Time To Fix Heavy Armor Meta

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Iskiab wrote: »

Problem is simple, all armour passives are good in pvp including the heavy ones. The best benefits for light armour is the pen and a bit of regen, medium has weapon damage that’s supposed to compensate for the extra mitigation of heavy - it doesn’t .

The pen for light armour isn’t enough. This has a double effect; it makes light armour wearers too squishy and it makes heavy armour and mitigation in general too strong. Maybe bring the pen on light up to 10k, add 3k to medium (number are arbitrary and more would need to be done for real numbers). Then further reduce damage in BGs, what is it 50% now? Bring it up to 60% to get the TTK up.

Lol no thank you.

Vapirko

Qbiken wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

A bit has changed since this thread was posted. We weren’t quite into the AOE snare/damage meta yet. Heavy armor needs to be prevented from doing a competitive amount of damage. I honestly hate to say this (I play 5 medium) because I think a heavier brawler playstyle should be possible, but between snares, proc sets and damage sets, Major defile, troll king, earthgore, heavy armor users can far too easily just turtle up and still dish out crazy damage. And ZOS is introducing more really strong snare and proc setd with Wrathstone. So idk what else to say. Heavy should have a flat out damage reduction for 5 or more pieces. If you want damage you go medium or light end of story. The thing is sets like fury and ravager, 7th get a bad rap because of heavy but these sets are great medium sets too and nerfing them will NOT in any way solve the heavy armor meta issue. Making them medium is also not really a solution because we typically rely on running that heavy chest piece to survive. So the only thing that makes sense is to make heavy armor have a pretty sizable damage penalty for 5 or more pieces. If you want to play tank or support you can go heavy, otherwise no.

If you add "penalties" for wearing heavy armor, there need to be some kind of "penalty" for wearing medium or light. Now the question is, what would that be?

I personally don't think you should be punished for using a specific armor type, and I don't think we're in any heavy armor meta either tbh. High resistance meta, sure, but not a heavy armor meta.

The real issue is that while you can be survivable in medium and light, both armor types require skill to do so and you really need to use all your abilties. Additionally you typically have to lower your defenses when you go on offense. I can run deaths wind back bar with the psijic ult on my medium stamplar and have 25-27k resists, but when I switch the my front bar I’m really dropping a lot of defense to go offensive. Heavy armor allows players to keep the defense up while going offensive because they can so easily obtain damage and strong debuffs through abilties and sets that’s are verging on OP with some being absolutely OP. For example you can build a tanky heavy armor magplar with a huge BoL wearing thorvokins that can stack major and minor defile. Now they might not have a ton of burst but they do have lots of dots and a ton of healing reduction and this is sufficient to crush most players even if they might stale mate a good player. And in this kind of setup the gear and abilties are doing most of the work and they really don’t have to take any risks. Worst comes to worst the fight is a draw or more come to their aid because the fight takes so long. Put that same build in light and good luck trying to use flare with the cast time and wearing a monster set that doesn’t confribute anything to your builds defense or offensive stats which you’re going to need. This might not be a perfect example but this is the issue imo. Right now there’s no real sacrifice to running heavy armor especially in this snare meta.

Sheuib

No matter what changes are made someone is going to die and blame it on the system.

If heavy is dominant then wear heavy and everyone is even.

If you refuse to wear heavy for whatever reason then accept your decision and the negatives associated with it.

The game is play as you want but not all play styles work in every situation so deal with it.

killimandrosb16_ESO

Sheuib wrote: »

No matter what changes are made someone is going to die and blame it on the system.

If heavy is dominant then wear heavy and everyone is even.

If you refuse to wear heavy for whatever reason then accept your decision and the negatives associated with it.

The game is play as you want but not all play styles work in every situation so deal with it.

While what you say is correct, more or less, the problem with all wearing heavy armour, is the incredibly stale and boring gameplay which would be the conclution. It removes at least 2/3rd of the games versatility and all we will end up with is slugs slowly moving towards each other slapping their wet noodles at each other. Not a scenario I welcome tbf. If there was a meaning towards 3 different armour types apart from rp and pve reasons, each and every single one should have its meaningful place in the system, where maybe naturally the paper/rock/scissor system would be in place, added the possibility skilled players can master facing any armour as well. As it is now, some very skilled players successfuly run med or light, but would do even better in heavy. Thats not good for the pace of the game

Sheuib

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

No matter what changes are made someone is going to die and blame it on the system.

If heavy is dominant then wear heavy and everyone is even.

If you refuse to wear heavy for whatever reason then accept your decision and the negatives associated with it.

The game is play as you want but not all play styles work in every situation so deal with it.

