Maintenance for the week of September 8:
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• PC/Mac: No maintenance – September 8
• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
ARE U HAPPY NOW ZOS IS DOING SOMETHING***Interview With Miat*** Lets Talk Add Ons, Cheating and Q/A
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Publius_Scipio✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭JonnytheKing wrote: »So are poeple happy about zos making changers to this , im glad that we got something done. i want to thank the poeple that your smart about this and could see that it wasnt a cheat , but sadly must poeple are dumb and blind and think it ok to get angry at me for trying to help the community witch by the way i did . But at the end of the day im happy that zos replied its a GOOD start
Finally someone realizes I am intelligent. Thank you.1 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭InvitationNotFound wrote: »alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »i have been thinking about this add on alot, and to be honest its not on, someone like me can add a bit of scrip and get the add on to move me out of the way, when it detects an attack coming, this is purely cheating, let me explain, its like having macro's it gives you an unfair advantage over the person you are playing against and to make matters worse, the peeps using it want say they are even in dueling. So why not lets us take it a step further and make an add on that procs several skills at once and move you, why not even have it proc all skills at once ;p and do it automatic then you can say look iam the best, even though its the pc playing the game
You don't seem to understand what an addon is capable of doing and what restrictions are in place.
That's my problem with this whole discussion - and the poll that DDuke keeps linking.. There seem to be a lot of people who haven't tried the addon, yet are throwing in their opinions about it without the slightest idea what it does and doesn't do.
I'm getting a very strong impression that many of the people saying it IS cheating (not all - because it really isn't clear) are not speaking from an informed perspective, yet those who believe it isn't cheating are probably mostly using it - and so ARE speaking from an informed opinion.
Edited by Biro123 on October 23, 2017 1:48PMMinalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.3 -
MercyKilling✭✭✭✭✭MercyKilling wrote: »BAN ALL THE ADD ONS!!!!eleventyone!!1!1!!
Edit: To date, I have zero add ons installed. Not once has their lack adversely affected my gameplay.
It has adversely affected your gameplay because you are missing out on features that greatly improve the experience of the game.
No, it has not. And these "features" you speak of are actually available in the game if you know how to look for them and pay attention to visual and audio cues.I am not spending a single penny on the game until changes are made to the game that I want to see.
1) Remove having to be in a guild to sell items to other players at a kiosk.
2) Cosmetic modding for armor and clothing.
3) Difficulty slider.
4) Fully customizable player housing that isn't tied to anything in the game other than having the correct resources and enough gold to build. Don't tie it to PvP, guild membership, or anything at all. Oh, make it instanced so as not to take up world map space, too. Zeni screwed this one up already.
Any /one/ of these things implemented would get me spending again, maybe even subbing.1 -
InvitationNotFound✭✭✭✭✭
✭InvitationNotFound wrote: »alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »i have been thinking about this add on alot, and to be honest its not on, someone like me can add a bit of scrip and get the add on to move me out of the way, when it detects an attack coming, this is purely cheating, let me explain, its like having macro's it gives you an unfair advantage over the person you are playing against and to make matters worse, the peeps using it want say they are even in dueling. So why not lets us take it a step further and make an add on that procs several skills at once and move you, why not even have it proc all skills at once ;p and do it automatic then you can say look iam the best, even though its the pc playing the game
You don't seem to understand what an addon is capable of doing and what restrictions are in place.
That's my problem with this whole discussion - and the poll that DDuke keeps linking.. There seem to be a lot of people who haven't tried it, yet are throwing in their opinions about it without the slightest idea what it does and doesn't do.
I'm getting a very strong impression that many of the people saying it IS cheating (not all - because it really isn't clear) are not speaking from an informed perspective, yet those who believe it isn't cheating are probably mostly using it - and so ARE speaking from an informed opinion.
I actually do not care much about who is using it and who isn't. Along all those threads and pages of comments you've seen so many misconceptions that a real discussion is hard to achieve. Calling people with another opinion cheaters won't help here in any way, it simply wastes the time of people.
I've tried to explain several times:
- the differences between different types of bugs and why in this case it doesn't apply.
- definitions of a variety of things which are required to have a real discussion
- explained how the API in general is working, what is allowed
- how other cheats work and why you can't make certain comparisons
- what an addon is and how ZOS interpretation is (go ahead and read the ToS)
And again, this is not defending how the API currently is. It might even be good to change it. Again, I simply don't care.
Yet, the same people keep on coming up with the term cheat / cheater instead of really discussing the issue here (API). At least DDuke once tried...
All I see here is that Dorrino gets all the blame and it feels like a witch hunt to a certain degree. Honestly, you can't blame him. Blame ZOS and how slow they are in responding or adjusting to "what you want" (and again, we haven't seen with what they feel comfortable...).
There would have been the chance to talk about the bigger picture here and maybe some real issues or concerns. Yet, it came down to "I like it so it isn't a cheat" vs "i dislike it so it's a cheat". And of course you might argue that I didn't came up with a lot of arguments here. That's right. I've written so many posts about what I've mentioned above that I'm simply getting sick and tired of repeating myself over and over again to just read one or two posts later someone coming up with that cheater nonsense again, who didn't even invest a few minutes in reading other posts or even tried to argue.
edit:typosEdited by InvitationNotFound on October 23, 2017 2:04PMWe want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome... - The Wrobler
You know you don't have to be here right? - Rich Lambert
Verrätst du mir deinen Beruf? Ich würde auch gerne mal Annahmen dazu schreiben, wie simple die Aufgaben anderer sind. - Kai Schober
Addons:
RdK Group Tool: esoui DE EN FR
Port to Friend's House: esoui DE EN FR - Library: DE EN
Yet another Compass: esoui DE EN FR
Group Buffs: esoui DE EN FR4 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭InvitationNotFound wrote: »I think this thread, and threads like this are only going to encourage addon makers to keep their addons more private, instead of releasing to the public.
There is no way to make something exploitative/abusive public without causing a public outroar about it.
Addon developers should work towards the overall well-being of the game, not seek to "balance" the game in place of the developers.InvitationNotFound wrote: »this whole thread (and all others) are only scratching the surface and aren't discussing potential issues in any regard.
