs and abilities. When one pairs it together well, any weight of armor will compliment said build properly.

Edit* Source used for %calculations https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1

When people talk about heavy being more resilient, they're not just referring to the res. They're referring to the passives as well which means more res, more health, more health recovery, more healing taken.

As a whole, that collection of benefits is way better than what garbage medium armor gives.

Defilted · October 2018

Why cant medium just be buffed to compete with heavy and light armor? Medium sets have ton of damage and damage 5 PC bonuses. What if Shuffle added resistances? Why cant a medium armor user use crafted armor set if they need more resistance? I switched to heavy as a StamSorc becasue I was getting destroyed and had to get higher resistances. My damage did go down for sure compared to my medium user characters. INstead of sitting at the 3K plus mark without buffs, My heavy was sitting at 2600 with buff. Armor set proc pushes it over 3k, but way less than medium builds.

I have a magicka DK running heavy with Destro/Destro and it is a decent build and I do get kills with it in Cyro. I am sure that Srocs could run heavy as well if they really wanted to. Specifically with crafting jewelry into your crafted heavy set.

I do not agree that heavy should be tank armor only. I agree with some others that have commented, stating that if ZOS did want to tone the damage from heavy down, tone the set damage down 10 to 15%. I do not think this is really needed either

Medium armor Stam builds kill in Cyro all the time. StamWarden Spin to win build is killing all kinds of players right now in Cyro.

Are the medium builds going full glass cannon, then getting upset when they get killed by a heavy armor build that is balanced around resistances and damage/resources?

Corrected a statement that had the wrong armor type mentioned.

Xeniph · October 2018

Kanar wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Anyone complaining about the resistances of Heavy armor has clearly never done the math.
The mitigation differences are really a joke once compared side by side.

Best possible distribution of armor weight in a 5/1/1 set up for all weights. (does not include class/race/guild buffs as those would just simply even out per weight) {* Also no sets tested had any resistance bonuses)

(disparity from heavy)

Light= %17.6 Spell mitigation %14.8 Physical mitigation / (%6.8 Spell mitigation %9.1 Physical mitigation)

Med= %18.6 Spell mitigation %18.1 Physical mitigation / (%5.8 Spell mitigation %5.8 Physical mitigation)

Hvy = %24.4 Spell mitigation %23.9 Physical mitigation

As we can see here the difference is quite small. Heavy is not some weight of armor that magically makes you THAT much more tanky. The passive are where the real differences are and when considering the heavy armor ones, the DPS does not come from there any longer.

The power in a build comes from building around passive and races, plus buffs and abilities. When one pairs it together well, any weight of armor will compliment said build properly.

Edit* Source used for %calculations https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1

When people talk about heavy being more resilient, they're not just referring to the res. They're referring to the passives as well which means more res, more health, more health recovery, more healing taken.

As a whole, that collection of benefits is way better than what garbage medium armor gives.

True, but it's still a tradeoff.

To achieve this, damage and sustain must be sacrificed. Which in my book is balanced. And furthermore, who cares what weight of armor you run if it fits your build intentions, aside from some form of roleplay aspect.

I mean if you want to be a heavy armored mag sorc, or you feel it's more effective, why then complain and resist? I think it's because of the "immersion".

If not for that reason then it's because they do like the DPS and reduced cost the other armor weight provides, but are unhappy someones build counter theirs.

Edit* And I'd like to add, that it is not better than medium or light in different builds. Which was my point. If you want to DPS from stealth with a stamina kit, you won't see ANYONE wearing light or heavy as their 5 primary weight. This promotes build diversity.

Miswar · October 2018

The heavy armour thing has been absurd for longtime.

You wearing heavy = Fine. You are more like tank not an dps character.

Easy solution and propably the only solution to get out of this mess would be to cut weapon/spell damage -10% per heavy armour piece weared.

Thus you deciede to run 5 Heavy pieces -> reduces the spell/weapon damage 50%.

