PTS Update 16 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknights

Doctordarkspawn · September 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Cutting off someone's arms so they appricate their feet is a strange approach .

Also a bad one.

tinythinker · September 2017

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_Wrobel wrote: »

We’d like to briefly touch on some feedback we’ve seen for this class. First, we’ve seen some of you mention that Petrify is more appealing than Stonefist since it’s more reliable. To help address this, we’ll be decreasing the melee range for Petrify so it covers a slightly smaller area – this will also make it slightly harder to apply to the enemy to make up for the increased power level of Petrify. We’ve also seen requests to improve some of the unpopular morphs such as Fragmented Shield, Reflective Plate, and Cinder Storm among others; we’ll take a look and see what we can do to improve these in the future.

We also understand many of you would like to see Inferno deal AoE damage. However, we feel Dragonknights have sufficient options with Ash Cloud, Dark Talons, Inhale, and Fiery Breath. Lastly, we’ve seen the feedback that Cauterize ticks too slowly while healing other low-health allies. We’re going to look into this more, but aren’t planning to make any changes at this time.

Thanks for taking the time to post your feedback. We appreciate it, and would love for you to keep the conversation going.

So because Stonefist is not a particularly effective skill you are going to nerf Petrify to make Stonefist look better? I don't think that is exactly what we were asking for...

That's been the theme of the comments today for Sorcs as well today. It was the theme of the Templar changes a couple of patches ago. Can't stop the momentum, so enjoy the ride.

Corpier · September 2017

Give Cinder Storm Major Evasion and revert it to be auto cast under the caster's feet.

As for Cauterize, I'd prefer this morph to be reworked. Stop trying to promote the healer dk. Just. Stop.

The new Shifting Standard recast is just asinine since every time it is moved it has to be recasted taking up a global cool down in which the dk could have done anything else. Put it on the dk's back and have it automatically follow the caster like Eye of the Storm.

As for Petrify and Stonefist, ffs nerfing a balanced skill to make an under preforming one more appealing is just lazy! Rework the under preforming skill.

Anne_Firehawk · September 2017

Corpier wrote: »

The new Shifting Standard recast is just asinine since every time it is moved it has to be recasted taking up a global cool down in which the dk could have done anything else. Put it on the dk's back and have it automatically follow the caster like Eye of the Storm.

The worst thing is, you do NOT generate ultimate while it's up xD pure crap

WhiteNoiseMaker · September 2017

ZOS_Wrobel wrote: »

We’d like to briefly touch on some feedback we’ve seen for this class. First, we’ve seen some of you mention that Petrify is more appealing than Stonefist since it’s more reliable. To help address this, we’ll be decreasing the melee range for Petrify so it covers a slightly smaller area – this will also make it slightly harder to apply to the enemy to make up for the increased power level of Petrify.

Wow...

I used to defend some of your very weird decisions in the past, Wrobel, but this post makes me feel as if you didn't even actually read the feedback here. Petrify was put into the rebalance queue because no one was using it, most pointedly because it was useless. You saw the praise heaped upon the new mechanics on Petrify, and yet somehow confused the comments about Stonefist's Heal Morph being unreliable (no intuitive method of knowing who gets the heal), taking that to mean that you had to scale back on the improvements on Petrify in order to somehow make Stonefist less undesirable? This is the very essence of cutting off your nose to spite your face! Why is this suddenly a zero-sum game where Petrify didn't even get its improvements into Live ...because Stonefist was requested to be adjusted too?

ZOS_Wrobel wrote: »

We’ve also seen requests to improve some of the unpopular morphs such as Fragmented Shield, Reflective Plate, and Cinder Storm among others; we’ll take a look and see what we can do to improve these in the future.

There's still 4-5 weeks in your normal PTS pattern if previous experience holds true. Why is this being deferred to a nebulous and vague 'future'? You've gotten some very specific feedback about what is lacking in the DK arsenal, why not make some actual use out of it and put something out, even if it needs refinement? That's establishing a current and visible series of progression that can be built upon, getting more people enthused about taking part in the PTS and feedback process, rather than the cynical and apathetic response that PTS normally engenders.

ZOS_Wrobel wrote: »

Lastly, we’ve seen the feedback that Cauterize ticks too slowly while healing other low-health allies. We’re going to look into this more, but aren’t planning to make any changes at this time.

So what you're saying is that our feedback really doesn't have any affect on the actual planned and upcoming PTS and Live patches at all...? May I ask why we are even being solicited for feedback at all then? If people are giving you sincere and honest responses about the current mechanics simply not working well, especially in regards to the Healing Morph, what seems to be the issue with actually acting upon that feedback? Is there a secret focus group that you would rather get some kind of confirmation bias from? I am genuinely befuddled by the complete dismissal of the feedback you're getting this early in the PTS phase, a period that by all understanding, is meant for you to collect the data to act upon BEFORE you go live. I'm really just left feeling utterly left out in the cold by the manner of response you posted.

Please explain what your mode of thinking and process of decision making here, so we can relate to and understand why no actionable changes will be occurring this patch other than to leave Petrify and Cauterize in a unusable and unwanted state?

Vynn · September 2017

Petrify didn't need a nerf, it was already nearly half the range of Stone Giant. If ESO live today was any indication, @Wrobel has the directional and innovative skills of a sea cucumber. Want abilities to be useful and different? Try creating something new to eliminate redundancy or listening to some of the feedback out there instead of just BMing on the fanbase because you are afraid to actually put the work in.

Xsorus · September 2017

the hilarious part is nerfing the range isn't going to cause me to use Stone Fist over Petrify...

Petrify could be 2 meter range and it'd still be better then Stonefist.

zyk · September 2017

ZOS should just reverse the changes to disorient abilities entirely. They were all useful, none were OP and no one I could see was complaining about them.

@ZOS_Wrobel With the changes to Disorient abilities, you are ending playstyles that players have enjoyed for years based on what seems to be a whim -- as these changes do not seem to be necessary.

