DeHei wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

I don't know what the equivalent to hard/challenge is in PVP, if there even is one.
But just getting AP by zerging and repairing walls is not challenging and should not reward these.

Not sure there is any real challenge in PVP like PVE has with Veteran HM Trials, maybe something like having a group of 12 people controlling all thingies in cyrodiil or something. But that will be boosted and exploited as well.

You need to understand that the biggest challenge to overcome for vet HM trials is getting 12 people together at the same time on multiple days a week who enjoy doing that content and are a little above average in their button pressing abilities.

There is nothing actually challenging in esos pve content apart from getting people who want to do it.

Are you claiming that Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj HM is not challenging? Are you claiming that Veteran Halls of Fabrication is not challenging?

Also have not you just claimed this entire time that one of the biggest problems you had with this reward system was that it was "Too hard for most guilds". I see PvP Guilds with multiple 24 man raid groups all the time, but yet you claim that they can't find 12 people do to a Trial that would grant them BiS Gear for PvP. Cause I mean what would be so hard, after all "There is nothing actually challenging in esos pve content apart from getting people who want to do it." So you should be able to do vet Asylum HM WITH EASE NOW RIGHT?! Cause its not "challenging", and its just hard getting people for it. But as said there are multiple PvP Guild with large raid groups and I bet they would love a chance to get this weapons.

Derra is right in that part, that trials just need training. When 12 guys could play like robots and could do exacly the same ever and ever again, so they would allways get nearly the same score ever and ever again. There are just few gamemechanics, which are lucky.
But that is the challange. Its not possible, that 12 guys play like robots. When you now compare it with PvP, there you cant win again and again allways with same tactic and you need to play much more tactically. Every situation need from you to react right, but you cant train situations. You will allways have a fight just 1 time. I like to do both, but in PvE its nothing more then training in my eyes.

IF IT NEEDS TRAINING THEN IT MEANS IT REQUIRES A SKILL, WHY ELSE WOULD YOU NEED TO TRAIN?! If it was not "challenging" then why would you need to practice. Just cause it doesn't require the same skill as in PvP doesn't mean that PvE is still less. Reacting to mechanics, adjusting to situation as the same time you try to keep a rotation, or keep people healed through tons of AoEs, Keeping the boss positioned correctly while taking huge hits and trying to buff and debuff. Its not easy. If it was then get your raid guilds and go into vHoF and one shot HM. There is a skill to it or you wouldn't have to practice.

What i mean, PvE contents are much easier to learn! Nobody said, that its skillless... for sure not, but with enough practise you can nearly do every trial like you drive your car -> brain-afk. Just special moments need your attention after doing a trial 100th times or more...

Still seems like you are very much so devaluing the effort and skill of those that do end game PvE content.

DPShiro wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

I don't know what the equivalent to hard/challenge is in PVP, if there even is one.
But just getting AP by zerging and repairing walls is not challenging and should not reward these.

Not sure there is any real challenge in PVP like PVE has with Veteran HM Trials, maybe something like having a group of 12 people controlling all thingies in cyrodiil or something. But that will be boosted and exploited as well.

You need to understand that the biggest challenge to overcome for vet HM trials is getting 12 people together at the same time on multiple days a week who enjoy doing that content and are a little above average in their button pressing abilities.

There is nothing actually challenging in esos pve content apart from getting people who want to do it.

Oh really?
So you are telling me that just getting whatever 12 people together and play for a few weeks you will get Tick-Tock Tormentor done?

If that's the case, are you saying only ~12 people in the world have time to play together since only one group has done it?

Haven´t touched pve since morrowind.

I have raided my fair share of vet mol HM before it got easier with one tamriel. Did it take time (a lot actually) to finally complete it? Yes.
Was it mechanically challenging that it made me think: I deserve a special reward for this! - Not at all. It was ages of learning mechanics (with changing roles/positions for multiple people) and then finally getting a run where nobody effed up.
The only one who actually had to work and whos accomplishments i hold the deepest respec for was the raid organisation of the raid lead.

paulsimonps wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

I don't know what the equivalent to hard/challenge is in PVP, if there even is one.
But just getting AP by zerging and repairing walls is not challenging and should not reward these.

Not sure there is any real challenge in PVP like PVE has with Veteran HM Trials, maybe something like having a group of 12 people controlling all thingies in cyrodiil or something. But that will be boosted and exploited as well.

You need to understand that the biggest challenge to overcome for vet HM trials is getting 12 people together at the same time on multiple days a week who enjoy doing that content and are a little above average in their button pressing abilities.

There is nothing actually challenging in esos pve content apart from getting people who want to do it.