Yet Dorrino is being blamed while actually doing the community a favor (in both ways, spreading awareness and providing an awesome addon).
Yeah, such an "awesome" addon. I think it has been explained about a billion times why this addon isn't "awesome" (or atleast the combat notifications part).
The reason Dorrino & people like you are being blamed is because you're actually defending something that's killing the game for many people.
Raising awareness is one thing, defending is another.InvitationNotFound wrote: »And people seem to be fine with it.
Anyway, the addon is great, not a cheat. Yet, the API change might be good.
"It's not a cheat because I like it"
That's not really how the world works.
If abusing other bugs/flaws in game code/engine are considered exploiting/cheating, so is this. No double standards.
Here we go again I guess
From a technical standpoint it isn't. I've linked the ToS before in other threads and explained to you already why it isn't. I already told you that I don't really care about that feature of the addon, I even gave you hints to directly contact the right person at ZOS and how to do so.
What does ToS have to do with anything?
Here's from the very same ToS:8. RULES OF CONDUCT
...
You agree not to use any Service to:
Promote, upload, transmit, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking, cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of counterfeit software and/or Virtual Currency or virtual items. In an effort to continuously improve the Services, You and other players discovering exploits, cheats, cracks or other inconsistencies are required to report them to ZeniMax;
Whether they actually enforce these rules or not is a whole another matter. Judging by Sharpened Maces, Double Mundus, teleporting into enemy keeps & countless other exploits, you can draw the conclusion that they don't.InvitationNotFound wrote: »What you probably didn't get here is that your argument of "It's not a cheat because I like it" is the same as "It's a cheat because I don't like it". You know, that's not really how the world works. It has nothing to do with a discussion at all. All you do is saying that what you believe or would like to see is how it is. Try to counter arguments. You are very well aware of my arguments and points I've made in previous threads. Yet, your arguments are weak, if there are any at all (can't really find anything in your previous post). And again, don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying anyone has to like the current API and how it works. I'm not saying i do. But yet, it simply isn't cheating. It does what it is exactly supposed to do. It isn't a bug and never was. The function exactly did what it was designed for. Of course, they are going to review if their design was appropriate, but I personally wouldn't expect too much change there. But in the current state, their statement is that they are not comfortable with some things (what ever that means). It is like the Wrobler isn't comfortable with dark exchange and wants to make a few changes in an update so it really feels awesome for the players. To your logic, who ever used dark exchange before cheats because they reworked it. Your logic is flawed. You simply can't compare the API with the mundus stone exploit or something like that. It simply doesn't work by the definition of the different things and aspects we have here.
Please provide proof of the highlighted. Here's mine:Originally Posted by dorrino View Post
While you're here i have a question.
This change obviously severely limits the features of my addon. Can i (we) get an official stance on which parts of the addon are not desirable within ZOS design direction?
Even after the change i have some ideas how to still get the info i need for the addon to work. This will be noticeably more cumbersome and unreliable (probably) though.
In any case my intention is NOT to start an arms race with you guys. And i don't really want to spend hours of developing an intricate system to circumvent this change only to realize you will counter it with some other change
So, please, tell me which features are fine to have within your vision and which features will get an active countermeasures from you?
Thank you,
PS. Chip, in 5-10 min i'll PM you an exploit, that i found, that is very much possible with the current API. It technically allows to automate almost any players actions and CONDITIONALLY call protected and PRIVATE functions even when in combat. CheersZOS_ChipHilseberg
I believe that it was anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.
As well as the statement by Gina stating they're not comfortable with some aspects in the API.
All makes it sound like the API was never intended to allow people to see what unseen/invisible opponents are doing.
Hell, common sense would tell you that (if you had any).
Someone brought up WoW having a similar addon back in the days which would alert when a rogue casted Cold Blood (guaranteed crit on next attack) while stealthed.
That is nowhere near as impactful as this addon has been for ESO, yet Blizzard hotfixed that asap because obviously such things aren't intended.InvitationNotFound wrote: »The other thing you do is criticize my opinion of this addon. I'm specifically talking about the addon and not the issue you're having with the API. Did you check what the addon is capable of respectively what features it is adding? Did you know that you can disable the feature you don't like and enjoy everything else of the addon? Yet, it isn't awesome because some people do not like one of its features?
Again you fail to even understand the effect this "addon" (specifically the combat notifications feature) has on the gameplay of others. Disabling the feature not only puts you at a disadvantage (why would you disable it?), but also does nothing to fix the game balance issues it causes for builds with cast time abilities.InvitationNotFound wrote: »And again, you aren't arguing. Who explained it about a billion times? The same 10 players here on the forums? While the addon has 50k downloads (5k / month) (and yes, i know those numbers don't work^^). Anyway, providing such numbers and saying "see, people download it and therefore think it is awesome" is the same as you do, wasting each others time.
10 players? More like 100 players.
People download this addon because it provides an in game combat advantage and makes you win (everyone likes winning). Why wouldn't someone download it? Even I use it.
What matters is what people think about it:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/369568/should-miats-attack-alert-be-allowed/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/376277/is-miats-add-on-cheating-to-you/p1
Alternatively you can go in game & ask random people about it - you'll get the same results.InvitationNotFound wrote: »edit: just saw that you've highlighted the word defending.
No, actually I don't consider this defending. As mentioned several times, I don't care at all what is happening with that part of the API. I simply don't.
Sure you don't care. Is that why you keep posting & defending it?
"It's not cheating"
"lots of people download it and think it's awesome"
Any kind of mental gymnastics you & a few others are trying to justify this addon's existence is defending it.InvitationNotFound wrote: »What I do is looking at the arguments that people are coming up with. And most of them are complete nonsense. Calling people cheater while they aren't. I've told many times, that this is the main issue I'm having with this whole discussion. People in here are getting emotional and are ignoring facts. Claiming people cheat, because you simply don't like something doesn't make anything of this here right. It isn't cheating. If you don't like the API and want to complain, yes, feel free and go ahead. Do this in a constructive manner. Claiming it is cheating simply isn't.
