Would you like Perfect Asylum weapons to drop from Veteran difficulty, rather than only Veteran HM?

Artis

Sounds perfectly fine.

Derra wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

That's your opinion. Apart from the staff, I tend to agree.

You can agree or disagree all you want, they will still do the job just fine.

Not anymore

They just made them 50% better and perfected being the only usable version with that change in pvp. This´ll backfire badly.

Btw i think a good way to incentivize hardmode raiding would be to have trials on HM drop gold jewelry in the following pattern:

Overland: Old 3 craglorn trials.
Normal pledge dungeons: MOL + HOF
DLC dungeons: Asylum

wut? how will that incentivize raiding at all if you can get all jewelry without even having to raid? Yeah, let's give no gear that's cool for vet hm raids. That's what you are trying to do, hopefully zos knows better not to listen to you.

Derra

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

Artis wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

That's your opinion. Apart from the staff, I tend to agree.

You can agree or disagree all you want, they will still do the job just fine.

Not anymore

They just made them 50% better and perfected being the only usable version with that change in pvp. This´ll backfire badly.

Btw i think a good way to incentivize hardmode raiding would be to have trials on HM drop gold jewelry in the following pattern:

Overland: Old 3 craglorn trials.
Normal pledge dungeons: MOL + HOF
DLC dungeons: Asylum

wut? how will that incentivize raiding at all if you can get all jewelry without even having to raid? Yeah, let's give no gear that's cool for vet hm raids. That's what you are trying to do, hopefully zos knows better not to listen to you.

The biggest incentive for people to raid was when they could make money of out raiding by doing content other could not complete and selling the loot.

That´s what this would do.

You seem to have no idea what other people want from the game or consider fun. You just look at what´s possible fun for you and are done with your thought process.
You will never incentivize an activity by making it mandatory to compete. That just makes people dislike it and it´s especially true for HM vet raiding which is probably the most niche activity eso has - even more niche than pvp.

You have to give people a reason to actually want to run it. Not the feeling that they have to.

You won´t get the majority fo people to run content they don´t want to run by locking gear (that can otherwise not be obtained) behind that content. The only thing that achieves is that people dislike the game for that.

Artis

Sounds perfectly fine.

False. Removing bop gear from trials didn't kill raiding. If it was about gold, it would. But no, undaunted plunder gives you about as much gold average, considering sometimes you would loot crap no one would buy anyway.

What this would do is make lots of people farm gold and buy gear instead, however expensive. And a raider would wear the same gear as somebody who didn't even step inside that trial. That's idiotic. Adding good gear that would be interesting for those who can't raid but worse than boe guild that drops in the same raid that only people who put effort can actually have? Sure. Not rewarding effort with something you can only get if you "qualify"? No. Not fair. Not cool.

Also, you are still getting it wrong. No one made anything mandatory. No content is mandatory. You have different types of content to choose from, they give different rewards. But nothing is mandatory to complete.

Derra

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

Artis wrote: »

False. Removing bop gear from trials didn't kill raiding. If it was about gold, it would. But no, undaunted plunder gives you about as much gold average, considering sometimes you would loot crap no one would buy anyway.

What this would do is make lots of people farm gold and buy gear instead, however expensive. And a raider would wear the same gear as somebody who didn't even step inside that trial. That's idiotic. Adding good gear that would be interesting for those who can't raid but worse than boe guild that drops in the same raid that only people who put effort can actually have? Sure. Not rewarding effort with something you can only get if you "qualify"? No. Not fair. Not cool.

Also, you are still getting it wrong. No one made anything mandatory. No content is mandatory. You have different types of content to choose from, they give different rewards. But nothing is mandatory to complete.

If you have a weapon being clearly best in slot over any alternative in the game that content is mandatory if you want to compete.

If that´s a pve (hardcore raiding only) dropped weapon being best in slot for pvp builds it´s a problem in the games gearing design because the content you complete no longer rewards you with the gear needed to compete.

Also i did actively raid HM time runs two to three times a week at the time when bop gear was removed and it was the biggest setback for raiding motivation ever.

Still you haven´t answered my question posed earlier: If you think that´s good design - shouldn´t the reverse logic be that the best in slot pve gear only comes from 30 day top 2% campaign rewards?

Mystrius_Archaion

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

Derra wrote: »

Also i did actively raid HM time runs two to three times a week at the time when bop gear was removed and it was the biggest setback for raiding motivation ever.