Simple as that and you want to do high dps -> Go medium or light. You want to troll and tank -> Go heavy, however do not expect to pull of these ridicilious +4500 weapong damage numbers wearing heavy sets.

You do that than you will see more variety builds and people even would need to learn the game instead of been carried by their gear sets.

GrigorijMalahevich · October 2018

2016 have called - they want their topic back

Wuuffyy · October 2018

Miswar wrote: »

The heavy armour thing has been absurd for longtime.

You wearing heavy = Fine. You are more like tank not an dps character.

Easy solution and propably the only solution to get out of this mess would be to cut weapon/spell damage -10% per heavy armour piece weared.

Thus you deciede to run 5 Heavy pieces -> reduces the spell/weapon damage 50%.

Simple as that and you want to do high dps -> Go medium or light. You want to troll and tank -> Go heavy, however do not expect to pull of these ridicilious +4500 weapong damage numbers wearing heavy sets.

You do that than you will see more variety builds and people even would need to learn the game instead of been carried by their gear sets.

Man I have to use heavy for WW. Tons of games are heavy armor meta. It doesn’t make since. If anything get rid of med and light and buff heavy.

usmcjdking · October 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

HAs problem is that is really has no weakness. Anything that's built to deal with heavy armor more often than not is more effective vs. light & medium. The only HA hard counter that I'm aware of is Maces/Mauls which scale incredibly well with HA and poorly vs. light.

A significant buff to maces/mauls might be enough to reign in HA to an acceptable degree.

Heavy has no shields, not many rolls, and for mag no mobility, (light gets some next patch with grace) weaker damage and weaker sustain.

It is completely *** by blatantly Op bleeds which heavy armour builds have nothing but healing, a la shield breaker. On live you can shield them to prevent their crits, or dodge/escape. Can't in mag heavy.
Defiled, which chews into heavy armour passives, again, can't shield, dodge, run, heavy by itself only has just mitigation+healing. And the meta bleed blades (and other builds) can take that away instantly.

So much for no weaknesses.

The only explanation for this is that you are awful. There is not a single medium or light armor DK that is going to outlive a heavy armor DK under any circumstance, ever.

Wing · October 2018

heavy was used evenly back when ZOS published the stats on players in Cyro (they were all about even with each other this was way pre summerset btw.) and after that it has recived nerfs to both its passives AND the popular heavy pvp sets.

given that I would wager its now the least used armor type in pvp.

Kronuxx · October 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

The first avenue of approach for balancing HA should be to buff the ever loving *** out of Mace/Maul and see where it falls out.

Now that's an interesting idea. Hella lot better than the OP's

It is. The OP's idea, just as his post, is moronic and sounds like a child throwing a tantrum that someone beat him.

Kronuxx · October 2018

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Its time to do something about heavy armor builds with high damage, Players in 5-7 heavy shouldnt be able to take players in light or medium armor.

A great way to do this without effecting heavy armor healer? Add to battle spirit that every piece of heavy armor after 1 reduces spell and physical pen by 3k ish

At 3k reduced pen a player wearing 5 pc of heavy will be down 15k pen and thats the average amount of penetration you can get out of heavy armor build. They wont be able to kill anything, which is how TANKS SHOULD BE . Bleed and oblivion dmg might still be a problem but this should do a decent job of fixing things.

Heavy healers will be fine because pen doesnt effect heals

So i loose 3k pen by going 5-2-0?

Anyway, heavy is strong yes cause with 7th and Fury you can get pretty decent weapon damage but 0 sustain. You need to sustain with heavy attacks. If your enemy is at least a bit competetive it just takes him a right click to delete your sustain.

I wouldnt say nerf heavy. I would say buff light and medium armor to bring them to a point where they offer more sustain and damage then heavy. Heavy should still be a viable option and not made 100% useless with your suggested Change.

Heavy armor is one of the last Tools for solo/smallscale players they can utilize to survive masses of brainless zerglings.

Gnozo wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Its time to do something about heavy armor builds with high damage, Players in 5-7 heavy shouldnt be able to take players in light or medium armor.