Saint_Bud · September 2017

ZOS_Wrobel wrote: »

We’d like to briefly touch on some feedback we’ve seen for this class. First, we’ve seen some of you mention that Petrify is more appealing than Stonefist since it’s more reliable. To help address this, we’ll be decreasing the melee range for Petrify so it covers a slightly smaller area – this will also make it slightly harder to apply to the enemy to make up for the increased power level of Petrify. We’ve also seen requests to improve some of the unpopular morphs such as Fragmented Shield, Reflective Plate, and Cinder Storm among others; we’ll take a look and see what we can do to improve these in the future.

We also understand many of you would like to see Inferno deal AoE damage. However, we feel Dragonknights have sufficient options with Ash Cloud, Dark Talons, Inhale, and Fiery Breath. Lastly, we’ve seen the feedback that Cauterize ticks too slowly while healing other low-health allies. We’re going to look into this more, but aren’t planning to make any changes at this time.

Thanks for taking the time to post your feedback. We appreciate it, and would love for you to keep the conversation going.

Can you pls take a look in the pve damage output from a mdk to a stamdk. There is a differant up to 10 k or more to a stamdk. In a raidgroup thats make a huge differant. My suggestion is to buff the damage of engulfing flames and eruption. They are not strong in compare to similär skills like endless hail, caltrops or randing slashes.

strebor2095 · September 2017

@ZOS_Wrobel ,

Stonefist:
Would you consider giving Stonefist a stamina spammable morph? Or even have a damaging tanky ability?

Ideally:

unmorphed: knocks down a single target at close range, costs magicka, does a bit of damage.

Morph 1: (Name: Momentous Stonefist) Aoe Knockdown, magicka, increased cost, longer range. Maybe instead of aoe knockdown grants minor expedition - speed since MagDKs are unnesecarily gimped compared to other mag classes with their melee req. for any damage at all.

Morph 2: (Name: Aggressive Stonesplinters) loses knockdown, costs stamina (or health, or stam AND health!), does damage based on stam/health.

The reason I suggest a health cost is because Earthen Heart abilities synergize too well to just cost stam, for it to just be a Stamina ability. If NB are getting a cool self damage ability, share the love and don't make them feel too lonely with weird abilities.

Inferno... hard to fix this. Just give up on the heal, DKs have way better options everywhere.
Just let it be the DK version of Boundless Storm, shooting off fire randomly. Even have it tick slower! Possibly make it double bar like Aegis. Even give it a unique debuff, like "minor slowness" where you go 15% slower for the duration.

Base form:
You become a fiery beast, dealing X Flame damage to a random enemy every 1.5 seconds for 12 seconds. Gain Minor Slowness and Minor Prophecy.

Morph 1: (Name: Flames of Oblivion) Gains Major Savagery, converts to deal damage based on your highest stat.

Morph 2: (Name: Inferno Confluence) Removes Minor Slowness, if it hits the same target twice in a row it deals 50% increased damage.

Dubhliam · September 2017

Add this line in the Engulfing Flames skill:

Affected enemies under 25% health take up to 300% more damage from your Ardent Flame abilities.

IxSTALKERxI · September 2017

strebor2095 wrote: »

Inferno... hard to fix this. Just give up on the heal, DKs have way better options everywhere.

I like the idea of the heal morph and believe it has potential with some tweaks - not for solo play but for small groups. (the total healing potential need's to be equal to 1 cast of mutagen for it to be worth it imo)

Edit: here are some quick tooltip numbers which I based my earlier feedback on...

Mutagen: 7282 x2 targets plus additional 2518 x2 targets = 19600 total

Cauterize: 2187 x 4 ticks =8748 total

________________________________________________

Proposed change of making it tick every 3 secs instead of 5 secs:
2187 x 6 ticks = 13122

Even this change doesn't really put it on par with mutagen so there is a lot of room to play with which is why I suggested even upping it to 2 targets each time it ticks (although doing this would make it better than mutagen and I kind of like the fact that it's a more bursty heal over time so i don't really wanna lower the heal value on it, also mutagen heal is over a 5 second longer duration so 2 targets may be too much).

Anyways this morph can definitely become useful with some tweaks. It's just a matter of getting the numbers right.

Kilandros · September 2017

I've said it before in other threads over the last year so I'll say it again here. If you want to differentiate between Stonefist and Fossilize.

Petrify - Remains 12-15m unblockable/undodgeable (now stun) CC.

Stonefist - Reduce range to 5-8 meters. If target is knocked down, they are also set off balance.

That's a Stonefist I would use because I wouldn't be using it as a dedicated CC like Fossilize--I'd be using it in conjunction with Power Lash for burst. The CC on that new ability is a bonus allowing me to more reliably land Power Lash and just adds more damage to the skill itself when morphed to Stone Giant. But being able to apply Off-Balance on a medium-hitting ability without needing to Flame Lash into Power Lash would give mDK that one-two combo that they've been missing for awhile.

Most importantly, it would differentiate between the two abilities in a meaningful way and not "well we want there to be a difference in these two single-target cc's, so we're taking range away from one." Nerfing the range on Petrify isn't going to make Stonefist anymore attractive. DK has NEVER NEEDED a long-ranged CC like Stonefist that is just a CC. You guys started to get this right when you added the heal (albeit a weak heal) to one morph and a damage increase upon CC to the other morph. But those buffs still came up short because the ability was just missing the utility that would make it synergize with other abilities.

So, again, reduce the range on Stonefist not Petrify. Add off-balance effect to targets who are successfully knocked down by Stonefist and I promise you people will start using this ability.

Kilandros · September 2017

@ZOS_Wrobel I posted this back on July 3. Suggestion #1 is Stonefist:

Magicka DK struggles in its current form relative to other classes because it lacks burst, mobility, and defensive utility beyond blocking. Many of us are frustrated with the mDK permablock builds that ZOS is (rightfully) trying to kill off. But those builds are part of a larger problem--mDK defensive utility has been significantly nerfed over the last several years. This has pigeonholed mDKs into permablock builds which are neither fun to play nor to fight. Obviously reliance on blocking is only further compounded when you factor in that DKs have an average at best escape mechanic in Mist Form, and that DKs rely heavily on defense as the attrition class--that is, wearing opponents down via DoTs.

