Time To Fix Heavy Armor Meta

ezio45 · October 2018

Its time to do something about heavy armor builds with high damage, Players in 5-7 heavy shouldnt be able to take players in light or medium armor.

A great way to do this without effecting heavy armor healer? Add to battle spirit that every piece of heavy armor after 1 reduces spell and physical pen by 3k ish

At 3k reduced pen a player wearing 5 pc of heavy will be down 15k pen and thats the average amount of penetration you can get out of heavy armor build. They wont be able to kill anything, which is how TANKS SHOULD BE . Bleed and oblivion dmg might still be a problem but this should do a decent job of fixing things.

Heavy healers will be fine because pen doesnt effect heals

Wuuffyy · October 2018

I have to use heavy on werewolf. Besides that, they caused the meta with all these nerfs.

lucky_dutch · October 2018

Completely agree. The difference in damage between heavy and medium is nowhere near enough to compensate for the lack of resistance.

Not an easy fix though, they'd need to reduce baseline damage across the board and then increase the medium armor passives. Would be really hard to do without messing up pve balance too.

TequilaFire · October 2018

Why shouldn't a Player in heavy not be able to take a person in medium or light?
Makes no sense, are you saying that the type of armor you wear should decide a battle?
Then should a player in medium not be able to take a player in light armor?

ezio45 · October 2018

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

I have to use heavy on werewolf. Besides that, they caused the meta with all these nerfs.

Heavy has been king for as long as I remember and I have been pvp'ing a long time. Light and medium were already nearly pushed out before update 20

You also dont HAVE to use heavy on ww. If your ww is in heavy then its a tank and shouldnt be able to kill players either.

ezio45 · October 2018

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Completely agree. The difference in damage between heavy and medium is nowhere near enough to compensate for the lack of resistance.

Not an easy fix though, they'd need to reduce baseline damage across the board and then increase the medium armor passives. Would be really hard to do without messing up pve balance too.

I mean I gave the way to do it without effecting pve. Battle spirit would only effect pvp and noone with 0 to negative pen is killing anything

Emma_Overload · October 2018

I don't think nerfing Heavy into the ground is the right answer. I remember when Heavy sucked, and that was not a great time for build diversity

I do think that the devs need to look at the reasons why Stamina builds are able to benefit more from Heavy than Magicka builds, and they also need to adjust a handful of over-performing Heavy sets like Fury, etc.

ezio45 · October 2018

TequilaFire wrote: »

Why shouldn't a Player in heavy not be able to take a person in medium or light?
Makes no sense, are you saying that the type of armor you wear should decide a battle?
Then should a player in medium not be able to take a player in light armor?

Becuase you shouldnt be able to have 25-30k resist and 30k health and do high amounts of dps to players. As of right now there is no reason not to run heavy as a dps. A heavy armor build can be over pen'ing players, everage medium and light resist is around 15k and it is EASY to get that much penetration.

Wuuffyy · October 2018

ezio45 wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

I have to use heavy on werewolf. Besides that, they caused the meta with all these nerfs.

Heavy has been king for as long as I remember and I have been pvp'ing a long time. Light and medium were already nearly pushed out before update 20

You also dont HAVE to use heavy on ww. If your ww is in heavy then its a tank and shouldnt be able to kill players either.

Dude I do. I am permawolf so I have to, to sus mag and reduce damage enough to heal out of it. It’s odd that I have 6 chars run med on all of them but have one werewolf in heavy.

Wuuffyy · October 2018

ezio45 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Why shouldn't a Player in heavy not be able to take a person in medium or light?
Makes no sense, are you saying that the type of armor you wear should decide a battle?
Then should a player in medium not be able to take a player in light armor?

Becuase you shouldnt be able to have 25-30k resist and 30k health and do high amounts of dps to players. As of right now there is no reason not to run heavy as a dps. A heavy armor build can be over pen'ing players, everage medium and light resist is around 15k and it is EASY to get that much penetration.

Most heavy builds just outsus you. Not out damage you.

ezio45 · October 2018

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I don't think nerfing Heavy into the ground is the right answer. I remember when Heavy sucked, and that was not a great time for build diversity

I do think that the devs need to look at the reasons why Stamina builds are able to benefit more from Heavy than Magicka builds, and they also need to adjust a handful of over-performing Heavy sets like Fury, etc.