Are you claiming that Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj HM is not challenging? Are you claiming that Veteran Halls of Fabrication is not challenging?

Also have not you just claimed this entire time that one of the biggest problems you had with this reward system was that it was "Too hard for most guilds". I see PvP Guilds with multiple 24 man raid groups all the time, but yet you claim that they can't find 12 people do to a Trial that would grant them BiS Gear for PvP. Cause I mean what would be so hard, after all "There is nothing actually challenging in esos pve content apart from getting people who want to do it." So you should be able to do vet Asylum HM WITH EASE NOW RIGHT?! Cause its not "challenging", and its just hard getting people for it. But as said there are multiple PvP Guild with large raid groups and I bet they would love a chance to get this weapons.

Yes. I don´t think vet hm mol is mechanically challenging for the individual player.

For me it will be hard to run because i have a maximum online time of ~30 to 60 minutes without breaks due to reallife obligations.
It´s hard finding a group if you have to constantly afk and can´t play in the evenings on a regular schedule.
Also i find it so freaking unenjoyable to the point where i rather just log out than doing any pve since morrowind.

I find the organisation for constant raiding hard. It also takes a lot of time (ideally in one session).
I don´t find the actual raiding -once this is done - hard at all.
HM raiding is in that regard the same as getting high pvp ranks. It requires an immense amount of time and dedication - with the additional requirement of having 11 people enjoying the same thing as you do. That´s what´s hard about it - imo.

Dymence wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

It's fine as it is.

I don't even like the fact that the normal mode actually drops the weapons.

Why do you feel 12man vet HM content should drop bis gear for pvp?

Why do you want pvp players to be forced in playing said content?

What could you / the game or just about anyone gain from forcing players to play content they don´t want because it´s geargating them?

Why is the title + disguise/skin no longer good enough as a vet HM reward?

Yeah, I'm certain that 1 second downtime on the applied buffs with an imperfect staff is going to make or break your play.

a 25% difference in uptime is a 25% difference and stays a 25% difference.
Saying this is insignificant is just the same as stating running full impen and a defending weapon for raiding is insignificant. We both know it isn´t - you just don´t want to admit it.
Which kinda proves my point.

You don´t answer any question but instead resort to a strawman argument. Well done.

Derra wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

I don't know what the equivalent to hard/challenge is in PVP, if there even is one.
But just getting AP by zerging and repairing walls is not challenging and should not reward these.

Not sure there is any real challenge in PVP like PVE has with Veteran HM Trials, maybe something like having a group of 12 people controlling all thingies in cyrodiil or something. But that will be boosted and exploited as well.

You need to understand that the biggest challenge to overcome for vet HM trials is getting 12 people together at the same time on multiple days a week who enjoy doing that content and are a little above average in their button pressing abilities.

There is nothing actually challenging in esos pve content apart from getting people who want to do it.

Oh really?
So you are telling me that just getting whatever 12 people together and play for a few weeks you will get Tick-Tock Tormentor done?

If that's the case, are you saying only ~12 people in the world have time to play together since only one group has done it?

Haven´t touched pve since morrowind.

I have raided my fair share of vet mol HM before it got easier with one tamriel. Did it take time (a lot actually) to finally complete it? Yes.
Was it mechanically challenging that it made me think: I deserve a special reward for this! - Not at all. It was ages of learning mechanics (with changing roles/positions for multiple people) and then finally getting a run where nobody effed up.
The only one who actually had to work and whos accomplishments i hold the deepest respec for was the raid organisation of the raid lead.

paulsimonps wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

I don't know what the equivalent to hard/challenge is in PVP, if there even is one.
But just getting AP by zerging and repairing walls is not challenging and should not reward these.

Not sure there is any real challenge in PVP like PVE has with Veteran HM Trials, maybe something like having a group of 12 people controlling all thingies in cyrodiil or something. But that will be boosted and exploited as well.

You need to understand that the biggest challenge to overcome for vet HM trials is getting 12 people together at the same time on multiple days a week who enjoy doing that content and are a little above average in their button pressing abilities.

There is nothing actually challenging in esos pve content apart from getting people who want to do it.

Are you claiming that Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj HM is not challenging? Are you claiming that Veteran Halls of Fabrication is not challenging?

Also have not you just claimed this entire time that one of the biggest problems you had with this reward system was that it was "Too hard for most guilds". I see PvP Guilds with multiple 24 man raid groups all the time, but yet you claim that they can't find 12 people do to a Trial that would grant them BiS Gear for PvP. Cause I mean what would be so hard, after all "There is nothing actually challenging in esos pve content apart from getting people who want to do it." So you should be able to do vet Asylum HM WITH EASE NOW RIGHT?! Cause its not "challenging", and its just hard getting people for it. But as said there are multiple PvP Guild with large raid groups and I bet they would love a chance to get this weapons.