While what you say is correct, more or less, the problem with all wearing heavy armour, is the incredibly stale and boring gameplay which would be the conclution. It removes at least 2/3rd of the games versatility and all we will end up with is slugs slowly moving towards each other slapping their wet noodles at each other. Not a scenario I welcome tbf. If there was a meaning towards 3 different armour types apart from rp and pve reasons, each and every single one should have its meaningful place in the system, where maybe naturally the paper/rock/scissor system would be in place, added the possibility skilled players can master facing any armour as well. As it is now, some very skilled players successfuly run med or light, but would do even better in heavy. Thats not good for the pace of the game

If you nerf impen it hurts light and medium more.

If you nerf heavy it just pushes everyone into light or medium which is what you are arguing against about heavy.

Heavy armor alone doesn't make a player good. Being able to line of sight people and pick targets does.

The pure tank builds that can actually stand in the open and not be killed cannot kill anyone. Just walk away from these people they eventually get bored and drop that build in pvp.

Armor is balanced stop asking for changes because you are having problems with a particular player.

FrankonPC

Iskiab wrote: »

Problem is simple, all armour passives are good in pvp including the heavy ones. The best benefits for light armour is the pen and a bit of regen, medium has weapon damage that’s supposed to compensate for the extra mitigation of heavy - it doesn’t .

The pen for light armour isn’t enough. This has a double effect; it makes light armour wearers too squishy and it makes heavy armour and mitigation in general too strong. Maybe bring the pen on light up to 10k, add 3k to medium (number are arbitrary and more would need to be done for real numbers). Then further reduce damage in BGs, what is it 50% now? Bring it up to 60% to get the TTK up.

I think light is in a good spot overall and it doesn't need more pen or adjustments. The biggest issue with magicka in general in my opinion is the lack of snare removal options. You're forced to be a vamp essentially which makes you even more squishy to anyone using db, which is everyone :P. If zenimax provides a viable magicka snare removal option, while giving a small heal back to healing ward, I think light will be great.

FrankonPC

The biggest issue right now is that if you choose light, you're essentially choosing damage over survivability. Light has so many nice high spell damage sets attached to it, allowing you to be bursty. If you choose heavy as a magicka class, you're choosing survival or sustain sets. There's a separation there.

If you're stam, there's no reason to go medium. The sustain is close enough with constitution for heavy and reduced cost in medium, and the best damage sets are heavy armor. There should be a similar give and take from going heavy to medium for stam, but there isn't because of these sets. The weapon damage passive on medium is nice, but it would be even nicer if there were high weapon damage medium sets that didn't need to proc on ridiculous conditions like senche or flanking. As it stands right now a lot of the medium sets are survival/kite based sets, which really makes no sense.

I know it's lazy, but if they provided medium with a set like burning spell weave, but with poison damage and the poison status effect, or moon hunter you would see more people choose medium. Maybe make a set like 7th legion medium as well.

Iskiab

FrankonPC wrote: »

I think light is in a good spot overall and it doesn't need more pen or adjustments. The biggest issue with magicka in general in my opinion is the lack of snare removal options. You're forced to be a vamp essentially which makes you even more squishy to anyone using db, which is everyone :P. If zenimax provides a viable magicka snare removal option, while giving a small heal back to healing ward, I think light will be great.

Well, thing is I pvp heal so have a different perspective than most. Most people rate sorcs as okay in pvp, I personally think they’re one of the weakest classes.

When two groups clash light armour wearers immediately go defensive, and while playing defensively their tools do no damage. Sorcs shield, magblades cloak, etc... stam classes hit vigor maybe, but they usually try winning the clash with offense.

End result is melee (stam) wins every time. The small shields or whatever a light armour person is wearing do next to nothing against 3 players. As a healer grouped with all magdps you’re left in a position where you’re healing people who aren’t even fighting back, you literally have zero chance of winning.

Maybe it’s a meta thing because of lack of group pvp experience too, and everyone’s spec’d for duels, but as a healer I can usually tell how my BG team will do by what class and weapons people are carrying, and apart from magplars and magdk, magicka is very weak right now.

FrankonPC

Iskiab wrote: »

Well, thing is I pvp heal so have a different perspective than most. Most people rate sorcs as okay in pvp, I personally think they’re one of the weakest classes.

When two groups clash light armour wearers immediately go defensive, and while playing defensively their tools do no damage. Sorcs shield, magblades cloak, etc... stam classes hit vigor maybe, but they usually try winning the clash with offense.

End result is melee (stam) wins every time. The small shields or whatever a light armour person is wearing do next to nothing against 3 players. As a healer grouped with all magdps you’re left in a position where you’re healing people who aren’t even fighting back, you literally have zero chance of winning.

Maybe it’s a meta thing because of lack of group pvp experience too, and everyone’s spec’d for duels, but as a healer I can usually tell how my BG team will do by what class and weapons people are carrying, and apart from magplars and magdk, magicka is very weak right now.

