PTS Update 16 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknights

Noisivid

ZOS_Wrobel wrote: »

We’d like to briefly touch on some feedback we’ve seen for this class. First, we’ve seen some of you mention that Petrify is more appealing than Stonefist since it’s more reliable. To help address this, we’ll be decreasing the melee range for Petrify so it covers a slightly smaller area – this will also make it slightly harder to apply to the enemy to make up for the increased power level of Petrify. We’ve also seen requests to improve some of the unpopular morphs such as Fragmented Shield, Reflective Plate, and Cinder Storm among others; we’ll take a look and see what we can do to improve these in the future.

We also understand many of you would like to see Inferno deal AoE damage. However, we feel Dragonknights have sufficient options with Ash Cloud, Dark Talons, Inhale, and Fiery Breath. Lastly, we’ve seen the feedback that Cauterize ticks too slowly while healing other low-health allies. We’re going to look into this more, but aren’t planning to make any changes at this time.

Thanks for taking the time to post your feedback. We appreciate it, and would love for you to keep the conversation going.

this has to be a joke right, @wrobel is going to nerf Petrify because it's not as bad as Stonefist?

oops eso precedent shows it's not a joke,

no more money from me, tired of trying to make this work

ak_pvp

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

So, again, reduce the range on Stonefist not Petrify. Add off-balance effect to targets who are successfully knocked down by Stonefist and I promise you people will start using this ability.

10/10 hired

Stonefist should already allow you to power lash people.

Power lash basically pops when you flame lash a stunned or rooted target as flame lash itself does an off balance.

His change wouldn't change much in terms of power lash if that's what he's going for as it's already done via flame lash.

Not to mention the other morph of petrify does exactly that only it's bloody aoe

It allows for an immediate Power Lash instead of Flame Lash into Power Lash. It would actually be quite strong.

I'll expand a bit. The whole concept of "burst" is really centered around doing maximum damage over the shortest amount of time. Sorcerer has tremendous burst because it can land 3 different abilities at exactly the same time regardless of GCDs. Yes, hitting a stunned or rooted target with Flame Lash will proc off-balance allowing for a Power Lash. But that combination requires 3 ability usages and 3 GCDs. And by the time you're ready for the Power Lash, the target has broken free, is blocking, has shielded, healed, etc. Adding the off balance effect to targets that are stunned by Stonefist just makes for a much cleaner and more efficient burst combo, and because Power Lash can be the very next attack after the stun, it's more likely to land for full effect. And because Power Lash is free and hits harder, it would be an all around improvement to mDK combat efficiency.

I mean yea it would, but you're applying the off balance after the ability knocks down. If you get knocked down you're eating that power lash if it becomes before a flame lash or afterward. The 3 gcds you're talking about is actually just two. You knock down the target via stonefist you then flame lash which procs power lash which you then do power lash. In your case you'd go directly into power lash which will save you less then 1 second which is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

This also is completely ignoring the fact you can pickup the second morph of petrify that has a 50% chance to proc an aoe off balance on every target around the target when it breaks.

youre also not taking into account the other reason people choose petrify over stonefist in the first place

You can block and dodge stone fist... you cannot do that to petrify.

I've taken literally all of that into account. I don't think you fully appreciate how strong a Stone Giant directly into a Power Lash would actually be. Nor do I think you appreciate how frequently your Power Lashes are actually blocked or otherwise mitigated in open world PvP. I also think you are trying to downplay the difference between 2 GCDs and 3 GCDs in PvP--it's huge. A single GCD is a BoL or a Hardened Ward that your opponent has time to cast. The fact is, Power Lash does significantly more damage than Flame Lash, procs a HoT, and is free. The more opportunity I have to cut out the Flame Lash and go straight to Power Lash, the better.

I'm not trying to replace Petrify, isn't that quite clear? I'm trying to help ZOS turn Stonefist into an offensive utility that would pair well with Power Lash. Petrify would remain the go-to CC--especially when paired with ultimates like Shooting Star.