In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1] Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_exploits
Yes, it is. And no amount of defending & obfuscating is going to make it otherwise for people who think so.Edited by DDuke on October 23, 2017 2:14PM2 -
killimandrosb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I understand what you are trying to say and obviously from an objective point of view as long as the developers havent deemed the addon as illegal it is not illegal. Period. I have tried the addon and clearly it has a lot of helpful statistics. The ones I can not agree with being allowed Ive explained so many times it feels like at least a short novel has been written. And I believe most people arent in the cheat or not cheat group, but more in the certain type of attacks should be alloved versus the certain type of attacks should NOT be allowed group. If we look upon it from THAT perspective it becomes a discussion about the developers intention with the game. Did they intend certain attacks to be futile? Was it their plan when making some skills that these would be of no use? or for PvE purpose only? If so, then Miats doesnt interfere at all with the meta and mechanics of the game, as it is in line with the developers intentions. If the developers did NOT intend for certain attacks (I love to use Snipe as an example, as Miats himself uses it in several examples as to WHY he created this addon) to be of no used within a PvP setting, but made the game in a way all skills would have their place within Cyrodiil, then it is fair to state Miats DOES in fact change the meta and the game mechanics away from the developers intentions when creating and balancing classes.
Now this is where I personally have a problem, because I dont TRUST Miat to be the person to dictate mechanics inside a competitive wvw/pvp setting. I PREFER developers of this game to do so and if they are too imcompetent to manage it, competitive players have no place in single individual made pvp settings. And again, no other competitive pvp/wvw game would ever allow an addon interfering with the mechanics and meta of classes being added by players knowingly without taking actions and make said addon illegal. Examples are many (maybe not in ESO).
Then when it comes to Miats himself, or DOrrino, the reason he gets so much hate, is because in a sincereness, he is not very diplomatic. Over and over again he treats those not agreeing with why he should be allowed to dictate the meta and mechanics as delusional, idiots or even worse. Every argument trying to put him into the position he objectively HAS (one player among thousands of other players, nothing more, nothing less, and certainly NOT and NEVER in charge or dictating how pvp will be played within the game) will be mocked as player x doesnt understand the mechanics, player y is ignorant, player z must L2P, its clearly a L2P issue etc...Basically he is the prime example, probably the best ever, of an elitist j... actually. And he is proud of how he has made it possible to change the meta and mechanics, and all those not praising him are ignorant or must L2P or whatever...see? Thats why people dont like Miat or Dorrino (and all other aliases he must have within the game forums...I suspect many of the pro responses is himself circle responding and backing himself)Edited by killimandrosb16_ESO on October 23, 2017 2:24PM6 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭kyle.wilson wrote: »How did this turn into a discussion about polling methodology?
I had no idea there could be a less interesting topic to discuss than coding...
apparently polling just so happens to be that less interesting topic...
2 things I know not to study. xD1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭InvitationNotFound wrote: »alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »i have been thinking about this add on alot, and to be honest its not on, someone like me can add a bit of scrip and get the add on to move me out of the way, when it detects an attack coming, this is purely cheating, let me explain, its like having macro's it gives you an unfair advantage over the person you are playing against and to make matters worse, the peeps using it want say they are even in dueling. So why not lets us take it a step further and make an add on that procs several skills at once and move you, why not even have it proc all skills at once ;p and do it automatic then you can say look iam the best, even though its the pc playing the game
You don't seem to understand what an addon is capable of doing and what restrictions are in place.
That's my problem with this whole discussion - and the poll that DDuke keeps linking.. There seem to be a lot of people who haven't tried the addon, yet are throwing in their opinions about it without the slightest idea what it does and doesn't do.
And what's your basis for such assumption?I'm getting a very strong impression that many of the people saying it IS cheating (not all - because it really isn't clear) are not speaking from an informed perspective, yet those who believe it isn't cheating are probably mostly using it - and so ARE speaking from an informed opinion.
I've done my best to inform people by recording multiple videos showing what the addon does & explaining how it's ruining the game in about a thousand different ways.
But you're right, people should try it out - that'd just reinforce the negative opinions about it just like it reinforced mine when I started using it.
I use it (just see my latest PvP video for proof) and it is 100% exploiting/cheating, just like Sharpened Maces, Double Mundus & teleporting into enemy keeps were. Informed enough opinion for you?0 -
WeAreWatchingYouSoul ShrivenThe choice is simple, use it or not but stop crying about everythingEdited by WeAreWatchingYou on October 23, 2017 2:26PM3 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
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As long as only select few people will use "other culprits" and not almost everyone you see in cyro i will be happy.
they wont be able to, because ZoS said they are looking into changing the api again to not allow that information to be used in an add on, so the secret add ons that show cast times on players not targeted, or that are in stealth, wont work anymore.2 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
It wasn’t my idea. There have been posts before that having any information about your opponent is cheating somehow.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
InvitationNotFound✭✭✭✭✭
✭InvitationNotFound wrote: »I think this thread, and threads like this are only going to encourage addon makers to keep their addons more private, instead of releasing to the public.
There is no way to make something exploitative/abusive public without causing a public outroar about it.
Addon developers should work towards the overall well-being of the game, not seek to "balance" the game in place of the developers.InvitationNotFound wrote: »this whole thread (and all others) are only scratching the surface and aren't discussing potential issues in any regard.
Yet Dorrino is being blamed while actually doing the community a favor (in both ways, spreading awareness and providing an awesome addon).
Yeah, such an "awesome" addon. I think it has been explained about a billion times why this addon isn't "awesome" (or atleast the combat notifications part).
The reason Dorrino & people like you are being blamed is because you're actually defending something that's killing the game for many people.
Raising awareness is one thing, defending is another.InvitationNotFound wrote: »And people seem to be fine with it. Anyway, the addon is great, not a cheat. Yet, the API change might be good.
"It's not a cheat because I like it"
That's not really how the world works.
If abusing other bugs/flaws in game code/engine are considered exploiting/cheating, so is this. No double standards.
Here we go again I guess
From a technical standpoint it isn't. I've linked the ToS before in other threads and explained to you already why it isn't. I already told you that I don't really care about that feature of the addon, I even gave you hints to directly contact the right person at ZOS and how to do so.
What does ToS have to do with anything?
Here's from the very same ToS:8. RULES OF CONDUCT
...
