PTS Update 16 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknights

Kilandros

The more I think about Shifting Standard being a PBAoE that you wear on your back, the more I really like the idea. Sure you can replace Shifting an unlimited number of times now, but doing so uses a GCD. If we could just shed the unnecessary re-placement in favor of just having it move with you, I could definitely see DKs becoming valuable in PvP groups again.

To expand: If I'm in a movement-heavy fight (the majority of PvP) and I drop Shifting, by the time the animation finishes I'm already outside of its radius. This means that in a fight with a lot of movement, you're basically just moving with your group pressing R over and over at the expense of using other abilities. That's very inefficient. Instead, let's just cut out the gimmick of being able to reposition this an unlimited number of times. If this ultimate simply moved with the DK, DKs could carve out a really nice group role for themselves which they haven't had since IC came out. It would give DK access to a mobile sustained DPS ultimate which also debuffs. Would be a nice change of pace in the ubiquitous Destro ult meta.

Bowser

theamazingx wrote: »

Vynn wrote: »

Btw, major expedition should be on wings, not chains. Chains needs a range buff, not a speed effect after the gap has been closed.

Couldn't agree more on this. Beyond balance, it just makes sense.

Hmm... maybe change that morph to increase the range of the next pull after a successful cast?

(or just a flat range increase would be great too)

Kanar

I'll just put my feedback like this: as a stamDK damage dealer, at most I ever have 4 class skills slotted across my 2 skill bars. 4 skills out of 12 possible. The CWC update won't change this. If that is the game design vision for this class than so be it, but I would personally like to be able to use more class skills and rely less on weapon skill lines.

Glory

Kanar wrote: »

I'll just put my feedback like this: as a stamDK damage dealer, at most I ever have 4 class skills slotted across my 2 skill bars. 4 skills out of 12 possible. The CWC update won't change this. If that is the game design vision for this class than so be it, but I would personally like to be able to use more class skills and rely less on weapon skill lines.

Interesting. Stam DK has potentially 8 useful skills that could be used:

1. Venomous Claw - stam morph damage
2. Noxious Breath -stam morph damage
3. Flames of Oblivion - stam flex morph damage
4. Take Flight - stam ultimate damage
5. Dragon Scale - magicka utility skill
6. Igneous Weapons - stam morph utility
7. Igenous Shield - magicka utility skill
8. Corrosive Armor - stam ultimate utility & damage

Not counting other things such as petrify (which I've seen stam DK's use), that's more stamina potential options than many other classes. With 3 damage oriented stamina morphs, a stamina based ultimate that is very strong, and several utility options as either magicka dumps or stamina sustain.

What are you looking for exactly? A spammable stamina morph? That has been a request from many classes (see stamina sorcerer, magicka sorcerer, etc.).

Kilandros

Kanar wrote: »

I'll just put my feedback like this: as a stamDK damage dealer, at most I ever have 4 class skills slotted across my 2 skill bars. 4 skills out of 12 possible. The CWC update won't change this. If that is the game design vision for this class than so be it, but I would personally like to be able to use more class skills and rely less on weapon skill lines.

Are you talking about PvE or PvP? In PvE, StamDK DD is numero uno. In PvP, the biggest issue with StamDK right now I think is sustain which took a massive nerf when Battle Roar returns were normalized.

Joy_Division

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DK used to be my favorite class to play. I only use it as an occasional PvE DPS class (and even that's tough now because it's a melee class that's outclassed by stam builds). I don't find them fun to play anymore.

• I *really* dislike the changes ZoS made to Inferno way back in the 1.6 patch. I am absolutely flabbergasted how anyone though stripping away what was unique and flavorful skill and then making into a generic DoT that performs the exact same function as Mage Light was something that would make the class more appealing to play. It's been nearly three years, but I still remember watching ESO live and hearing Wrobel say they were changing the ability because it wasn't used. THAT WAS WRONG. We used it all the time, it was a mainstay of DK DPS. I know the new Inferno is a good single target DPS skill, that's not the point. It's generic, boring, and a shadow of what it once was.
• I also really dislike how Standard has become so overshadowed by the Destro ultimate. I get it, in a stationary pure DPS rotation, I know Standard is a little more efficient, but your trials have moved away from those fights and 9 times out of 10 the destro ultiamte is better because it quickly burns down adds in addition to covering a much larger area. In PvP, even inexperienced players can easily step away from it and it's once unique contribution of applying major defile is now done by a spammable Warden skill that also heals allies. I know you're trying to make Shifting more appealing, but as long as Wardens exist, DK ulti regen is halted, and it costs 250 [wow!], there are much better options. If I'm a DPS, I'm dropping a destro or Leaping. If I'm a tank, I'm using Spellwall. This ultimate is obsolete and needs a makeover.
• I feel in PvP if I don't make a perma-block whip spam build, I can't compete. Reflective Scales, Cinderstorm, and dynamic ult regen were ways DKs could defend themselves without resorting to perma-block nonsense. Now scales was overnerfed and so many things aren't reflected anymore, the defensive functions of cinderstrom has been removed, and DKs are the worst ultiamte regeners mean go farm sturdy gear and get your sword and shield because otherwise you're toast. Yes the perma-block whip in your face build is solid, but I felt very frustrated moving away from that archetype because the DKs non block oriented defensive toolkit is largely gone.

I would really like it if the DKs morphs gave DKs one of two vectors to follow: either the swift, nimble, damage route (because dragons are this too!) or the rugged, stand their ground, tough as Earth route. It would not only make for more options but get rid of a lot of the perma-block troll builds in cyrodiil.