Again you're applying the off balance after stone fist knocks down the target. You're not going to cc break in time to not eat the powerlash. That's not taking into account lag I'm saying that it's less then one second on animation time and you're going to eat it every time.

You're not going to CC break and stand up and bol... you're going to get knocked down, eat that flamelash then eat that power lash....

So why would I choose to use stone fist that again can be blocked and dodged via petrify?

(1) Stone Fist -> Knockdown + Off balance -> Power Lash = I'll have a much better chance of landing the Power Lash because the off balance occurs at the same moment that the target is knocked down, so while my opponent is in the process of breaking free, I'm already in the Power Lash animation. Secondly, this combination only charges me the cost of Stone Fist since Power Lash is free, creating a cheap an effective one-two combo.

(2) But if Stone Fist -> Knock Down -> Flash Lash -> Off Balance -> Power Lash = My opponent is breaking free during my Flame Lash animation, resulting in strong likelihood that the follow-up Power Lash is going to be mitigated somehow.

The beauty of my suggestion is that Petrify remains strong. If you don't think Stone Fist applying off balance works for you, by all means save the bar space and just use 15m Petrify.

The difference between the two is less then a second.

This would not make stonefist more viable, because again

It doesn't change the weakness of the ability....Now if it straight up applied offbalance it might be ok....

1-2 seconds is huge in PvP. That you would downplay the timing aspect honestly makes me question your PvP experience. I hate being that guy on the forums but honestly it's kind of hard to look past when people pretend timing isn't everything in PvP.

It doesn't change the weakness of the ability? What are you even talking about? Are you not reading what I'm writing? Are you just arguing with me for arguments sake? You keep saying "it doesn't make it viable it doesn't make it viable" whereas I think I'm doing a pretty good job being patient and demonstrating that it would in fact become viable.

As I said above, I do not think you appreciate just how strong it would be to land a 4-5k crit Stone Giant followed by an immediately 5-7k crit Power Lash on a CC'd opponent. I've tried to demonstrate how strong it would be, but if I'm not getting through I'm not getting through.

@Kilandros The only issue with that is its too similar to shattering rocks., which gives offbalance when broken. This might end up outclassing, or even being to generally similar to it. It should just be completely reworked.

Aquanova

With the 5 piece armor requisite for using armor skills I think SOS should give back the miss chance for eruption since we're the tanking class.

Kilandros

Xsorus wrote: »

Also I can offer up a much better solution to making stonefist viable without trying to harp in on something petrify does better.

Here I'll even throw out two.

Make stonefist apply minor defile on the target; if you knock down the target it applies major defile. Instantly becomes different from petrify and is actually used by magicka and stamina builds.

Second suggestion; people who played DAOC would remember this. Make stonefist instead a buff shear. Takes off 1 buff from the target when casting it; if it knocks down the target two buffs.

Again instantly would become one of the most used dk abilities in the game and give it a different purpose then petrify.

Dude, we've spent the last 2 weeks asking ZOS to rework Stonefist. Go back 5 pages and look at my posts where I compare the two abilities. The result? We got Petrify nerfed.

ZOS isn't going to retool the ability. I'd love for it to become an execute, but that isn't going to happen. My suggestion is a low-cost solution to the problem we're currently facing: That Stonefist sucks compared to Petrify and that ZOS isn't willing to spend development cost to re-work the ability.

I'd love for Stonefist to become some wildly OP ability like Major Defile on knockdown, but I'm trying to be realistic here. Apparently you're still stuck in the past of 2 weeks ago where we thought we had a shot at getting this ability changed. News Flash: Wrobel would rather nerf Petrify than change Stonefist.