You agree not to use any Service to:
Promote, upload, transmit, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking, cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of counterfeit software and/or Virtual Currency or virtual items. In an effort to continuously improve the Services, You and other players discovering exploits, cheats, cracks or other inconsistencies are required to report them to ZeniMax;
Whether they actually enforce these rules or not is a whole another matter. Judging by Sharpened Maces, Double Mundus, teleporting into enemy keeps & countless other exploits, you can draw the conclusion that they don't.InvitationNotFound wrote: »What you probably didn't get here is that your argument of "It's not a cheat because I like it" is the same as "It's a cheat because I don't like it". You know, that's not really how the world works. It has nothing to do with a discussion at all. All you do is saying that what you believe or would like to see is how it is. Try to counter arguments. You are very well aware of my arguments and points I've made in previous threads. Yet, your arguments are weak, if there are any at all (can't really find anything in your previous post). And again, don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying anyone has to like the current API and how it works. I'm not saying i do. But yet, it simply isn't cheating. It does what it is exactly supposed to do. It isn't a bug and never was. The function exactly did what it was designed for. Of course, they are going to review if their design was appropriate, but I personally wouldn't expect too much change there. But in the current state, their statement is that they are not comfortable with some things (what ever that means). It is like the Wrobler isn't comfortable with dark exchange and wants to make a few changes in an update so it really feels awesome for the players. To your logic, who ever used dark exchange before cheats because they reworked it. Your logic is flawed. You simply can't compare the API with the mundus stone exploit or something like that. It simply doesn't work by the definition of the different things and aspects we have here.
Please provide proof of the highlighted. Here's mine:Originally Posted by dorrino View Post
While you're here i have a question.
This change obviously severely limits the features of my addon. Can i (we) get an official stance on which parts of the addon are not desirable within ZOS design direction?
Even after the change i have some ideas how to still get the info i need for the addon to work. This will be noticeably more cumbersome and unreliable (probably) though.
In any case my intention is NOT to start an arms race with you guys. And i don't really want to spend hours of developing an intricate system to circumvent this change only to realize you will counter it with some other change
So, please, tell me which features are fine to have within your vision and which features will get an active countermeasures from you?
Thank you,
PS. Chip, in 5-10 min i'll PM you an exploit, that i found, that is very much possible with the current API. It technically allows to automate almost any players actions and CONDITIONALLY call protected and PRIVATE functions even when in combat. CheersZOS_ChipHilseberg
I believe that it was anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.
As well as the statement by Gina stating they're not comfortable with some aspects in the API.
All makes it sound like the API was never intended to allow people to see what unseen/invisible opponents are doing.
Hell, common sense would tell you that (if you had any).
Someone brought up WoW having a similar addon back in the days which would alert when a rogue casted Cold Blood (guaranteed crit on next attack) while stealthed.
That is nowhere near as impactful as this addon has been for ESO, yet Blizzard hotfixed that asap because obviously such things aren't intended.InvitationNotFound wrote: »The other thing you do is criticize my opinion of this addon. I'm specifically talking about the addon and not the issue you're having with the API. Did you check what the addon is capable of respectively what features it is adding? Did you know that you can disable the feature you don't like and enjoy everything else of the addon? Yet, it isn't awesome because some people do not like one of its features?
Again you fail to even understand the effect this "addon" (specifically the combat notifications feature) has on the gameplay of others. Disabling the feature not only puts you at a disadvantage (why would you disable it?), but also does nothing to fix the game balance issues it causes for builds with cast time abilities.InvitationNotFound wrote: »And again, you aren't arguing. Who explained it about a billion times? The same 10 players here on the forums? While the addon has 50k downloads (5k / month) (and yes, i know those numbers don't work^^). Anyway, providing such numbers and saying "see, people download it and therefore think it is awesome" is the same as you do, wasting each others time.
10 players? More like 100 players.
People download this addon because it provides an in game combat advantage and makes you win (everyone likes winning). Why wouldn't someone download it? Even I use it.
What matters is what people think about it:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/369568/should-miats-attack-alert-be-allowed/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/376277/is-miats-add-on-cheating-to-you/p1
Alternatively you can go in game & ask random people about it - you'll get the same results.InvitationNotFound wrote: »edit: just saw that you've highlighted the word defending.
No, actually I don't consider this defending. As mentioned several times, I don't care at all what is happening with that part of the API. I simply don't.
Sure you don't care. Is that why you keep posting & defending it?
"It's not cheating"
"lots of people download it and think it's awesome"
Any kind of mental gymnastics you & a few others are trying to justify this addon's existence is defending it.InvitationNotFound wrote: »What I do is looking at the arguments that people are coming up with. And most of them are complete nonsense. Calling people cheater while they aren't. I've told many times, that this is the main issue I'm having with this whole discussion. People in here are getting emotional and are ignoring facts. Claiming people cheat, because you simply don't like something doesn't make anything of this here right. It isn't cheating. If you don't like the API and want to complain, yes, feel free and go ahead. Do this in a constructive manner. Claiming it is cheating simply isn't.
In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1] Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_exploits
Yes, it is. And no amount of defending & obfuscating is going to make it otherwise for people who think so.
lol, sorry I had a little laugh here. Did you even read what i wrote? You didn't seem to understand quite a few things. And I'm not sure if you are trolling or simply trying to bore me to death.
Let's start...ZeniMax may, in its discretion, make available to You one or more application programming interfaces and associated documentation (each an "API") to allow You to create, download, enable, use, or associate Content (excluding Game Mods), that modifies or otherwise provides enhanced features to the user interface ("Add-ons") for a Game. The API and Add-ons are Software for purposes of these Terms of Service and are subject to these Terms of Service and the Supplemental Terms applicable to the API and the Add-Ons. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in these Terms of Service, if the Supplemental Terms for an API or Add-on directly conflict with specific terms and conditions in these Terms of Service or any other Supplemental Terms, the Supplemental Terms for an API or Add-on will control, but solely for purpose of the specific API and Add-on and not for any other purpose.
Here's that part of the tos. the addon completely fits this criteria. It is what addons are meant for.
You repeat yourself and claim that a bug (implementation flaw) is the same as the design of a function (no, not a design flaw, simply how it is designed). And that's where you have your difference. Abusing a bug = exploiting = cheating. There is no abusing a legit feature = whatever.