A great way to do this without effecting heavy armor healer? Add to battle spirit that every piece of heavy armor after 1 reduces spell and physical pen by 3k ish

At 3k reduced pen a player wearing 5 pc of heavy will be down 15k pen and thats the average amount of penetration you can get out of heavy armor build. They wont be able to kill anything, which is how TANKS SHOULD BE . Bleed and oblivion dmg might still be a problem but this should do a decent job of fixing things.

Heavy healers will be fine because pen doesnt effect heals

So i loose 3k pen by going 5-2-0?

Anyway, heavy is strong yes cause with 7th and Fury you can get pretty decent weapon damage but 0 sustain. You need to sustain with heavy attacks. If your enemy is at least a bit competetive it just takes him a right click to delete your sustain.

I wouldnt say nerf heavy. I would say buff light and medium armor to bring them to a point where they offer more sustain and damage then heavy. Heavy should still be a viable option and not made 100% useless with your suggested Change.

Heavy armor is one of the last Tools for solo/smallscale players they can utilize to survive masses of brainless zerglings.

Gnozo wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Its time to do something about heavy armor builds with high damage, Players in 5-7 heavy shouldnt be able to take players in light or medium armor.

A great way to do this without effecting heavy armor healer? Add to battle spirit that every piece of heavy armor after 1 reduces spell and physical pen by 3k ish

At 3k reduced pen a player wearing 5 pc of heavy will be down 15k pen and thats the average amount of penetration you can get out of heavy armor build. They wont be able to kill anything, which is how TANKS SHOULD BE . Bleed and oblivion dmg might still be a problem but this should do a decent job of fixing things.

Heavy healers will be fine because pen doesnt effect heals

So i loose 3k pen by going 5-2-0?

Anyway, heavy is strong yes cause with 7th and Fury you can get pretty decent weapon damage but 0 sustain. You need to sustain with heavy attacks. If your enemy is at least a bit competetive it just takes him a right click to delete your sustain.

I wouldnt say nerf heavy. I would say buff light and medium armor to bring them to a point where they offer more sustain and damage then heavy. Heavy should still be a viable option and not made 100% useless with your suggested Change.

Heavy armor is one of the last Tools for solo/smallscale players they can utilize to survive masses of brainless zerglings.

Gnozo wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Its time to do something about heavy armor builds with high damage, Players in 5-7 heavy shouldnt be able to take players in light or medium armor.

A great way to do this without effecting heavy armor healer? Add to battle spirit that every piece of heavy armor after 1 reduces spell and physical pen by 3k ish

At 3k reduced pen a player wearing 5 pc of heavy will be down 15k pen and thats the average amount of penetration you can get out of heavy armor build. They wont be able to kill anything, which is how TANKS SHOULD BE . Bleed and oblivion dmg might still be a problem but this should do a decent job of fixing things.

Heavy healers will be fine because pen doesnt effect heals

So i loose 3k pen by going 5-2-0?

Anyway, heavy is strong yes cause with 7th and Fury you can get pretty decent weapon damage but 0 sustain. You need to sustain with heavy attacks. If your enemy is at least a bit competetive it just takes him a right click to delete your sustain.

I wouldnt say nerf heavy. I would say buff light and medium armor to bring them to a point where they offer more sustain and damage then heavy. Heavy should still be a viable option and not made 100% useless with your suggested Change.

Heavy armor is one of the last Tools for solo/smallscale players they can utilize to survive masses of brainless zerglings.

Wanna take a guess why folks Zerg? Because unkillelable small scale guys in heavy armor bursting just shy of a light armor build who cannot be killed. They then come and post on the boards about how elite they are because of broken game mechanics.

No heavy armor build is unkillable. If i manage to kill these "op, heavy armor unkillable Builds" in a 1v1. Everyone should be able to do it.