Yes. I don´t think vet hm mol is mechanically challenging for the individual player.

For me it will be hard to run because i have a maximum online time of ~30 to 60 minutes without breaks due to reallife obligations.
It´s hard finding a group if you have to constantly afk and can´t play in the evenings on a regular schedule.
Also i find it so freaking unenjoyable to the point where i rather just log out than doing any pve since morrowind.

I find the organisation for constant raiding hard. It also takes a lot of time (ideally in one session).
I don´t find the actual raiding -once this is done - hard at all.
HM raiding is in that regard the same as getting high pvp ranks. It requires an immense amount of time and dedication - with the additional requirement of having 11 people enjoying the same thing as you do. That´s what´s hard about it - imo.

Dymence wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

It's fine as it is.

I don't even like the fact that the normal mode actually drops the weapons.

Why do you feel 12man vet HM content should drop bis gear for pvp?

Why do you want pvp players to be forced in playing said content?

What could you / the game or just about anyone gain from forcing players to play content they don´t want because it´s geargating them?

Why is the title + disguise/skin no longer good enough as a vet HM reward?

Yeah, I'm certain that 1 second downtime on the applied buffs with an imperfect staff is going to make or break your play.

a 25% difference in uptime is a 25% difference and stays a 25% difference.
Saying this is insignificant is just the same as stating running full impen and a defending weapon for raiding is insignificant. We both know it isn´t - you just don´t want to admit it.
Which kinda proves my point.

You don´t answer any question but instead resort to a strawman argument. Well done.

It's insignificant. You're pulling the 25% difference to make it seem significant.

PVP is about burst. You have 4 seconds to set up your burst, a 1 second downtime and then you have it up 4 seconds again.

Pulling *** like '25% difference' would be significant in a PVE environment only. And we both know it, but you don't want to admit it.

Which kinda proves my point.

Dymence wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

I don't know what the equivalent to hard/challenge is in PVP, if there even is one.
But just getting AP by zerging and repairing walls is not challenging and should not reward these.

Not sure there is any real challenge in PVP like PVE has with Veteran HM Trials, maybe something like having a group of 12 people controlling all thingies in cyrodiil or something. But that will be boosted and exploited as well.

You need to understand that the biggest challenge to overcome for vet HM trials is getting 12 people together at the same time on multiple days a week who enjoy doing that content and are a little above average in their button pressing abilities.

There is nothing actually challenging in esos pve content apart from getting people who want to do it.

Oh really?
So you are telling me that just getting whatever 12 people together and play for a few weeks you will get Tick-Tock Tormentor done?

If that's the case, are you saying only ~12 people in the world have time to play together since only one group has done it?

Haven´t touched pve since morrowind.

I have raided my fair share of vet mol HM before it got easier with one tamriel. Did it take time (a lot actually) to finally complete it? Yes.
Was it mechanically challenging that it made me think: I deserve a special reward for this! - Not at all. It was ages of learning mechanics (with changing roles/positions for multiple people) and then finally getting a run where nobody effed up.
The only one who actually had to work and whos accomplishments i hold the deepest respec for was the raid organisation of the raid lead.

paulsimonps wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

I don't know what the equivalent to hard/challenge is in PVP, if there even is one.
But just getting AP by zerging and repairing walls is not challenging and should not reward these.

Not sure there is any real challenge in PVP like PVE has with Veteran HM Trials, maybe something like having a group of 12 people controlling all thingies in cyrodiil or something. But that will be boosted and exploited as well.

You need to understand that the biggest challenge to overcome for vet HM trials is getting 12 people together at the same time on multiple days a week who enjoy doing that content and are a little above average in their button pressing abilities.

There is nothing actually challenging in esos pve content apart from getting people who want to do it.

Are you claiming that Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj HM is not challenging? Are you claiming that Veteran Halls of Fabrication is not challenging?

Also have not you just claimed this entire time that one of the biggest problems you had with this reward system was that it was "Too hard for most guilds". I see PvP Guilds with multiple 24 man raid groups all the time, but yet you claim that they can't find 12 people do to a Trial that would grant them BiS Gear for PvP. Cause I mean what would be so hard, after all "There is nothing actually challenging in esos pve content apart from getting people who want to do it." So you should be able to do vet Asylum HM WITH EASE NOW RIGHT?! Cause its not "challenging", and its just hard getting people for it. But as said there are multiple PvP Guild with large raid groups and I bet they would love a chance to get this weapons.