Anyway, I'm done with this sideshow. I'm interesting in helping the class, not fighting with someone who is just being argumentative. My suggestion is out there.

scipionumatia

@ZOS_Wrobel
There's quite a few things, but Ill make it as short as I can

Stonefist should be boosted, not petrify nerfed. Make using stone fist a risk with greater reward. Some ideas I have would be:
Simply make stonefist knock enemy back (similar to Templar javelin)
Make stone fist give beserk on hit
Make stone fist deal additional damage to enemies under X health.
Also there should be stam and magika morphs so it appeals to both. With both morphs being mag, the stam dks only have the option of fossilize, now that range has been severely reduced. What are our options?

Add a Snare break to an existing dk skill. Igneous shield should get it imo. The skill is pretty weak now, shield is very small and major mending has been nerfed. With shuffle being only available to 5 medium users heavy armor stam dk are left with using efficient cleanse. Which I'm not strongly against, but I'd like to see more class abilities on my bars. Currently out of 12 ability slots, I'm running 4 class skills. (Pvp stam dk, sNb/2h)

Scale needs some love. I do like the morph that increases damage of the projectile reflected, that being said there is a ton of stuff that is not reflectable. I'd like to see it reflect javelin, crushing shock, and cliff racer. I know the cliff racer reflect is a touchy subject. It would also help if scales duration was increased and the max number of projectiles was removed entirely. The skill costs a lot and this is felt by both stam (who don't have a huge mag pool) and mag (who have bad sustain)

Green dragons blood should work more inline with coagulating. Basing the heal off weapon damage and max stam pool.

Reduce ulti cost of magma shell/corrosive. By a lot. Cut it In half. Templars have a 125 "heal everyone to max health and keeping everyone alive through the channel. Wardens have a 75 cost heal everyone in this area to max health ulti (this ones actually better not Only because of cost but because the caster can still fight while being healed.) dk should get a "keep me alive" low cost ulti as well, not even my whole team just me lol

There's more but these are my priority list

Toc de Malsvi

As a stam player primarily I can't afford to use skills like Stone Fist because there is a high probability that they won't stun the target(ie blocked or dodged). The magicka cost of the skill is far to high for something that can have zero effect quite often. Nerfing the range on Petrify doesn't really help the situation that the reward on Stone Fist is not very good versus the risk of it failing to hit.

Honestly this would be a great option for a stam morph as it cannot really improve stam dps and would lower the huge cost for stam builds. As far as concern about it costing stam and returning stam through the passive, how is that any different than: Draw Essence, Harness Magicka, or Siphoning Attacks which use magicka but return magicka?

Regardless the morph bonuses for Stone Fist should be improved as they do not justify the cost risk balance.

bottleofsyrup

ZOS_Wrobel wrote: »

We’d like to briefly touch on some feedback we’ve seen for this class. First, we’ve seen some of you mention that Petrify is more appealing than Stonefist since it’s more reliable. To help address this, we’ll be decreasing the melee range for Petrify so it covers a slightly smaller area – this will also make it slightly harder to apply to the enemy to make up for the increased power level of Petrify. We’ve also seen requests to improve some of the unpopular morphs such as Fragmented Shield, Reflective Plate, and Cinder Storm among others; we’ll take a look and see what we can do to improve these in the future.

We also understand many of you would like to see Inferno deal AoE damage. However, we feel Dragonknights have sufficient options with Ash Cloud, Dark Talons, Inhale, and Fiery Breath. Lastly, we’ve seen the feedback that Cauterize ticks too slowly while healing other low-health allies. We’re going to look into this more, but aren’t planning to make any changes at this time.

Thanks for taking the time to post your feedback. We appreciate it, and would love for you to keep the conversation going.

@ZOS_Wrobel Even with the increased power level of Petrify the differences when picking between Petrify and Stonefist are still going to be damage and range vs. a more powerful stun. There's no need to neuter Petrify's range so significantly, especially when DKs lack mobility as it is (and Chains doesn't count in its current, immensely buggy state).