As far as the changes for update 16, what @Glory wrote covers most of what I think needs to be said. I'll add:

• Cauterize is better, sure, but it's hard to use a precious bar slot on a heal I can't control. Make it (and the Inferno morph) AoE as it once was and I would prefer it perform a different buff than what any class can get from the Mage's Guild or a potion do DKs can be a little unique.
• Shitting is easier to use. It's still outclassed by alternative and way too expensive for what it does.
• Petrify was already a strong skill and it's better. Nothing much to add except I agree with the other posters who feel the Stonefist is a clear lesser option and ought to be reworked.

Speak for yourself! I find it easier to fight when my trousers aren't round my ankles

Haha

Good feedback @Anne_Firehawk

NBrookus

Sleep724 wrote: »

Had an idea for a shifting standard rework. Have the standard on the players back, like the sewer bosses do and grant a 15-20% damage reduction and minor heroism to allied players within a 10 meter circle of you. It could be like soldiers on a battlefield following a banner into battle with high morale. Could also be a good defense against destro ult groups.

I really like this idea.

lucky_Sage

NBrookus wrote: »

Sleep724 wrote: »

Had an idea for a shifting standard rework. Have the standard on the players back, like the sewer bosses do and grant a 15-20% damage reduction and minor heroism to allied players within a 10 meter circle of you. It could be like soldiers on a battlefield following a banner into battle with high morale. Could also be a good defense against destro ult groups.

I really like this idea.

I agree it doesn't have to be that buff but something unique
dks need something to help sustain since battle roar is so bad now more ult regen could help

Kanar

Glory wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

I'll just put my feedback like this: as a stamDK damage dealer, at most I ever have 4 class skills slotted across my 2 skill bars. 4 skills out of 12 possible. The CWC update won't change this. If that is the game design vision for this class than so be it, but I would personally like to be able to use more class skills and rely less on weapon skill lines.

Interesting. Stam DK has potentially 8 useful skills that could be used:

1. Venomous Claw - stam morph damage
2. Noxious Breath -stam morph damage
3. Flames of Oblivion - stam flex morph damage
4. Take Flight - stam ultimate damage
5. Dragon Scale - magicka utility skill
6. Igneous Weapons - stam morph utility
7. Igenous Shield - magicka utility skill
8. Corrosive Armor - stam ultimate utility & damage

Not counting other things such as petrify (which I've seen stam DK's use), that's more stamina potential options than many other classes. With 3 damage oriented stamina morphs, a stamina based ultimate that is very strong, and several utility options as either magicka dumps or stamina sustain.

What are you looking for exactly? A spammable stamina morph? That has been a request from many classes (see stamina sorcerer, magicka sorcerer, etc.).

1. Venomous Claw - stam morph damage - slotted pve and pvp
2. Noxious Breath -stam morph damage - situationally useful in pve, puncture is better in pvp
3. Flames of Oblivion - stam flex morph damage - useful pve for major savagery, damage is fire so suboptimal for its damage
4. Take Flight - stam ultimate damage - useless in pve, great in pvp
5. Dragon Scale - magicka utility skill - pretty much useless all around
6. Igneous Weapons - stam morph utility - this and molten both good
7. Igenous Shield - magicka utility skill - useless all around, those who say otherwise are stuck in 2016. Better off with green dragon blood->vigor if you're using it to buff your heal
8. Corrosive Armor - stam ultimate utility & damage - great for solo content like vma

Gee, thanks for listing all class skills a stamdk can use. I made my notes inline and perhaps you can figure out from there which 4 I would slot in pve group, pve solo and PvP.

You notice only two of those use stamina? With limited magicka pool at best one could make use of 2 magicka skills as a stam DPS, more likely just one.

Chains, whip, and stonefist all are no-brainers for a stamina morph, in the sense that it "makes sense." In fact I think all class skills should have 2 magicka and 2 stam morphs.

I_killed_Vivec

Kanar wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

I'll just put my feedback like this: as a stamDK damage dealer, at most I ever have 4 class skills slotted across my 2 skill bars. 4 skills out of 12 possible. The CWC update won't change this. If that is the game design vision for this class than so be it, but I would personally like to be able to use more class skills and rely less on weapon skill lines.

Interesting. Stam DK has potentially 8 useful skills that could be used:

1. Venomous Claw - stam morph damage
2. Noxious Breath -stam morph damage
3. Flames of Oblivion - stam flex morph damage
4. Take Flight - stam ultimate damage
5. Dragon Scale - magicka utility skill
6. Igneous Weapons - stam morph utility
7. Igenous Shield - magicka utility skill
8. Corrosive Armor - stam ultimate utility & damage

Not counting other things such as petrify (which I've seen stam DK's use), that's more stamina potential options than many other classes. With 3 damage oriented stamina morphs, a stamina based ultimate that is very strong, and several utility options as either magicka dumps or stamina sustain.

What are you looking for exactly? A spammable stamina morph? That has been a request from many classes (see stamina sorcerer, magicka sorcerer, etc.).

1. Venomous Claw - stam morph damage - slotted pve and pvp
2. Noxious Breath -stam morph damage - situationally useful in pve, puncture is better in pvp
3. Flames of Oblivion - stam flex morph damage - useful pve for major savagery, damage is fire so suboptimal for its damage
4. Take Flight - stam ultimate damage - useless in pve, great in pvp
5. Dragon Scale - magicka utility skill - pretty much useless all around
6. Igneous Weapons - stam morph utility - this and molten both good
7. Igenous Shield - magicka utility skill - useless all around, those who say otherwise are stuck in 2016. Better off with green dragon blood->vigor if you're using it to buff your heal
8. Corrosive Armor - stam ultimate utility & damage - great for solo content like vma

Gee, thanks for listing all class skills a stamdk can use. I made my notes inline and perhaps you can figure out from there which 4 I would slot in pve group, pve solo and PvP.