Regarding your esoui quote:
Chip believes, it isn't said that that's the case. An indication. But as far as I know this wasn't considered the real issue, it was more about knowing there are like 20 enemies in stealth somewhere nearby and that kind of things. that's not working anymore. btw. in your quote you've missed something that was way more interesting, but i guess that's what i've meant with all this cheater nonsense is derailing the discussion.
WoW was way worse than whatever you saw here. I think I've posted some wow bot videos to explain the difference.
You failed to get my point about the numbers of people. It is completely irrelevant. First, it isn't representative with so few votes / downloads. That was what I was trying to explain to you. It's nonsense. I even said those download numbers are nonsense (in the same way your numbers are). Go ask some people if the earth is flat or not, if you're unlucky...
Why would I try defend this addon and at the same time would give information on how you could proceed to get this straightened? What kind of sense would this make? right, none. but i guess i'm the one here doing some weird kind of mental gymnastics.
Btw. congratulations for quoting what cheating is. Can't remember having done that in previous threads *sighs*.
The issue here is exactly that "in a manner not intended by the game's designers." isn't the case. It is intended by the game's designers. the function does what it should. zos will reconsider it as enough people complained. yet you can compare it exactly with a normal about where things are getting nerfed / buffed. It isn't about a fix. They never stated that it IS not what they've intended or that there is any sort of bug. You assume it is. Just wait for the patch notes and look at the wording they'll use. e.g. "fixed a bug", "changed / adjusted the API", "whatever". I highly doubt they will in any word talk about a fix as it simply will be change in the design (an no, not a fix in the design - there's nothing to fix).We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome... - The Wrobler
You know you don't have to be here right? - Rich Lambert
Verrätst du mir deinen Beruf? Ich würde auch gerne mal Annahmen dazu schreiben, wie simple die Aufgaben anderer sind. - Kai Schober
Addons:
RdK Group Tool: esoui DE EN FR
Port to Friend's House: esoui DE EN FR - Library: DE EN
Yet another Compass: esoui DE EN FR
Group Buffs: esoui DE EN FR2 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭InvitationNotFound wrote: »alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »i have been thinking about this add on alot, and to be honest its not on, someone like me can add a bit of scrip and get the add on to move me out of the way, when it detects an attack coming, this is purely cheating, let me explain, its like having macro's it gives you an unfair advantage over the person you are playing against and to make matters worse, the peeps using it want say they are even in dueling. So why not lets us take it a step further and make an add on that procs several skills at once and move you, why not even have it proc all skills at once ;p and do it automatic then you can say look iam the best, even though its the pc playing the game
You don't seem to understand what an addon is capable of doing and what restrictions are in place.
That's my problem with this whole discussion - and the poll that DDuke keeps linking.. There seem to be a lot of people who haven't tried the addon, yet are throwing in their opinions about it without the slightest idea what it does and doesn't do.
And what's your basis for such assumption?I'm getting a very strong impression that many of the people saying it IS cheating (not all - because it really isn't clear) are not speaking from an informed perspective, yet those who believe it isn't cheating are probably mostly using it - and so ARE speaking from an informed opinion.
I've done my best to inform people by recording multiple videos showing what the addon does & explaining how it's ruining the game in about a thousand different ways.
But you're right, people should try it out - that'd just reinforce the negative opinions about it just like it reinforced mine when I started using it.
I use it (just see my latest PvP video for proof) and it is 100% exploiting/cheating, just like Sharpened Maces, Double Mundus & teleporting into enemy keeps were. Informed enough opinion for you?
The basis would be the post that I'd quoted (or more accurately, the one that Invitaion quoted) - and many, many other similar posts on the subject that I've seen over the past few weeks.
I know you've posted plenty of info as to what it does - which is commendable - just as I've made plenty of posts to ty to clarify it too, and also clarify the difference between addons, macro's and hacks like cheatengine.. but this is the internets - You know as well as I do that there are an awful lot of people just come to a thread after reading the header and the last post and throw in their opinion without actually reading any of the discussion to actually inform them on the subject they are talking about.
Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭InvitationNotFound wrote: »lol, sorry I had a little laugh here. Did you even read what i wrote? You didn't seem to understand quite a few things. And I'm not sure if you are trolling or simply trying to bore me to death.
Let's start...ZeniMax may, in its discretion, make available to You one or more application programming interfaces and associated documentation (each an "API") to allow You to create, download, enable, use, or associate Content (excluding Game Mods), that modifies or otherwise provides enhanced features to the user interface ("Add-ons") for a Game. The API and Add-ons are Software for purposes of these Terms of Service and are subject to these Terms of Service and the Supplemental Terms applicable to the API and the Add-Ons. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in these Terms of Service, if the Supplemental Terms for an API or Add-on directly conflict with specific terms and conditions in these Terms of Service or any other Supplemental Terms, the Supplemental Terms for an API or Add-on will control, but solely for purpose of the specific API and Add-on and not for any other purpose.
Here's that part of the tos. the addon completely fits this criteria. It is what addons are meant for.
You really should've highlighted the latter portion of your ToS quote.
Again:8. RULES OF CONDUCT
...
You agree not to use any Service to:
Promote, upload, transmit, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking, cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of counterfeit software and/or Virtual Currency or virtual items. In an effort to continuously improve the Services, You and other players discovering exploits, cheats, cracks or other inconsistencies are required to report them to ZeniMax;InvitationNotFound wrote: »You repeat yourself and claim that a bug (implementation flaw) is the same as the design of a function (no, not a design flaw, simply how it is designed). And that's where you have your difference. Abusing a bug = exploiting = cheating. There is no abusing a legit feature = whatever.
Yet it is a bug/flaw as far as we're aware based on the past commentary of ZOS and common bloody sense.
This bug/flaw in the API code is about as legit as the bug/flaw in game code for Twice Born Star & Sharpened Maces back in the day - something you're clearly incapable of understanding (or maybe just can't admit you're wrong).InvitationNotFound wrote: »Regarding your esoui quote:
Chip believes, it isn't said that that's the case. An indication. But as far as I know this wasn't considered the real issue, it was more about knowing there are like 20 enemies in stealth somewhere nearby and that kind of things. that's not working anymore. btw. in your quote you've missed something that was way more interesting, but i guess that's what i've meant with all this cheater nonsense is derailing the discussion.