GeorgeBlack

Wrobel. All that DKs need as a class is a stamina morph of Stone First (preferably Obsidian Shard. Stone Giant makes the character looks like he/she is being covered in poop).

Do not reduce the range of Fossilize and it's other morph. That won't make us want to use Stone first. This latest change would be an additional nerf to DKs

Vesper_BR

Great @Wrobbel !! You lose another huge fan of eso... Almost 3 years dedicated to my dk and you do that... 5 stars and 64M ap to nothing... To be a trash 5 stars just because you can't balance a game... why nerf a class and it's caracteristcs? Why nerf what made us mag dk a treat in PvP?

Thanks, you make my decision to leave eso for some time more easy....

Vesper_BR

Do what you must, MAKE THE FUV#@IN@G STONE FIST A STAM CC OR A GAP CLOSE!!! STOP DOING BAD THINGS AND DESTROYING THE DKS... I really don't know if u guys play the same game as me... I really dont...

Vesper_BR

And why chains are still a gap closer?
I don't understand...
Chains was meant to be used only to pull targets... Maybe one magicka utility morph and another Stam PvP oriented morph...

Make stone fist be our only gap closer, one mag morph and a other Stam Morph.

Vesper_BR

Templars have a reliable gap closer integrated with stun... That's what dks need.... Stam and mag dks...

PaixRomanus

Echoing some of the comments here, but stonefist would actually make a great candidate for a DK execute. The skill could be reworked into a magicka and stamina morph that deals x% more damage to enemies under x% health.

As a gap closer, maybe though I am not 100% certain if empowering chains can be used against a CC'd enemy. Either way it would be great to see some sort of improvements to this ability.

RandomName123

So they nerf Petrify range, and justify it in ESO live that this adds counterplay, and makes it risky.. but then they give sorcs their version of Petrify (which wasn't needed) and let them keep their 41m range with it, in PvP??

Petrify: Reduced the range of this ability and its morphs to 8 meters from 15 meters.
Developer Comments:
Spoiler

This change helps further differentiate the Petrify and Stonefist abilities, and makes it more risky for the Dragonknight to apply Petrify’s instant, unavoidable crowd control on an enemy.



from 3.2.0 - in regards to sorc changes buffs Rune Prison: This ability and its morphs are no longer 30-second disorients. Instead, they are 2.5-second stuns that cannot be blocked or dodged, and they can be placed on multiple targets.


Shouldn't that same logic apply to sorcs as well, make them come in to apply this? Also, Petrify and Stonefist are already differentiated in range on live as is. 15m vs 41m (in PvP).

Kilandros

Unbelievable

Toc de Malsvi

Kilandros wrote: »

Unbelievable

It would be if I hadn't been playing this game for 3 years.

Kilandros

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Unbelievable

It would be if I hadn't been playing this game for 3 years.

Touche.

Vesper_BR

I suggest again turning chains back to its original formula to pull enemies to the dk with of course adjusts and try to make stonefist one gap closer of the that dks could use with it's Stam and mag morphs.

scipionumatia

This is ridiculous

Vesper_BR

PaixRomanus wrote: »

Echoing some of the comments here, but stonefist would actually make a great candidate for a DK execute. The skill could be reworked into a magicka and stamina morph that deals x% more damage to enemies under x% health.

As a gap closer, maybe though I am not 100% certain if empowering chains can be used against a CC'd enemy. Either way it would be great to see some sort of improvements to this ability.

Any form of dk execute should come from ours dots... Not direct damage.

lucky_Sage

Vesper_BR wrote: »

PaixRomanus wrote: »

Echoing some of the comments here, but stonefist would actually make a great candidate for a DK execute. The skill could be reworked into a magicka and stamina morph that deals x% more damage to enemies under x% health.

As a gap closer, maybe though I am not 100% certain if empowering chains can be used against a CC'd enemy. Either way it would be great to see some sort of improvements to this ability.