Do you mean BoE gear instead of BoP? I'm pretty sure everything in dungeons and trials is now bind on pickup, which definitely sucks for trading and doesn't allow players to get it any other way than doing the specific content.

I'll tell you this...
Anytime I see the option to go with a lesser version of any gear from normal mode, I'll stick with that. It's an especially easy choice when the gear can be upgraded to the same level as the harder content drops, like blue vs purple armor from dungeons.

I'm probably going to have to complete this new trial hard mode once just for the skin, but I will never do hard mode again, and probably will avoid veteran mode as well. I'm not even a fan of requiring that many people, especially at my normal gaming time, anyway so I'll probably avoid the trial entirely aside from the one run for the skin.
I'll likely wait for published strategies online, read up and do it the one time through for what I want. I'm probably good enough to do so since I soloed Shada's Tear in Craglorn and Skyreach Pinnacle and most of the rest of the content there without reading up on anything and never dying on Skyreach Pinnacle and only dying once to each unique boss mechanic in Shada's Tear before I had it figured out.

If they want people who feel they can complete the content to try for an even harder optional version for some gear and then repeat it so more people have a chance and can enjoy it then they don't understand people.
If they want people who aren't confident they can complete the content to attempt the optional harder version also then they're deluded.
If they want people who normally don't do trials at all, for whatever reason, to attempt veteran mode, let alone hard mode, then they're insane and will never understand people.


This is the same problem every game developer has ever had. They try to encourage completing group content by making it rewarding, but they think rewarding means "a feeling of accomplishment" and "phat lootz". The first way they mess that up is that the loot isn't even that tempting to most players who can complete their normal content without it. The second way they mess it up is that human nature is to look for the quick and easy way of doing anything. Nobody actually wants a challenge even if they get the "feeling of accomplishment". They want the feeling of being overpowered against mindless hordes of enemies and then balanced against a boss but still victorious without needing a shower because of sweating too much.

I grew up with the Nintendo Entertainment System and went through most systems and some of the most punishing games ever. I paid my dues in sweat. I stopped enjoying that over a decade ago. I now want the feeling I've enjoyed in some of the best games ever for the very same reason that everyone else enjoyed those games.
Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic gave me fully voiced conversations with choices that affected the long term narrative as much or more so than the short term. That was epic without being challenging.
Goldeneye 007 and Perfect Dark for the Nintendo64 both gave me hilarious "cheats"(since many weren't even an advantage) and interesting mechanics in the weapons without making the gameplay stupid hard.
The Zelda games and later Pokemon games gave me puzzles that engaged me without making me hate them because they were simple enough, like the braille translations in Pokemon Ruby.
There were other games that were just crazy fun because of hilarious physics and achievements, like Bulletstorm.
I even found a MMO that I actually didn't mind not being able to truly adjust difficulty or "cheat" in because it wasn't punishing. That MMO actually encouraged socializing because group content was the place to get the best rewards but that content was easier than soloing because of the group buffs and forgiving nature of the mechanics of fights. That was City of Heroes. It had tanks and healer and dps and a role called "controllers" but not one of those roles was ever necessary or trivial. They all could solo and help the group.
I loved the single player Elder Scrolls games for the huge worlds to explore and interesting sites and ability to build my own spaces with complete freedom and customize the difficulty to my own tastes. I didn't feel like it was an insane hard grind or too easy or too difficult. I actually had a choice. I didn't even have to mod that much if I didn't feel like it but I did end up modding more than playing because building with unlimited freedom in pieces and parts and space is awesome.

I do love the huge world of ESO and the graphic style and the options for themes of skills and costumes and mounts, but I do think they have a lot to learn with story and how to encourage socializing and group play.
They try too hard to push grouping/socializing as a necessity which actually drives people away from that. It's like trying to get politicians from different parties to agree to reduce taxes when they each still want more funds to their own interests. It's just not in their nature.

Derra

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

Yeah i meant boe.

Can anyone actually explain to me what the benefit for having perfect weapons only drop from vet HM is?
Apart from giving players that already have an advantage an even bigger one - because i can´t see that as a benefit.

Maulkin

Other

Derra wrote: »

Yeah i meant boe.

Can anyone actually explain to me what the benefit for having perfect weapons only drop from vet HM is?
Apart from giving players that already have an advantage an even bigger one - because i can´t see that as a benefit.

An incentive to try Hard Mode, I guess? Or to reduce the existence Perfect Weapons in PvP?