These so called pugs who cry over heavy armor are the ones who use light and heavy attacks as their main source of damage and dont even use any heal if you stand in Front of them deleting their HP. They even continue heavy attacking. I am sorry but that wont get you killed anything

If you Go medium armor you are forced to rely on dodge roll to mitigate damage. And tbh, only a nightblade can make proper use of medium cause they can reset the dodge roll cooldown with cloak.

DKs are build to run heavy armor, wardens are. They are build for it. And every heavy armor build can be killed. They are not immortal. They are immortal to pugs, so is medium and light .

It requires zero skill for a DK to kill a Sorc. If you don’t use lightning staff for heavy attacks your options are limited. It takes much more skill for a Sorc to kill a DK. The fact you are even disputing the imbalance and trying to frame it any other way shows your argument is trolling or you are misled. I have deliberately been playing with one damage shield recently to prepare for the upcoming patch. It takes kiting, placement of burst and luck to kill a good DK. All they have to do is wait for me to make one mistake and leap and my entire healthbar is gone. That’s silly and imbalanced and if you aren’t aware of it maybe you are the pug. It takes zero skill to play a heavy armor meta right now and it has been that way for quite some time. Hopefully, the devs see this and you will have to actually earn your kills soon.

Wow, you are completely clueless. The effort and timing for a DK is miles beyond sorc. Clearly all you play is a sorc. Go home kid and post somewhere else, like that forum post about sharing pics of outfits. At least there you can't be wrong.

IlCanis_LupuslI · October 2018

ezio45 wrote: »

Its time to do something about heavy armor builds with high damage, Players in 5-7 heavy shouldnt be able to take players in light or medium armor.

A great way to do this without effecting heavy armor healer? Add to battle spirit that every piece of heavy armor after 1 reduces spell and physical pen by 3k ish

At 3k reduced pen a player wearing 5 pc of heavy will be down 15k pen and thats the average amount of penetration you can get out of heavy armor build. They wont be able to kill anything, which is how TANKS SHOULD BE . Bleed and oblivion dmg might still be a problem but this should do a decent job of fixing things.

Heavy healers will be fine because pen doesnt effect heals

I have to use heavy on ww.... And heavy isn't the problem it's 7th & fury....

Illuvatarr · October 2018

Kronuxx wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Its time to do something about heavy armor builds with high damage, Players in 5-7 heavy shouldnt be able to take players in light or medium armor.

A great way to do this without effecting heavy armor healer? Add to battle spirit that every piece of heavy armor after 1 reduces spell and physical pen by 3k ish

At 3k reduced pen a player wearing 5 pc of heavy will be down 15k pen and thats the average amount of penetration you can get out of heavy armor build. They wont be able to kill anything, which is how TANKS SHOULD BE . Bleed and oblivion dmg might still be a problem but this should do a decent job of fixing things.

Heavy healers will be fine because pen doesnt effect heals

So i loose 3k pen by going 5-2-0?

Anyway, heavy is strong yes cause with 7th and Fury you can get pretty decent weapon damage but 0 sustain. You need to sustain with heavy attacks. If your enemy is at least a bit competetive it just takes him a right click to delete your sustain.

I wouldnt say nerf heavy. I would say buff light and medium armor to bring them to a point where they offer more sustain and damage then heavy. Heavy should still be a viable option and not made 100% useless with your suggested Change.

Heavy armor is one of the last Tools for solo/smallscale players they can utilize to survive masses of brainless zerglings.

Gnozo wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Its time to do something about heavy armor builds with high damage, Players in 5-7 heavy shouldnt be able to take players in light or medium armor.

A great way to do this without effecting heavy armor healer? Add to battle spirit that every piece of heavy armor after 1 reduces spell and physical pen by 3k ish

At 3k reduced pen a player wearing 5 pc of heavy will be down 15k pen and thats the average amount of penetration you can get out of heavy armor build. They wont be able to kill anything, which is how TANKS SHOULD BE . Bleed and oblivion dmg might still be a problem but this should do a decent job of fixing things.

Heavy healers will be fine because pen doesnt effect heals

So i loose 3k pen by going 5-2-0?