Yes. I don´t think vet hm mol is mechanically challenging for the individual player.

For me it will be hard to run because i have a maximum online time of ~30 to 60 minutes without breaks due to reallife obligations.
It´s hard finding a group if you have to constantly afk and can´t play in the evenings on a regular schedule.
Also i find it so freaking unenjoyable to the point where i rather just log out than doing any pve since morrowind.

I find the organisation for constant raiding hard. It also takes a lot of time (ideally in one session).
I don´t find the actual raiding -once this is done - hard at all.
HM raiding is in that regard the same as getting high pvp ranks. It requires an immense amount of time and dedication - with the additional requirement of having 11 people enjoying the same thing as you do. That´s what´s hard about it - imo.

Dymence wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

It's fine as it is.

I don't even like the fact that the normal mode actually drops the weapons.

Why do you feel 12man vet HM content should drop bis gear for pvp?

Why do you want pvp players to be forced in playing said content?

What could you / the game or just about anyone gain from forcing players to play content they don´t want because it´s geargating them?

Why is the title + disguise/skin no longer good enough as a vet HM reward?

Yeah, I'm certain that 1 second downtime on the applied buffs with an imperfect staff is going to make or break your play.

a 25% difference in uptime is a 25% difference and stays a 25% difference.
Saying this is insignificant is just the same as stating running full impen and a defending weapon for raiding is insignificant. We both know it isn´t - you just don´t want to admit it.
Which kinda proves my point.

You don´t answer any question but instead resort to a strawman argument. Well done.

It's insignificant. You're pulling the 25% difference to make it seem significant.

PVP is about burst. You have 4 seconds to set up your burst, a 1 second downtime and then you have it up 4 seconds again.

Pulling *** like '25% difference' would be significant in a PVE environment only. And we both know it, but you don't want to admit it.

Which kinda proves my point.

Still no question answered.

I´ll just say - 75% instead of 100% uptime on minor maim is pretty significant if you´re playing in a "burst environment" isnt it?

Also i´d rather not take advice about pvp from a player that i´ve literally only encountered when he tried to Xv1 me in sorc vs sorc and still has a 17:3 record of kills in my favor.

Derra wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

I don't know what the equivalent to hard/challenge is in PVP, if there even is one.
But just getting AP by zerging and repairing walls is not challenging and should not reward these.

Not sure there is any real challenge in PVP like PVE has with Veteran HM Trials, maybe something like having a group of 12 people controlling all thingies in cyrodiil or something. But that will be boosted and exploited as well.

You need to understand that the biggest challenge to overcome for vet HM trials is getting 12 people together at the same time on multiple days a week who enjoy doing that content and are a little above average in their button pressing abilities.

There is nothing actually challenging in esos pve content apart from getting people who want to do it.

Oh really?
So you are telling me that just getting whatever 12 people together and play for a few weeks you will get Tick-Tock Tormentor done?

If that's the case, are you saying only ~12 people in the world have time to play together since only one group has done it?

Haven´t touched pve since morrowind.

I have raided my fair share of vet mol HM before it got easier with one tamriel. Did it take time (a lot actually) to finally complete it? Yes.
Was it mechanically challenging that it made me think: I deserve a special reward for this! - Not at all. It was ages of learning mechanics (with changing roles/positions for multiple people) and then finally getting a run where nobody effed up.
The only one who actually had to work and whos accomplishments i hold the deepest respec for was the raid organisation of the raid lead.

paulsimonps wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

I don't know what the equivalent to hard/challenge is in PVP, if there even is one.
But just getting AP by zerging and repairing walls is not challenging and should not reward these.

Not sure there is any real challenge in PVP like PVE has with Veteran HM Trials, maybe something like having a group of 12 people controlling all thingies in cyrodiil or something. But that will be boosted and exploited as well.

You need to understand that the biggest challenge to overcome for vet HM trials is getting 12 people together at the same time on multiple days a week who enjoy doing that content and are a little above average in their button pressing abilities.

There is nothing actually challenging in esos pve content apart from getting people who want to do it.

Are you claiming that Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj HM is not challenging? Are you claiming that Veteran Halls of Fabrication is not challenging?

Also have not you just claimed this entire time that one of the biggest problems you had with this reward system was that it was "Too hard for most guilds". I see PvP Guilds with multiple 24 man raid groups all the time, but yet you claim that they can't find 12 people do to a Trial that would grant them BiS Gear for PvP. Cause I mean what would be so hard, after all "There is nothing actually challenging in esos pve content apart from getting people who want to do it." So you should be able to do vet Asylum HM WITH EASE NOW RIGHT?! Cause its not "challenging", and its just hard getting people for it. But as said there are multiple PvP Guild with large raid groups and I bet they would love a chance to get this weapons.