Derra

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

Maulkin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yeah i meant boe.

Can anyone actually explain to me what the benefit for having perfect weapons only drop from vet HM is?
Apart from giving players that already have an advantage an even bigger one - because i can´t see that as a benefit.

An incentive to try Hard Mode, I guess? Or to reduce the existence Perfect Weapons in PvP?

Reducing the number of perfect weapons (not eliminating them in pvp) falls under the gearing advantage for already superior players.

Incentive to try hard mode - well wasn´t the previous reward enough?
Also when at the moment most ppl already can´t realisticly complete vet without hardmode - does hardmode need incentive?
Aren´t there possibly ways to incentizise hardmode without creating the previously discussed gearing problematics?

Maulkin

Other

Derra wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yeah i meant boe.

Can anyone actually explain to me what the benefit for having perfect weapons only drop from vet HM is?
Apart from giving players that already have an advantage an even bigger one - because i can´t see that as a benefit.

An incentive to try Hard Mode, I guess? Or to reduce the existence Perfect Weapons in PvP?

Reducing the number of perfect weapons (not eliminating them in pvp) falls under the gearing advantage for already superior players.

Incentive to try hard mode - well wasn´t the previous reward enough?
Also when at the moment most ppl already can´t realisticly complete vet without hardmode - does hardmode need incentive?
Aren´t there possibly ways to incentizise hardmode without creating the previously discussed gearing problematics?

Does hard mode need incentive?
Yes, every content needs an incentive in my opinion and hard mode even more so. For example doing vet dailies in hard mode gets you 2 keys instead of 1 (although using the work "hard" is an exaggeration where dailies are concerned). It's not a bad design to reward people more for more effort or more skill. Currently Vet mode, unless you can do hard mode, has no incentive because you get the same drop as Normal mode, which is a problem.

Are there other ways to incentivise?
Yeah, sure. My suggestion was to include a drop chance for gold weapons in the hard mode which is worth like 50k in mats, on top of the guaranteed chance for Perfect Weapons. That's a huge incentive if you have the skills to run it. I suggested adding a chance for Perfect weapons in simple Vet mode, so you either pull a normal or a perfect weapon when you kill the boss. So you have a chance of better reward than running Normal mode and thus an incentive.

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with what they've done, I'm just trying to rationalise it.

Derra

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

Maulkin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yeah i meant boe.

Can anyone actually explain to me what the benefit for having perfect weapons only drop from vet HM is?
Apart from giving players that already have an advantage an even bigger one - because i can´t see that as a benefit.

An incentive to try Hard Mode, I guess? Or to reduce the existence Perfect Weapons in PvP?

Reducing the number of perfect weapons (not eliminating them in pvp) falls under the gearing advantage for already superior players.

Incentive to try hard mode - well wasn´t the previous reward enough?
Also when at the moment most ppl already can´t realisticly complete vet without hardmode - does hardmode need incentive?
Aren´t there possibly ways to incentizise hardmode without creating the previously discussed gearing problematics?

Does hard mode need incentive?
Yes, every content needs an incentive in my opinion and hard mode even more so. For example doing vet dailies in hard mode gets you 2 keys instead of 1 (although using the work "hard" is an exaggeration where dailies are concerned). It's not a bad design to reward people more for more effort or more skill. Currently Vet mode, unless you can do hard mode, has no incentive because you get the same drop as Normal mode, which is a problem.

Are there other ways to incentivise?
Yeah, sure. My suggestion was to include a drop chance for gold weapons in the hard mode which is worth like 50k in mats, on top of the guaranteed chance for Perfect Weapons. That's a huge incentive if you have the skills to run it. I suggested adding a chance for Perfect weapons in simple Vet mode, so you either pull a normal or a perfect weapon when you kill the boss. So you have a chance of better reward than running Normal mode and thus an incentive.

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with what they've done, I'm just trying to rationalise it.

More loot instead of better loot is something i could entirely get behind for HM.

Better loot is asinine if the difference is as significant as with these weapons. Hey you´re not good enough to compete therefor you will also not get the gear needed to compete.

Why does hardmode need more incentive than it previously had?

As for the above - "does hm need incentive" was in the context that most players don´t even complete veteran. What use is the golden carrot on a stick for players that are lacking the arms to grab it.

I can analyse why it´s done aswell. I don´t think it´s rational to have loot hidden behind content that maybe 10% of your game population can aquire and out of that 10% maybe 10% want to actually play that content.