The suggestions that follow are aimed at making Magicka DK less reliant on block. Full stop. With more build-in defensive mechanics, Magicka DK can begin to really explore build options outside of S/B.

Stone Giant - Stone Fist morph
Range reduced from 28m to 5m;
If enemy is stunned, continues to deal 100% more damage and sets enemy off balance;
Damage type changed to Fire.

Reasoning
The range on Stone Giant is completely unnecessary and makes it more of a "troll" ability than a useful combat ability. Furthermore, DKs already have a superb single-target ranged CC in Fossilize--we don't need another one with slightly more range and more damage. Adding the "Off-Balance" effect will allow for an immediate Power Lash follow-up attack instead of the more drawn out Stone Fist -> Flame Lash to Off-Balance -> Power Lash follow-up. Allowing a direct and immediate Power Lash follow up will create that one-two burst combo punch that DKs desperately need. Removing the ranged component is, I think, a good compromise for the buff off adding the Off-Balance effect, and would make this ability feel like a unique melee ability that can deal good damage, stun, and prep a target for Power Lash.

Cinder Storm - Ash Storm morph
In addition to current damage and snares, while standing in your Cinder Storm negative effects have their duration on you reduced by 50% and enemies damaged by your Cinder Storm have a 50% chance to be set Off-Balance. Ability is now cast at your feet.

Reasoning
Cinder Storm used to be one of our best defensive abilities but both morphs were converted into placeable DPS abilities when Miss Chance was removed from the game. This was a big mistake by ZOS as removing defensive abilities from a stand-your-ground class just makes that class more reliant on whatever defense is left (in this case, block). Reducing the duration of negative effects on you while standing inside your Cinder Storm would go a loooong way toward allowing DKs to stand their ground without just trying to block everything. The reduction duration is the same as Efficient Purge, so I don't think it's too much. The addition of Off-Balance I think also helps a lot as it allows the DK to proc Power Lash more often. Making Off-Balance more available to DK helps both their sustain (because Power Lash is free to cast) and their defense (because Power Lash procs a short HoT).

Magma Shell - Magma Armor morph
Duration increased by 30%;
Damage increased by 150%.

Reasoning
A duration increase is warranted because this ability costs 200 ultimate and is, frankly, less effective a defensive ult than Spell Wall which costs only 100 ultimate. Increasing the duration to about 14 seconds makes it double the duration (and double the cost) of Spell Wall. The damage increase would make the DoT tick for around ~2,500 damage in PvE, so about ~1,250 damage per tick in PvP. The damage is currently laughable, and since its outclassed by Spell Wall the ultimate really doesn't make sense to use in any scenario. Compare it to Corrosive Armor which is very useful because it adds a significant damage buff in addition to making you very tanky. Buffing the damage of Magma Shell by about 150% would make this ultimate do decent damage and you would start seeing mDKs pop this to jump into the fray and go ham for ~14-15 seconds. Again, opening up build options for DKs to soak up and dish out damage without standing there holding block.

Volatile Armor - Spiked Armor morph
Continues to grant Major Ward and Major Resolve for 20 seconds;
No longer provides a 10-second DoT activation;
Damage return on melee hit changed to deal Flame damage, melee attack return damage increased by 100%.

Reasoning
Let's make this a true Thorns type ability that really punishes people for spamming melee attacks on mDK. A weak reactive DoT paired with a weak active DoT is still weak. A ~100% damage buff to the damage return would put the tooltip around 2k, or 1k damage return in PvP. This helps mDK defensively because people will be punished for just spamming melee attacks on you. Removing the DoT on activation balances the ability around these buffs and keeps it mechanically distinct from, say, Hurricane or Boundless Storm.

Flames and Oblivion and Cauterize - Inferno Morphs
Both abilities changed to 9m AoE

Reasoning
This one is pretty obvious. Inferno used to be an AoE and was a super cool skill. Now it's just some weird magelight. The biggest problem with Flames of Oblivion is that you can't control who it hits and it only hits once every 5 seconds. As a mDK I need to keep up constant DoT pressure and I need to be able to control who those DoTs hit. Changing this ability to an AoE solves that problem. Another benefit of making this an AoE is that it gives DK access to a DoT they can keep on enemy players that that player cannot purge. I am not a fan of unpurgeable DoTs, but DK needs more AoE DoTs that can't be purged off.

Aerem · September 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

I've said it before in other threads over the last year so I'll say it again here. If you want to differentiate between Stonefist and Fossilize.

Petrify - Remains 12-15m unblockable/undodgeable (now stun) CC.

Stonefist - Reduce range to 5-8 meters. If target is knocked down, they are also set off balance.

That's a Stonefist I would use because I wouldn't be using it as a dedicated CC like Fossilize--I'd be using it in conjunction with Power Lash for burst. The CC on that new ability is a bonus allowing me to more reliably land Power Lash and just adds more damage to the skill itself when morphed to Stone Giant. But being able to apply Off-Balance on a medium-hitting ability without needing to Flame Lash into Power Lash would give mDK that one-two combo that they've been missing for awhile.

Most importantly, it would differentiate between the two abilities in a meaningful way and not "well we want there to be a difference in these two single-target cc's, so we're taking range away from one." Nerfing the range on Petrify isn't going to make Stonefist anymore attractive. DK has NEVER NEEDED a long-ranged CC like Stonefist that is just a CC. You guys started to get this right when you added the heal (albeit a weak heal) to one morph and a damage increase upon CC to the other morph. But those buffs still came up short because the ability was just missing the utility that would make it synergize with other abilities.

So, again, reduce the range on Stonefist not Petrify. Add off-balance effect to targets who are successfully knocked down by Stonefist and I promise you people will start using this ability.

This would actually be really cool and could set up some really cool burst options for pvp. +1

NBrookus · September 2017

Starting at about 7:15.

If an instant cast unblockable, undodgeable stun is SO powerful it needs to be nerfed to 8 meters... why do sorcs get one with 28/33 meter range? It makes no sense.

If the mere presence of a DK is supposed to be a threat so severe you have to move out of melee range (*snicker*) Wings needs to be unnerfed.