Any form of dk execute should come from ours dots... Not direct damage.

what if theres a stam morph that's a filler
and a mag morph can be magma wave smashes the ground and does a wave magma in a cone in front of you and causes all players hit to be set off balance deals x dmg.

Vesper_BR

I just want make clear that English isn't my main language and sometimes I can't express myself like I wanted. But I have so many ideas and suggestions for what is wrong in dks, that maybe someday I make a bigger post.

But some of the problems we have are:

1) Need of an Dd spammable stamina based skill, Because with two handed upercut isn't reliable and I think that this skill wasn't made to be used like we do, as dual wield we don't have a Stam gap closer, and as a bow we don't have ranged stamina skills(like Wardens do), and finally s&b was made to tank not Dd.

2) Magica based gap closer integrated with stun or some sort off balance effect.
Our damage comes from dots and spammable meele skills, without ranged fossilize we will be kitted to hell. Chains as a gap closer is a error in concept and should be addressed. Don't make it a projectile. At least make it like others gap closers in the game. The way it is, we have some inconsistencies in large scale combats and mobile targets that get off range before the projectile hits. The idea of expedition and empower is cool but would be diserable to make targets off balance. Expedition could be given to reflective scales like explained below.

2) power lash should stun players like it do on mobs. Why this skills should perform different in pve and PvP? With it, fossilize would be our last resort in cc, and letting stonefist to became a Stam skill.

3) adjust our ardent flames passives, some of them are redundant and improves skills that should have these values integrated in the base. Why making us waste skill point to improve damage and duration of two or three ardent flame skills, when they could have these bonus by origin? Make class passives turn the class unique, passives should be caracteristcs of the class, like dks battle road and nb catalist. They should be what make each class unique.

4) without heavy armor using shuffle (amazing move zos), dks need to get improvement to their "unique" defensive playstile that i think is reflective scales.
Each class have it's defensive maneuvers. Sorc have surge, NBS cloak and blur, Templar have purge and we have reflective. But our skills lacks improvement, make it cost less and one of two choices:

A) extend the duration for 10s reflecting 5 projectiles or;
make it last 4s and reflect all projectiles.

And the Two morphs should:
A) últi regen for each projectile,
snare removal and major expedition.

5) make standard a pbaoe skill + major defile, delete the shifting morph and gives us one of the two choices:
A) major protection for the dk and minor for allies.
major vitality for the dk and minor mending for allies.

That's something of ideias I want to share. The more important is, as a class Stam dks are inexistent and not funcional. I propose to the devs to show us what vantages Stam dks have over any other stam class in PvP... I really don't see any.
Mag dks are awesome but still lacks mobility to be viable without block casting, we can't stand in light armor moving like heavy rocks.

Pls note that the majority of my thoughts are PvP oriented, as I'm a PvP player and in pve I will discuss later, since much of the pve Oriented skills aren't used in PvP.

Thanks and sry if I'm not understandable.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel
Pls at least just read what we say, I'm pretty sure that with 4k plus hours of playing as dks, I have a different point of view that could give u some insights.

Jjitsuboy98

Wrobel needs to go. Bring in someone decent.

Dragath

don't nerf petrify because stonefist isn't a good skill and then give mages the good version of petrify.
there are a lot of good suggestions here, and you should read them and respond.
@ZOS_Wrobel

amir412

Noisivid wrote: »

ZOS_Wrobel wrote: »

We’d like to briefly touch on some feedback we’ve seen for this class. First, we’ve seen some of you mention that Petrify is more appealing than Stonefist since it’s more reliable. To help address this, we’ll be decreasing the melee range for Petrify so it covers a slightly smaller area – this will also make it slightly harder to apply to the enemy to make up for the increased power level of Petrify. We’ve also seen requests to improve some of the unpopular morphs such as Fragmented Shield, Reflective Plate, and Cinder Storm among others; we’ll take a look and see what we can do to improve these in the future.