Anyway, heavy is strong yes cause with 7th and Fury you can get pretty decent weapon damage but 0 sustain. You need to sustain with heavy attacks. If your enemy is at least a bit competetive it just takes him a right click to delete your sustain.

I wouldnt say nerf heavy. I would say buff light and medium armor to bring them to a point where they offer more sustain and damage then heavy. Heavy should still be a viable option and not made 100% useless with your suggested Change.

Heavy armor is one of the last Tools for solo/smallscale players they can utilize to survive masses of brainless zerglings.

Gnozo wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Its time to do something about heavy armor builds with high damage, Players in 5-7 heavy shouldnt be able to take players in light or medium armor.

A great way to do this without effecting heavy armor healer? Add to battle spirit that every piece of heavy armor after 1 reduces spell and physical pen by 3k ish

At 3k reduced pen a player wearing 5 pc of heavy will be down 15k pen and thats the average amount of penetration you can get out of heavy armor build. They wont be able to kill anything, which is how TANKS SHOULD BE . Bleed and oblivion dmg might still be a problem but this should do a decent job of fixing things.

Heavy healers will be fine because pen doesnt effect heals

So i loose 3k pen by going 5-2-0?

Anyway, heavy is strong yes cause with 7th and Fury you can get pretty decent weapon damage but 0 sustain. You need to sustain with heavy attacks. If your enemy is at least a bit competetive it just takes him a right click to delete your sustain.

I wouldnt say nerf heavy. I would say buff light and medium armor to bring them to a point where they offer more sustain and damage then heavy. Heavy should still be a viable option and not made 100% useless with your suggested Change.

Heavy armor is one of the last Tools for solo/smallscale players they can utilize to survive masses of brainless zerglings.

Gnozo wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Its time to do something about heavy armor builds with high damage, Players in 5-7 heavy shouldnt be able to take players in light or medium armor.

A great way to do this without effecting heavy armor healer? Add to battle spirit that every piece of heavy armor after 1 reduces spell and physical pen by 3k ish

At 3k reduced pen a player wearing 5 pc of heavy will be down 15k pen and thats the average amount of penetration you can get out of heavy armor build. They wont be able to kill anything, which is how TANKS SHOULD BE . Bleed and oblivion dmg might still be a problem but this should do a decent job of fixing things.

Heavy healers will be fine because pen doesnt effect heals

So i loose 3k pen by going 5-2-0?

Anyway, heavy is strong yes cause with 7th and Fury you can get pretty decent weapon damage but 0 sustain. You need to sustain with heavy attacks. If your enemy is at least a bit competetive it just takes him a right click to delete your sustain.

I wouldnt say nerf heavy. I would say buff light and medium armor to bring them to a point where they offer more sustain and damage then heavy. Heavy should still be a viable option and not made 100% useless with your suggested Change.

Heavy armor is one of the last Tools for solo/smallscale players they can utilize to survive masses of brainless zerglings.

Wanna take a guess why folks Zerg? Because unkillelable small scale guys in heavy armor bursting just shy of a light armor build who cannot be killed. They then come and post on the boards about how elite they are because of broken game mechanics.

No heavy armor build is unkillable. If i manage to kill these "op, heavy armor unkillable Builds" in a 1v1. Everyone should be able to do it.

These so called pugs who cry over heavy armor are the ones who use light and heavy attacks as their main source of damage and dont even use any heal if you stand in Front of them deleting their HP. They even continue heavy attacking. I am sorry but that wont get you killed anything

If you Go medium armor you are forced to rely on dodge roll to mitigate damage. And tbh, only a nightblade can make proper use of medium cause they can reset the dodge roll cooldown with cloak.

DKs are build to run heavy armor, wardens are. They are build for it. And every heavy armor build can be killed. They are not immortal. They are immortal to pugs, so is medium and light .