I like @Kilandros ' idea better -- make Stone Giant have the shorter range but knock players off balance so we can get a power lash combo.

krathos · September 2017

This is insane. Remember when they tried to nerf sorc and ended up buffing it in the end? We got the opposite. They tried to buff us and ended up nerfing us. At this point don't even bother changing petrify. It's better in its current state than it would be as a stun with only 8m range. The fact that a skill was nerfed because you made the DK class SO BLAND over the last couple years that it has two very similar skills is insane. Stone fist needs to be reworked into something better. There are plenty of good ideas around here for that.

What makes it crazier is that on ESO live Wrobel commented that they realized a 15m stun through block/dodge is strong... so they also said that's why they nerfed petrify... yet the new mag sorc version of rune prison (which is the same thing as petrify now for SOME reason) is 28 meters... and then as a response to that you take the CC off frags? What???

Revert rune prison, give c-frag its stun back, make petrify 15m again (or hell at least 12 and leave it a stun), and change stone fist to be one of the many great ideas people have suggested for it over the years.

ak_pvp · September 2017

@ZOS_Wrobel

You want differences between abilities yes, something new and different, kilandros's ideas are great and balanced, without affecting PvE, however the stoen fist idea then cancels out the shattering rocks morph of petrify.

I present to you a replacement stonefist: Tectonics. This my friend is a method to make DKs pull PvP friendly, giving it utility and multiple uses without being brokenly overpowered. It also fits the DK theme much better than some random chains.

Tectonics: Stuns for 1.5s and pulls after that time. If the stun is broken, then it doesn't pull, and grants CC immunity. Otherwise it doesn't grant immunity. Fault lines: Lowers the enemies spell and physical resistance by minor values, even if it doesn't pull. The other morph I ran out of a creative name for. Same as normal mag return thing.

Anne_Firehawk · October 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

So, again, reduce the range on Stonefist not Petrify. Add off-balance effect to targets who are successfully knocked down by Stonefist and I promise you people will start using this ability.

10/10 hired

Xsorus · October 2017

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

So, again, reduce the range on Stonefist not Petrify. Add off-balance effect to targets who are successfully knocked down by Stonefist and I promise you people will start using this ability.

10/10 hired

Stonefist should already allow you to power lash people.

Power lash basically pops when you flame lash a stunned or rooted target as flame lash itself does an off balance.

His change wouldn't change much in terms of power lash if that's what he's going for as it's already done via flame lash.

Not to mention the other morph of petrify does exactly that only it's bloody aoe

Kilandros · October 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

So, again, reduce the range on Stonefist not Petrify. Add off-balance effect to targets who are successfully knocked down by Stonefist and I promise you people will start using this ability.

10/10 hired

Stonefist should already allow you to power lash people.

Power lash basically pops when you flame lash a stunned or rooted target as flame lash itself does an off balance.

His change wouldn't change much in terms of power lash if that's what he's going for as it's already done via flame lash.

Not to mention the other morph of petrify does exactly that only it's bloody aoe

It allows for an immediate Power Lash instead of Flame Lash into Power Lash. It would actually be quite strong.

I'll expand a bit. The whole concept of "burst" is really centered around doing maximum damage over the shortest amount of time. Sorcerer has tremendous burst because it can land 3 different abilities at exactly the same time regardless of GCDs. Yes, hitting a stunned or rooted target with Flame Lash will proc off-balance allowing for a Power Lash. But that combination requires 3 ability usages and 3 GCDs. And by the time you're ready for the Power Lash, the target has broken free, is blocking, has shielded, healed, etc. Adding the off balance effect to targets that are stunned by Stonefist just makes for a much cleaner and more efficient burst combo, and because Power Lash can be the very next attack after the stun, it's more likely to land for full effect. And because Power Lash is free and hits harder, it would be an all around improvement to mDK combat efficiency.

Xsorus · October 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

So, again, reduce the range on Stonefist not Petrify. Add off-balance effect to targets who are successfully knocked down by Stonefist and I promise you people will start using this ability.

10/10 hired

Stonefist should already allow you to power lash people.

Power lash basically pops when you flame lash a stunned or rooted target as flame lash itself does an off balance.

His change wouldn't change much in terms of power lash if that's what he's going for as it's already done via flame lash.

Not to mention the other morph of petrify does exactly that only it's bloody aoe

It allows for an immediate Power Lash instead of Flame Lash into Power Lash. It would actually be quite strong.

I'll expand a bit. The whole concept of "burst" is really centered around doing maximum damage over the shortest amount of time. Sorcerer has tremendous burst because it can land 3 different abilities at exactly the same time regardless of GCDs. Yes, hitting a stunned or rooted target with Flame Lash will proc off-balance allowing for a Power Lash. But that combination requires 3 ability usages and 3 GCDs. And by the time you're ready for the Power Lash, the target has broken free, is blocking, has shielded, healed, etc. Adding the off balance effect to targets that are stunned by Stonefist just makes for a much cleaner and more efficient burst combo, and because Power Lash can be the very next attack after the stun, it's more likely to land for full effect. And because Power Lash is free and hits harder, it would be an all around improvement to mDK combat efficiency.

I mean yea it would, but you're applying the off balance after the ability knocks down. If you get knocked down you're eating that power lash if it becomes before a flame lash or afterward. The 3 gcds you're talking about is actually just two. You knock down the target via stonefist you then flame lash which procs power lash which you then do power lash. In your case you'd go directly into power lash which will save you less then 1 second which is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

This also is completely ignoring the fact you can pickup the second morph of petrify that has a 50% chance to proc an aoe off balance on every target around the target when it breaks.

youre also not taking into account the other reason people choose petrify over stonefist in the first place

You can block and dodge stone fist... you cannot do that to petrify.

Kilandros · October 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

So, again, reduce the range on Stonefist not Petrify. Add off-balance effect to targets who are successfully knocked down by Stonefist and I promise you people will start using this ability.

10/10 hired

Stonefist should already allow you to power lash people.

Power lash basically pops when you flame lash a stunned or rooted target as flame lash itself does an off balance.

His change wouldn't change much in terms of power lash if that's what he's going for as it's already done via flame lash.

