PTS Update 16 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknights

ZOS_GinaBruno

This is the official feedback thread for Dragonknights. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the changes on the Shifting Standard, Cauterize, and Petrify abilities.

Kilandros

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for Dragonknights. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the changes on the Shifting Standard, Cauterize, and Petrify abilities.

Although the change to Cauterize allowing it to heal the caster is a step in the right direction, I still think the skill needs more of an overhaul. As long as Flames of Oblivion and Cauterize can't be controlled on what to target, they're just too unreliable. If they were made to be an AoE DoT and HoT, respectively, I think they would have greater usage across game modes.

NBrookus

I don't see enough of a differentiation now between stone fist and petrify.

Petrify:
Cheaper, shorter range.

Stone Fist:
More expensive, longer range, a little more damage. Can be blocked, dodged and reflected.

These are the kinds of differences appropriate to different morphs, not two entire skills.

Kilandros

Shifting Standard now costs 250 Ultimate. I think the broad consensus among the playerbase was that Dragonknight Standard and Standard of Might were too expensive at 250 Ultimate and needed to be brought down to 200.

ak_pvp

The cauterize morph is awful just god damn awful, remove it or make it a hurricane heal. Waiting 5s for a random heal is pathetic. Make both aoe with a ranged heal/damage burst every 5s. Adjust damage

Petrify, good, many dropped it because of dots breaking it before, but sorcs doesn't need another DK skill, so remove their copy.

Remove stonefist and make it something worth while, petrify ruins it. Stone giant: Rename this skill tectonics. Stuns for 1.5 sec, and then pulls. If it is broken, then it gives CC immunity and doesn't pull. This way it won't affect PvE, and allow DKs to have some utility in stopping height abusers. (People going up rocks with streak/horse and ganking people from safety.) However can be broken out of so it isn't OP.

Shifting seems good. Destro might top it because easy movable burst, but who knows.

Look into giving DKs an execute implosion but weaker looks tasty. Assist machine sux. Not necessary though.

Kilandros

NBrookus wrote: »

I don't see enough of a differentiation now between stone fist and petrify.

Petrify:
Cheaper, shorter range.

Stone Fist:
More expensive, longer range, a little more damage. Can be blocked, dodged and reflected.

These are the kinds of differences appropriate to different morphs, not two entire skills.

I have to agree with this. The redundancy between these two abilities is completely unnecessary. DKs just don't need a single target CC like Stone Fist while they have Fossilize.

Teridaxus

I think this change will be really annoying in duels.
First stonefist, then petrify, stonefist and so on.

Kilandros

Teridaxus wrote: »

I think this change will be really annoying in duels.
First stonefist, then petrify, stonefist and so on.

That's not how CC immunity works

Aerem

So Petrify and Stonefist are the same skill now.


Let's add that to the list of broken/pointless dk skills:
Chains
Wings
Stonefist
Cauterize
ash cloud(for pvp)

Kilandros

Why does DK need 2 ranged single-target CCs? @ZOS_GinaBruno

Vesper_BR

NBrookus wrote: »

I don't see enough of a differentiation now between stone fist and petrify.

Petrify:
Cheaper, shorter range.

Stone Fist:
More expensive, longer range, a little more damage. Can be blocked, dodged and reflected.

These are the kinds of differences appropriate to different morphs, not two entire skills.

One solution would be making stonefist a meele stun with an stamina Morph, or a decent gap closer... Chains aren't reliable since you have to wait the projectile travel to the target to be pulled. It's a game breaking in some situations when people are moving or the ping is high.

krathos

Lol sorc gets fossilize now? They already have an arguably better version of talons. There's really no reason to run a magdk in small group anymore to be honest.

Shifting changes are nice... except increasing the cost to 250? Wtf. Why? Wardens can already spam aoe major defile even without ult lmfao. Why is either morph 250?

Cauterize is still trash.

Vesper_BR

Great job with the fossilize change. It was awesome.. the shield it granted to Target was really annoying when trying to finish people and they don't take crits... BTW. What about giving us a decent gap closer or major expedition with dragon scales?

krathos

let's not forget the new Sorc fossilize has a 28 meter range and even after the cost reduction to fossilize it will be ~700 magicka cheaper.

Solariken

I agree with others that the Cauterize self-heal is a good change but the skill needs to be AoE and proc every 3 seconds instead of 5.