Heavy meta is worse in the end for build diversity. There is almost 0 reason on live to wear non heavy, next patch there is 0 reason to go non heavy. The benefits light and medium give are not comparable to to how much better heavy armor is to your defense when there is almost 0 damage sacrificed.

ezio45 · October 2018

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

I have to use heavy on werewolf. Besides that, they caused the meta with all these nerfs.

Heavy has been king for as long as I remember and I have been pvp'ing a long time. Light and medium were already nearly pushed out before update 20

You also dont HAVE to use heavy on ww. If your ww is in heavy then its a tank and shouldnt be able to kill players either.

Dude I do. I am permawolf so I have to, to sus mag and reduce damage enough to heal out of it. It’s odd that I have 6 chars run med on all of them but have one werewolf in heavy.

There is 0 reason a ww thats able to dps should be in heavy, they shouldnt just get to be less vulnerable because there a ww

besides ww has bleed which ignore resist anyway

kojou · October 2018

That would be totally against everything they have done in this patch so far...

All my pvp builds polishing up their heavy armor as we speak.

Light armor and Sorcs lost shield strength = more heavy armor Magicka builds

Seriously though, I really feel like this patch is just going to push more players to heavy armor since other defenses are getting nerfed.

I am certainly not going to use light armor in PvP... The miniscule mobility buff does not outweigh the defense nerf.

Wuuffyy · October 2018

ezio45 wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

I have to use heavy on werewolf. Besides that, they caused the meta with all these nerfs.

Heavy has been king for as long as I remember and I have been pvp'ing a long time. Light and medium were already nearly pushed out before update 20

You also dont HAVE to use heavy on ww. If your ww is in heavy then its a tank and shouldnt be able to kill players either.

Dude I do. I am permawolf so I have to, to sus mag and reduce damage enough to heal out of it. It’s odd that I have 6 chars run med on all of them but have one werewolf in heavy.

There is 0 reason a ww thats able to dps should be in heavy, they shouldnt just get to be less vulnerable because there a ww

besides ww has bleed which ignore resist anyway

They are complaining to get bleeds reduced

usmguy1234 · October 2018

Don't worry guys sorcs will save the day. On the sorc discord we've already theory crafted some really nasty heavy wardless setups that will blast people's hairline back 5 generations. The forums will be in an uproar and heavy will get put in its rightful place.

del9 · October 2018

Well they severly nerfed forward momentum and swift, and likely speed pots - which are some of heavy’s strongest tools. They also buffed the damage to medium and light armor. So on current PTS you already have what you asked for.

And spoiler - the game is worse off for those changes.

ezio45 · October 2018

kojou wrote: »

That would be totally against everything they have done in this patch so far...

All my pvp builds polishing up their heavy armor as we speak.

Light armor and Sorcs lost shield strength = more heavy armor Magicka builds

Seriously though, I really feel like this patch is just going to push more players to heavy armor since other defenses are getting nerfed.

I am certainly not going to use light armor in PvP... The miniscule mobility buff does not outweigh the defense nerf.

This is EXACTLY why they have too. First If light was doing damage and had good defense then they need to do something about heavy that has comparable damage to light and medium and good defense. Of course this patch is going to push more players to heavy, theres no reason not to be heavy now. Most stam swtiched to heavy a LONG time ago because they benefit well from it. Now most mag is going to because while they did better with shields on live at more risk the risk doesnt pay off anymore.

Irylia · October 2018

Just nerf the heavy dmg sets like
Fury
7th
Ravager
Veiled

Cap heavy dmg sets at 300 like rattle

Provide heavy with more utility based sets for a group instead of all these “gives ward of 2-6k value every 10-15 seconds”

LiquidPony · October 2018

ezio45 wrote: »

Its time to do something about heavy armor builds with high damage, Players in 5-7 heavy shouldnt be able to take players in light or medium armor.

A great way to do this without effecting heavy armor healer? Add to battle spirit that every piece of heavy armor after 1 reduces spell and physical pen by 3k ish

At 3k reduced pen a player wearing 5 pc of heavy will be down 15k pen and thats the average amount of penetration you can get out of heavy armor build. They wont be able to kill anything, which is how TANKS SHOULD BE . Bleed and oblivion dmg might still be a problem but this should do a decent job of fixing things.

Heavy healers will be fine because pen doesnt effect heals

I feel like it would be better to adjust Heavy Armor indirectly rather than with very heavy-handed nerfs.