Yes. I don´t think vet hm mol is mechanically challenging for the individual player.

For me it will be hard to run because i have a maximum online time of ~30 to 60 minutes without breaks due to reallife obligations.
It´s hard finding a group if you have to constantly afk and can´t play in the evenings on a regular schedule.
Also i find it so freaking unenjoyable to the point where i rather just log out than doing any pve since morrowind.

I find the organisation for constant raiding hard. It also takes a lot of time (ideally in one session).
I don´t find the actual raiding -once this is done - hard at all.
HM raiding is in that regard the same as getting high pvp ranks. It requires an immense amount of time and dedication - with the additional requirement of having 11 people enjoying the same thing as you do. That´s what´s hard about it - imo.

Dymence wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

It's fine as it is.

I don't even like the fact that the normal mode actually drops the weapons.

Why do you feel 12man vet HM content should drop bis gear for pvp?

Why do you want pvp players to be forced in playing said content?

What could you / the game or just about anyone gain from forcing players to play content they don´t want because it´s geargating them?

Why is the title + disguise/skin no longer good enough as a vet HM reward?

Yeah, I'm certain that 1 second downtime on the applied buffs with an imperfect staff is going to make or break your play.

a 25% difference in uptime is a 25% difference and stays a 25% difference.
Saying this is insignificant is just the same as stating running full impen and a defending weapon for raiding is insignificant. We both know it isn´t - you just don´t want to admit it.
Which kinda proves my point.

You don´t answer any question but instead resort to a strawman argument. Well done.

It's insignificant. You're pulling the 25% difference to make it seem significant.

PVP is about burst. You have 4 seconds to set up your burst, a 1 second downtime and then you have it up 4 seconds again.

Pulling *** like '25% difference' would be significant in a PVE environment only. And we both know it, but you don't want to admit it.

Which kinda proves my point.

Still no question answered.

I´ll just say - 75% instead of 100% uptime on minor maim is pretty significant if you´re playing in a "burst environment" isnt it?

Also i´d rather not take advice about pvp from a player that i´ve literally only encountered when he tried to Xv1 me in sorc vs sorc and still has a 17:3 record of kills in my favor.

1 second of downtime on minor maim is not going to kill you. I'm sure you think higher of yourself after that salty comment.

The only thing the asylum staff does is GUARANTEE all 3 procs every 4 or 5 seconds. It does not mean your natural procs on force shock can't occur anymore. Considering the amount of times you're going to refresh the procs through RNG, 75% is not even close to realistic.

I've only ever encountered you in PVP whilst casually playing with friends without having anyone healing. While you're running around in an organized smallscale group with a dedicated healer. But you be proud of that 17:3 if it helps you downplay my arguments.

Derra wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

I don't know what the equivalent to hard/challenge is in PVP, if there even is one.
But just getting AP by zerging and repairing walls is not challenging and should not reward these.

Not sure there is any real challenge in PVP like PVE has with Veteran HM Trials, maybe something like having a group of 12 people controlling all thingies in cyrodiil or something. But that will be boosted and exploited as well.

You need to understand that the biggest challenge to overcome for vet HM trials is getting 12 people together at the same time on multiple days a week who enjoy doing that content and are a little above average in their button pressing abilities.

There is nothing actually challenging in esos pve content apart from getting people who want to do it.

Oh really?
So you are telling me that just getting whatever 12 people together and play for a few weeks you will get Tick-Tock Tormentor done?

If that's the case, are you saying only ~12 people in the world have time to play together since only one group has done it?

Haven´t touched pve since morrowind.

I have raided my fair share of vet mol HM before it got easier with one tamriel. Did it take time (a lot actually) to finally complete it? Yes.
Was it mechanically challenging that it made me think: I deserve a special reward for this! - Not at all. It was ages of learning mechanics (with changing roles/positions for multiple people) and then finally getting a run where nobody effed up.
The only one who actually had to work and whos accomplishments i hold the deepest respec for was the raid organisation of the raid lead.

paulsimonps wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

I don't know what the equivalent to hard/challenge is in PVP, if there even is one.
But just getting AP by zerging and repairing walls is not challenging and should not reward these.

Not sure there is any real challenge in PVP like PVE has with Veteran HM Trials, maybe something like having a group of 12 people controlling all thingies in cyrodiil or something. But that will be boosted and exploited as well.