Woeler

Perfect Asylum weapons should sometimes drop from Veteran non-HM

I would like to see it like this:

Normal has a chance to drop imperfect asylum weapons.
Veteran has a guaranteed imperfect drop, with a small chance to drop a perfect one.
Veteran hardmode has a guaranteed drop of a perfect weapon.

Derra

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

Woeler wrote: »

I would like to see it like this:

Normal has a chance to drop imperfect asylum weapons.
Veteran has a guaranteed imperfect drop, with a small chance to drop a perfect one.
Veteran hardmode has a guaranteed drop of a perfect weapon.

Sounds like a quite reasonable approach.

Artis

Sounds perfectly fine.

Derra wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

False. Removing bop gear from trials didn't kill raiding. If it was about gold, it would. But no, undaunted plunder gives you about as much gold average, considering sometimes you would loot crap no one would buy anyway.

What this would do is make lots of people farm gold and buy gear instead, however expensive. And a raider would wear the same gear as somebody who didn't even step inside that trial. That's idiotic. Adding good gear that would be interesting for those who can't raid but worse than boe guild that drops in the same raid that only people who put effort can actually have? Sure. Not rewarding effort with something you can only get if you "qualify"? No. Not fair. Not cool.

Also, you are still getting it wrong. No one made anything mandatory. No content is mandatory. You have different types of content to choose from, they give different rewards. But nothing is mandatory to complete.

If you have a weapon being clearly best in slot over any alternative in the game that content is mandatory if you want to compete.

If that´s a pve (hardcore raiding only) dropped weapon being best in slot for pvp builds it´s a problem in the games gearing design because the content you complete no longer rewards you with the gear needed to compete.

Also i did actively raid HM time runs two to three times a week at the time when bop gear was removed and it was the biggest setback for raiding motivation ever.

Still you haven´t answered my question posed earlier: If you think that´s good design - shouldn´t the reverse logic be that the best in slot pve gear only comes from 30 day top 2% campaign rewards?

Nope, you are the one making it seem mandatory. It's your personal problem and not an objective reality. You can compete without a better weapon, or if you want it - do the legwork like the other guy did. Also, define "clearly best". By how much should it better that you don't feel it's mandatory to have it? Or are you saying that higher effort and completing harder content shouldn't be rewarded more than lower effort?

No, it's not a problem at all. Then only hardcore pvers will have it. Some of them pvp? Ok, doesn't matter since there's no personal rank or anything. And even if there was it wouldn't be a problem. Everyone is in the same conditions. Want to be top? Put effort in like the other guy who got that weapon did. If he does both hardcore PvE and PvP on a level that his skill is as yours while you have far greater pvp experience since he spends most of his time pveing and only him having a perfect weapon tips the scales - then he deserves what he gets. Do what he does and get that weapon, too.

That's very different, because getting something from PvE is guaranteed if you qualify. Top 2% of a campaign is a dynamic number, not to mention that other players are actively preventing you from getting there, which is not the case in pve where other players are actively helping you (your group) and you fight against a tested and balanced enemy (not like in pvp where technically you can just be zerged down if for example at the times you play you are always outnumbered). Now, giving them as a rare drop of rewards of the worthy would be better taking all this into account. However, those are easy to get, so it's a bad idea.

Derra wrote: »

Yeah i meant boe.

Can anyone actually explain to me what the benefit for having perfect weapons only drop from vet HM is?
Apart from giving players that already have an advantage an even bigger one - because i can´t see that as a benefit.

What advantage? If you compete for scores you do vet HM anyway. If you don't compete, you don't care about that advantage since you don't compete. And you only need that many of those weapons per 12man group anyway.


And no, not a reasonable approach at all. Better loot for hardmode. That's the only way. Otherwise people won't have real reason to run it. They can get the same loot just by running easier content multiple times. It is already dumb enough that people who farm normal trials get everything your vet trial runner gets without even killing 1 mob there. Except for jewelry, which give 90 magicka over purple jewelry so who cares. Minor Slayer is still Minor Slayer. Or take, say, vet mazzatun where chapters follow the same approach and there's small chance to get them without hm. As a result you still can end up in a group with a player who can't do it and never done it before. He never really had to. He can get everything functional without it.

And then you end up in a situation where you want to have fun and run a trial, but people are just grinding normals and no one really wants to go to vet hm trials or even DLC dungeons. Cause why would they? It won't make them any stronger.