Not to mention the other morph of petrify does exactly that only it's bloody aoe

It allows for an immediate Power Lash instead of Flame Lash into Power Lash. It would actually be quite strong.

I'll expand a bit. The whole concept of "burst" is really centered around doing maximum damage over the shortest amount of time. Sorcerer has tremendous burst because it can land 3 different abilities at exactly the same time regardless of GCDs. Yes, hitting a stunned or rooted target with Flame Lash will proc off-balance allowing for a Power Lash. But that combination requires 3 ability usages and 3 GCDs. And by the time you're ready for the Power Lash, the target has broken free, is blocking, has shielded, healed, etc. Adding the off balance effect to targets that are stunned by Stonefist just makes for a much cleaner and more efficient burst combo, and because Power Lash can be the very next attack after the stun, it's more likely to land for full effect. And because Power Lash is free and hits harder, it would be an all around improvement to mDK combat efficiency.

I mean yea it would, but you're applying the off balance after the ability knocks down. If you get knocked down you're eating that power lash if it becomes before a flame lash or afterward. The 3 gcds you're talking about is actually just two. You knock down the target via stonefist you then flame lash which procs power lash which you then do power lash. In your case you'd go directly into power lash which will save you less then 1 second which is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

This also is completely ignoring the fact you can pickup the second morph of petrify that has a 50% chance to proc an aoe off balance on every target around the target when it breaks.

youre also not taking into account the other reason people choose petrify over stonefist in the first place

You can block and dodge stone fist... you cannot do that to petrify.

I've taken literally all of that into account. I don't think you fully appreciate how strong a Stone Giant directly into a Power Lash would actually be. Nor do I think you appreciate how frequently your Power Lashes are actually blocked or otherwise mitigated in open world PvP. I also think you are trying to downplay the difference between 2 GCDs and 3 GCDs in PvP--it's huge. A single GCD is a BoL or a Hardened Ward that your opponent has time to cast. The fact is, Power Lash does significantly more damage than Flame Lash, procs a HoT, and is free. The more opportunity I have to cut out the Flame Lash and go straight to Power Lash, the better.

I'm not trying to replace Petrify, isn't that quite clear? I'm trying to help ZOS turn Stonefist into an offensive utility that would pair well with Power Lash. Petrify would remain the go-to CC--especially when paired with ultimates like Shooting Star.

Xsorus · October 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

So, again, reduce the range on Stonefist not Petrify. Add off-balance effect to targets who are successfully knocked down by Stonefist and I promise you people will start using this ability.

10/10 hired

Stonefist should already allow you to power lash people.

Power lash basically pops when you flame lash a stunned or rooted target as flame lash itself does an off balance.

His change wouldn't change much in terms of power lash if that's what he's going for as it's already done via flame lash.

Not to mention the other morph of petrify does exactly that only it's bloody aoe

It allows for an immediate Power Lash instead of Flame Lash into Power Lash. It would actually be quite strong.

I'll expand a bit. The whole concept of "burst" is really centered around doing maximum damage over the shortest amount of time. Sorcerer has tremendous burst because it can land 3 different abilities at exactly the same time regardless of GCDs. Yes, hitting a stunned or rooted target with Flame Lash will proc off-balance allowing for a Power Lash. But that combination requires 3 ability usages and 3 GCDs. And by the time you're ready for the Power Lash, the target has broken free, is blocking, has shielded, healed, etc. Adding the off balance effect to targets that are stunned by Stonefist just makes for a much cleaner and more efficient burst combo, and because Power Lash can be the very next attack after the stun, it's more likely to land for full effect. And because Power Lash is free and hits harder, it would be an all around improvement to mDK combat efficiency.

I mean yea it would, but you're applying the off balance after the ability knocks down. If you get knocked down you're eating that power lash if it becomes before a flame lash or afterward. The 3 gcds you're talking about is actually just two. You knock down the target via stonefist you then flame lash which procs power lash which you then do power lash. In your case you'd go directly into power lash which will save you less then 1 second which is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

This also is completely ignoring the fact you can pickup the second morph of petrify that has a 50% chance to proc an aoe off balance on every target around the target when it breaks.

youre also not taking into account the other reason people choose petrify over stonefist in the first place

You can block and dodge stone fist... you cannot do that to petrify.

I've taken literally all of that into account. I don't think you fully appreciate how strong a Stone Giant directly into a Power Lash would actually be. Nor do I think you appreciate how frequently your Power Lashes are actually blocked or otherwise mitigated in open world PvP. I also think you are trying to downplay the difference between 2 GCDs and 3 GCDs in PvP--it's huge. A single GCD is a BoL or a Hardened Ward that your opponent has time to cast. The fact is, Power Lash does significantly more damage than Flame Lash, procs a HoT, and is free. The more opportunity I have to cut out the Flame Lash and go straight to Power Lash, the better.

I'm not trying to replace Petrify, isn't that quite clear? I'm trying to help ZOS turn Stonefist into an offensive utility that would pair well with Power Lash. Petrify would remain the go-to CC--especially when paired with ultimates like Shooting Star.

Again you're applying the off balance after stone fist knocks down the target. You're not going to cc break in time to not eat the powerlash. That's not taking into account lag I'm saying that it's less then one second on animation time and you're going to eat it every time.

You're not going to CC break and stand up and bol... you're going to get knocked down, eat that flamelash then eat that power lash....

So why would I choose to use stone fist that again can be blocked and dodged via petrify?

Kilandros · October 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

So, again, reduce the range on Stonefist not Petrify. Add off-balance effect to targets who are successfully knocked down by Stonefist and I promise you people will start using this ability.

10/10 hired

Stonefist should already allow you to power lash people.

Power lash basically pops when you flame lash a stunned or rooted target as flame lash itself does an off balance.

His change wouldn't change much in terms of power lash if that's what he's going for as it's already done via flame lash.

Not to mention the other morph of petrify does exactly that only it's bloody aoe

It allows for an immediate Power Lash instead of Flame Lash into Power Lash. It would actually be quite strong.