You notice only two of those use stamina? With limited magicka pool at best one could make use of 2 magicka skills as a stam DPS, more likely just one.

Chains, whip, and stonefist all are no-brainers for a stamina morph, in the sense that it "makes sense." In fact I think all class skills should have 2 magicka and 2 stam morphs.

Yes, it's par for the course that a non-StamDK would come here and say "look at all those great stam skills you have!", and point to 2 ultimates, 4 magica skills and only two stam skills.

Then you usually get the "but you can use wrecking blow/flurry/tornado/weapon-skill-of-the-moment" as if these are class skills and not weapons skills.

I've started experimenting with Flames of Oblivion, just to do something with the limited magica pool I have (and because Evil/Camo Hunter are rubbish now). I wanted to use the whip, but with a limited magica pool that costs too much and is so very weak.

Glory

Kanar wrote: »

Gee, thanks for listing all class skills a stamdk can use. I made my notes inline and perhaps you can figure out from there which 4 I would slot in pve group, pve solo and PvP.

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

I'll just put my feedback like this: as a stamDK damage dealer, at most I ever have 4 class skills slotted across my 2 skill bars. 4 skills out of 12 possible. The CWC update won't change this. If that is the game design vision for this class than so be it, but I would personally like to be able to use more class skills and rely less on weapon skill lines.

Interesting. Stam DK has potentially 8 useful skills that could be used:

1. Venomous Claw - stam morph damage
2. Noxious Breath -stam morph damage
3. Flames of Oblivion - stam flex morph damage
4. Take Flight - stam ultimate damage
5. Dragon Scale - magicka utility skill
6. Igneous Weapons - stam morph utility
7. Igenous Shield - magicka utility skill
8. Corrosive Armor - stam ultimate utility & damage

Not counting other things such as petrify (which I've seen stam DK's use), that's more stamina potential options than many other classes. With 3 damage oriented stamina morphs, a stamina based ultimate that is very strong, and several utility options as either magicka dumps or stamina sustain.

What are you looking for exactly? A spammable stamina morph? That has been a request from many classes (see stamina sorcerer, magicka sorcerer, etc.).

1. Venomous Claw - stam morph damage - slotted pve and pvp
2. Noxious Breath -stam morph damage - situationally useful in pve, puncture is better in pvp
3. Flames of Oblivion - stam flex morph damage - useful pve for major savagery, damage is fire so suboptimal for its damage
4. Take Flight - stam ultimate damage - useless in pve, great in pvp
5. Dragon Scale - magicka utility skill - pretty much useless all around
6. Igneous Weapons - stam morph utility - this and molten both good
7. Igenous Shield - magicka utility skill - useless all around, those who say otherwise are stuck in 2016. Better off with green dragon blood->vigor if you're using it to buff your heal
8. Corrosive Armor - stam ultimate utility & damage - great for solo content like vma

Gee, thanks for listing all class skills a stamdk can use. I made my notes inline and perhaps you can figure out from there which 4 I would slot in pve group, pve solo and PvP.

You notice only two of those use stamina? With limited magicka pool at best one could make use of 2 magicka skills as a stam DPS, more likely just one.

Chains, whip, and stonefist all are no-brainers for a stamina morph, in the sense that it "makes sense." In fact I think all class skills should have 2 magicka and 2 stam morphs.

Yes, it's par for the course that a non-StamDK would come here and say "look at all those great stam skills you have!", and point to 2 ultimates, 4 magica skills and only two stam skills.

Then you usually get the "but you can use wrecking blow/flurry/tornado/weapon-skill-of-the-moment" as if these are class skills and not weapons skills.

I've started experimenting with Flames of Oblivion, just to do something with the limited magica pool I have (and because Evil/Camo Hunter are rubbish now). I wanted to use the whip, but with a limited magica pool that costs too much and is so very weak.

Two of the best DoTs in the game for either stamina or magicka, probably the highest burst ultimate in the game for stamina or magicka, one of the tankiest specs for either stamina or magicka in PvE or PvP, a skill that gives Major Savagery as well as a DoT that scales off max stamina and weapon damage, good magicka dumps in your choice of Igneous/GDB/petrify/scales that not only do something beneficial but many return stamina as a byproduct, a passive that gives you Minor Brutality (which is not accessible from basically any other viable source in the game), access to decent weapon types that can supplement the DK toolkit instead of a Destro staff only which gives a laughable skillset...

But yeah, I'm just being par for the course.

Anyway, we're on the PTS forums, why don't you make suggestions of things you'd recommend. An example for you: "Stonefist is now redundant with Petrify. This is a great opportunity to make one of the morphs into stamina with a different effect."

I_killed_Vivec

Glory wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Gee, thanks for listing all class skills a stamdk can use. I made my notes inline and perhaps you can figure out from there which 4 I would slot in pve group, pve solo and PvP.

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

I'll just put my feedback like this: as a stamDK damage dealer, at most I ever have 4 class skills slotted across my 2 skill bars. 4 skills out of 12 possible. The CWC update won't change this. If that is the game design vision for this class than so be it, but I would personally like to be able to use more class skills and rely less on weapon skill lines.

Interesting. Stam DK has potentially 8 useful skills that could be used:

1. Venomous Claw - stam morph damage
2. Noxious Breath -stam morph damage
3. Flames of Oblivion - stam flex morph damage
4. Take Flight - stam ultimate damage
5. Dragon Scale - magicka utility skill
6. Igneous Weapons - stam morph utility
7. Igenous Shield - magicka utility skill
8. Corrosive Armor - stam ultimate utility & damage

Not counting other things such as petrify (which I've seen stam DK's use), that's more stamina potential options than many other classes. With 3 damage oriented stamina morphs, a stamina based ultimate that is very strong, and several utility options as either magicka dumps or stamina sustain.