What Chip stated is fairly easy to understand.anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.
Are you telling me that's not what the addon does? It doesn't allow me to detect the actions of a hostile player without having to see them?
Get out of here.InvitationNotFound wrote: »WoW was way worse than whatever you saw here. I think I've posted some wow bot videos to explain the difference.
What have bots to do with anything?
The point was that there was an addon that made people detect things they shouldn't (casts while stealthed, e.g. rogue Cold Blood ability) and it got hotfixed asap.InvitationNotFound wrote: »You failed to get my point about the numbers of people. It is completely irrelevant. First, it isn't representative with so few votes / downloads. That was what I was trying to explain to you. It's nonsense. I even said those download numbers are nonsense (in the same way your numbers are). Go ask some people if the earth is flat or not, if you're unlucky...
Yet another who doesn't understand how polling & margin of error works.
First poll: 343 votes=5% margin of error (95% confidence level) - 7% margin of error (99% confidence level)
Second poll: 226 votes=7% margin of error (95% confidence level) - 9% margin of error (99% confidence level)
Go ask 343 random people if earth is flat, you'll get proper results within that margin of error range with 95% probability.
Only thing that can affect opt in polls like these is outside manipulation/brigading, which doesn't really happen in an environment like ESO general forums, and you'd need some absolutely massive outside interference to derail the results from the margin of error range.
But hey, would be awesome if someone conducted a survey poll by asking random people in game. I can say the results would be the same.InvitationNotFound wrote: »Why would I try defend this addon and at the same time would give information on how you could proceed to get this straightened? What kind of sense would this make? right, none. but i guess i'm the one here doing some weird kind of mental gymnastics.
What information have you given that would "get this straightened"?
All you've done is act as an apologist for this toxic creation while others have posted videos & explained why it's mere existence is the worst kind of travesty.Edited by DDuke on October 23, 2017 3:04PM1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭InvitationNotFound wrote: »alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »i have been thinking about this add on alot, and to be honest its not on, someone like me can add a bit of scrip and get the add on to move me out of the way, when it detects an attack coming, this is purely cheating, let me explain, its like having macro's it gives you an unfair advantage over the person you are playing against and to make matters worse, the peeps using it want say they are even in dueling. So why not lets us take it a step further and make an add on that procs several skills at once and move you, why not even have it proc all skills at once ;p and do it automatic then you can say look iam the best, even though its the pc playing the game
You don't seem to understand what an addon is capable of doing and what restrictions are in place.
That's my problem with this whole discussion - and the poll that DDuke keeps linking.. There seem to be a lot of people who haven't tried the addon, yet are throwing in their opinions about it without the slightest idea what it does and doesn't do.
And what's your basis for such assumption?I'm getting a very strong impression that many of the people saying it IS cheating (not all - because it really isn't clear) are not speaking from an informed perspective, yet those who believe it isn't cheating are probably mostly using it - and so ARE speaking from an informed opinion.
I've done my best to inform people by recording multiple videos showing what the addon does & explaining how it's ruining the game in about a thousand different ways.
But you're right, people should try it out - that'd just reinforce the negative opinions about it just like it reinforced mine when I started using it.
I use it (just see my latest PvP video for proof) and it is 100% exploiting/cheating, just like Sharpened Maces, Double Mundus & teleporting into enemy keeps were. Informed enough opinion for you?
The basis would be the post that I'd quoted (or more accurately, the one that Invitaion quoted) - and many, many other similar posts on the subject that I've seen over the past few weeks.
I know you've posted plenty of info as to what it does - which is commendable - just as I've made plenty of posts to ty to clarify it too, and also clarify the difference between addons, macro's and hacks like cheatengine.. but this is the internets - You know as well as I do that there are an awful lot of people just come to a thread after reading the header and the last post and throw in their opinion without actually reading any of the discussion to actually inform them on the subject they are talking about.
Sure, but the person quoted didn't say he wasn't using the addon & his post was actually spot on* in describing what the addon does. So what's the problem?
There's also a ton of people who come in not knowing what the addon does and tell people to just "use it themselves" or "stop complaining".
*apart from dueling part, it's actually disabled in duels by Dorrino, but can be manually enabled by anyone with LUA knowledge.Edited by DDuke on October 23, 2017 3:09PM0 -
Maikon✭✭✭✭InvitationNotFound wrote: »alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »i have been thinking about this add on alot, and to be honest its not on, someone like me can add a bit of scrip and get the add on to move me out of the way, when it detects an attack coming, this is purely cheating, let me explain, its like having macro's it gives you an unfair advantage over the person you are playing against and to make matters worse, the peeps using it want say they are even in dueling. So why not lets us take it a step further and make an add on that procs several skills at once and move you, why not even have it proc all skills at once ;p and do it automatic then you can say look iam the best, even though its the pc playing the game
You don't seem to understand what an addon is capable of doing and what restrictions are in place.
That's my problem with this whole discussion - and the poll that DDuke keeps linking.. There seem to be a lot of people who haven't tried the addon, yet are throwing in their opinions about it without the slightest idea what it does and doesn't do.
And what's your basis for such assumption?I'm getting a very strong impression that many of the people saying it IS cheating (not all - because it really isn't clear) are not speaking from an informed perspective, yet those who believe it isn't cheating are probably mostly using it - and so ARE speaking from an informed opinion.
I've done my best to inform people by recording multiple videos showing what the addon does & explaining how it's ruining the game in about a thousand different ways.
But you're right, people should try it out - that'd just reinforce the negative opinions about it just like it reinforced mine when I started using it.
I use it (just see my latest PvP video for proof) and it is 100% exploiting/cheating, just like Sharpened Maces, Double Mundus & teleporting into enemy keeps were. Informed enough opinion for you?
So you use miat's, believing that it is an actual exploit/cheat. Which is to say that you yourself are intentionally cheating, which is breaking the TOS, which means you should have your account banned. Is that correct?4 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭InvitationNotFound wrote: »alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »i have been thinking about this add on alot, and to be honest its not on, someone like me can add a bit of scrip and get the add on to move me out of the way, when it detects an attack coming, this is purely cheating, let me explain, its like having macro's it gives you an unfair advantage over the person you are playing against and to make matters worse, the peeps using it want say they are even in dueling. So why not lets us take it a step further and make an add on that procs several skills at once and move you, why not even have it proc all skills at once ;p and do it automatic then you can say look iam the best, even though its the pc playing the game
You don't seem to understand what an addon is capable of doing and what restrictions are in place.