You need to understand that the biggest challenge to overcome for vet HM trials is getting 12 people together at the same time on multiple days a week who enjoy doing that content and are a little above average in their button pressing abilities.

There is nothing actually challenging in esos pve content apart from getting people who want to do it.

Are you claiming that Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj HM is not challenging? Are you claiming that Veteran Halls of Fabrication is not challenging?

Also have not you just claimed this entire time that one of the biggest problems you had with this reward system was that it was "Too hard for most guilds". I see PvP Guilds with multiple 24 man raid groups all the time, but yet you claim that they can't find 12 people do to a Trial that would grant them BiS Gear for PvP. Cause I mean what would be so hard, after all "There is nothing actually challenging in esos pve content apart from getting people who want to do it." So you should be able to do vet Asylum HM WITH EASE NOW RIGHT?! Cause its not "challenging", and its just hard getting people for it. But as said there are multiple PvP Guild with large raid groups and I bet they would love a chance to get this weapons.

Yes. I don´t think vet hm mol is mechanically challenging for the individual player.

For me it will be hard to run because i have a maximum online time of ~30 to 60 minutes without breaks due to reallife obligations.
It´s hard finding a group if you have to constantly afk and can´t play in the evenings on a regular schedule.
Also i find it so freaking unenjoyable to the point where i rather just log out than doing any pve since morrowind.

I find the organisation for constant raiding hard. It also takes a lot of time (ideally in one session).
I don´t find the actual raiding -once this is done - hard at all.
HM raiding is in that regard the same as getting high pvp ranks. It requires an immense amount of time and dedication - with the additional requirement of having 11 people enjoying the same thing as you do. That´s what´s hard about it - imo.

Dymence wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

It's fine as it is.

I don't even like the fact that the normal mode actually drops the weapons.

Why do you feel 12man vet HM content should drop bis gear for pvp?

Why do you want pvp players to be forced in playing said content?

What could you / the game or just about anyone gain from forcing players to play content they don´t want because it´s geargating them?

Why is the title + disguise/skin no longer good enough as a vet HM reward?

Yeah, I'm certain that 1 second downtime on the applied buffs with an imperfect staff is going to make or break your play.

a 25% difference in uptime is a 25% difference and stays a 25% difference.
Saying this is insignificant is just the same as stating running full impen and a defending weapon for raiding is insignificant. We both know it isn´t - you just don´t want to admit it.
Which kinda proves my point.

You don´t answer any question but instead resort to a strawman argument. Well done.

It's insignificant. You're pulling the 25% difference to make it seem significant.

PVP is about burst. You have 4 seconds to set up your burst, a 1 second downtime and then you have it up 4 seconds again.

Pulling *** like '25% difference' would be significant in a PVE environment only. And we both know it, but you don't want to admit it.

Which kinda proves my point.

Still no question answered.

I´ll just say - 75% instead of 100% uptime on minor maim is pretty significant if you´re playing in a "burst environment" isnt it?

Also i´d rather not take advice about pvp from a player that i´ve literally only encountered when he tried to Xv1 me in sorc vs sorc and still has a 17:3 record of kills in my favor.

1 second of downtime on minor maim is not going to kill you. I'm sure you think higher of yourself after that salty comment.

The only thing the asylum staff does is GUARANTEE all 3 procs every 4 or 5 seconds. It does not mean your natural procs on force shock can't occur anymore. Considering the amount of times you're going to refresh the procs through RNG, 75% is not even close to realistic.

I've only ever encountered you in PVP whilst casually playing with friends without having anyone healing. While you're running around in an organized smallscale group with a dedicated healer. But you be proud of that 17:3 if it helps you downplay my arguments.

If i run in an organized group - i am the healer...
Most of the time i solo though. We havent played in regular groups since dec 2016 apart from both doubleXP events.

I do pvp quite a bit.
I do also say that the difference is significant for pvp (after having tested both staffs in duels on the pts). I got 60 to 70% uptime of elemental effects with imperfect and 80 to 90% with perfect (against a target not using shields or dodging a lot).

It´s not a gut feeling why i make those statements. I tested it on pts. I´m somewhat experienced in pvp and out of these two factors a draw my conclusions.
The most significant reason being that the 4s timer falls close to perfect with 3.5s curse timing while 5s does not. The subjective difference is even worse on sorc than it imay seem on paper - because the procc no longer falls exactly in your burst window every time.

If you were to tell me that the difference of imperfect to perfect was insignificant for pve - i´d be hard pressed to believe you because you´re probably more experienced there than i am.
I do think i´m experienced enough on the matter of pvp to make the statement that the difference is significant there.