What are you looking for exactly? A spammable stamina morph? That has been a request from many classes (see stamina sorcerer, magicka sorcerer, etc.).

1. Venomous Claw - stam morph damage - slotted pve and pvp
2. Noxious Breath -stam morph damage - situationally useful in pve, puncture is better in pvp
3. Flames of Oblivion - stam flex morph damage - useful pve for major savagery, damage is fire so suboptimal for its damage
4. Take Flight - stam ultimate damage - useless in pve, great in pvp
5. Dragon Scale - magicka utility skill - pretty much useless all around
6. Igneous Weapons - stam morph utility - this and molten both good
7. Igenous Shield - magicka utility skill - useless all around, those who say otherwise are stuck in 2016. Better off with green dragon blood->vigor if you're using it to buff your heal
8. Corrosive Armor - stam ultimate utility & damage - great for solo content like vma

Gee, thanks for listing all class skills a stamdk can use. I made my notes inline and perhaps you can figure out from there which 4 I would slot in pve group, pve solo and PvP.

You notice only two of those use stamina? With limited magicka pool at best one could make use of 2 magicka skills as a stam DPS, more likely just one.

Chains, whip, and stonefist all are no-brainers for a stamina morph, in the sense that it "makes sense." In fact I think all class skills should have 2 magicka and 2 stam morphs.

Yes, it's par for the course that a non-StamDK would come here and say "look at all those great stam skills you have!", and point to 2 ultimates, 4 magica skills and only two stam skills.

Then you usually get the "but you can use wrecking blow/flurry/tornado/weapon-skill-of-the-moment" as if these are class skills and not weapons skills.

I've started experimenting with Flames of Oblivion, just to do something with the limited magica pool I have (and because Evil/Camo Hunter are rubbish now). I wanted to use the whip, but with a limited magica pool that costs too much and is so very weak.

Two of the best DoTs in the game for either stamina or magicka, probably the highest burst ultimate in the game for stamina or magicka, one of the tankiest specs for either stamina or magicka in PvE or PvP, a skill that gives Major Savagery as well as a DoT that scales off max stamina and weapon damage, good magicka dumps in your choice of Igneous/GDB/petrify/scales that not only do something beneficial but many return stamina as a byproduct, a passive that gives you Minor Brutality (which is not accessible from basically any other viable source in the game), access to decent weapon types that can supplement the DK toolkit instead of a Destro staff only which gives a laughable skillset...

But yeah, I'm just being par for the course.

Anyway, we're on the PTS forums, why don't you make suggestions of things you'd recommend. An example for you: "Stonefist is now redundant with Petrify. This is a great opportunity to make one of the morphs into stamina with a different effect."

But you are still missing the point!

You list two stam skills available for DK.

It doesn't matter if they are good, that isn't the argument. Don't bring ultimates or magica skills into the equations (and scales?) - those are horribly expensive for any DK, but particularly for a StamDK.

And don't mention weapon skills because they are available to all classes.

The point is that there are two stam skills, and it would be nice if there were more to give the StamDK more of a unique flavour.

BattleAxe

Proposed change for cauterize and flames of oblivion.


Cauterize: aoe heal make it toggle that also applies something like major vitality
Flames of oblivion: aoe toggle tht deals oblivion dmg but applies minor defile

BattleAxe

BattleAxe wrote: »

Proposed change for cauterize and flames of oblivion.


Cauterize: aoe heal make it toggle that also applies something like major vitality
Flames of oblivion: aoe toggle tht deals oblivion dmg but applies minor defile

Also have both morphs while slotted give major prophecy and savagery

lucky_Sage

BattleAxe wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Proposed change for cauterize and flames of oblivion.


Cauterize: aoe heal make it toggle that also applies something like major vitality
Flames of oblivion: aoe toggle tht deals oblivion dmg but applies minor defile

Also have both morphs while slotted give major prophecy and savagery

how about if the give it major crit buff its on activation not a toggle or any thing stupid

ak_pvp

Glory wrote: »

My thoughts regarding the Clockwork changes, and the current state of DK skills. I like a lot of the balance changes, particularly to Petrify!

Cauterize/Flames of Oblivion:

Kilandros wrote: »

Solution: Make Cauterize an AoE HoT that procs on nearby allies and yourself (5-8m) every second for 15 seconds. Cap it at 3-6 targets. I guarantee you this ability will start seeing use in both PvE and PvP. If someone's low on health, I can move my DK butt next to them and provide some cover healing. That would be cool. That feels like what a DK would bring to the table.

I agree with the above, I think a HoT that is reliable is important. A HoT/DoT for Cauterize/FoO every 1-2 seconds for your group within a radius (although I believe that the radius should be more around 8-10m if it is a smaller HoT) would improve the skill significantly. It is frustrating to use a skill that you literally have no control of after you activate it, and knowing that something consistent will happen instead of a weird mechanic would be great.

Petrify/Stonefist:

Kilandros wrote: »

The main issue here isn't just that these two abilities are redundant with each other (two ranged CC's, woo!), it's that one ability (Petrify) is strictly superior to the other (Stonefist). Neither ability will ever be used in competitive PvE except perhaps for learning in VMA, so I'm focusing on the PvP aspect. In PvP, when it comes to CCs, reliability is key--that's why Petrify has been king for so long. As long as my target doesn't have CC immunity and is in range, Petrify will land. Stonefist, on the other hand, sacrifices that clutch reliability for some extra damage. Damage that, honestly, I don't really need from my CC. I need my CC to CC. Stonefist just isn't worth the magicka costs against someone who dodges frequently or uses Miat's or permablocks. So why would I ever slot Stonefist? The few people that do are zerg surfers who spam it simply because it's the longest-ranged DK ability.