The petrify change is dumb, we already have a good stun with Stone Fist. Why not just leave it like it was but make the Shattering Rocks morph not break on DOTs.

Teridaxus

Kilandros wrote: »

Teridaxus wrote: »

I think this change will be really annoying in duels.
First stonefist, then petrify, stonefist and so on.

That's not how CC immunity works

Ups i missread, i thought petrify would apply a stun and knockdown which ignores any rules, including immunities.

Kilandros

@ZOS_GinaBruno I've had some time to test these changes on the PTS:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Ardent Flame
  • Cauterize (Inferno morph): Increased the speed of the projectile from this morph by approximately 50%, and the projectile can now target the casting Dragonknight.
    Developer Comments:
    We wanted to make this ability more universally useful in both group and solo play. Additionally, we sped up the projectile to minimize situations where allies would die before the life-saving heal arrived.

This feels more like a bug fix than a buff. This feature should have been included with the skill when it was conceived a couple of years ago. Nonetheless, the ability will fail to see widespread usage for a couple of reasons: First, the heal is not frequent enough to be reliable in either PvE or PvP. One heal cast every 5 seconds is completely arbitrary. When the heal procs, I might be at full health and not need it. On the other hand, I might be about to die and I'll still have 4 years until the next proc. That just isn't viable in either game mode. The heal needs to be a HoT like Regeneration if it's going to be viable. Second, I can't target who the heal goes to. Again, it's about reliability--the way this ability is designed I don't know who it's going to hit or if it's going to hit them when they need it. It's about as passive and boring an ability as there is. Pop it every 15 seconds and hope for the best. Maybe it heals someone who needs it, maybe it doesn't. No thanks. That's not how healing should work in this game. You guys can do better than that.

Solution: Make Cauterize an AoE HoT that procs on nearby allies and yourself (5-8m) every second for 15 seconds. Cap it at 3-6 targets. I guarantee you this ability will start seeing use in both PvE and PvP. If someone's low on health, I can move my DK butt next to them and provide some cover healing. That would be cool. That feels like what a DK would bring to the table.

• Earthen Heart
  • Petrify: This ability and its morphs are no longer 30-second disorients. Instead, they are 2.5 second stuns that cannot be blocked or dodged, and they can be placed on multiple targets. We also reduced the cost of this ability and its morphs by approximately 23%.
    Developer Comments:
    Because group gameplay in ESO is focused around large combat situations, having an entire crowd control ability that could be negated by an ally’s area of effect attack didn’t fit. We’ve maintained the current advantages of it being a disorient (such as going through Block and Roll Dodge), but now allow attacks against the target.
    
    We wanted to further differentiate Petrify from Stonefist because now, they both stun enemies. The cost reduction and lack of damage make Petrify more utility-focused, while Stonefist deals more damage but requires more Magicka.

The main issue here isn't just that these two abilities are redundant with each other (two ranged CC's, woo!), it's that one ability (Petrify) is strictly superior to the other (Stonefist). Neither ability will ever be used in competitive PvE except perhaps for learning in VMA, so I'm focusing on the PvP aspect. In PvP, when it comes to CCs, reliability is key--that's why Petrify has been king for so long. As long as my target doesn't have CC immunity and is in range, Petrify will land. Stonefist, on the other hand, sacrifices that clutch reliability for some extra damage. Damage that, honestly, I don't really need from my CC. I need my CC to CC. Stonefist just isn't worth the magicka costs against someone who dodges frequently or uses Miat's or permablocks. So why would I ever slot Stonefist? The few people that do are zerg surfers who spam it simply because it's the longest-ranged DK ability.

The Developers seem to think that there is some situation in which Stonefist is advantageous--there isn't. There's no need to "further differentiate" these abilities; one is good and the other is worse. No good PvPer will use Stonefist over Petrify.

Solution: Rework Stonefist. Petrify is in a good place and is the only ranged single-target CC that DK needs. There are so many defensive buffs in game that DK could really use right now (Major Evasion, Protection, Vitality, etc.), consider changing Stonefist to be a defensive/utility buff so DK can get some active defense back.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Shifting Standard (Dragonknight Standard morph): This morph now increases the duration of the standard to 25 seconds, and the standard can be shifted an unlimited amount of times. Shifting the standard no longer refreshes the duration, and the cost of this morph is now the same as the base ability.
  Developer Comments:
  The goal of this change is to make Shifting Standard easier to use. Previously, you had to time the ability perfectly to get the maximum effectiveness out of it, and shifting the standard early penalized the duration instead of adding utility.