I would say a nerf to Forward Momentum and a buff to Shuffle (what if Major Brutality was just moved from Forward Momentum to Shuffle, increase Shuffle's snare immunity duration, and reduce the cost a bit) and a nerf to Warrior's Fury would probably be a good start. The light armor end of it can be adjusted by tweaking the percentage-based shields up to a larger value (50% probably) and doing something to fix Bastion CP now that it's mostly useless.

TequilaFire · October 2018

ezio45 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Why shouldn't a Player in heavy not be able to take a person in medium or light?
Makes no sense, are you saying that the type of armor you wear should decide a battle?
Then should a player in medium not be able to take a player in light armor?

Becuase you shouldnt be able to have 25-30k resist and 30k health and do high amounts of dps to players. As of right now there is no reason not to run heavy as a dps. A heavy armor build can be over pen'ing players, everage medium and light resist is around 15k and it is EASY to get that much penetration.

Why, I mean who says so? Obviously not the designers of the game.
What you really mean is to improve medium armor then.
As far as I can see the only thing that is needed is more heavy sets that cater to magicka users.

ezio45 · October 2018

del9 wrote: »

Well they severly nerfed forward momentum and swift, and likely speed pots - which are some of heavy’s strongest tools. They also buffed the damage to medium and light armor. So on current PTS you already have what you asked for.

And spoiler - the game is worse off for those changes.

They dint increase lights damage the slightly increased there abysmal sustain. medium for the increased dmg buff but it doesnt compare to heavy

Koolio · October 2018

ezio45 wrote: »

Its time to do something about heavy armor builds with high damage, Players in 5-7 heavy shouldnt be able to take players in light or medium armor.

A great way to do this without effecting heavy armor healer? Add to battle spirit that every piece of heavy armor after 1 reduces spell and physical pen by 3k ish

At 3k reduced pen a player wearing 5 pc of heavy will be down 15k pen and thats the average amount of penetration you can get out of heavy armor build. They wont be able to kill anything, which is how TANKS SHOULD BE . Bleed and oblivion dmg might still be a problem but this should do a decent job of fixing things.

Heavy healers will be fine because pen doesnt effect heals

You do realize that a tank irl has a giant cannon on it right. Sometimes a few machine guns as well.

They are killing machines

lucky_dutch · October 2018

TequilaFire wrote: »

Why shouldn't a Player in heavy not be able to take a person in medium or light?
Makes no sense, are you saying that the type of armor you wear should decide a battle?
Then should a player in medium not be able to take a player in light armor?

I think you're taking the point to the extreme there. Although since you mention it, it is currently not possible for a medium armor build to beat a heavy armor spin2win build in melee range (assuming equal skill). Steel tornado being undodgable makes sure of that.

That's not to say a medium armor build can never score a kill on a heavy armor target but they require either a distraction or an out of stealth combo to make it happen. It cannot be done in a straight fight.

Heavy armor needs taking down a peg, particularly now that light armor are getting their survivability absolutely destroyed.

ezio45 · October 2018

LiquidPony wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Its time to do something about heavy armor builds with high damage, Players in 5-7 heavy shouldnt be able to take players in light or medium armor.

A great way to do this without effecting heavy armor healer? Add to battle spirit that every piece of heavy armor after 1 reduces spell and physical pen by 3k ish

At 3k reduced pen a player wearing 5 pc of heavy will be down 15k pen and thats the average amount of penetration you can get out of heavy armor build. They wont be able to kill anything, which is how TANKS SHOULD BE . Bleed and oblivion dmg might still be a problem but this should do a decent job of fixing things.

Heavy healers will be fine because pen doesnt effect heals

I feel like it would be better to adjust Heavy Armor indirectly rather than with very heavy-handed nerfs.

I would say a nerf to Forward Momentum and a buff to Shuffle and a nerf to Warrior's Fury would probably be a good start. The light armor end of it can be adjusted by tweaking the percentage-based shields up to a larger value (50% probably) and doing something to fix Bastion CP now that it's mostly useless.

If they just adjusted heavy it would effect pve and even tho it really wouldnt harm them i thing zos needs to balance these seperately

lucky_dutch · October 2018

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Don't worry guys sorcs will save the day. On the sorc discord we've already theory crafted some really nasty heavy wardless setups that will blast people's hairline back 5 generations. The forums will be in an uproar and heavy will get put in its rightful place.

This, by the way, is why Murkmire is a bad patch. Literally every mag class is currently working out how they can utilise heavy armor instead of light. Light armor is now dead.