I'll expand a bit. The whole concept of "burst" is really centered around doing maximum damage over the shortest amount of time. Sorcerer has tremendous burst because it can land 3 different abilities at exactly the same time regardless of GCDs. Yes, hitting a stunned or rooted target with Flame Lash will proc off-balance allowing for a Power Lash. But that combination requires 3 ability usages and 3 GCDs. And by the time you're ready for the Power Lash, the target has broken free, is blocking, has shielded, healed, etc. Adding the off balance effect to targets that are stunned by Stonefist just makes for a much cleaner and more efficient burst combo, and because Power Lash can be the very next attack after the stun, it's more likely to land for full effect. And because Power Lash is free and hits harder, it would be an all around improvement to mDK combat efficiency.

I mean yea it would, but you're applying the off balance after the ability knocks down. If you get knocked down you're eating that power lash if it becomes before a flame lash or afterward. The 3 gcds you're talking about is actually just two. You knock down the target via stonefist you then flame lash which procs power lash which you then do power lash. In your case you'd go directly into power lash which will save you less then 1 second which is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

This also is completely ignoring the fact you can pickup the second morph of petrify that has a 50% chance to proc an aoe off balance on every target around the target when it breaks.

youre also not taking into account the other reason people choose petrify over stonefist in the first place

You can block and dodge stone fist... you cannot do that to petrify.

I've taken literally all of that into account. I don't think you fully appreciate how strong a Stone Giant directly into a Power Lash would actually be. Nor do I think you appreciate how frequently your Power Lashes are actually blocked or otherwise mitigated in open world PvP. I also think you are trying to downplay the difference between 2 GCDs and 3 GCDs in PvP--it's huge. A single GCD is a BoL or a Hardened Ward that your opponent has time to cast. The fact is, Power Lash does significantly more damage than Flame Lash, procs a HoT, and is free. The more opportunity I have to cut out the Flame Lash and go straight to Power Lash, the better.

I'm not trying to replace Petrify, isn't that quite clear? I'm trying to help ZOS turn Stonefist into an offensive utility that would pair well with Power Lash. Petrify would remain the go-to CC--especially when paired with ultimates like Shooting Star.

Again you're applying the off balance after stone fist knocks down the target. You're not going to cc break in time to not eat the powerlash. That's not taking into account lag I'm saying that it's less then one second on animation time and you're going to eat it every time.

You're not going to CC break and stand up and bol... you're going to get knocked down, eat that flamelash then eat that power lash....

So why would I choose to use stone fist that again can be blocked and dodged via petrify?

(1) Stone Fist -> Knockdown + Off balance -> Power Lash = I'll have a much better chance of landing the Power Lash because the off balance occurs at the same moment that the target is knocked down, so while my opponent is in the process of breaking free, I'm already in the Power Lash animation. Secondly, this combination only charges me the cost of Stone Fist since Power Lash is free, creating a cheap an effective one-two combo.

(2) But if Stone Fist -> Knock Down -> Flash Lash -> Off Balance -> Power Lash = My opponent is breaking free during my Flame Lash animation, resulting in strong likelihood that the follow-up Power Lash is going to be mitigated somehow.

The beauty of my suggestion is that Petrify remains strong. If you don't think Stone Fist applying off balance works for you, by all means save the bar space and just use 15m Petrify.

Xsorus · October 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

So, again, reduce the range on Stonefist not Petrify. Add off-balance effect to targets who are successfully knocked down by Stonefist and I promise you people will start using this ability.

10/10 hired

Stonefist should already allow you to power lash people.

Power lash basically pops when you flame lash a stunned or rooted target as flame lash itself does an off balance.

His change wouldn't change much in terms of power lash if that's what he's going for as it's already done via flame lash.

Not to mention the other morph of petrify does exactly that only it's bloody aoe

It allows for an immediate Power Lash instead of Flame Lash into Power Lash. It would actually be quite strong.

I'll expand a bit. The whole concept of "burst" is really centered around doing maximum damage over the shortest amount of time. Sorcerer has tremendous burst because it can land 3 different abilities at exactly the same time regardless of GCDs. Yes, hitting a stunned or rooted target with Flame Lash will proc off-balance allowing for a Power Lash. But that combination requires 3 ability usages and 3 GCDs. And by the time you're ready for the Power Lash, the target has broken free, is blocking, has shielded, healed, etc. Adding the off balance effect to targets that are stunned by Stonefist just makes for a much cleaner and more efficient burst combo, and because Power Lash can be the very next attack after the stun, it's more likely to land for full effect. And because Power Lash is free and hits harder, it would be an all around improvement to mDK combat efficiency.

I mean yea it would, but you're applying the off balance after the ability knocks down. If you get knocked down you're eating that power lash if it becomes before a flame lash or afterward. The 3 gcds you're talking about is actually just two. You knock down the target via stonefist you then flame lash which procs power lash which you then do power lash. In your case you'd go directly into power lash which will save you less then 1 second which is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

This also is completely ignoring the fact you can pickup the second morph of petrify that has a 50% chance to proc an aoe off balance on every target around the target when it breaks.

youre also not taking into account the other reason people choose petrify over stonefist in the first place

You can block and dodge stone fist... you cannot do that to petrify.

I've taken literally all of that into account. I don't think you fully appreciate how strong a Stone Giant directly into a Power Lash would actually be. Nor do I think you appreciate how frequently your Power Lashes are actually blocked or otherwise mitigated in open world PvP. I also think you are trying to downplay the difference between 2 GCDs and 3 GCDs in PvP--it's huge. A single GCD is a BoL or a Hardened Ward that your opponent has time to cast. The fact is, Power Lash does significantly more damage than Flame Lash, procs a HoT, and is free. The more opportunity I have to cut out the Flame Lash and go straight to Power Lash, the better.

I'm not trying to replace Petrify, isn't that quite clear? I'm trying to help ZOS turn Stonefist into an offensive utility that would pair well with Power Lash. Petrify would remain the go-to CC--especially when paired with ultimates like Shooting Star.

Again you're applying the off balance after stone fist knocks down the target. You're not going to cc break in time to not eat the powerlash. That's not taking into account lag I'm saying that it's less then one second on animation time and you're going to eat it every time.

You're not going to CC break and stand up and bol... you're going to get knocked down, eat that flamelash then eat that power lash....