We also understand many of you would like to see Inferno deal AoE damage. However, we feel Dragonknights have sufficient options with Ash Cloud, Dark Talons, Inhale, and Fiery Breath. Lastly, we’ve seen the feedback that Cauterize ticks too slowly while healing other low-health allies. We’re going to look into this more, but aren’t planning to make any changes at this time.

Thanks for taking the time to post your feedback. We appreciate it, and would love for you to keep the conversation going.

this has to be a joke right, @wrobel is going to nerf Petrify because it's not as bad as Stonefist?

oops eso precedent shows it's not a joke,

no more money from me, tired of trying to make this work

Same here, not gonna bother funding this game.
Reached to a point u cant even PVP on the class as solo player.

kookster

I am seriously seriously concerned @ZOS_Wrobel for stamDK with the proposed changes to medium armor ability. The main reason being is snare removal. StamDK has no class ability to remove snares. So our only choices are now:

Forward Momentum:
Sadly since stamDK doesnt have a good stam heal, we are crutched using rally to heal. Thus making this ability almost unpickable, if you cant heal you die.

Purge:
You will be able to cast this once, maybe twice. Even with the efficient morph. This is unreliable for that very reason.

Retreating Maneuver:
Costs way too much, 8100 stam.. You cant rely on this for purging a snare unless you want to quickly be out of resources and then dead.

Mist Form:
You shouldn't be required to be a vampire to have access to snare removal. And it still has the same issue as Purge, it costs too much for a stam build.


And don't you dare suggest using the heavy armor ability. That skill is a joke. Seriously. Our class ability to get major ward/resolve is much better, and gives us 12% more healing. A 6 second immunity to CC is too short and useless. It's not a shield, it only prevents you from getting knocked over.

I put some other ideas/suggestions here if you want to read: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4539603/#Comment_4539603

Aquanova

These "Feedback" threads for DKs are a total waste of time. For the last 3+ years I've played this game only twice can I honestly say ZOS considered our feed back. Reverting Coagulating Blood to give a burst heal and changing Ferocious Leap to do fire damage. Nothing else has ever been considered.

Every update they take another piece of the DK kit and either nerf it to make playing the class that much more difficult or worst, give it to other classes or Weapon skill lines, and when we make objections to the changes they still implement them. It's a joke.

Update after update we've been handed nerfs and we gave feedback but not once has ZOS reconsidered them, NOT ONCE!

So why the *** do you (ZOS) even make an Official "Feedback" thread for DKs when your just gonna do your own thing anyways?

Like I said, it's all a waste of time, nothing ever changes.

Countcalorie

I give up on both zenimax and bethseda.there run by money hungry sleeze bags and complete utter stupids.

krathos

I really hope these changes are reverted at least.

Shifting standard is a flat out nerf. Potential duration is reduced, it takes a global cooldown to place, and now you can't generate ultimate while it's up... on a class that requires ultimate gen to sustain/survive. And it's cost is increased to 250.

Who cares about the healing morph of inferno. It's still way worse than even rapid regen.

You make a great change to fossilize, since it was silly to give the enemy a damage shield, thus absorbing that much damage of crit potential, only to give them free CC immunity afterwards (and a full 7s now after the changes a few patches ago too). But then you go and give the same thing to sorcs... only with a longer range (15m petrify, 28m rune prison)... then we plead with you to do something to make stonefist more appealing and your answer is to nerf petrify to 8m while keeping the new and improved rune prison 28m? What kind of sense does that make?

There's so much more you could do with the DK class but instead each patch we get our class watered down and we end up getting a net nerf in the end.

Please don't do this to us again. We're sorry for April 2014 - May 2015.

krathos

Revert the current changes.

Make inferno a pulsing pbaoe.

Fix chains, take off the empower, make it stun.

Give cinderstorm major evasion.

Give magdk implosion and take it away from sorcs (who have a very good execute).

Make stone fist deal high damage (similar to whip) but even greater damage (frag level damage) if they target is CC'd.