That's my problem with this whole discussion - and the poll that DDuke keeps linking.. There seem to be a lot of people who haven't tried the addon, yet are throwing in their opinions about it without the slightest idea what it does and doesn't do.
And what's your basis for such assumption?I'm getting a very strong impression that many of the people saying it IS cheating (not all - because it really isn't clear) are not speaking from an informed perspective, yet those who believe it isn't cheating are probably mostly using it - and so ARE speaking from an informed opinion.
I've done my best to inform people by recording multiple videos showing what the addon does & explaining how it's ruining the game in about a thousand different ways.
But you're right, people should try it out - that'd just reinforce the negative opinions about it just like it reinforced mine when I started using it.
I use it (just see my latest PvP video for proof) and it is 100% exploiting/cheating, just like Sharpened Maces, Double Mundus & teleporting into enemy keeps were. Informed enough opinion for you?
So you use miat's, believing that it is an actual exploit/cheat. Which is to say that you yourself are intentionally cheating, which is breaking the TOS, which means you should have your account banned. Is that correct?
Yes.
But they can't, because they'd have to ban half the player base if they enforced their rules on exploiting/cheating that strictly. Just look at how many people use the addon.
It'll be used until it gets fixed, and then people will find new cheats/exploits (whether in game bugs or API ones) just like always.
All we can do is report these bugs (not defend them) & hope ZOS fixes them fast - and if they don't fix them fast and they severely affect the gameplay... well, time for forum posts
Raising awareness about issues tends to make them go away faster.Edited by DDuke on October 23, 2017 3:23PM1 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭InvitationNotFound wrote: »edit: just saw that you've highlighted the word defending.
No, actually I don't consider this defending. As mentioned several times, I don't care at all what is happening with that part of the API. I simply don't.
Sure you don't care. Is that why you keep posting & defending it?
"It's not cheating"
"lots of people download it and think it's awesome"
Any kind of mental gymnastics you & a few others are trying to justify this addon's existence is defending it.
- You see, i'm not defending it, because x,y,z.
- Yeah, but why are you defending it, though?
I laughed so hard here. This is brilliant!Edited by Dorrino on October 23, 2017 3:24PM2 -
Idinuse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Just to let everyone know, we have been keeping a close eye on this thread and everyone's feedback on these types of addons. We can tell you that we're planning to make some changes to our API to disallow some aspects that we're simply not comfortable with. This is all actively in progress, and we'll let you know exactly what we plan to change when we have a better idea of when we'll be rolling it out; we want to give our addon developers a warning so they have a chance to iterate.
Again!JonnytheKing wrote: »
Facts are facts, I agree. But when the context is being ignored, they are useless. Ok, so we can't technically call this a cheat. Fine. But this means jack *** in terms of how this addon is affecting the game. Why do you live inside such a rabbit hole? Or do you really believe Miats point was just to show to us it isn't a cheat, and that he's not also trying to justify his cancerous addon at the same time? If it was the former, this discussion would have been over a lot faster.JonnytheKing wrote: »JonnytheKing wrote: »So are poeple happy about zos making changers to this , im glad that we got something done. i want to thank the poeple that your smart about this and could see that it wasnt a cheat , but sadly must poeple are dumb and blind and think it ok to get angry at me for trying to help the community witch by the way i did . But at the end of the day im happy that zos replied its a GOOD start
You loose all credibility when you label people as smart or dumb, depending on whether they agree with you or not.
lol there is facts and opinions, its got nothing to do with them agreeing with me, and all so when poeple act in a toxic way they all so lose credibility
Truth is, the guy (and many of his supporters) simply hate snipe ganks and losing to stealthed attacks. I mean, we even have posts from people that originally said they thought the functionalities of this addon were not okay and going too far, but AFTER they tried it suddenly said they enjoyed the addon because it helped them against gankers. The bias is painfully clear, just stop acting like you come here to argue facts, because you are not. You are using it as a veil to cover up your hidden motives and personal frustration from getting your sorry ass put into the dirt too many times.
If you haven't noticed, I've been trying to bring cheating to the forefront, hoping that ZoS would do something if enough of the community got behind it. I'd be the 1st person to say something about cheating but the fact is, it's not, ZoS does NOT consider it cheating but thats not saying that the addon is good for the game and ZoS needed to do something about it, hence why this video was made and because of this video and forum post ZoS ARE looking into it , but i have also talked to a lot of people that think the addon improves their time on the game, this addon in no way affects 95% of the players because it doesn't change anything for large scale pvp, people have overreacted to this and missed the point of the video, which was to say that it was in ZoS' hands and they needed to do something and as far as this statement goes "You are using it as a veil to cover up your hidden motives and personal frustration from getting your sorry ass put into the dirt too many times. " I have no idea what you mean? my hidden motives lol and my ass put in to the mud too many times, WTF lol so once agian i dont no why people are hating on me when im just trying to help the community. im not the bad guy hear and never was, i set out to do something and we did , Zos is changing and it seems like every one s still not happy.
I think the main issue is that you have approached this situation from an objective standpoint, or at least you have put on a facade of doing so. When in reality anyone with a few brain cells and basic comprehension skills can see that you are in fact a supporter of the addon and want to defend it.
If you would be more honest about your bias towards the addon, then probably people would give you more credit. But people don't like to be lied to, or treated like they are stupid.
On the plus side I'm sure your channel has had more traffic since these events so it's not all that bad. People forget things like this fast anyway. In 1 month no one will even remember who you are, except those that actually watch your content.
As far as I've understood it Jonny initiated, or reinitiated, a call to the community to get together and unite behind the calls against cheating of all sorts in ESO as per his first thread on the matter. As an initiative to this he wanted to show that it's not just about shouting foul and cheat at everything, but that these concerns, at the end of the day xD, are true and unbiased, and rather facts than emotions.