So why would I choose to use stone fist that again can be blocked and dodged via petrify?

(1) Stone Fist -> Knockdown + Off balance -> Power Lash = I'll have a much better chance of landing the Power Lash because the off balance occurs at the same moment that the target is knocked down, so while my opponent is in the process of breaking free, I'm already in the Power Lash animation. Secondly, this combination only charges me the cost of Stone Fist since Power Lash is free, creating a cheap an effective one-two combo.

(2) But if Stone Fist -> Knock Down -> Flash Lash -> Off Balance -> Power Lash = My opponent is breaking free during my Flame Lash animation, resulting in strong likelihood that the follow-up Power Lash is going to be mitigated somehow.

The beauty of my suggestion is that Petrify remains strong. If you don't think Stone Fist applying off balance works for you, by all means save the bar space and just use 15m Petrify.

The difference between the two is less then a second.

This would not make stonefist more viable, because again

It doesn't change the weakness of the ability....Now if it straight up applied offbalance it might be ok....

by the way its Flame Lash+Off Balance, it applies at the same time you hit the ability not afterward. Either way its still less then 1 second on the animation.

Kilandros · October 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

So, again, reduce the range on Stonefist not Petrify. Add off-balance effect to targets who are successfully knocked down by Stonefist and I promise you people will start using this ability.

10/10 hired

Stonefist should already allow you to power lash people.

Power lash basically pops when you flame lash a stunned or rooted target as flame lash itself does an off balance.

His change wouldn't change much in terms of power lash if that's what he's going for as it's already done via flame lash.

Not to mention the other morph of petrify does exactly that only it's bloody aoe

It allows for an immediate Power Lash instead of Flame Lash into Power Lash. It would actually be quite strong.

I'll expand a bit. The whole concept of "burst" is really centered around doing maximum damage over the shortest amount of time. Sorcerer has tremendous burst because it can land 3 different abilities at exactly the same time regardless of GCDs. Yes, hitting a stunned or rooted target with Flame Lash will proc off-balance allowing for a Power Lash. But that combination requires 3 ability usages and 3 GCDs. And by the time you're ready for the Power Lash, the target has broken free, is blocking, has shielded, healed, etc. Adding the off balance effect to targets that are stunned by Stonefist just makes for a much cleaner and more efficient burst combo, and because Power Lash can be the very next attack after the stun, it's more likely to land for full effect. And because Power Lash is free and hits harder, it would be an all around improvement to mDK combat efficiency.

I mean yea it would, but you're applying the off balance after the ability knocks down. If you get knocked down you're eating that power lash if it becomes before a flame lash or afterward. The 3 gcds you're talking about is actually just two. You knock down the target via stonefist you then flame lash which procs power lash which you then do power lash. In your case you'd go directly into power lash which will save you less then 1 second which is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

This also is completely ignoring the fact you can pickup the second morph of petrify that has a 50% chance to proc an aoe off balance on every target around the target when it breaks.

youre also not taking into account the other reason people choose petrify over stonefist in the first place

You can block and dodge stone fist... you cannot do that to petrify.

I've taken literally all of that into account. I don't think you fully appreciate how strong a Stone Giant directly into a Power Lash would actually be. Nor do I think you appreciate how frequently your Power Lashes are actually blocked or otherwise mitigated in open world PvP. I also think you are trying to downplay the difference between 2 GCDs and 3 GCDs in PvP--it's huge. A single GCD is a BoL or a Hardened Ward that your opponent has time to cast. The fact is, Power Lash does significantly more damage than Flame Lash, procs a HoT, and is free. The more opportunity I have to cut out the Flame Lash and go straight to Power Lash, the better.

I'm not trying to replace Petrify, isn't that quite clear? I'm trying to help ZOS turn Stonefist into an offensive utility that would pair well with Power Lash. Petrify would remain the go-to CC--especially when paired with ultimates like Shooting Star.

Again you're applying the off balance after stone fist knocks down the target. You're not going to cc break in time to not eat the powerlash. That's not taking into account lag I'm saying that it's less then one second on animation time and you're going to eat it every time.

You're not going to CC break and stand up and bol... you're going to get knocked down, eat that flamelash then eat that power lash....

So why would I choose to use stone fist that again can be blocked and dodged via petrify?

(1) Stone Fist -> Knockdown + Off balance -> Power Lash = I'll have a much better chance of landing the Power Lash because the off balance occurs at the same moment that the target is knocked down, so while my opponent is in the process of breaking free, I'm already in the Power Lash animation. Secondly, this combination only charges me the cost of Stone Fist since Power Lash is free, creating a cheap an effective one-two combo.

(2) But if Stone Fist -> Knock Down -> Flash Lash -> Off Balance -> Power Lash = My opponent is breaking free during my Flame Lash animation, resulting in strong likelihood that the follow-up Power Lash is going to be mitigated somehow.

The beauty of my suggestion is that Petrify remains strong. If you don't think Stone Fist applying off balance works for you, by all means save the bar space and just use 15m Petrify.

The difference between the two is less then a second.

This would not make stonefist more viable, because again

It doesn't change the weakness of the ability....Now if it straight up applied offbalance it might be ok....

1-2 seconds is huge in PvP. That you would downplay the timing aspect honestly makes me question your PvP experience. I hate being that guy on the forums but honestly it's kind of hard to look past when people pretend timing isn't everything in PvP.

It doesn't change the weakness of the ability? What are you even talking about? Are you not reading what I'm writing? Are you just arguing with me for arguments sake? You keep saying "it doesn't make it viable it doesn't make it viable" whereas I think I'm doing a pretty good job being patient and demonstrating that it would in fact become viable.

As I said above, I do not think you appreciate just how strong it would be to land a 4-5k crit Stone Giant followed by an immediately 5-7k crit Power Lash on a CC'd opponent. I've tried to demonstrate how strong it would be, but if I'm not getting through I'm not getting through.

NBrookus · October 2017

If you cast Stonefist at short range it's not weak. It's hard to mitigate because it does travel fast, and unlike javelin the damage is not dependant on distance travelled. (Excluding Shuffle... which we'll probably see a lot less of next patch if they stick to their guns about armor abilities.)