The Developers seem to think that there is some situation in which Stonefist is advantageous--there isn't. There's no need to "further differentiate" these abilities; one is good and the other is worse. No good PvPer will use Stonefist over Petrify.

Solution: Rework Stonefist. Petrify is in a good place and is the only ranged single-target CC that DK needs. There are so many defensive buffs in game that DK could really use right now (Major Evasion, Protection, Vitality, etc.), consider changing Stonefist to be a defensive/utility buff so DK can get some active defense back.

I generally agree that both skills are redundant. I prefer the Clockwork City updated version of Petrify over Stonefist (live Petrify is annoying often because it's free CC immunity). I think reworking the skill would be a great option. I don't think anyone uses the heal version due to its lack of reliability.

My concise thoughts would be: great change to Petrify! Now make Stone Fist something different, DKs would love access to one of the Buffs Kilandros mentions above, and possibly enjoy an entirely new rework of the skill itself (Stone Giant as a ground pound?!).

Shifting Standard:

Kilandros wrote: »

Solution: Reduce the cost back down to 200 Ultimate. The loss of uptime is a good tradeoff for being able to re-position this multiple times.

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Shifting Standard: My favorite change of this morph, beside from the infinite shifting time, is how the skill now last for 25 freaking seconds. That's 10 more seconds. But here's the kicker. For PvE, Standard of Might will still be a better morph, since 12% more overall damage is a lot better than 10 seconds of standard. Also, you don't really need to re-locate your standard in PvE, since most bosses don't move that much. So Shifting Standard by default is for PvP. And for PvP, 250 is quite for this kind of ultimate. Another downside is that you don't gain ultimate while this skill is active, so that means 25 seconds without any ultimate regen, that's a dead flag for DK, which depends a lot on ultimate to survive.

At this point in the meta I don't see there even being a place for this skill. Not preferred in PvE, in PvP it now costs more for the benefit of having to use a GCD to change the place of it.
Here is an overall analysis/comparison:

• It does awful damage. Eye of the Storm is significantly better in dealing damage.
• It costs 250 ultimate for a ground placed AoE ultimate. Compare this to Sleet Storm: player casted, 200 cost, also gives Major Protection for all your allies. (Could also compare to EoTS).
• It's main benefit over other ultimates in the Major Defile AoE that can be dropped on the ground. You know what also does that? A skill on Warden that also heals your allies.
• As Pr0Skygon mentioned, you don't generate ultimate for this duration. What?

I think Shifting Standard needs a significant rework. I would say something appropriate would be putting the stand on your back (PBAoE) for the duration of SoM and significantly increasing the damage (less than EoTS but more closely matched to Sleet). Then people may benefit from using it. May.

Following are things I think should be looked into.
Other Skills

Dragon Scale

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Also, a little off topic, but please god damn fix the dragon scale. It's utterly worthless now. At least Warden's Shimmering Shield gives them Major Heroism, Dragon Scale on the other hand gives Minor Ward, which is too situational at best, and totally non existent at worst.

Agree with the above. Warden's Shimmering Shield is an example of how Dragon Scale should be. The cost of Dragon Scale is atrocious compared to the Warden's shield, not even considering the Magicka return on getting hit.
Analysis:

I'm not going to ask for Major Heroism or something on Dragon Scale, etc. I just want everyone to acknowledge the fact that Dragon Scale cost is significantly worse than Crystallized Shield. Not even considering duration, access to Major Heroism, etc..

I'd propose any combination of: decreasing cost, increasing duration, adding more potent secondary effects, etc.

Ash Cloud
No major data to support this opinion, but I rarely see this skill being used outside of PvE DPS (Eruption). I would suggest giving something slightly more potent to Cinder Storm. Perhaps a significantly larger AoE or something? Just a thought!

Cheers.

All of this^^

I was personally thinking to combine stone giant and chains for an earth based pull. Where it'd stun for 1.5/2s and then pull. If not broken, then no CC immunity, if broken then doesn't pull, and grants CC immunity. So in PvE it can be used multiple times with no immunity canceling out the stun time. In PvP at the moment it does nothing but grant the opponent free immunity, now they will have the option, if not blocking to escape the pull.

Also in my opinion moving the ground seems more akin to the class aesthetically than a random chain, and opens a slot for utility in the ardent flame line.

Gan Xing

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

I'll just put my feedback like this: as a stamDK damage dealer, at most I ever have 4 class skills slotted across my 2 skill bars. 4 skills out of 12 possible. The CWC update won't change this. If that is the game design vision for this class than so be it, but I would personally like to be able to use more class skills and rely less on weapon skill lines.

Interesting. Stam DK has potentially 8 useful skills that could be used:

1. Venomous Claw - stam morph damage
2. Noxious Breath -stam morph damage
3. Flames of Oblivion - stam flex morph damage
4. Take Flight - stam ultimate damage
5. Dragon Scale - magicka utility skill
6. Igneous Weapons - stam morph utility
7. Igenous Shield - magicka utility skill
8. Corrosive Armor - stam ultimate utility & damage

Not counting other things such as petrify (which I've seen stam DK's use), that's more stamina potential options than many other classes. With 3 damage oriented stamina morphs, a stamina based ultimate that is very strong, and several utility options as either magicka dumps or stamina sustain.

What are you looking for exactly? A spammable stamina morph? That has been a request from many classes (see stamina sorcerer, magicka sorcerer, etc.).