At first glance this looks interesting, but like most DK "buffs" this will work out to be a nerf for people who used Shifting Standard. The first issue here is the increase in cost back to 250 Ultimate. Most experienced DKs agree that Dragonknight Standard has been overpriced for awhile now, and that the 200 Ult Shifting is where both morphs should be. The second issue is that a good DK will lose about 8 seconds of uptime on Standard. Less uptime and more cost = double nerf.

Now I agree with the Developers that it will be easier to use, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. But there's no reason to reduce the uptime AND increase the cost of an extremely niche Ultimate (PvE uses Standard of Might, PvP doesn't use stationary ults anymore lol).

Solution: Reduce the cost back down to 200 Ultimate. The loss of uptime is a good tradeoff for being able to re-position this multiple times.

Toc de Malsvi

Buff to Petrify is nice, but it's kinda a huge nerf for Stone Fist. Why would anyone slot Stone Fist after this change? Very few slotted it before, now its completely useless.

I agree with others here, problem with Cauterize is complete unreliability, unreliable heals are most often overheals. Which means they don't often actually HEAL, they just disappear.

NBrookus

Stonefist is/was useful in small group play as a longer ranged interrupt to help peel for an ally under pressure. Or to knock down someone trying to range execute you (hello radiant spammers.) Extend the range of Fossilize a little bit and the last reason to slot Stonefist vanishes. At that point if you need a long-range CC, destructive reach is available.

Just replace Stonefist with something else entirely. If sorcs can get our CC's, can we have their free crystal frag procs? How about an unpurgable DoT? An AoE damage skill? Or, and call me crazy here... an execute.

ak_pvp

Thats why i am partial to stonefist being the pull (Even a way to make it work in PvP fairly without hurting PvE, ZOS pls hire me.) petrify being a stun, and chains being changed to utility skill, maybe a pen buff, a better gapcloser (I don't really want gapclose on DKs) Maybe something to support the group like a debuff?

NBrookus

I don't think making stonefist a copy of chains is a good idea either.

*Fixing* chains would be a start. In theory the concept of chains being a choice between a pull CC and a gap closer empower is really good.

Kilandros

NBrookus wrote: »

I don't think making stonefist a copy of chains is a good idea either.

*Fixing* chains would be a start. In theory the concept of chains being a choice between a pull CC and a gap closer empower is really good.

I agree. The class doesn't need two versions of a gap closer, just like it doesn't need two versions of a single-target ranged CC.

What the class needs is some utility, like an execute, access to major evasion, etc.

Toc de Malsvi

Kilandros wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

I don't think making stonefist a copy of chains is a good idea either.

*Fixing* chains would be a start. In theory the concept of chains being a choice between a pull CC and a gap closer empower is really good.

I agree. The class doesn't need two versions of a gap closer, just like it doesn't need two versions of a single-target ranged CC.

What the class needs is some utility, like an execute, access to major evasion, etc.

That line in particular needs some draw for stamina to use its skills at all. Something besides just Igneous Shields, make me make a choice instead of pigeon holing me into one option.

NBrookus

On the other topics...

I like the change to Shifting Standard minus the utterly unneccessary cost increase for an ultimate that Warden gets as a spammable. So... still won't use it. Not worth 250 ultimate.

Cauterize is irrelevant, IMO, but I am sure there are DK healers who may want to chime in.

lucky_Sage

make the gap closer chains work like all other gap closers
cauterize and flames of oblivion should become a aoe and the crit buff should activate on cast then I would actually use it in pvp.

stone first(and morphs) the ability it sucks when you petrify. I would say turn it into a melee ability and give it a stam morph or make it a melee cleave stun make it look like a dragon tail or something

edit removed thing because I was going to change to something better but forgot

Pr0Skygon

After 3 hours of testing:

Petrify: I think the change is a right step in the right direction. However, just ask everyone else, this new Petrify makes Stone Fist look like a cheap knock off. If you're going to change Petrify, then also make some changes to Stone Fist. For example, make Stone Fist become a melee CC stamDK?

Cauterize: Still utterly useless in both PvE and PvP. Everything about this skill go against any helpful healing skill. The fact that you cannot fully control the skill is laughable, it's even worse than Mutagen. The cooldown is way too long. Templar's Healing Ritual with 1.5s delay is already deemed useless, let alone 5 secs. I either proc the heal at full health, or just die right before the heal proc. This skill is hands down the worst healing skill possible.