I use stonefist sometimes, but it's really niche in usefulness for a mDK. Kilandros' version of Stonefist would never leave my bar. 1 second seems like a long time typing this message, but is very quantifiable when playing. That's one whole second when a HoT is not ticking, an ally is not helping or CC is not being broken. My reflexes are pretty lousy and (lag permitting) I can CC break+ block in under a second. It would make a realty difference in mDK burst IMO.

Xsorus · October 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

So, again, reduce the range on Stonefist not Petrify. Add off-balance effect to targets who are successfully knocked down by Stonefist and I promise you people will start using this ability.

10/10 hired

Stonefist should already allow you to power lash people.

Power lash basically pops when you flame lash a stunned or rooted target as flame lash itself does an off balance.

His change wouldn't change much in terms of power lash if that's what he's going for as it's already done via flame lash.

Not to mention the other morph of petrify does exactly that only it's bloody aoe

It allows for an immediate Power Lash instead of Flame Lash into Power Lash. It would actually be quite strong.

I'll expand a bit. The whole concept of "burst" is really centered around doing maximum damage over the shortest amount of time. Sorcerer has tremendous burst because it can land 3 different abilities at exactly the same time regardless of GCDs. Yes, hitting a stunned or rooted target with Flame Lash will proc off-balance allowing for a Power Lash. But that combination requires 3 ability usages and 3 GCDs. And by the time you're ready for the Power Lash, the target has broken free, is blocking, has shielded, healed, etc. Adding the off balance effect to targets that are stunned by Stonefist just makes for a much cleaner and more efficient burst combo, and because Power Lash can be the very next attack after the stun, it's more likely to land for full effect. And because Power Lash is free and hits harder, it would be an all around improvement to mDK combat efficiency.

I mean yea it would, but you're applying the off balance after the ability knocks down. If you get knocked down you're eating that power lash if it becomes before a flame lash or afterward. The 3 gcds you're talking about is actually just two. You knock down the target via stonefist you then flame lash which procs power lash which you then do power lash. In your case you'd go directly into power lash which will save you less then 1 second which is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

This also is completely ignoring the fact you can pickup the second morph of petrify that has a 50% chance to proc an aoe off balance on every target around the target when it breaks.

youre also not taking into account the other reason people choose petrify over stonefist in the first place

You can block and dodge stone fist... you cannot do that to petrify.

I've taken literally all of that into account. I don't think you fully appreciate how strong a Stone Giant directly into a Power Lash would actually be. Nor do I think you appreciate how frequently your Power Lashes are actually blocked or otherwise mitigated in open world PvP. I also think you are trying to downplay the difference between 2 GCDs and 3 GCDs in PvP--it's huge. A single GCD is a BoL or a Hardened Ward that your opponent has time to cast. The fact is, Power Lash does significantly more damage than Flame Lash, procs a HoT, and is free. The more opportunity I have to cut out the Flame Lash and go straight to Power Lash, the better.

I'm not trying to replace Petrify, isn't that quite clear? I'm trying to help ZOS turn Stonefist into an offensive utility that would pair well with Power Lash. Petrify would remain the go-to CC--especially when paired with ultimates like Shooting Star.

Again you're applying the off balance after stone fist knocks down the target. You're not going to cc break in time to not eat the powerlash. That's not taking into account lag I'm saying that it's less then one second on animation time and you're going to eat it every time.

You're not going to CC break and stand up and bol... you're going to get knocked down, eat that flamelash then eat that power lash....

So why would I choose to use stone fist that again can be blocked and dodged via petrify?

(1) Stone Fist -> Knockdown + Off balance -> Power Lash = I'll have a much better chance of landing the Power Lash because the off balance occurs at the same moment that the target is knocked down, so while my opponent is in the process of breaking free, I'm already in the Power Lash animation. Secondly, this combination only charges me the cost of Stone Fist since Power Lash is free, creating a cheap an effective one-two combo.

(2) But if Stone Fist -> Knock Down -> Flash Lash -> Off Balance -> Power Lash = My opponent is breaking free during my Flame Lash animation, resulting in strong likelihood that the follow-up Power Lash is going to be mitigated somehow.

The beauty of my suggestion is that Petrify remains strong. If you don't think Stone Fist applying off balance works for you, by all means save the bar space and just use 15m Petrify.

The difference between the two is less then a second.

This would not make stonefist more viable, because again

It doesn't change the weakness of the ability....Now if it straight up applied offbalance it might be ok....

1-2 seconds is huge in PvP. That you would downplay the timing aspect honestly makes me question your PvP experience. I hate being that guy on the forums but honestly it's kind of hard to look past when people pretend timing isn't everything in PvP.

It doesn't change the weakness of the ability? What are you even talking about? Are you not reading what I'm writing? Are you just arguing with me for arguments sake? You keep saying "it doesn't make it viable it doesn't make it viable" whereas I think I'm doing a pretty good job being patient and demonstrating that it would in fact become viable.

As I said above, I do not think you appreciate just how strong it would be to land a 4-5k crit Stone Giant followed by an immediately 5-7k crit Power Lash on a CC'd opponent. I've tried to demonstrate how strong it would be, but if I'm not getting through I'm not getting through.

Less then a second is not 1-2 seconds.
And you're welcome to question my pvp experience all you want. I got videos backing up mine do you? And what part of the weakness of the ability are you not getting?

It can be blocked and dodged, you cannot block and dodge petrify....

That's a pretty simple concept... one has a counter the other does not.

Giving it a .65 animation timing advantage will not change that weakness.

Esp since you're tying the whole off balance factor to the CC in the first place.

Xsorus · October 2017

Also I can offer up a much better solution to making stonefist viable without trying to harp in on something petrify does better.

Here I'll even throw out two.

Make stonefist apply minor defile on the target; if you knock down the target it applies major defile. Instantly becomes different from petrify and is actually used by magicka and stamina builds.

Second suggestion; people who played DAOC would remember this. Make stonefist instead a buff shear. Takes off 1 buff from the target when casting it; if it knocks down the target two buffs.

Again instantly would become one of the most used dk abilities in the game and give it a different purpose then petrify.