1. Venomous Claw - stam morph damage - slotted pve and pvp
2. Noxious Breath -stam morph damage - situationally useful in pve, puncture is better in pvp
3. Flames of Oblivion - stam flex morph damage - useful pve for major savagery, damage is fire so suboptimal for its damage
4. Take Flight - stam ultimate damage - useless in pve, great in pvp
5. Dragon Scale - magicka utility skill - pretty much useless all around
6. Igneous Weapons - stam morph utility - this and molten both good
7. Igenous Shield - magicka utility skill - useless all around, those who say otherwise are stuck in 2016. Better off with green dragon blood->vigor if you're using it to buff your heal
8. Corrosive Armor - stam ultimate utility & damage - great for solo content like vma

Gee, thanks for listing all class skills a stamdk can use. I made my notes inline and perhaps you can figure out from there which 4 I would slot in pve group, pve solo and PvP.

You notice only two of those use stamina? With limited magicka pool at best one could make use of 2 magicka skills as a stam DPS, more likely just one.

Chains, whip, and stonefist all are no-brainers for a stamina morph, in the sense that it "makes sense." In fact I think all class skills should have 2 magicka and 2 stam morphs.

Yes, it's par for the course that a non-StamDK would come here and say "look at all those great stam skills you have!", and point to 2 ultimates, 4 magica skills and only two stam skills.

Then you usually get the "but you can use wrecking blow/flurry/tornado/weapon-skill-of-the-moment" as if these are class skills and not weapons skills.

I've started experimenting with Flames of Oblivion, just to do something with the limited magica pool I have (and because Evil/Camo Hunter are rubbish now). I wanted to use the whip, but with a limited magica pool that costs too much and is so very weak.

@I_killed_Vivec I have a hybrid DK that is ok (not great, but she works) in PvP (her dps is *** in PvE bosses). I'm using Pelinial and Affliction (for a tad more burst) I have whip on my main bar along with Flames of Oblivion. I don't have amazing damage, but I've killed people with this setup.... She is fun, but hard.

Toc de Malsvi

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Gee, thanks for listing all class skills a stamdk can use. I made my notes inline and perhaps you can figure out from there which 4 I would slot in pve group, pve solo and PvP.

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

I'll just put my feedback like this: as a stamDK damage dealer, at most I ever have 4 class skills slotted across my 2 skill bars. 4 skills out of 12 possible. The CWC update won't change this. If that is the game design vision for this class than so be it, but I would personally like to be able to use more class skills and rely less on weapon skill lines.

Interesting. Stam DK has potentially 8 useful skills that could be used:

1. Venomous Claw - stam morph damage
2. Noxious Breath -stam morph damage
3. Flames of Oblivion - stam flex morph damage
4. Take Flight - stam ultimate damage
5. Dragon Scale - magicka utility skill
6. Igneous Weapons - stam morph utility
7. Igenous Shield - magicka utility skill
8. Corrosive Armor - stam ultimate utility & damage

Not counting other things such as petrify (which I've seen stam DK's use), that's more stamina potential options than many other classes. With 3 damage oriented stamina morphs, a stamina based ultimate that is very strong, and several utility options as either magicka dumps or stamina sustain.

What are you looking for exactly? A spammable stamina morph? That has been a request from many classes (see stamina sorcerer, magicka sorcerer, etc.).

1. Venomous Claw - stam morph damage - slotted pve and pvp
2. Noxious Breath -stam morph damage - situationally useful in pve, puncture is better in pvp
3. Flames of Oblivion - stam flex morph damage - useful pve for major savagery, damage is fire so suboptimal for its damage
4. Take Flight - stam ultimate damage - useless in pve, great in pvp
5. Dragon Scale - magicka utility skill - pretty much useless all around
6. Igneous Weapons - stam morph utility - this and molten both good
7. Igenous Shield - magicka utility skill - useless all around, those who say otherwise are stuck in 2016. Better off with green dragon blood->vigor if you're using it to buff your heal
8. Corrosive Armor - stam ultimate utility & damage - great for solo content like vma

Gee, thanks for listing all class skills a stamdk can use. I made my notes inline and perhaps you can figure out from there which 4 I would slot in pve group, pve solo and PvP.

You notice only two of those use stamina? With limited magicka pool at best one could make use of 2 magicka skills as a stam DPS, more likely just one.

Chains, whip, and stonefist all are no-brainers for a stamina morph, in the sense that it "makes sense." In fact I think all class skills should have 2 magicka and 2 stam morphs.

Yes, it's par for the course that a non-StamDK would come here and say "look at all those great stam skills you have!", and point to 2 ultimates, 4 magica skills and only two stam skills.

Then you usually get the "but you can use wrecking blow/flurry/tornado/weapon-skill-of-the-moment" as if these are class skills and not weapons skills.

I've started experimenting with Flames of Oblivion, just to do something with the limited magica pool I have (and because Evil/Camo Hunter are rubbish now). I wanted to use the whip, but with a limited magica pool that costs too much and is so very weak.

Two of the best DoTs in the game for either stamina or magicka, probably the highest burst ultimate in the game for stamina or magicka, one of the tankiest specs for either stamina or magicka in PvE or PvP, a skill that gives Major Savagery as well as a DoT that scales off max stamina and weapon damage, good magicka dumps in your choice of Igneous/GDB/petrify/scales that not only do something beneficial but many return stamina as a byproduct, a passive that gives you Minor Brutality (which is not accessible from basically any other viable source in the game), access to decent weapon types that can supplement the DK toolkit instead of a Destro staff only which gives a laughable skillset...

But yeah, I'm just being par for the course.

Anyway, we're on the PTS forums, why don't you make suggestions of things you'd recommend. An example for you: "Stonefist is now redundant with Petrify. This is a great opportunity to make one of the morphs into stamina with a different effect."

But you are still missing the point!

You list two stam skills available for DK.

It doesn't matter if they are good, that isn't the argument. Don't bring ultimates or magica skills into the equations (and scales?) - those are horribly expensive for any DK, but particularly for a StamDK.