I play a little bit of everything in open world and IC, mostly solo and most of my magicka specs are light, but that's because I want the damage. If a magicka fury set or magicka 7th existed I would go to heavy in a heartbeat. That's why I think it's the specific sets more than it's light/medium/heavy disparity.

and you are right, magicka is weaker than stamina at the moment because stam has everything, whereas magicka has to sacrifice something(for me it's damage mitigation). I think if you gave magicka a way to remove snares and not be a vampire, while also addressing the sets of heavy, it would be a great step forward.

bardx86

Qbiken wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

A bit has changed since this thread was posted. We weren’t quite into the AOE snare/damage meta yet. Heavy armor needs to be prevented from doing a competitive amount of damage. I honestly hate to say this (I play 5 medium) because I think a heavier brawler playstyle should be possible, but between snares, proc sets and damage sets, Major defile, troll king, earthgore, heavy armor users can far too easily just turtle up and still dish out crazy damage. And ZOS is introducing more really strong snare and proc setd with Wrathstone. So idk what else to say. Heavy should have a flat out damage reduction for 5 or more pieces. If you want damage you go medium or light end of story. The thing is sets like fury and ravager, 7th get a bad rap because of heavy but these sets are great medium sets too and nerfing them will NOT in any way solve the heavy armor meta issue. Making them medium is also not really a solution because we typically rely on running that heavy chest piece to survive. So the only thing that makes sense is to make heavy armor have a pretty sizable damage penalty for 5 or more pieces. If you want to play tank or support you can go heavy, otherwise no.

If you add "penalties" for wearing heavy armor, there need to be some kind of "penalty" for wearing medium or light. Now the question is, what would that be?

I personally don't think you should be punished for using a specific armor type, and I don't think we're in any heavy armor meta either tbh. High resistance meta, sure, but not a heavy armor meta.

But you are penalized for wearing light armor as damage mitigation is lower however some heavy armor classes can still dish out damage.

Chilly-McFreeze

bardx86 wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

A bit has changed since this thread was posted. We weren’t quite into the AOE snare/damage meta yet. Heavy armor needs to be prevented from doing a competitive amount of damage. I honestly hate to say this (I play 5 medium) because I think a heavier brawler playstyle should be possible, but between snares, proc sets and damage sets, Major defile, troll king, earthgore, heavy armor users can far too easily just turtle up and still dish out crazy damage. And ZOS is introducing more really strong snare and proc setd with Wrathstone. So idk what else to say. Heavy should have a flat out damage reduction for 5 or more pieces. If you want damage you go medium or light end of story. The thing is sets like fury and ravager, 7th get a bad rap because of heavy but these sets are great medium sets too and nerfing them will NOT in any way solve the heavy armor meta issue. Making them medium is also not really a solution because we typically rely on running that heavy chest piece to survive. So the only thing that makes sense is to make heavy armor have a pretty sizable damage penalty for 5 or more pieces. If you want to play tank or support you can go heavy, otherwise no.

If you add "penalties" for wearing heavy armor, there need to be some kind of "penalty" for wearing medium or light. Now the question is, what would that be?

I personally don't think you should be punished for using a specific armor type, and I don't think we're in any heavy armor meta either tbh. High resistance meta, sure, but not a heavy armor meta.

But you are penalized for wearing light armor as damage mitigation is lower however some heavy armor classes can still dish out damage.

By that logic you're already penalized for wearing heavy armor as spell penetration is lower.

Qbiken

bardx86 wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

A bit has changed since this thread was posted. We weren’t quite into the AOE snare/damage meta yet. Heavy armor needs to be prevented from doing a competitive amount of damage. I honestly hate to say this (I play 5 medium) because I think a heavier brawler playstyle should be possible, but between snares, proc sets and damage sets, Major defile, troll king, earthgore, heavy armor users can far too easily just turtle up and still dish out crazy damage. And ZOS is introducing more really strong snare and proc setd with Wrathstone. So idk what else to say. Heavy should have a flat out damage reduction for 5 or more pieces. If you want damage you go medium or light end of story. The thing is sets like fury and ravager, 7th get a bad rap because of heavy but these sets are great medium sets too and nerfing them will NOT in any way solve the heavy armor meta issue. Making them medium is also not really a solution because we typically rely on running that heavy chest piece to survive. So the only thing that makes sense is to make heavy armor have a pretty sizable damage penalty for 5 or more pieces. If you want to play tank or support you can go heavy, otherwise no.

If you add "penalties" for wearing heavy armor, there need to be some kind of "penalty" for wearing medium or light. Now the question is, what would that be?

I personally don't think you should be punished for using a specific armor type, and I don't think we're in any heavy armor meta either tbh. High resistance meta, sure, but not a heavy armor meta.

But you are penalized for wearing light armor as damage mitigation is lower however some heavy armor classes can still dish out damage.

I can have the same damage mitigation in light as in heavy and still dish out good amount of damage with little to no trade-offs, but for some reason people are completely fine with that, but when it´s the other way around the sky is falling.

There´s a big difference in having a "trade-off" and having an active penalty for wearing a specific type of armor. What you´re talking about is a trade-off.