If he at that point examines whether Miat's is technically cheating or unfair play, or game breaking rather, due to the fact that the API calls are Zos's responsibility, I fail to see where he would be biased towards Miat. Even if it might be inclining to that Miat quite successfully might have won him with arguments, that still doesn't diminish the honest intent of actually showing Zos that ESO as a community does not accept cheating in the game.
I despise the Miat's Addon in every way, but I won't resort to name calling just because someone makes a distinction between cheating and foul play.
And as @olivesforge pointed out, there are vastly more happening behind the scene in private and yet some to worry about.
Come on guys. The overall good intention against cheating, (and the acute state of cheating in ESO needs it), is what should be on the agenda, and for that Jonny has made something good happen. IMHO.Edited by Idinuse on October 23, 2017 3:49PMSed ut perspiciatis unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium dolorem que laudantium, totam rem aperiam, eaque ipsa quae ab illo inventore veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia voluptas sit aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt. Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?1 -
Riejael✭✭✭✭✭But they can't, because they'd have to ban half the player base if they enforced their rules on exploiting/cheating that strictly.
IMO they should ban/suspend people from the game that violate the forum rules such as calling people cheaters and other personal attacks. That would solve the problem of this thread of those flyby people who don't care if they get a 7day forum suspension since they only post one day a week anyway.3 -
Vizier✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's not a "cheat" based on the allowable usage of the API. It does, however, appear to have some seriously destructive unintended (by ZOS) consequences to PvP. These consequences are both general to the overall population and very specific to the NB class that relies on the ability to be undetected before they strike.
Those that do not support the addon need to frame the argument differently than calling it a "cheat." That only allows for a counter to your argument that you can't win. It literally is not a cheat due to currently allowable access to the API / combat logs. It IS, however, a game breaking addon that needs to be stamped out by ZOS if they have any integrity or desire to maintain a relatively fair PvP environment...period.1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's not a "cheat" based on the allowable usage of the API. It does, however, appear to have some seriously destructive unintended (by ZOS) consequences to PvP. These consequences are both general to the overall population and very specific to the NB class that relies on the ability to be undetected before they strike.
Those that do not support the addon need to frame the argument differently than calling it a "cheat." That only allows for a counter to your argument that you can't win. It literally is not a cheat due to currently allowable access to the API / combat logs. It IS, however, a game breaking addon that needs to be stamped out by ZOS if they have any integrity or desire to maintain a relatively fair PvP environment...period.
I think the argument is that since the API was letting you see attacks from stealth enemies, it should have been "/bug" instead of creating an add-on that utilizes it's function. And it was up to the players that found it to do so, and the rest of the playerbase to continue to "/bug" to keep the DEV team mindful of its presence. But this part hints at issues of ethics, not necessarily TOS violating, because one can negatively view the add-on creator but ZOS wont be punishing the creator. And the addon creator can say things like "the API had it, so I didn't think it was broken".
Also things can exist in the game which aren't formally reviewed as exploits because they haven't been formally "/bug" for the team to review.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It's not a "cheat" based on the allowable usage of the API. It does, however, appear to have some seriously destructive unintended (by ZOS) consequences to PvP. These consequences are both general to the overall population and very specific to the NB class that relies on the ability to be undetected before they strike.
Those that do not support the addon need to frame the argument differently than calling it a "cheat." That only allows for a counter to your argument that you can't win. It literally is not a cheat due to currently allowable access to the API / combat logs. It IS, however, a game breaking addon that needs to be stamped out by ZOS if they have any integrity or desire to maintain a relatively fair PvP environment...period.
I think the argument is that since the API was letting you see attacks from stealth enemies, it should have been "/bug" instead of creating an add-on that utilizes it's function. And it was up to the players that found it to do so, and the rest of the playerbase to continue to "/bug" to keep the DEV team mindful of its presence. But this part hints at issues of ethics, not necessarily TOS violating, because one can negatively view the add-on creator but ZOS wont be punishing the creator. And the addon creator can say things like "the API had it, so I didn't think it was broken".
Also things can exist in the game which aren't formally reviewed as exploits because they haven't been formally "/bug" for the team to review.
Yep, that's pretty much it.
But it's pointless to try and explain people something they use/enjoy could be considered an exploit/cheat.
I mean, how is abusing bugs/flaws in the API any different than abusing bugs/flaws in game (i.e. exploiting)?
The only thing left to argue about is whether these functions were in intentionally or not - and all evidence presented so far points towards the API not functioning as intended.
What I'm most amazed by is that some people really believe that ZOS intentionally (as in "let's leave this in, we know what will happen") left the API as it is in order to ruin cast time builds.
That just suggests to me some people suffer from a severe lack of common sense.0 -
Dredlord✭✭✭✭✭DDuke is right, the rest of the his thread is mostly a bunch of scrubs trying to defend and preserve their advantage/crutch.
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thedude33✭✭✭✭✭JonnytheKing wrote: »So are poeple happy about zos making changers to this , im glad that we got something done. i want to thank the poeple that your smart about this and could see that it wasnt a cheat , but sadly must poeple are dumb and blind and think it ok to get angry at me for trying to help the community witch by the way i did . But at the end of the day im happy that zos replied its a GOOD start
You loose all credibility when you label people as smart or dumb, depending on whether they agree with you or not.
Not to mention his writing style lol
Telling someone ...omg mate u r stoopid !! ...Edited by thedude33 on October 23, 2017 5:58PM1 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Who cares who thinks who is cheating anymore ? The bottom line is ZoS allowed this to go on so long some players left . Including the author . It's nice to see that's it's finally back in the investigation scene and a decision to change it has been made for a second time but the damage is done . Addons are still out there that cause other troubles like the one that got clever alchemist nerfed . Instead of removing the addon the game gets adjusted for the addon . I think that's crazy . There are so many strange decisions and or lack of resolve by ZoS that some have just said screw it . When player personal convenance out weighs game design by the publisher , that's a bad sign . Even worse is a year of game time gone by with little and sometimes no communication . These players are already invested somewhere else now . People need to know the creators are just as invested as the players in maintaining a fair play environment or they move on . I hope for those left ZoS works harder to keep them but there is much skepticism from others this will ever improve . They never should of allowed something like this to go on for so long that some of their audience just quit caring and lost faith .4
This discussion has been closed.