And don't mention weapon skills because they are available to all classes.

The point is that there are two stam skills, and it would be nice if there were more to give the StamDK more of a unique flavour.

We had strong medium/heavy attacks... That was our flavor... Now our strong heavies are garbage...

My DK weeps for strong bow heavy attacks most of all... It wasn't even about ganking, I just didn't want to be forced to use Snipe to have anything that hits harder than a noodle.

Elsterchen

Kilandros wrote: »

Why does DK need 2 ranged single-target CCs? @ZOS_GinaBruno

Please send one of those over to us templars!

@ZOS_GinaBruno ... they don't need it !

Wikter_Bravo

Love for stam dk please

Kilandros

@ZOS_GinaBruno got any Dev feedback for us? Seems every DK wants Inferno and its morphs to be an AoE.

NBrookus

Elsterchen wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Why does DK need 2 ranged single-target CCs? @ZOS_GinaBruno

Please send one of those over to us templars!

@ZOS_GinaBruno ... they don't need it !

Stone Fist is pretty much the same skill as Javelin, except Stone Fist can't knock people off walls. With no working gap closer, mDKs really don't want to knock people away.

Imagine the QQ if Javelin and Stone Fist were undodgable. XD

lucky_Sage

change the dks the elder dragon passive to reduce cost by 3% for all dk abilities per draconic power sloted
stone first changed to
earthen charge charges to enemy and dealing x physical dmg
morph 1 now magma trail now cost magicka and deals flame dmg and causes target to take flame dmg over time for 5 sec
morph 2 shockwave now causes the charge to stun the target for 2 seconds

Toc de Malsvi

lucky_Sage wrote: »

change the dks the elder dragon passive to reduce cost by 3% for all dk abilities per draconic power sloted
stone first changed to
earthen charge charges to enemy and dealing x physical dmg
morph 1 now magma trail now cost magicka and deals flame dmg and causes target to take flame dmg over time for 5 sec
morph 2 shockwave now causes the charge to stun the target for 2 seconds

Already have a gap closer. Obviously it has issues, but changing another skill to a second gap closer that may or may not work isn't a good option. Realistically this would only benefit mag DKs, in ways that are completely unneeded.

A better gap closer doesn't increase Mag DK utility. If anything it will make mag DKs too strong, as they have virtually infinite heals with burning embers provided they can stay on top of a target. Which is already almost a guarantee due to petrify and talons.

Gap closer doesn't help mag DK for dealing with multiple opppnents either. It really only makes mag DKs insanely strong for locking down one target, which they already are great at.

ak_pvp

MagDK doesn't need a gap closer. MagDK needs utility and an execute. It needs an execute because unlike a spammable or a cc it can't be gained anywhere else. (I vote give DK implosion and replace sorcs with a dot+chance to stun, cripple/paralysis) would give sorcs pressure, and maintain DPS. Whilst giving DKs more use from dots to burn down and save resources vs the usual spam whip at low health to stop out healing.

I personally think that stonefist pull and chains changed completely to utility.

(Idea: Magma walk, leave a trail of magma where ever you walk which deals damage when stood on and snares enemies 70%)

lucky_Sage

ak_pvp wrote: »

MagDK doesn't need a gap closer. MagDK needs utility and an execute. It needs an execute because unlike a spammable or a cc it can't be gained anywhere else. (I vote give DK implosion and replace sorcs with a dot+chance to stun, cripple/paralysis) would give sorcs pressure, and maintain DPS. Whilst giving DKs more use from dots to burn down and save resources vs the usual spam whip at low health to stop out healing.

I personally think that stonefist pull and chains changed completely to utility.

(Idea: Magma walk, leave a trail of magma where ever you walk which deals damage when stood on and snares enemies 70%)

I doubt they will ever give dks a execute even they kind kind of need one for pvp

reiverx

Since I'm on PS4 I can't test anything but I really hope things change for the better, from a PVP point of view.

In the Vivec campaign on the NA server, there are three DKs in the top 50. That's pretty much how it is nowadays. Something needs to be done to make certain classes more desirable to play.

NyassaV

Kilandros wrote: »

The more I think about Shifting Standard being a PBAoE that you wear on your back, the more I really like the idea. Sure you can replace Shifting an unlimited number of times now, but doing so uses a GCD. If we could just shed the unnecessary re-placement in favor of just having it move with you, I could definitely see DKs becoming valuable in PvP groups again.

To expand: If I'm in a movement-heavy fight (the majority of PvP) and I drop Shifting, by the time the animation finishes I'm already outside of its radius. This means that in a fight with a lot of movement, you're basically just moving with your group pressing R over and over at the expense of using other abilities. That's very inefficient. Instead, let's just cut out the gimmick of being able to reposition this an unlimited number of times. If this ultimate simply moved with the DK, DKs could carve out a really nice group role for themselves which they haven't had since IC came out. It would give DK access to a mobile sustained DPS ultimate which also debuffs. Would be a nice change of pace in the ubiquitous Destro ult meta.

Bwahaha... 1v1 DKs are damn there the best. Ina group they act as very good CC tanks

Saint_Bud

Looked at teh changes on the pts.

Shifting Standart: It can have his place in pvp on a healing debuff build. It feels better to use as the old one and we can reg ultipoints while it is aktive. The high coast and the fact that its all about burst damage is a huge downside for the skill.

Cauterize: this can be usefull in open world pvp or a duell to stack a lot of healing skills that a dk have. but for winning damage will be better. For pve there are better options.

Petrify: The skill is good as befor, nothing to say.