Fair enough, if you say you've actually tested it on the PTS. I was under the impression that you were simply going off on a gut feeling and intimidating numbers.

But at this point, what would you have ZOS do about it? It's obvious they made the imperfect weapons just to throw a bone to the playerbase which is less dedicated to PVE. In the past they wouldn't even have done that. Looking at the current state of things, what would be your suggestion for change? Most PVP players still aren't going to be able to complete just the Veteran mode. Where are you supposed to draw the line?

Derra wrote: »

There are several from my perspective reasonable options:

1. Give perfect weapons in vet but not hardmode - give hardmode an additional title/mount/skin/polymorph as it used to be with other trials.
2. Deactivate any maelstrom/master/asylum setbonus in cyrodiil and make those trial content weapons only relevant in pve and keep drops as is.
3. Keep the drops as is but let imperfect weapons drop from top 10% leaderboard rewards and perfect weapons from top 2% leaderboard rewards (only of the 30 day campaigns to prevent farming in empty 7 days).

Imo all 3 are more desireable than the current situation.

not the leaderboard plz, with this RNG, one chance every month will be even harder than vet trial...
swords, greatswords, resto, different destro, shields, mace, axes 1 handed or 2 handed, etc...
even if you stand into the 2% for an entire year you have only 12 chance to have what you want
transmute will not change a sword into a staff

You really think that you could beat vMAW HM with any team as long as it was the same 12 ppl? How long would you estimate that that would take? Cause we were to talk the average player, then I would say years. I know of guilds, trial guilds, that have the same people and raid with each other every week that have trouble doing regular vet Craglorn Trials. But so you are saying that it will be easy for them to do vMAW HM?

As well you are talking about time again, and how its not all that hard as long as you have the people. You say you have 30-60min game time at a time max, well grats, the mini trial, the asylum, has a speed run time of 15min. You say that PvE Content is not difficult. Preform before hand and jump in, its so easy you will get it done in 15min first time I'm sure, cause, you know, its not difficult.

paulsimonps wrote: »

You really think that you could beat vMAW HM with any team as long as it was the same 12 ppl? How long would you estimate that that would take? Cause we were to talk the average player, then I would say years. I know of guilds, trial guilds, that have the same people and raid with each other every week that have trouble doing regular vet Craglorn Trials. But so you are saying that it will be easy for them to do vMAW HM?

As well you are talking about time again, and how its not all that hard as long as you have the people. You say you have 30-60min game time at a time max, well grats, the mini trial, the asylum, has a speed run time of 15min. You say that PvE Content is not difficult. Preform before hand and jump in, its so easy you will get it done in 15min first time I'm sure, cause, you know, its not difficult.

I play in a bubble. I fully admit that.
I´ve only ever pvped with well above average players and i´ve only ever pved with well above average players.
Given my peers in the game and in every other game i´ve played or the guild i´ve been in for 15 years now - given i get a group of those players they could beat the content.
I´ve never said average players i mentioned above average button pressing abilities.

I actually have no idea how good or bad the average player in pve is.

I also said i have no specific schedule which does not allow me to preform anything. Can´t preform if you don´t know when you can play eh.
But i´m sure you´re being intentionally misunderstanding my points because you´re actually afraid that someone is going to take away your new "shiny" that you can aquire through having massive amounts of time to invest in "challenging" pve content.

Derra wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

You really think that you could beat vMAW HM with any team as long as it was the same 12 ppl? How long would you estimate that that would take? Cause we were to talk the average player, then I would say years. I know of guilds, trial guilds, that have the same people and raid with each other every week that have trouble doing regular vet Craglorn Trials. But so you are saying that it will be easy for them to do vMAW HM?

As well you are talking about time again, and how its not all that hard as long as you have the people. You say you have 30-60min game time at a time max, well grats, the mini trial, the asylum, has a speed run time of 15min. You say that PvE Content is not difficult. Preform before hand and jump in, its so easy you will get it done in 15min first time I'm sure, cause, you know, its not difficult.

I play in a bubble. I fully admit that.
I´ve only ever pvped with well above average players and i´ve only ever pved with well above average players.
Given my peers in the game and in every other game i´ve played or the guild i´ve been in for 15 years now - given i get a group of those players they could beat the content.
I´ve never said average players i mentioned above average button pressing abilities.

I actually have no idea how good or bad the average player in pve is.

I also said i have no specific schedule which does not allow me to preform anything. Can´t preform if you don´t know when you can play eh.
But i´m sure you´re being intentionally misunderstanding my points because you´re actually afraid that someone is going to take away your new "shiny" that you can aquire through having massive amounts of time to invest in "challenging" pve content.