Shifting Standard: My favorite change of this morph, beside from the infinite shifting time, is how the skill now last for 25 freaking seconds. That's 10 more seconds. But here's the kicker. For PvE, Standard of Might will still be a better morph, since 12% more overall damage is a lot better than 10 seconds of standard. Also, you don't really need to re-locate your standard in PvE, since most bosses don't move that much. So Shifting Standard by default is for PvP. And for PvP, 250 is quite for this kind of ultimate. Another downside is that you don't gain ultimate while this skill is active, so that means 25 seconds without any ultimate regen, that's a dead flag for DK, which depends a lot on ultimate to survive.

Also, a little off topic, but please god damn fix the dragon scale. It's utterly worthless now. At least Warden's Shimmering Shield gives them Major Heroism, Dragon Scale on the other hand gives Minor Ward, which is too situational at best, and totally non existent at worst.

kojou

For stone fist...

Reduce the cost, change it to a fireball, and make it a ranged DoT for when DKs can't be in melee. Also give it a synergy while the DoT is active.

The only thing I can think of that DKs really lack is the ability to do decent DPS at range.

Toc de Malsvi

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

For stone fist...

Reduce the cost, change it to a fireball, and make it a ranged DoT for when DKs can't be in melee. Also give it a synergy while the DoT is active.

The only thing I can think of that DKs really lack is the ability to do decent DPS at range.

I would love a ranged DoT, but I want a morph that scales somewhat with max resource.

Also Flame doesn't match the tree theme.

I would suggest some sort of reliable or placeable heal or mitigation. Say a large area akin to domihaus set, but you get minor protection.

Different morphs could offer different buffs.

Rainphase

DK Shifting Standard Has been Nerfed into Oblivion with these changes..

I was in the process of theory Crafting a nice build with this ultimate for about a 75% up time on the ultimate speccing ultimate regen.

Elf Bane Set with Shifting Standard = 19 second up time x2 = 38 seconds -2 Seconds due to must recast before end. 36 second up time.

Now Elf bane set and Shifting Standard are both junk.

As much as I hate ranting or saying these things.. Why don't we just go back to 5 armor sets since everything that is outside the "meta builds" gets nerfed to the point where theory crafters cannot even use it.

OF the many builds I have made that are completely unconventional but did work for a comfortable fun play style... I think all but 2 have been nerfed in the last 6 months.

Saint_Bud

Mdk are still a lot of damage behinde stamdks or other stam classes in pve. There is absolut no reason to play them (also templar) at the moment because stamtoons can pull ~10k dps more. The skill how gets changed are absolut fine at the moment, it will help that Petrify will get trougt doge, but the problem is more that some playstyles can nearly permadoge and run with 100% major speedbuff uptime.

Cauterize (Inferno morph), when i would like to play a healar i would not take the Dk class, and when i would make such a stupid idea, i would not use this skill. Useing the restostaff skills just outperforme all dk group healing skills. Working on that skill is wasted time.

Shifting Standard (Dragonknight Standard morph), its not rally used at the time and the change is a nearf. Its more usefull that it can replaced more than once now, but the duration is now shorter, it coast more and will not give ressurces from the battleroar passive at replacement.

People ask for a working gabcloser on a mdk, working wings, falmes of oblivion to be target or an aoe as teh originall skill and to change the durration time to 20 sec (same with erupption) so its easyer to use in a mdk rotaion and a generall dps buff for mdk to cach up to the stam toons.

Sry for bad eng.

Wing

list of QoL fixes and improvements to make DK's happy?

-reduce cost on both standards to 200

-add an aoe taunt on magma armor activation and its morphs

-add major (or even minor) expedition to wings (or change the reflective plate morph to do it, spell resist on a skill that reflects a lot of spells is silly)

-remove stonefist CC and have it concuss the target and grant minor protection to the DK (they take 8% more, DK takes 8% less) have one morph reduce cost and the other heal the DK

-add minor physical resist and spell resist to cinder storm or minor evasion.

-make inferno a self buff aoe for an amount of time (10-15-20) have it tick to all enemies in the aoe more frequently. remove its crit bonuses, have one morph turn the damage into healing for all allies in the aoe, have the other morph apply the burning status effect to enemies damaged.

-make green dragon blood a stam morph.