I moast dislike the damage differant in pve from a mdk to a stam dk at the moment. As stamina players have no shields they should have more damage for a higher risk, but about 10k is to much. An easy way to close the gab will be to buff the damage of eruption and engulfing flames. Eruption is not used in pvp so it will not have downsides and engulfing flames is a very weak skill. A small damage buff would not make it to strong in pvp.

casparian

Some stamina Dragonknight PVP perspective:

For the past four months, the burning question whenever I play my stamDK (my first character, and still one of my favorite classes to play) has been: why not be a stamina Warden? Stamina Wardens possess virtually every tool in the stamDK kit, except with cheaper and more convenient access. Here's what I mean:

- Projectile defense: DKs have a 4-second defense (Reflective Scale) that can either reflect spells or grant a somewhat rare resistance buff, depending on morph. It costs 3780 magicka. Wardens have a 6-second or 3-projectile (whicever comes first) projectile defense that can grant Major Heroism and costs 2432 magicka. More importantly, it restores magicka on hit, paying for over half of its own cost. Why does a DK's reflect skill cost so much more than a Warden's? True, Reflective Scale has a benefit that Shimmering Shield doesn't (a truly damaging reflect), but it doesn't grant Major Heroism either. Face it, Reflective Scale is the same basic effect as Shimmering Shield but with equal or lesser utility at much greater cost. Why the greater cost? Solution: reduce Reflective Scale's cost by ~1K magicka.
- Major Mending: Now that my stamplar doesn't have Major Mending, it feels really good to be able to pop Igneous Shield and suddenly have an extremely potent Rally heal, especially since I usually run medium armor. The problem is that Igneous Shield is very expensive: 4050 magicka for a stamina DK is over 1/3 of my magicka pool. (Its great expense means it's difficult for this buff to be available at all when I need it most: in the midst of a long, drawn out fight when I'm hurting for resources.) There's an argument to be made that it should remain expensive, since it activates three powerful passive effects in addition to Major Mending. But the problem is that as a stamina DK, it's impossible to forget that a stamina Warden gets Major Mending attached to any heal at all times when they need it most, at no extra cost. It's great that Warden has such a strong passive, but it wildly outclasses DKs' access to Major Mending: I have to pay (a) a bar slot (b) a GCD (c) over 1/3 of my magicka pool in order to have a buff that Warden gets simply for using a heal when they need it most. Do the added benefits provided by the Earthen Heart passives really justify having to pay so much more for this buff than Warden does? Solution: reduce the cost of Igneous Shield.
- Major Expedition: Stamina Wardens get this buff (coupled with Minor Berserk!) whenever they want it, as long as they have the magicka for it. Stamina DKs get this only in situations when they are willing to gap close to an opponent (with Empowering Chains). Given that Major Expedition is most useful for stamina builds in PVP as an escape tool, this is a very awkward design from a stamDK perspective. If I'm using medium armor a bow in PVP, this isn't such a big deal, but many stamDKs use heavy armor and no bow (just like stamWards). StamWards aren't pigeon-holed into a single build and playstyle in order to gain non-awkward access to this buff.
- Major Fracture: StamDKs have this debuff attached to a very small DOT. StamWards have this debuff attached to enormous burst damage. Solution: buff the damage of Noxious Breath.
- Major Defile: DKs have Standard, which has the potential to be a strong skill in PVP: for 250 ultimate, we get a PBAOE that applies Major Defile. The problem is that, on PTS, this comes at the cost of disabling DKs' main sustain and survival tool (ult regen) for 25 seconds -- an eternity in PVP. No self buff or enemy debuff could possibly be worth disabling ult gain on a DK in PVP. It's especially tough to think about using this skill as a stam DK, since I know that if I just played my stam Warden, I could have an AOE Major Defile for paying only 3240 magicka instead of 250 ultimate, and without disabling my ult regen. Solution: allow ult regen while Shifting Standard is up. (Would this be strong? Yes. But it wouldn't be overpowered, as there will always be a viable defense against Standard: CC the DK and stay mobile. Besides, there's nothing wrong with enabling a strong counter to the current heal-and-block-and-block-and-heal meta.)
- Major Resolve and Major Ward: This is the one place where I think stamDKs come out ahead of stamwards. StamDKs get these buffs for significantly less cost than stamwards, and while we don't get Minor Protection with it the way stamwards do, we do get +12% healing received. I'm very happy with the balance of Spiked Armor vs. Frost Cloak -- this should be a model for how stamDKs' and stamwards' other analogous skills should be balanced against one another.
- Self-healing: StamDKs get Green Dragon Blood: a capped heal that grants two Major buffs I already have from my tri-pots, as well as Minor Vitality. The Vitality would be nice, except that I can't afford to cast GDB because it's so expensive and I already spent all my magicka on Igneous Shield and Reflective Scales. Stamwards get Soothing Spores, the most powerful stamina-based class self-heal in the game, which does not consume their precious magicka pool (on the contrary, it replenishes it) and which can also heal allies. GDB is just not worth comparing to Spores in any way. Solution: make GDB work similarly to its magicka morph, Coagulating Blood: have it scale off max stamina and weapon damage, instead of being capped at 33% of missing health. Get rid of Major Endurance and Fortitude. Alternative solution: have it stay capped at 33% of missing health (at least this could get me out of execute range), but dramatically reduce its cost.

I don't want stamina DKs and stamina Wardens to be exactly the same, and of course I acknowledge that stamina Wardens should have some advantages that stamina DKs don't have (and vice versa). But what I don't understand is why so many of the great tools in the stamina Warden toolkit are just cheaper, more effective versions of what stamina DKs have. It's high time that stam DK was brought up to the level of stam Warden.

TL;DR: Playing as a stamina Warden feels great because I get access to most of the great buffs and advantages that I do as a stamina DK, except as a Warden I get them at a significantly reduced cost and with increased ease of access. As it stands now, stamDK feels like a more expensive stamWard with some different animations slapped on.