Dashmatt · October 2018

They’ve already nerfed everything that made heavy armor too strong. The problem is that there isn’t sufficient reason to choose medium or light. But part of this is also the nature of PvP: people don’t like dying, and the easiest way to not die is wear heavy armor.

You can go after heavy armor set bonuses, but you can still wear heavy and use a light or medium jewelry set for damage.

Buff light and medium.

TequilaFire · October 2018

What you all are actually on about is the adjustment to shields, so I would be careful about nerfing heavy because you are going to need it. My Stamplar and Stamblades wear 5 Medium and only 2 heavy and take down plenty of all heavy users.

Chrlynsch · October 2018

I am a Heavy user and I don't rely much on pen. In No CP I literally have 0 pen. This would solve much at all. Next patch with shield damage getting to be critical striked means that crit become more important than before.

Being in heavy armor has no benefit to your damage. Heavy armor sets such as Truth, Ravager, 7th are the reason Heavy is powerful. Medium armor has no real sets to show that increase damage and healing like these sets do. The worst part about this is how Medium would have more to gain from using two of these sets due to Medium Armor's passive to increased weapon damage. Instead they are given sets like Bone Pirate and Hulking which do not scale well with medium.

The second disparity between heavy and medium is the fact that the best part of medium for pvp tends to be it's active ability shuffle, which is still too expensive. Heavy's strength comes from its passives and thats about it, no one except some nich builds uses immovable.

Fix Medium and Light, dont Nerf Heavy.

ezio45 · October 2018

lucky_dutch wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Don't worry guys sorcs will save the day. On the sorc discord we've already theory crafted some really nasty heavy wardless setups that will blast people's hairline back 5 generations. The forums will be in an uproar and heavy will get put in its rightful place.

This, by the way, is why Murkmire is a bad patch. Literally every mag class is currently working out how they can utilise heavy armor instead of light. Light armor is now dead.

Dashmatt wrote: »

They’ve already nerfed everything that made heavy armor too strong. The problem is that there isn’t sufficient reason to choose medium or light. But part of this is also the nature of PvP: people don’t like dying, and the easiest way to not die is wear heavy armor.

You can go after heavy armor set bonuses, but you can still wear heavy and use a light or medium jewelry set for damage.

Buff light and medium.

YA they do need to buff medium and light at least in pvp but tanks are still doing to much damage for there amount of resist and health. A light armor can literally sit there and fight a tank all day and the tank will kill them because burst isnt going to win against a take and all the tank has to do is thro pressure on the light and run them out of stam

Ocelot9x · October 2018

ezio45 wrote: »

Its time to do something about heavy armor builds with high damage, Players in 5-7 heavy shouldnt be able to take players in light or medium armor.

A great way to do this without effecting heavy armor healer? Add to battle spirit that every piece of heavy armor after 1 reduces spell and physical pen by 3k ish

At 3k reduced pen a player wearing 5 pc of heavy will be down 15k pen and thats the average amount of penetration you can get out of heavy armor build. They wont be able to kill anything, which is how TANKS SHOULD BE . Bleed and oblivion dmg might still be a problem but this should do a decent job of fixing things.

Heavy healers will be fine because pen doesnt effect heals

Hey mr Ezio can you help me building a 15k penetration stamina Templar? Really,I’m curious

CritsTheBed · October 2018

So Impreg was the one of the few reasons to run medium and thats getting nerfed(which i agree it should) so there is no reason to wear medium unless youre a ganker. Cp pvp will be half gankers and half 7th/fury/bs tanks with 7k weapon damage spin to win copy paste builds. Eso has so many sets and skills they keep trying to revive but nobody is going to run different sets or anything besides heavy armour because why put yourself at a disadvantage when the heavy armour, 2h/dw, fury/7th/bs meta is absolutely the most effective?

Killing and not being killed is fun and you cant blame the players for finding these setups on youtube that make pvp easier to survive and easier to kill other players. But if youre looking at the big picture its like camping the desert bar at a buffet and so bad for balance.

If heavy and a few offending sets were nerfed a very small percentage of the playerbase would survive and still slaughter bc they have great skill and comprehension of the game. On the other side of that If you nerfed heavy and these few sets, In an instant a very large percentage of these meta 1vxers would be reduced to average...IN AN INSTANT. Then more players would be forced to try different armour weights and sets so zos doesnt have to keep adding sloads and sloads v.2.