At this point in the thread I don't really care all that much on your views on the Asylum weapons, but you are however disrespecting the effort a lot of people put into PvE Content. You are claiming that there is no challenge in it, and the only difficulty is finding people. Which is not true, there are, as I've said, many guilds that spend countless hours together trying to be some of the harder content. They have same or almost the same group every week, yet still they can't beat it, cause, ITS CHALLENGING. And so you claim its easy, so doing vet Olms+2 should be no difficulty. But you also claim you don't have the time to put it, so make it easier for you to get the weapons you already claim was easy to obtain, cause you said PvE Content is not challenging. But since you can't put in the time, it needs to be easier still so that you can get it.

Derra wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

You really think that you could beat vMAW HM with any team as long as it was the same 12 ppl? How long would you estimate that that would take? Cause we were to talk the average player, then I would say years. I know of guilds, trial guilds, that have the same people and raid with each other every week that have trouble doing regular vet Craglorn Trials. But so you are saying that it will be easy for them to do vMAW HM?

As well you are talking about time again, and how its not all that hard as long as you have the people. You say you have 30-60min game time at a time max, well grats, the mini trial, the asylum, has a speed run time of 15min. You say that PvE Content is not difficult. Preform before hand and jump in, its so easy you will get it done in 15min first time I'm sure, cause, you know, its not difficult.

I play in a bubble. I fully admit that.
I´ve only ever pvped with well above average players and i´ve only ever pved with well above average players.
Given my peers in the game and in every other game i´ve played or the guild i´ve been in for 15 years now - given i get a group of those players they could beat the content.
I´ve never said average players i mentioned above average button pressing abilities.

I actually have no idea how good or bad the average player in pve is.

I also said i have no specific schedule which does not allow me to preform anything. Can´t preform if you don´t know when you can play eh.
But i´m sure you´re being intentionally misunderstanding my points because you´re actually afraid that someone is going to take away your new "shiny" that you can aquire through having massive amounts of time to invest in "challenging" pve content.

At this point in the thread I don't really care all that much on your views on the Asylum weapons, but you are however disrespecting the effort a lot of people put into PvE Content. You are claiming that there is no challenge in it, and the only difficulty is finding people. Which is not true, there are, as I've said, many guilds that spend countless hours together trying to be some of the harder content. They have same or almost the same group every week, yet still they can't beat it, cause, ITS CHALLENGING. And so you claim its easy, so doing vet Olms+2 should be no difficulty. But you also claim you don't have the time to put it, so make it easier for you to get the weapons you already claim was easy to obtain, cause you said PvE Content is not challenging. But since you can't put in the time, it needs to be easier still so that you can get it.

I´ve never claimed the weapon was easy to obtain. I´ve just said it´s not related to the contents difficulty (personal opinion) why it´s not easy to obtain. It´s perfectly outlined why it is NOT easy to obtain imo here:

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

PvE requires a lot more commitment than PvP.

To beat a HM trial, you typically need to practice with a group of 11 other players regularly for a few weeks. Just organzing something like that takes a ton of effort. It also requires that you find 11 other players with minimal IRL commitments (a young family, demanding work like consulting, graduate school, etc. are all impediments to being able to do this).

Getting good at PvP is a lot simpler as you can do it on your own time.

I'm saying this as someone who has thousands of hours played in PvP games (FPS and MOBAs). It's a lot harder to become good at PvE endgame than it is PvP simply due to the time commitment required. You can get good at PvP games on your own schedule. You can play a few hours a week, whenever you get a chance, and still reach a very high skill level. You can't do that in PvE.

Notice how basically nothing stated is directly related to the contents difficulty.


Actually i gave 3 options.
I´d like the weapons to be easier to obtain
Or make them completely irrelevant in pvp (what do you dislike about that proposal?)
Or make them obtainable via pvp (content where they´re relevant for - but getting top 2% is not easier on 30 campaign)

I personally prefer option 2. I don´t want raid gear to be relevant in pvp at all.

You´re getting supertriggered because someone has a different feeling about what you consider an achievement in the game.
If i´d get as pissed every time someone told me pvping was no challenge - oh boy
But then we don´t have bis pve weapons locked behind pvp content so we´d never get into the situation of switching roles in this argument.

So would you mind answering me this question:
Why do you think should bis pvp gear be aquired in the games most incaccessible form of pve content?
Is there a logical argument to support that?

Content difficulty is irrelevant. Accessibility is the issue. PvE content is more difficult to complete due to time requirements.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you said. You seem triggered for no reason.