It requires zero skill for a DK to kill a Sorc. If you don’t use lightning staff for heavy attacks your options are limited. It takes much more skill for a Sorc to kill a DK. The fact you are even disputing the imbalance and trying to frame it any other way shows your argument is trolling or you are misled. I have deliberately been playing with one damage shield recently to prepare for the upcoming patch. It takes kiting, placement of burst and luck to kill a good DK. All they have to do is wait for me to make one mistake and leap and my entire healthbar is gone. That’s silly and imbalanced and if you aren’t aware of it maybe you are the pug. It takes zero skill to play a heavy armor meta right now and it has been that way for quite some time. Hopefully, the devs see this and you will have to actually earn your kills soon.

Wow, you are completely clueless. The effort and timing for a DK is miles beyond sorc. Clearly all you play is a sorc. Go home kid and post somewhere else, like that forum post about sharing pics of outfits. At least there you can't be wrong.

Provide examples like I did and not ad hominem attacks or your post is meaningless chatter. When you fail to do that because your argument is false and spamming wings waiting for an ultimate to pop is what we both know is all you have to do on a DK in the Sorc matchup (this is especially true with Murkmire), accept the fact that the tank class being able to spec to do more damage from range than the ranged dps caster is a major problem. It’s imbalancing and stupid.

IlCanis_LupuslI · October 2018

ezio45 wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

I have to use heavy on werewolf. Besides that, they caused the meta with all these nerfs.

Heavy has been king for as long as I remember and I have been pvp'ing a long time. Light and medium were already nearly pushed out before update 20

You also dont HAVE to use heavy on ww. If your ww is in heavy then its a tank and shouldnt be able to kill players either.

@ezio45 so I'm your opinion it's either get 1 banged by ultidumps or be useless?
I've tried medium on ww. It doesn't work period. And unless your planning on making the main heal cost stamina it will never work. Seriously unless you've played ww for at least 1 year in pvp don't tell us wolves what we should and shouldn't be able to do...
The main reason medium is garbage is that the main defense mobility and agility is useless in the "stun and ult" meta not to mention all the u dodgable abilities. If all the abilities that bypass medium armors were oblivion damage every mag player in game would be up in arms...
If you want the meta to change remove undodgable ultis and abilities...

Sun7dance · October 2018

The easiest way to make middle ‎armor competitive is to move momentum into the middle armor tree and shuffle goes to two-handed.

ak_pvp · October 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

HAs problem is that is really has no weakness. Anything that's built to deal with heavy armor more often than not is more effective vs. light & medium. The only HA hard counter that I'm aware of is Maces/Mauls which scale incredibly well with HA and poorly vs. light.

A significant buff to maces/mauls might be enough to reign in HA to an acceptable degree.

Heavy has no shields, not many rolls, and for mag no mobility, (light gets some next patch with grace) weaker damage and weaker sustain.

It is completely *** by blatantly Op bleeds which heavy armour builds have nothing but healing, a la shield breaker. On live you can shield them to prevent their crits, or dodge/escape. Can't in mag heavy.
Defiled, which chews into heavy armour passives, again, can't shield, dodge, run, heavy by itself only has just mitigation+healing. And the meta bleed blades (and other builds) can take that away instantly.

So much for no weaknesses.

The only explanation for this is that you are awful. There is not a single medium or light armor DK that is going to outlive a heavy armor DK under any circumstance, ever.

I think its you who is awful in this scenario. 2 DKs on live who are building to actually be able to kill people (so not megatank) VS a bleedblade build.
One shields, the other blocks.
The shield DK takes full pen anyway, so bleeds are just like another dot and cannot be crit against. Shields can not be defiled.
A heavy DK has only healing and blocking to deal with dmg, oh guess what. Both of them get countered. (and fear drops block)

And maybe I am awful. But skaffa isn't, and he seems to swear by light. As do the majority of DKs on EU. Since right about now, you can get light close to as survivable without giving up as much damage. Impreg alone contends with the extra resists from heavy because there are no builds that ignore or debuff crit resist. (unless they just don't crit, in which case that is damage lost)